AoS 2 - Daughters of Khaine Discussion

[PraetorDragoon]

37 minutes ago, Jacek said:

Depends on your build.

If you take avatar on foot - no need for circlet (as it rerolls 1s, not unmodified 1s - that is my understanding so far) so if you are near avatar on foot (+1 to prayer rolls) you just succeed on 2+ and on 1 you take no dmg. Then you can replace circlet with something else.

Rerolls happen before any modifiers have been applied, so a reroll 1s is the same as rerolls unmodified 1s, per the core rules.

[Gokken]

I am wondering if cauldrens are worth it now at all if they cannot fight, over just two hags. 

11 attacks with damage 1 just does very litle for me, and most of my army is useally dead by turn 3.

Also is the new endless spell heart of fury worth it now if it counts as a known prayer and takes one attempt? 

Edited March 26, 2021 by Gokken

[Jacek]

35 minutes ago, Gokken said:

I am wondering if cauldrens are worth it now at all if they cannot fight, over just two hags. 

11 attacks with damage 1 just does very litle for me, and most of my army is useally dead by turn 3.

Also is the new endless spell heart of fury worth it now if it counts as a known prayer and takes one attempt? 

Heart of Fury is not a prayer. It is invocation. So you can try to summon it in addition to any prayers you use.

I played with it few times and also against it. For 80 points in my opinion it is too random. You can't take it out if you want to move it somewhere else (totally random roll at the end of each battle round) and even if it dissapear you can still fail to resummon it.

So in short you can end up in situations:

- It dissapears and you fail to resummon it

- You need to move army out of it's bubble but it did not dissapear so you can't summon it anywhere else

That is only my opinion, feel free to play with it because if it kicks in with good rolls it is awesome (I was unlucky and experienced both situations I listed above)

[Gokken]

1 minute ago, Jacek said:

Heart of Fury is not a prayer. It is invocation. So you can try to summon it in addition to any prayers you use.

I played with it few times and also against it. For 80 points in my opinion it is too random. You can't take it out if you want to move it somewhere else (totally random roll at the end of each battle round) and even if it dissapear you can still fail to resummon it.

So in short you can end up in situations:

- It dissapears and you fail to resummon it

- You need to move army out of it's bubble but it did not dissapear so you can't summon it anywhere else

That is only my opinion, feel free to play with it because if it kicks in with good rolls it is awesome (I was unlucky and experienced both situations I listed above)

Ah thanks Jacek,

I have the same experience I played 5 games with the new book I got it off 3 times, once was against glutons though so that was nice.

I would call it a 6/10 its not bad nor it is really good and against certain things its a life saver, but it wont move and I fail 3+ all the time basicly and its 80 POINTS!

Last night i failed both my witch brews on a 4+ and got table before I had my turn too from a shooting list.

I feel abit the daughters became a slotmachine where you gamble for random buffs.

[Jacek]

4 hours ago, Gokken said:

Ah thanks Jacek,

I have the same experience I played 5 games with the new book I got it off 3 times, once was against glutons though so that was nice.

I would call it a 6/10 its not bad nor it is really good and against certain things its a life saver, but it wont move and I fail 3+ all the time basicly and its 80 POINTS!

Last night i failed both my witch brews on a 4+ and got table before I had my turn too from a shooting list.

I feel abit the daughters became a slotmachine where you gamble for random buffs.

That is why I prefer bloodwrack viper, in most games it kills more than it is worth (basically it does not return its points if you fail to cast it)

[Chumphammer]

Malarion is in the table of contents for Broken Realms Teclis 

[Drillz]

can you run a Bloodwrack Shrine in the Vyperic Guard since it has the bloodwrack Medusa keywords?

[Jacek]

4 minutes ago, Drillz said:

can you run a Bloodwrack Shrine in the Vyperic Guard since it has the bloodwrack Medusa keywords?

No, keywords are in bold.

So you can run it in Scathcoven but not in Vyperic Guard.

[Mcprowlington]

So has anyone pointed out that the original tome very specifically said each prayer can only be attempted once per turn

But now it says each prayer can only be "chanted" once per turn? 

 

Should we just assume its the same thing or is it possible we can take multiples for second chances? 

I can't imagine why they would muddy something that was so clear previously. I'm thinking bits of the book were written for aos 3rd edition and it'll have a prayer system where the word "chant" has a specific defined meaning. 

Edited March 27, 2021 by Mcprowlington

[Mutton]

23 hours ago, Gokken said:

Ah thanks Jacek,

I have the same experience I played 5 games with the new book I got it off 3 times, once was against glutons though so that was nice.

I would call it a 6/10 its not bad nor it is really good and against certain things its a life saver, but it wont move and I fail 3+ all the time basicly and its 80 POINTS!

Last night i failed both my witch brews on a 4+ and got table before I had my turn too from a shooting list.

I feel abit the daughters became a slotmachine where you gamble for random buffs.

Yeah, as I've said before, it's just too random and costly. If it reduced the damage of ALL sources (magic, abilities, etc.) it would be great. But it doesn't. And 80 points is way too much. Warp Lightning Vortex is 80 points and is arguably the best endless spell in the game.

I'd consider Heart if it was...50 points? Even then, it'd be sharing a slot for an extra CP.

[Charleston]

Hi guys! 
I yesterday bought my first DoK models and am currently eager to start this awesome hobby project! So far I have the Shadow and Pain Box as well as a SC! Box around. I love the book and the faction, but there is one thing I can´t really decide:  How are the Altars to play? Are the ones with the Avatar on top both buffers? Is the Damage worth pumping them with Prayers to Activate the Avatar and the Rune of Kahine? And how about the Bloodwreck Medusa on Shrine? Althrough she lacks the cauldron she looks like a usefull power up over the footslogging one.

[Chumphammer]

3 hours ago, Charleston said:

Hi guys! 
I yesterday bought my first DoK models and am currently eager to start this awesome hobby project! So far I have the Shadow and Pain Box as well as a SC! Box around. I love the book and the faction, but there is one thing I can´t really decide:  How are the Altars to play? Are the ones with the Avatar on top both buffers? Is the Damage worth pumping them with Prayers to Activate the Avatar and the Rune of Kahine? And how about the Bloodwreck Medusa on Shrine? Althrough she lacks the cauldron she looks like a usefull power up over the footslogging one.

Welcome to the sisterhood (though most are men lol)

 

Cauldrons are solid backbones of your army. +1 as and +1ld are solid to have. The prayer they can have are really useful also

Slaughter Queens (SQ) on cauldron used to be a solid combat unit also and solo avatars had just become a great support tool

However, with the recent faq both have taken a big hit. Out of hagg nar nar I doubt you will see foot avatars. 

Cauldrons are still useful for the buffs and prayers, you just can't rely on having that avatar shooting/combat till turn 3

[mojojojo101]

I'm about to upgrade my DoK to 2k points and was thinking of running a list looking something like this:

Allegiance: Daughters of Khaine
- Temple: Khelt Nar

Leaders
Bloodwrack Shrine (160)
- General
- Command Trait: The Circling Flock
- Artefact: Shadow Stone
- Lore of Shadows: The Withering
Morathi-Khaine (210)
- Lore of Shadows: Mindrazor
The Shadow Queen (390)
Melusai Ironscale (110)
- Artefact: Gaisa's Falx

Battleline
5 x Blood Sisters (130)
5 x Blood Sisters (130)
5 x Blood Sisters (130)
10 x Blood Stalkers (280)
10 x Blood Stalkers (280)

Battalions
Scathcoven (140)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Bloodwrack Viper (40)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 107
 

General strategy would be to use the 2 units of Stalkers as the main source of damage, I considered one single unit of 20 but I'm not sure if that would feel a little unwieldy to use, the Shadow Queen fired up the board to deal with whatever is the enemy's biggest threat and the 3 min units of Sisters to slow down whatever the enemy sends my way / eliminate smaller units / screens.

 

Just wanted to check with the more knowledgeable players around these parts that I'm not doing something particularly stupid.

 

Thanks.

[Chumphammer]

51 minutes ago, mojojojo101 said:

I'm about to upgrade my DoK to 2k points and was thinking of running a list looking something like this:

Allegiance: Daughters of Khaine
- Temple: Khelt Nar

Leaders
Bloodwrack Shrine (160)
- General
- Command Trait: The Circling Flock
- Artefact: Shadow Stone
- Lore of Shadows: The Withering
Morathi-Khaine (210)
- Lore of Shadows: Mindrazor
The Shadow Queen (390)
Melusai Ironscale (110)
- Artefact: Gaisa's Falx

Battleline
5 x Blood Sisters (130)
5 x Blood Sisters (130)
5 x Blood Sisters (130)
10 x Blood Stalkers (280)
10 x Blood Stalkers (280)

Battalions
Scathcoven (140)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Bloodwrack Viper (40)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 107
 

General strategy would be to use the 2 units of Stalkers as the main source of damage, I considered one single unit of 20 but I'm not sure if that would feel a little unwieldy to use, the Shadow Queen fired up the board to deal with whatever is the enemy's biggest threat and the 3 min units of Sisters to slow down whatever the enemy sends my way / eliminate smaller units / screens.

 

Just wanted to check with the more knowledgeable players around these parts that I'm not doing something particularly stupid.

 

Thanks.

With 3 units of 5 sisters I am not sure the Ironscale is worth it. Can get a unit of shadowstalkers in swap

id do 15 and 5 for stalkers to make more effect of Morathi ability if you dont want to go for a big chunk of 20

[mojojojo101]

1 hour ago, Chumphammer said:

With 3 units of 5 sisters I am not sure the Ironscale is worth it. Can get a unit of shadowstalkers in swap

id do 15 and 5 for stalkers to make more effect of Morathi ability if you dont want to go for a big chunk of 20

Yeh, I thought the Ironscale was may be a bit of a waste, the Shadowstalkers seem like a bteer option.

I think this will be my last purchase for a while so I'll pick up Shadowstalkers and maybe another box of Sisters to give a bit of flexibility. I really like this DoK book, even using just snakes it feels like there is so many options on how to write lists.

Edited April 1, 2021 by mojojojo101

[Chumphammer]

52 minutes ago, mojojojo101 said:

Yeh, I thought the Ironscale was may be a bit of a waste, the Shadowstalkers seem like a bteer option.

I think this will be my last purchase for a while so I'll pick up Shadowstalkers and maybe another box of Sisters to give a bit of flexibility. I really like this DoK book, even using just snakes it feels like there is so many options on how to write lists.

A unit of Shadowstalkers are well worth it. With the Khinari being limited to when they drop (bad the summoned ones from Khelt Nar) Shadowstalkers can be a great held back unit to jump around objs. I tend to use their normal movement and surpise people with the teleport as they forget even if you tell them lol  

[frostfire]

I saw some list went really heavy on the bow snakes earlier in this thread. Is this kind of list doing well?

[Mark Williams]

12 hours ago, frostfire said:

I saw some list went really heavy on the bow snakes earlier in this thread. Is this kind of list doing well?

Yes, I've played against a snake shooting list a few times now. They feel a bit like playing against Anvils of Heldenhammer (shootcast) list with Longstrike Raptors, except they have generally better range, better resilience, and the rest of their army is stronger in combat. It's top tier material.

[Gokken]

On 4/5/2021 at 3:21 PM, frostfire said:

I saw some list went really heavy on the bow snakes earlier in this thread. Is this kind of list doing well?

Yes after the nerf to witchbrew, witches and cauldrens it is meta with shooting snakes and Morathi either as a vyperic guard. 

Outside of shooting snakes and Morathi, there is not much else that is viable.

[Chumphammer]

17 hours ago, Gokken said:

Yes after the nerf to witchbrew, witches and cauldrens it is meta with shooting snakes and Morathi either as a vyperic guard. 

Outside of shooting snakes and Morathi, there is not much else that is viable.

errm...Thats not true

Avatars are still awesome in HaggNar

Blood Sisters still pack a huge punch

Khainite Shadowstalkers are a very versatile unit for 100pts

Khinari can be good for 80pts for 5, you can do some intersting combos with them.

Sisters of Slaughter can be great in the faction with -1 rend on charge. Give them MR and Slaughter Troupe and you have some very effective cycle charge sisters  

Do you not need Morathi-Khaine if you dont want to take her. You also dont need to go all in on Stalkers. 

I dont run Morathi and I only have 2x5 Stalkers and I play competitive 

 

Edited April 7, 2021 by Chumphammer

[Gokken]

8 minutes ago, Chumphammer said:

errm...Thats not true

Avatars are still awesome in HaggNar

Blood Sisters still pack a huge punch

Khainite Shadowstalkers are a very versatile unit for 100pts

Khinari can be good for 80pts for 5, you can do some intersting combos with them.

Sisters of Slaughter can be great in the faction with -1 rend on charge. Give them MR and Slaughter Troupe and you have some very effective cycle charge sisters  

Do you not need Morathi-Khaine if you dont want to take her. You also dont need to go all in on Stalkers. 

I dont run Morathi and I only have 2x5 Stalkers and I play competitive 

 

Avatars work in HaggNar I would not say they are awesome, I don't see many lists having two or three of them.

Bloodsisters pack a punch sure, but again I see the often used as a 5 man screens or a group of 10 and stalkers doing the heavy lifting with Morathi. Havent seen many with 20+ bloodsisters.

Shadowstalkers and Khinarai are good for mobility sure, and I have seen a few setups with 10 lifetakers in a cauldren guard.  But they are movement supplement to snakes and morathi, they are not the main doers of the army, they move to something after enemies where shot of it. 

Sisters of Slaughter are nice, ill give you that, I dont like them personaly but they are good, but I havent seen a lot of Draichy ganeth sisters though. Have seen tons of stalkers, with teleporting and double shoot.

You don't need to have her and tons of stalkers, its just the better easier option. 

I would still say 10 is somewhat many, I run a cauldren guard with 0 shooting outside of my cauldren and bloodwracks. It is a fun build, but not as effective as a shooting.

[DSB]

Hey, so I'm recently getting back into DoK and have a fairly decent lot going right now: 30 dagger witches, 10 Melee snakes, 10 bow snakes, and then Hag, SQ, Medusa, and Avatar on foot and I'm currently working on making a cauldron from the old metal cauldron, so I'll have that, too. I've also got a shadow and pain half to build yet, and frankly I'm not sure how to build it yet. I don't know if I want to keep an even split or if I should do 20 of something, in terms of the snakes. Hell, I'm not even sure which harpy to build, either. I figured this would be the best place to ask. I will be getting Morathi eventually if only because frankly she's my favorite AoS character at this point, but I told myself I would hold off until I had a solid foundation and started getting some games in again first.

[Eternalis]

On 4/7/2021 at 5:29 PM, Chumphammer said:

Sisters of Slaughter can be great in the faction with -1 rend on charge. Give them MR and Slaughter Troupe and you have some very effective cycle charge sisters  

I kinda agree but charging with SoS will prevent you to use your 6" pile in to strike before your opponent or once he activated all his units.
Charging with SoS is "okay", but it removes a lot of their shenanigans potential.Better give MR to your Witches, they will have more impact because they already deal more wounds than SoS.

SoS are for me, and it pains me to admit it (as I own 40 of them), the worst unit we have right now. They feel out of place, even in their own sub-faction.  They are expensive (12pts for 1 wound), they  lack some punch, they don't want to charge while we NEED to charge for MR and Draichi Ganeth. Better go witch Witches.

[Charleston]

Okay, I think I have my first go-to-list that I attempt to build for. It is quite a mixed Hagg Narr List from the Models I have available right now:
 

Spoiler

Allegiance: Daughters of Khaine
- Temple: Hagg Nar

Leaders
Bloodwrack Medusa (100) Magic Defense and Source of Mindrazor
- Lore of Shadows: Mindrazor
Hag Queen (90) Shall allow to move an Avatar turn 1. 
Slaughter Queen on Cauldron of Blood (270) Shall work as support with the Cauldron but also after turn 2 once the Avatar is awoken she shall pray for the rune and then rush into the enemy blending as much as possible. 
- Prayer: Catechism of Murder
Melusai Ironscale (110) Required as general to make my Snake Ladies work as battleline. 
- General
- Command Trait: Devoted Disciples
- Artefact: The Ulfuri

Battleline
30 x Witch Aelves (300) The blending Party. 
- Pairs of Sacrificial Knives
5 x Blood Stalkers (140) I guess they work fine on backfield objectives and can take their chance at finishing of single models.
10 x Blood Sisters (260) 

Units
10 x Doomfire Warlocks (240) I see some potential here for models that can run for objectives in the late game. 
5 x Khinerai Lifetakers (80) The Lifetakers are supposed to work as turn 1 blender. With 14" and Mindrazor on them I see potential to hurt something as early as turn 1 with their 11 -2 Rend D3 attacks. 

Behemoths
Avatar of Khaine (130) I like thoose dudes. They make prayers more reliable and also hit quite hard. Only downside is the requirement of a priest to move one of them turn 1. 
Avatar of Khaine (130)

Battalions
Scathcoven (140) +1 CP, +1 Artifact and Bravery immunity for Khinerai and Melusai

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 133

As I still have to assemble the Shrine and the Meusai I am still concidering how to build them. Any advice for the list?

[Chumphammer]

On 4/10/2021 at 9:21 AM, Eternalis said:

I kinda agree but charging with SoS will prevent you to use your 6" pile in to strike before your opponent or once he activated all his units.
Charging with SoS is "okay", but it removes a lot of their shenanigans potential.Better give MR to your Witches, they will have more impact because they already deal more wounds than SoS.

SoS are for me, and it pains me to admit it (as I own 40 of them), the worst unit we have right now. They feel out of place, even in their own sub-faction.  They are expensive (12pts for 1 wound), they  lack some punch, they don't want to charge while we NEED to charge for MR and Draichi Ganeth. Better go witch Witches.

Its one of those things where you have 2 units. 1 unit you buff with Mindrazor/witchbrew/catachism if you can and thats the one you charge with. The 2nd unit is the one you use the 6" pile in with.

Its a shame they are 360 for 30 now. I used to run 30 when I could but since new book they have been dropped. 

SOS can shine in getting amongst the enemy. Like MSU units using retreat and flee then 6" pile or charge to tie up/kill support peices while the heavy hitters of the army kill other stuff, or you use more msu units to hold obj 

 

 

On 4/7/2021 at 8:49 AM, Gokken said:

Avatars work in HaggNar I would not say they are awesome, I don't see many lists having two or three of them.

Bloodsisters pack a punch sure, but again I see the often used as a 5 man screens or a group of 10 and stalkers doing the heavy lifting with Morathi. Havent seen many with 20+ bloodsisters.

Shadowstalkers and Khinarai are good for mobility sure, and I have seen a few setups with 10 lifetakers in a cauldren guard.  But they are movement supplement to snakes and morathi, they are not the main doers of the army, they move to something after enemies where shot of it. 

Sisters of Slaughter are nice, ill give you that, I dont like them personaly but they are good, but I havent seen a lot of Draichy ganeth sisters though. Have seen tons of stalkers, with teleporting and double shoot.

You don't need to have her and tons of stalkers, its just the better easier option. 

I would still say 10 is somewhat many, I run a cauldren guard with 0 shooting outside of my cauldren and bloodwracks. It is a fun build, but not as effective as a shooting.

I have 2 avatars on foot plus cauldron. 6 x 3+/3+ shooting attacks and 4x3+/3+/-2/3 is pretty damn hitty vs armies where our multiple zero to one rend attacks dont do much of an impact.

Bloodsister I use 15. losing the 20 discount sucked but I can still do work with 15. 2 x 10 can work also. Tbh I dont think i would use them without haggnar/Scathcoven. that immune to battleshock is pretty huge for 2W snakes when they have a 4+/5++ (6vsMW) and usually -1D from the heart.

you can do a cheeky 10 Khinari lifetakers behind your battleline for 160pts. try mindrazor on them everyturn and if you can get it off thats a decent charging unit at Rend 2 3D each and its not costing you a lot if it doesnt work. I wish Khinari were not 40mm bases.

Shadow Stalkerss value is 1: being able to get in the way of a big charge if needed, 2: sneaky obj grabbing. nowheres safe. 3: pressure on low armour support heroes. like they are 100pts and a steal at that. You dont really care much about the unit its the champion that you are there for, with its D3 wound attacks.

i have really screwed peoples charges before into the heart of my army but just dropping that 100pt unit in a line.

I personally missed having shooting in my DOK. not being able to kill screens/chaff can be a pain in the ass, plus dealing with things like warlock enginners (buffing Stormfriends)

In my list, I have 2 x 5 Stalkers to snipe at support heroes, help reduce screens or whittle down enermy shooting. I then also have the 3 avatars shooting as well as a few shots from the stalker in Morgweths squad. It gives me enough to do what I need so I can get my combat stuff in