AoS 2 - Daughters of Khaine Discussion

[Ggom]

Agree with @Overread and @JackStreicher; I would like the khinerai to become more elite - better save or better damage or both. I don’t want them to drop in points or get smaller bases because we already have so many light infantry options, plus I dont want to paint even more of them.

But you know what would sweeter? A khinerai general mmmmmm

Now that I’m in full on wishlisting mode... Give us one more kit for variety. Cavary would be wonderful - eg. improved warlock sculpts. @Ravenborn once commented on the current doomfire warlock hands looking palsied, and I have to agree they are distractingly hueg.

Edited December 11, 2020 by Ggom

[Overread]

I think the real question is do Khinerai remain as they are and compete with Shadowstalkers for a similar role; or do Khinerai change at their core concept and adapt to a new or adjusted role. For example the cavalry style role I noted above; shifting them from a stealth strike unit into a harder hitting fast unit. Something that sits faster than a witch aelf but which is less versatile (and perhaps cheaper) than the warlocks. 

Which is a gap the range has right now; though I'd still welcome seeing witch aelves mounted on warbeasts. 

[Chumphammer]

Played my first game on TTS the other day with the last DOK list i posted
Was vs COS on focal points

It went very wellbeing 25vs10 and tabled his army with the bulk of mine intact

Morathi works very well. Issue I had was never getting to use her command ability as stuff died to fast (boo hoo) and I never got to use the +1 on the snakes.

looking forward to getting some more games in

 

[swarmofseals]

@Chumphammer what server are you using to find games?

[InSaint]

Took part in a local tournament with 12 players, 5 rounds over 2 days and came in 3rd place! My 2 losses are against the top 2 players (IDK and Khorne),  both fantastic players with strong list. Below is a quick summary and my experience against various armies.

Army List

• Morathi-Khaine (Mindrazor)
• Shadow Queen
• Hag Queen on Cauldron of Blood (General w Blessing of Khaine, Blood Sigil – Catechism of Murder)
• 30/10 Witches w Bucklers
• 10 Sisters of Slaughters w Daggers
• 10 Melusai Bloodstalkers 
• 5 Khinerai Heartrenders
• 5 Doomfire Warlocks
• 1 Additional Command Point

Total Conquest – WON vs Lumineth Realm lords

Teclis, Scinari Cathallar, 20/10 Sentinels, 20/10 Wardens, 5 Dawnriders

Keeping the Cauldron General behind out of full range from the Sentinels is critical as Hagg Narr 5+ soaked up plenty of Mortal Wounds. Sniping off Scinari is also important to lower their bravery when they use their Aether Quartz.

Blood Stalkers were trading shots with the Sentinels and Shadow Queen was sent to hunt Teclis. As soon as Morathi-Khaine managed to unbind Teclis 5+ ignore wounds aura, I went on the offensive and their army start to crumble apart and running away due to low bravery which allowed me to secure objectives more easily.

Shifting Objectives – LOST vs Khorne

Archaon, Be’Lakor, Bloodthrister of Insensate Rage, 3 Slaughter Priests, Chaos Warshrine, 3x10 Bloodreavers

30 Hagg Nar witches with 5+ re-rollable FNP took on the full onslaught of Archaon and Bloodthrister BOTH attacking TWICE on T1. I managed to clear his Bloodreavers with Bloodstalkers and got Morathi-Khaine to tarpit Archaeon. Shadow Queen was shut down by Be’Lakor.

The Bloodthrister went on to clear out my Bloodstalkers and Cauldron and I could not keep up with Khorne’s damage output. The 3 priests were spewing out D6 MWs and I was completely tabled by T4.

Focal Point – WON vs Seraphon

Lord Kroak, Saurus Astrolith Bearer, Skink Priest, 2 Bastiladon, 6 Salamanders, 4x10 Skinks

40 Hagg Nar witches was shot down on T1 with his Bastiladon and Salamanders! I managed to clear out his Salamanders and Bastiladon with Shadow Queen and Blood Stalkers over the next 2 turns. Eventually he was left with Lord Kroak and Skinks which my Blood Stalkers could methodically clear out for my Khinerai and Doomfires to secure objectives.

Forcing the Hand – LOST vs Idoneth Deepkin

Akhelian King, Isharann Soulscryver, 1x Leviadon, 2x Allopexes, 2x3 Ishlaen Guard, 3/3/6 Morrsarr Guard

I took the first turn to play objectives with 30 Witches but his Allopexes prevent by Witches from further piling in to do more damage and I was relying on my 6s save MW to bypass his 2+ saves to deal sufficient damage.

Poor positioning cost me the game as he managed to deepstrike his 6 Morrsarr and tag my General Cauldron. He got the double turn and killed my General on T2 followed by my Blood Stalkers. With lower mobility and no more 5+ FNP/Witchbrew and Prayers, my army started to crumble. I was unable to cap objectives and was tabled by T4.

The Blades Edge – WON vs Ossiarch Bonereapers

Katakros, Mortisan Soulmason, 2x Mortek Crawler, 3x10 Mortek Guard, 2 Morghast Harbingers, 6 Necropolis Stalkers

I rolled Ulgu to hide most of my armies behind/within terrains and gave him the 1^st turn. With limited shooting targets, he moved his army forward and I got 30 Witches with 5+ FNP to tie up the 6 Stalkers and 10 Mortek Guards, it was a slow grind fest on objectives. Shadow Queen was again shut down by massive debuffs.

My break came with a double turn on 2B/3A which allowed me to charge the Shadow Queen into Katakros and both Crawlers, effectively shutting them down. The Bloodstalkers were also clearing out Motrek Guards and by end T4 he conceded.

Summary

• 10 Bloodstalkers with the potential to fire twice is an excellent hammer compliment to the largely combat-oriented army
• Hagg Nar is still the most competitive temple, without the 5+ FNP there is absolutely no way to survive any super tuned list
• Blob of 30 Witches is increasingly getting outclassed in the current meta and constantly vying for buffs with Shadow Queen which arguably might be a better anvil/hammer herself, but they still make for a good anvil to tarpit multiple units and crowd out objectives with Blessing of Khaine activated
• If you are going to put the Shadow Queen into combat and 100% sure she will be taking 3 damage, use Morathi-Khaine as a secondary tarpit to lock up enemy hammer units
• The Shadow Queen requires Witchbrew and Catechism or Murder to becomes a reliable hammer, a secondary Hag Queen will be useful for this
• Doomfires Warlocks have no place in competitively play

[5kaven5lave]

What ho chaps. Any thoughts on my take on the snake list much appreciated, thinking buffed mobile shooting to back up a snakey blender with little to no battleshock issues and some cheeky deepstrike shenanigans. Not sure if the prayers / spells are on point tbh but any feedback would be ace.

Allegiance: Daughters of Khaine
- Temple: Zainthar Kai
Bloodwrack Medusa (140)
- General
- Command Trait: Curse of the Bloody-Handed  
- Artefact: Shadow Stone  
- Lore of Shadows: Mindrazor
Hag Queen (100)
- Artefact: Thousand and One Dark Blessings  
- Prayer: Catechism of Murder
Slaughter Queen on Cauldron of Blood (330)
- Artefact: Hagbrew  
- Prayer: Blessing of Khaine
10 x Blood Sisters (280)
10 x Blood Sisters (280)
20 x Sisters of Slaughter (240)
- Barbed Whips and Sacrificial Knives
10 x Blood Stalkers (280)
5 x Khinerai Heartrenders (90)
5 x Khinerai Heartrenders (90)
Scathcoven (140)

Total: 1970 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 114
 

Edited December 14, 2020 by 5kaven5lave
Edit: Oops, missed the Ironscale, fixing it now...

[Graywater]

9 minutes ago, 5kaven5lave said:

What ho chaps. Any thoughts on my take on the snake list much appreciated, thinking buffed mobile shooting to back up a snakey blender with little to no battleshock issues and some cheeky deepstrike shenanigans. Not sure if the prayers / spells are on point tbh but any feedback would be ace.

Allegiance: Daughters of Khaine
- Temple: Zainthar Kai
Bloodwrack Medusa (140)
- General
- Command Trait: Curse of the Bloody-Handed  
- Artefact: Shadow Stone  
- Lore of Shadows: Mindrazor
Hag Queen (100)
- Artefact: Thousand and One Dark Blessings  
- Prayer: Catechism of Murder
Slaughter Queen on Cauldron of Blood (330)
- Artefact: Hagbrew  
- Prayer: Blessing of Khaine
10 x Blood Sisters (280)
10 x Blood Sisters (280)
20 x Sisters of Slaughter (240)
- Barbed Whips and Sacrificial Knives
10 x Blood Stalkers (280)
5 x Khinerai Heartrenders (90)
5 x Khinerai Heartrenders (90)
Scathcoven (140)

Total: 1970 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 114
 

There isn't a great reason to run a slaughter queen on cauldron over a hag queen if she isn't going to be your general. Id switch the cauldron to a hag queen and give her the thousand and one dark blessings to help her survive. She's your only bonus scoring unit for focal points and the only survivable one for any of the hero missions. Then your foot hag can take the iron circlet to reroll her prayer rolls of 1. So this gives you an extra witchbrew for those reroll wound rolls, and also 30 points back. Add that to the 30 you arent using, and you can bump your sisters of slaughter unit to a full 30 block. Now you have a legitimate screen and 30 very maneuverable bodies. I like the bucklers on a unit like that, but thats just me. My sisters are typically less damage dealers and more of board controllers and objective takers. So I value them surviving over their offensive output. 

I'm curious to see whether the blood sisters without morathi are worth it. Ive enjoyed the bow snakes lately and feel they add a lot to the army, but I only ever run them with morathi and get good use of her command ability. Im unsure as to whether they do enough without the hero phase activation.

[5kaven5lave]

@Graywater Thanks man, lots to think about. I knew I was missing the secret sauce with the archers, will have to have a look at Morathi then. 

Edit: In the meantime I’m gonna downplay the bows and try the beefier melee options with a Hag on Cauldron and the artefacts you suggested, thanks man. 

Edited December 14, 2020 by 5kaven5lave

[swarmofseals]

@InSaint nice writeup! One quibble though -- Khailebron is extremely competitive for certain lists (Morathi/Stalkers and Shadowhammer Compact). Hagg Nar is still the way to go for most lists like you said. I can agree to that.

[Chumphammer]

Had another idea for a list:

HagNarr
Morathi-Khaine: 210 Steed of Shadows 
Shadow Quueen:  390
Hag Queen on Cauldron: 290 Blessing of Khaine
Medusa on Cauldron: 210 - General - Devoted Disciples - Shadow Stone
15 Blood Sisters: 420
5 Blood Sisters: 140
5 Blood Sisters: 140
9 Khainite Shadowstalkers: 100
9 Khainite Shadowstalkers: 100

2000
9 Drops. 4 Casts, 3 dispels,  118W

[5kaven5lave]

How about this one as a snake blender? Too few heroes / Hags? Venom is on the Ironscale to get more chance of the buff proc-ing for the Sisters. As before, feedback very gratefully received.

Allegiance: Daughters of Khaine
- Temple: Zainthar Kai
Bloodwrack Medusa (140)
- General
- Command Trait: Curse of the Bloody-Handed  
- Artefact: Shadow Stone  
- Lore of Shadows: Mindrazor
Hag Queen on Cauldron of Blood (290)
- Artefact: Thousand and One Dark Blessings  
- Prayer: Catechism of Murder
Melusai Ironscale (140)
- Artefact: Bloodbane Venom  
30 x Sisters of Slaughter (300)
- Barbed Whips and Sacrificial Knives
20 x Blood Sisters (480)
10 x Blood Sisters (280)
5 x Blood Stalkers (140)
5 x Khinerai Heartrenders (90)
Scathcoven (140)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 130
 

 

[Graywater]

2 hours ago, 5kaven5lave said:

How about this one as a snake blender? Too few heroes / Hags? Venom is on the Ironscale to get more chance of the buff proc-ing for the Sisters. As before, feedback very gratefully received.

Allegiance: Daughters of Khaine
- Temple: Zainthar Kai
Bloodwrack Medusa (140)
- General
- Command Trait: Curse of the Bloody-Handed  
- Artefact: Shadow Stone  
- Lore of Shadows: Mindrazor
Hag Queen on Cauldron of Blood (290)
- Artefact: Thousand and One Dark Blessings  
- Prayer: Catechism of Murder
Melusai Ironscale (140)
- Artefact: Bloodbane Venom  
30 x Sisters of Slaughter (300)
- Barbed Whips and Sacrificial Knives
20 x Blood Sisters (480)
10 x Blood Sisters (280)
5 x Blood Stalkers (140)
5 x Khinerai Heartrenders (90)
Scathcoven (140)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 130
 

 

I think the ironscale is only worth considering if you're not running morathi, because thats the only time you're going to have the CP available for hercommand ability. I do think its a mistake investing in her +1 attack ability on her warscroll though. Youre going to lose too many snakes when you activate the ironscale first. Better to just use the zainthar Kai CA for +1 attack and keep the ironscale out of combat. Snakes at 4 attacks each are going to hurt a lot of things. I like running the crown of woe on the ironscale. Youre going to heavily depend on mindrazor to push damage through against some armies. Crown of woe will help make sure you get the +1 damage by putting out the -1 bravery aura, and she has a shooting attack that will let her extend the aura range without putting her in combat. 

[5kaven5lave]

1 hour ago, Graywater said:

I think the ironscale is only worth considering if you're not running morathi, because thats the only time you're going to have the CP available for hercommand ability. I do think its a mistake investing in her +1 attack ability on her warscroll though. Youre going to lose too many snakes when you activate the ironscale first. Better to just use the zainthar Kai CA for +1 attack and keep the ironscale out of combat. Snakes at 4 attacks each are going to hurt a lot of things. I like running the crown of woe on the ironscale. Youre going to heavily depend on mindrazor to push damage through against some armies. Crown of woe will help make sure you get the +1 damage by putting out the -1 bravery aura, and she has a shooting attack that will let her extend the aura range without putting her in combat. 

You’re quickly becoming one of my favourite people, super helpful again man, many thanks. 

[jhamslam]

On 12/16/2020 at 12:55 PM, Graywater said:

I think the ironscale is only worth considering if you're not running morathi, because thats the only time you're going to have the CP available for hercommand ability. I do think its a mistake investing in her +1 attack ability on her warscroll though. Youre going to lose too many snakes when you activate the ironscale first. Better to just use the zainthar Kai CA for +1 attack and keep the ironscale out of combat. Snakes at 4 attacks each are going to hurt a lot of things. I like running the crown of woe on the ironscale. Youre going to heavily depend on mindrazor to push damage through against some armies. Crown of woe will help make sure you get the +1 damage by putting out the -1 bravery aura, and she has a shooting attack that will let her extend the aura range without putting her in combat. 

they need to have a keyword for heroes that are meant to be fighters.

Activating a unit in AoS is like playing a card in magic , you want the max force multiplier in it

Meaning (this is uber simplified), its better to activate 10 power in one go rather than 3 3 2 2 in that order.

SCE heroes suffer from this too, tanky dudes that arent enough to kill anything but are better than your troops but you feel bad activating them first, so they just die in the counter swing.

Some keyword like SUPPORT where the unit swings alongside a battleline unit if its wholly within 4 inches of the battleline unit and within 3 of the enemy. Would solve a lot of the problems with the feel bad scenarios with support heroes

[Graywater]

5 minutes ago, jhamslam said:

they need to have a keyword for heroes that are meant to be fighters.

Activating a unit in AoS is like playing a card in magic , you want the max force multiplier in it

Meaning (this is uber simplified), its better to activate 10 power in one go rather than 3 3 2 2 in that order.

SCE heroes suffer from this too, tanky dudes that arent enough to kill anything but are better than your troops but you feel bad activating them first, so they just die in the counter swing.

Some keyword like SUPPORT where the unit swings alongside a battleline unit if its wholly within 4 inches of the battleline unit and within 3 of the enemy. Would solve a lot of the problems with the feel bad scenarios with support heroes

Thats an interesting solution to this problem. I have been thinking about something similar to what you're proposing. Back in 6th edition 40k you could attach small heroes to squads. They could then not be targeted until their squad is killed, but you can detach them by moving them away. Being able to attach a small, non monster or behemoth foot hero to a unit (or a mounted hero to a similarly mounted unit) could be a cool way to let units benefit from support heroes like you're proposing, while giving them a bit of extra protection in this super deadly game state we currently have. We already have the beginning of this type of system with some of the underworlds warbands.

[5kaven5lave]

Had a couple of games with the list above, probably nothing new to anyone here but will share a couple of quick impressions.

Played vs. IDK, me and the missus both picked up Aelves as armies to learn together. Never played vs. IDK before so just got smashed in High Tide first game on a semi-narrative battleplan.

2nd game got a bit wiser and switched to Hagg Nar, not even funny how much better it is. Didn’t miss the extra attacks from the ZK CA at all. By turn 3/4 the 20 BS and SoS were blending everything. Crazy powerful. Lost on Starstrike by a decent margin but basically would’ve won if I’d won priority into turn 5. Unit of 5 Stalkers are a nice little objective holder and MW plinker too.

Really enjoying the army, love the overlapping buffs and insane blending abilities. Multiple boxes of snakes incoming. 

[Xil]

Had my first match vs LRL today with Morathi update. 

I am disappointed. 

Even tho I played a fairly new player his units are on another level. 

The only positive thing is Stalkers and Morathi. 

New Blood Sisters are horrible bad for an elite unit. They swapped out Stalkers for Tax units. The new Crystal touch is just bad. 10 Sisters with Morathi nearby for one extra attack didn't even manage to take out a unit of 10 wardens and got killed in return... The reliance on extra attacks just doesn't feel right. Especially the command point hungry playstyle we now have isn't helping in an army that has difficulties gaining these. Not to mention total eclipse from LRL... 

 

Let's see what a new Tome, if we get one brings, but if things don't change I will place them beside my Sylvaneth.  Or I just keep playing old witches spam. 

Just Glass left in our glass canon army. Canons got stolen... 

Edited December 23, 2020 by Xil

[Chumphammer]

I still rate Blood sisters. They are a great combat unit still, even with crystal touch being at the end.

I play LRL also, and 10 sisters normally would chew through 10 wardens. Your dice are mainly to blame there 

[Graywater]

Yeah, while blood sisters feel like the lesser cousins of their sister of slaughter and witch elf counterparts, I still think theyre quite good. I run a single unit of 20 alongside morathi and they perform quite well. With 20 models, they can blend through most anything, especially with witchbrew, hag nar rerolls, bonus attacks for big morathi in combat nearby, and ideally mind razor. Ive come to appreciate the new crystal touch rules too, as it allows us to tag a second unit or hero to pump all of the mortals into after putting the glaives into the first unit. Ive killed a unit of hermdar hearthguard berzerkers in just a combat phase plus hero phase activation. They've also run through a unit of 20 blightkings and took out the harbinger of decay in a single turn. The snakes can definitely still be worked with.

[Gokken]

Hey guys quick question about the Ironscale, I got her for christmas and I like the model a lot.

Her command ability seems really great but does it work with at the double give you use 2 command points, and if so in which way? 

A) you treat each die as a roll that equals 6 giving you a run 12 for 2 commandspoints and a charge after.

B) the combined roll of the two die is =6 so any low rolls  can basicly be minimum to this for an extra command point.

C) you roll two die one comes up as  a 6 and one is 2, you use one command point to change the second dice with a value of 2 to 6. Meaning it only effects one die but you can essential choose which.

D) It cannot be combined with at the double! you cannot have nice things even at christmas!!! THIS IS NOT ALLOWED!!!!

Marry christmas!

 

Edited December 25, 2020 by Gokken

[Lucentia]

I thought that this was covered in the Slaanesh FAQ (Seekers have an innate 2d6 run + charge) but I just looked and didn't see it.

My understanding is that At The Double turns a run roll into a 6, so no matter how many dice you might be rolling for that run you'll only be going 6" with that command ability.

[5kaven5lave]

Merry Xmas all.

Whats the verdict on Blood Sisters in 20 blocks? Worth it or better in 10s? I’d be running the Scathcoven so no battleshock to worry about. Cheers. 

[Gokken]

3 hours ago, Lucentia said:

I thought that this was covered in the Slaanesh FAQ (Seekers have an innate 2d6 run + charge) but I just looked and didn't see it.

My understanding is that At The Double turns a run roll into a 6, so no matter how many dice you might be rolling for that run you'll only be going 6" with that command ability.

ah thank you very much, then I am afraid she will be benched, she is simply not worth 140 points, 90 sure but 140 for a command ability that on average gives 1 more move than at the double is just bad, also he blood offering is garbage.

[Lucentia]

Worth noting that At The Double doesn't let you charge after running your 6", but I'm generally in agreement that the Ironscale is not that useful in trying to write competitive lists.

[Graywater]

1 hour ago, 5kaven5lave said:

Merry Xmas all.

Whats the verdict on Blood Sisters in 20 blocks? Worth it or better in 10s? I’d be running the Scathcoven so no battleshock to worry about. Cheers. 

I think it entirely depends on how you're building. A block of 20 is excellent in a kind of hybrid army, where you have some witches/sisters of slaughter and some snakes. In an all snake army, a block of 20 i think is too much. Snake armies don't let you put as many bodies on the board. The bodies you do get therefore need to be able to be put in different places on the battlefield. 

 

25 minutes ago, Gokken said:

ah thank you very much, then I am afraid she will be benched, she is simply not worth 140 points, 90 sure but 140 for a command ability that on average gives 1 more move than at the double is just bad, also he blood offering is garbage.

Run 2d6 and charge is powerful. However, you're right in that she is too expensive. The rest of her abilities are bad, you never have the spare CP to use her command ability anyways, and she doesn't unlock snakes as battleline if she's your general. If she did thr last point, at least there would be a discussion about including her or a medusa. At the moment, the medusa is mandatory for snakes, so sparing a second 140 points is not acceptable.