AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion

[Balthasar]

I also played my first game in V3 with the SCE (1000pts each, 2v2). Here is my quick feeback :

- I really liked playing with Yndrasta, she is scary in range, she is scary in melee, she is not easy to kill but above all her ability to bring back the dead stormcast makes the army incredibly solid

- the "blaze of glory" ability, without being very strong, allowed me to do some very appreciable additional mortal wounds notably against a hero that my Vindicators had surrounded (just before Yndrasta made them come back!)

- I I had a lot of luck with my Anihilators (12 on the charge roll, fatal wounds on arrival almost all successful) which allowed me to destroy in the opposing ranks. I think they distributed 15 MW in total just on their arrival tower. It was particularly cool to see !

I can't wait to see what the new battletome will do, but the Dominion units are very interesting and give the Stormcast a lot of new possibilities.

[PJetski]

3 hours ago, Marcvs said:

I am curious about this. At present warscrolls, what makes you rate the Templar that much better than the Tauralon?

The tauralon has the same save and has a better attack profile  (which doesn't degrade), plus he's a two cast wizard.

I'd argue that rain of stars is worse now, as all chip damage, due to heroic recovery. Is it the jaws that are more useful due to the new coherency rules? or the access to MWs from storm winged / tail? (which, to an extent, can be replicated by arcane bolt / magic)

I would argue that Rain of Stars is better now since you can add all kinds of mortal wounds more easily. Together with Stomp, Arcane Bolt (arcane tome is the best artefact), and Storm-winged he can do a lot of mortal wounds without rolling any attack dice. Heroic Recovery is not guaranteed healing (some armies have poor bravery on their heroes) and it comes at the opportunity cost of generating a command point or using Their Finest Hour.

The +1/-1 casting aura is really useful (especially with Arcane Tome). He also gives all Dracoths +1 to hit against one enemy, which is great because Dracoths are a huge command point dump - you want to use AOA in both shooting and combat, and AOD when required so they drain your command points quickly.

He also has a huge base for spreading auras like Staunch Defender, and more wounds than the Tauralon

In other news, Heraldor is a must-have in almost any Stormcast list now. With so much terrain on the board and more smaller sized units the guaranteed damage from his trumpet blast is fantastic. I would consider taking them just as a shooting unit that fills the coveted Subcommander slot for battalions.

[NinthMusketeer]

Stardrake with Amulet of Destiny is OP. What was in 2nd edition a model that took 16 damage to kill becomes a model that takes (statistically) 24 damage to kill by default, can heal 2d3 per round thanks to heroic recovery, gets monster actions, and its ability to pick out individual models allows for killing unit leaders and/or disrupting coherency which are both more important this edition.

[Nizrah]

Yea but stardrake is very expensive now. Im gonna play two tournaments before new book drop and gonna test both Tauralon and Stardrake. But im looking forword for Tauralon now. 

[Erdemo86]

So I’m almost done with my Dominion Box. Bases, some correction and done.

 

 

Edited July 12, 2021 by Erdemo86

[NinthMusketeer]

Nice work on that banner!

[Sagittarii Orientalis]

I realise the benefits of using Monsters in 3.0 meta. However I cannot help but think Stormcast monsters(Stardrake, Tauralon) are still too costly to include in the list. The nerf on sigmarite thundershield only exacerbates the issue, as it was one of the core strengths of a stardrake. 

Stardrake can perform somewhat okay, if not superbly, against horde but tends to perform miserably against enemy monsters or models with 4~5 wounds and decent saves. Even if I take various supporting rules(arcane lineage, rain of stars) into account, minimum 450 points is still hard to swallow. 

I would rather not take stormcast monsters and rely on the spell metamorphosis to give MONSTER keyword to characters, even if it means there is a chance of failure.

Edited July 12, 2021 by Sagittarii Orientalis

[OkayestDM]

12 minutes ago, Sagittarii Orientalis said:

I realise the benefits of using Monsters in 3.0 meta. However I cannot help but think Stormcast monsters(Stardrake, Tauralon) are still too costly to include in the list. The nerf on sigmarite thundershield only exacerbates the issue, as it was one of the core strengths of a stardrake. 

Stardrake can perform somewhat okay, if not superbly, against horde but tends to perform miserably against enemy monsters or models with 4~5 wounds and decent saves. Even if I take various supporting rules(arcane lineage, rain of stars) into account, minimum 450 points is still hard to swallow. 

I would rather not take stormcast monsters and rely on the spell metamorphosis to give MONSTER keyword to characters, even if means there is a chance of failure.

As they are now, you may be right. Hopefully, the new battletome will give them that extra bit of punch they need to be worth taking.

August can't come soon enough.

[Marcvs]

48 minutes ago, Sagittarii Orientalis said:

I realise the benefits of using Monsters in 3.0 meta. However I cannot help but think Stormcast monsters(Stardrake, Tauralon) are still too costly to include in the list. The nerf on sigmarite thundershield only exacerbates the issue, as it was one of the core strengths of a stardrake. 

Stardrake can perform somewhat okay, if not superbly, against horde but tends to perform miserably against enemy monsters or models with 4~5 wounds and decent saves. Even if I take various supporting rules(arcane lineage, rain of stars) into account, minimum 450 points is still hard to swallow. 

I would rather not take stormcast monsters and rely on the spell metamorphosis to give MONSTER keyword to characters, even if it means there is a chance of failure.

Problem is: which chracters would you pick as target for the metmorphosis spell? We're not brimming with non-monsters combat heroes either 🤷‍♀️ and you risk giving away a point if they die while under the effect of the spell

[Sagittarii Orientalis]

28 minutes ago, Marcvs said:

Problem is: which chracters would you pick as target for the metmorphosis spell? We're not brimming with non-monsters combat heroes either 🤷‍♀️ and you risk giving away a point if they die while under the effect of the spell

Yndrasta seems to be the suitable candidate for the spell as of now. Reasonably good combat prowess, good defence, and superb supporting ability in one package.

[Marcvs]

18 minutes ago, Sagittarii Orientalis said:

Yndrasta seems to be the suitable candidate for the spell as of now. Reasonably good combat prowess, good defence, and superb supporting ability in one package.

Damage is similar (and if you count metamorphosis for yndrasta you could also count flaming weapon on the tauralon) and defence is essentially the same if you count the ward (but if stardrake or tauralon have the amulet of destiny, they pull ahead). Yndrasta does a little more damage vs very good save, which are probably very common, but the Stardrake/Tauralon have more MW potential due to abilities or spells. All in all, I think it depends from the rest of the synergies of your list

[PrimeElectrid]

Lords Arcanum make for good targets of Metamorphosis. Get a support wizard to cast the spell then cast Arcane Bolt. Pop Finest Hour. Do D3 MW from Stomp, D3-D6 from Arcane Bolt, then crack spirit flasks, then pop All out Attack so him and the mount are hitting on 2s wounding on 2s for ~4 damage vs 4+ (some variance with the mounts but both work out around 2).

11 damage to a non-monster unit with 10 models or less (14 if they have more than 10 due to spirit flasks).

As he counts as 5 models for scoring he can easily push something off an objective. Against other monsters he can use Titanic Duel and save the CP. Drops to 9 wounds which is still impressive. 

Edited July 12, 2021 by PrimeElectrid

[PJetski]

It's hard to get invested in making lists with the 2nd ed battletome vv

[PrimeElectrid]

double post 

Edited July 12, 2021 by PrimeElectrid

[stus67]

1 hour ago, PJetski said:

It's hard to get invested in making lists with the 2nd ed battletome vv

This is me right now. I keep trying to make lists to fit the new things into my anvils army but it's hard to think of anything decent knowing there's a looming release and a bunch of missing new units. Thankfully I have soulblight to keep me occupied.

[PrimeElectrid]

I actually have an event before the next tome is out so have to get invested. It’s a double whammy as there’s stuff I would like to use but don’t have and don’t want to commit to buying before a new book.

[Andalf]

1 hour ago, stus67 said:

This is me right now. I keep trying to make lists to fit the new things into my anvils army but it's hard to think of anything decent knowing there's a looming release and a bunch of missing new units. Thankfully I have soulblight to keep me occupied.

Agreed, the games I’ve tried the new Thunderstrike stuff made me wish I’d just used my old Sacrosanct list with a bunch of endless spells peppered in.  They have their uses, but without the tome I feel that there are too many synergies I’ve come to rely on with my Arcanum lists, and for the most part those armies are swingy and completely dependent on whether my opponent can dispel a lot.

I’ve taken some armies using 3 reinforced squads (2xsequitors and 1xvindictors).  These units would generally just get bogged down/targeted hard and were too slow, even after deep strike, just like old AoS. They could score an objective but the following turns would tend to stand around or wait for support that was likely too busy or too slow to get there.

Based on these experiences I started bringing all 5 man squads and finding interesting ways to layer them up so the back models could swing while the front took the hits.  My lists went up to 40 infantry and seemed to do alright against shooty armies that couldn’t close in for the kill, and against other CC reaction-type forces I could typically out-react with 8 squads.  Then I played into a couple 1 drop lists with Teclis and Neferata and noticed that my units didn’t really do any damage, they just took up space and were threatening enough.  It was my opponents likely bad target priority not really able to douse the 2 damage 2” range Evocators behind the Sequitors.  Against the faster hammer units like Blood Knights and Stonehorn spam this list seemingly got picked up off the table as those armies simply moved forward, there wasn’t much I could do.

So now I’m back full circle.  Yndrasta is amazing, it’s hard to take the Tauralon over her until I think of Battle Tactics and board control.  The healing from the Knight Vexillor has been clutch in two/three games and the reroll charges even more so for my Evocators dropping in.  The issue is he tends to get left behind/sniped first and so I’d say 1/2 maybe 1/3 games he’s working.  Casting was really swingy when I dropped to two/three wizards in order to keep the Thunderstrike stuff in (the Annihilators love the Imperatant, and with the generic relics he’s a boss IMO) so I’ve ended up back to 4 wizards total and expecting my last 200 points will be another Incantor and Endless Spell.  It’s bare bones as can be so far, the idea is to try and grab a hold of the middle of the table and then do as many MW as possible (I think AoS in a nutshell duh... haha)

Tauralon

Gryphcharger

Lord Arcanum

Knight Incantor

3 x 5 Sequitors

2 x 5 Evocators

Everblaze Comet

Chronomantic Cogs

As I said this is 1800 points.  I’m finding almost none of the damage from ‘normal’ combat all that effective unless it’s against chaff.  The Gutrippaz and Manskewerz being able to drop to 5+ MW uncontested has been lethal, there isn’t a combination I can come up with that does damage like that reliably.  So the mechanic has gone back to dialing up the casting to 11.  Pushing up Lightning Blast, Chain Lightning, Stormcaller, Lightning Orb, Spiritstorm, on top of the wishful Cogs and Everblaze Comet can destroy and cripple a good chunk of the board.  The last 200 points I’ve been testing out reinforcing Sequitors or taking another Knight Incantor, and then grabbing Soulsnare Shackles as well.  Armies with auto unbinds and even 4-5 wizards of their own should struggle to keep all the casts at bay, and hopefully I can target their magic defence early myself.  The grand strategy of guarding a wizard gets really easy, and honestly I’ve made it each time.  It feels like a cheesier build than I’m used to, but I’m getting tired of limiting my lists and running into units that I knew I would, and hadn’t brought anything to deal with them.

I’m really starting to come around on the idea of Palladors again too.  It’s the 15 wound units pulling the weight for me and these guys are one of the less expensive while also the fastest and a small MW mechanic (yay 1.5 MW a turn from my beakers!)  Or maybe dropping an endless spell for more Evocators again... 

Edited July 12, 2021 by Andalf

[PrimeElectrid]

41 minutes ago, Andalf said:

Agreed, the games I’ve tried the new Thunderstrike stuff made me wish I’d just used my old Sacrosanct list with a bunch of endless spells peppered in.  They have their uses, but without the tome I feel that there are too many synergies I’ve come to rely on with my Arcanum lists, and for the most part those armies are swingy and completely dependent on whether my opponent can dispel a lot.

I’ve taken some armies using 3 reinforced squads (2xsequitors and 1xvindictors).  These units would generally just get bogged down/targeted hard and were too slow, even after deep strike, just like old AoS. They could score an objective but the following turns would tend to stand around or wait for support that was likely too busy or too slow to get there.

Based on these experiences I started bringing all 5 man squads and finding interesting ways to layer them up so the back models could swing while the front took the hits.  My lists went up to 40 infantry and seemed to do alright against shooty armies that couldn’t close in for the kill, and against other CC reaction-type forces I could typically out-react with 8 squads.  Then I played into a couple 1 drop lists with Teclis and Neferata and noticed that my units didn’t really do any damage, they just took up space and were threatening enough.  It was my opponents likely bad target priority not really able to douse the 2 damage 2” range Evocators behind the Sequitors.  Against the faster hammer units like Blood Knights and Stonehorn spam this list seemingly got picked up off the table as those armies simply moved forward, there wasn’t much I could do.

So now I’m back full circle.  Yndrasta is amazing, it’s hard to take the Tauralon over her until I think of Battle Tactics and board control.  The healing from the Knight Vexillor has been clutch in two/three games and the reroll charges even more so for my Evocators dropping in.  The issue is he tends to get left behind/sniped first and so I’d say 1/2 maybe 1/3 games he’s working.  Casting was really swingy when I dropped to two/three wizards in order to keep the Thunderstrike stuff in (the Annihilators love the Imperatant, and with the generic relics he’s a boss IMO) so I’ve ended up back to 4 wizards total and expecting my last 200 points will be another Incantor and Endless Spell.  It’s bare bones as can be so far, the idea is to try and grab a hold of the middle of the table and then do as many MW as possible (I think AoS in a nutshell duh... haha)

Tauralon

Gryphcharger

Lord Arcanum

Knight Incantor

3 x 5 Sequitors

2 x 5 Evocators

Everblaze Comet

Chronomantic Cogs

As I said this is 1800 points.  I’m finding almost none of the damage from ‘normal’ combat all that effective unless it’s against chaff.  The Gutrippaz and Manskewerz being able to drop to 5+ MW uncontested has been lethal, there isn’t a combination I can come up with that does damage like that reliably.  So the mechanic has gone back to dialing up the casting to 11.  Pushing up Lightning Blast, Chain Lightning, Stormcaller, Lightning Orb, Spiritstorm, on top of the wishful Cogs and Everblaze Comet can destroy and cripple a good chunk of the board.  The last 200 points I’ve been testing out reinforcing Sequitors or taking another Knight Incantor, and then grabbing Soulsnare Shackles as well.  Armies with auto unbinds and even 4-5 wizards of their own should struggle to keep all the casts at bay, and hopefully I can target their magic defence early myself.  The grand strategy of guarding a wizard gets really easy, and honestly I’ve made it each time.  It feels like a cheesier build than I’m used to, but I’m getting tired of limiting my lists and running into units that I knew I would, and hadn’t brought anything to deal with them.

I’m really starting to come around on the idea of Palladors again too.  It’s the 15 wound units pulling the weight for me and these guys are one of the less expensive while also the fastest and a small MW mechanic (yay 1.5 MW a turn from my beakers!)  Or maybe dropping an endless spell for more Evocators again... 

I feel like everything a comet does, a Heraldor does better for the same price and more reliably.

[Andalf]

1 hour ago, PrimeElectrid said:

I feel like everything a comet does, a Heraldor does better for the same price and more reliably.

I think you’re right, and the run/charge could come in really handy for the Evo’s with the Tauralon’s command ability I often flick on turn 1!!  I could probably still do both in this list, or rejig and maybe bring another moving damage endless spell like aethervoid, gravetide or our own vortex for board control too. Thanks for the shout.

[NinthMusketeer]

Something very important to consider is the SCE monsters come in two varieties; with or without the Amulet of Destiny. That artifact is, in effect, a 50% increase in wounds and healing. That can easily bump a monster from UP to OP.

[LordPrometheus]

1 minute ago, NinthMusketeer said:

Something very important to consider is the SCE monsters come in two varieties; with or without the Amulet of Destiny. That artifact is, in effect, a 50% increase in wounds and healing. That can easily bump a monster from UP to OP.

Never take a Stardrake without the Amulet. A ward save on that bad boy is just amazing.

[LordPrometheus]

1 hour ago, PrimeElectrid said:

I feel like everything a comet does, a Heraldor does better for the same price and more reliably.

Good call. The comet is just garbage now. I have no idea why they wrecked it so badly.

[PJetski]

The only reason to use the comet is if you want another d3 mortal wounds and all your leader slots are filled with Heraldors already

...probably still not worth using in that situation

[NinthMusketeer]

Well the Heraldor must pick a terrain piece wholly within 18" of himself and only hits enemy units within 3" of it. Compared to comet which is a 20" diameter circle that is dropped up to 36" away. The Heraldor is a hero offering a mobility buff, the comet is an endless spell putting out a casting debuff.

Comparing the two directly isn't helpful, instead they need to be evaluated within the context of the army as a whole and what tools is has/will benefit from. Unilaterally declaring one as superior is, with all due respect, not thinking things through.

[NinthMusketeer]

1 hour ago, LordPrometheus said:

Good call. The comet is just garbage now. I have no idea why they wrecked it so badly.

They removed the 5" damage pulses and increased it's casting debuff range to 10". It's main impact remains when it is first summoned, after which the best use is to dispel so it can be resummoned. It's a small nerf at worst and depending on local meta the longer debuff range can compensate for losing the short-range MWs.

As for why, you know why.