AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion

[Maturin]

Just now, Mattrulesok said:

In a shooting meta is there any play in protectors? - 1 to hit vs shooting, units behind count as in cover. Evocators or sequitors in cover vs ranged with a 3+ save rerolling 1s, 2+ with a Lord castellant

But they're so slow. They can be useful in Skyborne slayers, but otherwise you'll have to consider them as a palisade for your more important units.

[Kramer]

Any value in building my last unit of Vanguard-Raptors in the Justicar Conclave with Hurricane Crossbows?

As I struggle to repose them enough to make 6 look individual. Let alone nine. Crossbows would help with that. Just seems like a waste of Longstrike shots. 

Love that big battalion though. I don't care if it's tournament winning, but the more I look at it, the more I love how it makes the Vanguard play like a Guerrilla style army.

[Mattrulesok]

28 minutes ago, Maturin said:

But they're so slow. They can be useful in Skyborne slayers, but otherwise you'll have to consider them as a palisade for your more important units.

True but there are options, cogs, Knight heraldor for run and charge, simply running them up the field? If the army is shooting based they are unlikely to want to engage so the game plan may be to castle up, hold objectives and slowly work your way up the board using the protectors to neuter the strength of shooting, maybe using some other units to deep strike or take objectives? The biggest issue is there aren't any battalions that would work that I can think of leaving a high drop army

[Milano]

47 minutes ago, Kramer said:

Any value in building my last unit of Vanguard-Raptors in the Justicar Conclave with Hurricane Crossbows?

As I struggle to repose them enough to make 6 look individual. Let alone nine. Crossbows would help with that. Just seems like a waste of Longstrike shots. 

Love that big battalion though. I don't care if it's tournament winning, but the more I look at it, the more I love how it makes the Vanguard play like a Guerrilla style army.

It is a blast to play. I had a vanguard army before the point changes, when it was rating at being really bad. Still didnt care, cause they looked so good on the table.  Seeing them being now totally dominant (as mega battalion) in every melee oriented game is like they are finally obtaining some gratification. Brings a smile to my face 😃

I use it for games on competitive level only (list+skill). Otherwise a game is over in no time. No fun for both sides

[Kramer]

4 minutes ago, Milano said:

It is a blast to play. I had a vanguard army before the point changes, when it was rating at being really bad. Still didnt care, cause they looked so good on the table.  Seeing them being now totally dominant (as mega battalion) in every melee oriented game is like they are finally obtaining some gratification. Brings a smile to my face 😃

I use it for games on competitive level only (list+skill). Otherwise a game is over in no time. No fun for both sides

yeah my first stormcast where the blight war box models for that reason. 

but that’s a good sign. I will play it vs my own Ogors and KO mostly. So last three as hurricane crossbows is fine then. 

[Marcvs]

17 hours ago, PJetski said:

Evocators, Dracolines, and Dracoths (Desolators and Fulminators) are the only Stormcast melee units worth using. If we are in a shooting meta then Fulminators are a great choice.

I am perfectly aware that they are bad, but I am thinking that a unit of Tempestors might be worth it for the -1 to hit bubble (after checking, it extends to all friendly units, so they might be interesting in this role also as allies). Being "within 12", the bubble might cover an entire army if you put some units in azyr

[jeanfluflu]

3 hours ago, Marcvs said:

I am perfectly aware that they are bad, but I am thinking that a unit of Tempestors might be worth it for the -1 to hit bubble (after checking, it extends to all friendly units, so they might be interesting in this role also as allies). Being "within 12", the bubble might cover an entire army if you put some units in azyr

Most of the very powerful shooting units (skinks, flamers, lumineth archers...etc) don't do that much damages with the base profile of the weapon.

Problem is more about the triggering of mortal wounds on an unmodified 6 to hit or even 5 and 6 for the elves archer.

I think against these units a castellant with storm lantern is a better use for cheaper points (make the opponent reroll 6 to hit is pretty insane, you more or less divide by 6 the amount of MW for a 120pts hero that you will most likely play anyway).

KO is another subject in itself, problem with them is mostly the mobility and concentration of fire power that makes them pretty hard to deal with (when 1200pts of army concentrate on 400 of yours well your unit dies and the boats can TP somewhere else and repeat the process).

[Marcvs]

2 minutes ago, jeanfluflu said:

Most of the very powerful shooting units (skinks, flamers, lumineth archers...etc) don't do that much damages with the base profile of the weapon.

Problem is more about the triggering of mortal wounds on an unmodified 6 to hit or even 5 and 6 for the elves archer.

I think against these units a castellant with storm lantern is a better use for cheaper points (make the opponent reroll 6 to hit is pretty insane, you more or less divide by 6 the amount of MW for a 120pts hero that you will most likely play anyway).

KO is another subject in itself, problem with them is mostly the mobility and concentration of fire power that makes them pretty hard to deal with (when 1200pts of army concentrate on 400 of yours well your unit dies and the boats can TP somewhere else and repeat the process).

Agree on the lantern, it's great against those units so it could complete the bunker. -1 to hit will still hurt normal skinks buffed by the starpriest as they do mw in 6 to wound

The problem is how do you win afterwards 😅

[PrimeElectrid]

So nobody saw that a Gav bomb won a 5 game event at the weekend? Fjordhammer GT.

Good use of allies to increase drops for the sky and apply board presence (screening and shooting). Also means there is nothing valuable on the table.

Anyone know what battleplans were played? Was Total Commitment or any of the ones with bonus VP for battleline/hero/monster in play?

list was:

Relictor

Lord-Ordinator 

Gavriel

3x5 Libs

10 Evocator 

3x Ballista

3x Longstrikes 

2x3 Aetherwings 

10 Skinks

10 Wardens

10 Sentinels

 

Edited October 26, 2020 by PrimeElectrid

[Marcvs]

2 hours ago, PrimeElectrid said:

So nobody saw that a Gav bomb won a 5 game event at the weekend? Fjordhammer GT.

Good use of allies to increase drops for the sky and apply board presence (screening and shooting). Also means there is nothing valuable on the table.

Anyone know what battleplans were played? Was Total Commitment or any of the ones with bonus VP for battleline/hero/monster in play?

list was:

Relictor

Lord-Ordinator 

Gavriel

3x5 Libs

10 Evocator 

3x Ballista

10 Skinks

10 Wardens

10 Sentinels

 

Surely a cool list, nice seeing ballistas doing well (although, ofc, it was a 20-players tournament)

Don't know about the battleplans, but you can find pairings here

https://www.bestcoastpairings.com/r/0kb9uuj3

The winner met KO - LRL - IDK - LRL - IDK (last game was a draw)

EDIT: I think you are missing a unit of 3 longstrikes and 2 units of birds from the list

Edited October 26, 2020 by Marcvs

[schwabbele]

Tbh Gav will be an evergreen as long as evos pack their punch. 
He is the perfect delivery vehicle after all. 

[Mark Williams]

7 hours ago, PrimeElectrid said:

So nobody saw that a Gav bomb won a 5 game event at the weekend? Fjordhammer GT.

Good use of allies to increase drops for the sky and apply board presence (screening and shooting). Also means there is nothing valuable on the table.

Anyone know what battleplans were played? Was Total Commitment or any of the ones with bonus VP for battleline/hero/monster in play?

list was:

Relictor

Lord-Ordinator 

Gavriel

3x5 Libs

10 Evocator 

3x Ballista

3x Longstrikes 

2x3 Aetherwings 

10 Skinks

10 Wardens

10 Sentinels

 

Just a heads up, you can’t use allies to increase drops in the sky. Hopefully he didn’t make that mistake as it would cheapen the victory a bit.
 

Having played lists similar to this for the better part of two years, you need a cavilclade of luck to win a tournament with Gav bomb lists. It’s possible, just really difficult if the matchups are bad. I do want to drill into that pairing link and see what happened with the matchups.

Edit: Yes low scoring tournament. No one got 5/0, and a lot of players canceled each other out. Interesting...

Edited October 26, 2020 by Mark Williams

[Marcvs]

20 minutes ago, Mark Williams said:

Just a heads up, you can’t use allies to increase drops in the sky. Hopefully he didn’t make that mistake as it would cheapen the victory a bit.
 

Having played lists similar to this for the better part of two years, you need a cavilclade of luck to win a tournament with Gav bomb lists. It’s possible, just really difficult if the matchups are bad. I do want to drill into that pairing link and see what happened with the matchups.

The matchups were KO - LRL - IDK - LRL - IDK (lists are not available though)

Btw, I still do not agree with the interpretation concerning allies and scions. Why would you say that allies do not count, surely it's not RAW, what's the basis for the RAI?

EDIT: as for the drops of this specific list, it would be fine anyway with ordinator + 3 ballistas and gavriel+evos in the sky (13 drops without the allies)

Edited October 26, 2020 by Marcvs

[Mark Williams]

36 minutes ago, Marcvs said:

The matchups were KO - LRL - IDK - LRL - IDK (lists are not available though)

Btw, I still do not agree with the interpretation concerning allies and scions. Why would you say that allies do not count, surely it's not RAW, what's the basis for the RAI?

EDIT: as for the drops of this specific list, it would be fine anyway with ordinator + 3 ballistas and gavriel+evos in the sky (13 drops without the allies)

In my area at least, the reasoning is that scions is an allegiance ability, and allies are completely exempted from any allegiance rules by default. If I tried to do that in my area it would be over ruled by a TO. If I have some time later I’ll try to make a stronger case for it, but that’s the core of the issue as far as I know.

[PJetski]

As per the FAQ allies can be targetted by spells learned from allegiance lores (as long as the spell doesn't mention specific keywords for its targets) so it stands to reason they still count as units deployed on the table for purposes of Scions of the Storm.

[Marcvs]

4 minutes ago, Mark Williams said:

In my area at least, the reasoning is that scions is an allegiance ability, and allies are completely exempted from any allegiance rules by default. If I tried to do that in my area it would be over ruled by a TO. If I have some time later I’ll try to make a stronger case for it, but that’s the core of the issue as far as I know.

Ok thanks, and no worries I don't want to waste your time in a rules discussion I understand the "core" argument and I see the point. I do however see several counterpoints where allegiance abilities take into account ally units. The most evident that comes to mind is Forgotten Nightmares of IDK, where you have to shoot to the closest visible unit even if it's a IDK ally (at least I am under the impression that it is played so in relevant tournaments)

[Mark Williams]

23 minutes ago, Marcvs said:

Ok thanks, and no worries I don't want to waste your time in a rules discussion I understand the "core" argument and I see the point. I do however see several counterpoints where allegiance abilities take into account ally units. The most evident that comes to mind is Forgotten Nightmares of IDK, where you have to shoot to the closest visible unit even if it's a IDK ally (at least I am under the impression that it is played so in relevant tournaments)

Ah, see we play it just the opposite, and if the IDK have any allies in their list, we can target them as we please.

[Marcvs]

1 minute ago, Mark Williams said:

Ah, see we play it just the opposite, and if the IDK have any allies in their list, we can target them as we please.

targeting the allies, sure, but if you want to target a IDK unit and one of their allies is the closest visible unit, you have to target the ally.

[Mark Williams]

2 minutes ago, Marcvs said:

targeting the allies, sure, but if you want to target a IDK unit and one of their allies is the closest visible unit, you have to target the ally.

I see.... I'd have to read their rule, but I don't think we'd end up playing it that way.

[jhamslam]

On 10/22/2020 at 10:14 AM, Mattrulesok said:

In a shooting meta is there any play in protectors? - 1 to hit vs shooting, units behind count as in cover. Evocators or sequitors in cover vs ranged with a 3+ save rerolling 1s, 2+ with a Lord castellant

my problem with shooting rn is some genius in the GW design dept decided to give mortal wounds to every damn unit with shooting

Plus the best teleports. We pay 170 pts for a 3 shot 6 damage potential and 6s do mortal wounds

Chameleon skinks deepstrike and can do so again and again, 16 inch range, 2 shots each with mw on 6s

Salamanders...we already know

Vanari Sentinels - 5 up MWs with the empower or 6s otherwise.

This makes saves/ look out sir quite irrelevant for support heroes. But for massed units like Dracothion guard/ Evos etc it could work

[schwabbele]

1 hour ago, jhamslam said:

irrelevant for support heroes.

We have a reroll hits of  6s for missle weapons artifact . Not much but at least something 🙃

[Feii]

Hi guys what do you think about this build?  I guess I need to get rid of the artifact and choose a proper stormhost.

++ **Pitched Battle** 2,000 (Order - Stormcast Eternals) [2,000pts] ++

+ Leader +

Lord-Arcanum on Gryph-charger [200pts]: 1. Wind Runner, 2. Celestial Blades, 2. Mindlock Staff, 5. Staunch Defender, General

Lord-Castellant [120pts]: Faithful Gryph-hound

Lord-Ordinator [140pts]: Astral Grandhammer

Lord-Relictor [100pts]: 6. Translocation

+ Artillery +

Celestar Ballista [110pts]

Celestar Ballista [110pts]

Celestar Ballista [110pts]

Celestar Ballista [110pts]

+ Battleline +

Sequitors [120pts]: 5 Sequitors, 2x Stormsmite Greatmace, Stormsmite Greatmace (Sequitor-Prime), Stormsmite Maul and Soulshield

Sequitors [120pts]: 5 Sequitors, 2x Stormsmite Greatmace, Stormsmite Greatmace (Sequitor-Prime), Stormsmite Maul and Soulshield

Sequitors [240pts]: 2x 5 Sequitors, Redemption Cache, 2x Stormsmite Greatmace, Stormsmite Maul and Soulshield

+ Other +

Evocators on Celestial Dracolines [520pts]: 2x 3 Evocators on Celestial Dracolines, 3. Speed of Lightning, 4x Grandstave, 6x Monstrous Claws

+ Allegiance +

Allegiance: Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals

+ Game Options +

Game Type: 2000 Points - Battlehost

++ Total: [2,000pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

Edited October 27, 2020 by Feii

[FattBooM666]

On 10/22/2020 at 4:04 PM, PJetski said:

Evocators, Dracolines, and Dracoths (Desolators and Fulminators) are the only Stormcast melee units worth using. If we are in a shooting meta then Fulminators are a great choice.

If we skip the 1 drop list.

What would you say off meta or anti meta/meta list would could look like now? If there is any. 

[Mark Williams]

5 minutes ago, FattBooM666 said:

If we skip the 1 drop list.

What would you say off meta or anti meta/meta list would could look like now? If there is any. 

Lately I've been playing around with the idea of putting 2 blocks of 15 evocators in the sky with Gavriel. Almost every list I face in tournaments is designed around killing at least 10 evocators in 1-2 rounds of counter assault or shooting, but almost no one I face seems equipped to deal with 30 of them in their face. I don't know if I feel like painting that many models, but I actually think it might be more effective than people think, and it would certain "anti-meta" a few armies out there that would underestimate how much damage it would take to reduce that many evocators down to erase their combat strength. It would also completely break most of the best "anvil" units out there, which would destroy the game plan of a lot of armies... I dunno... it's just something I've been rolling around in my head for a while now. When the book first came out I saw some people playing around with gav bombs, but I didn't see a lot of people really mature it and take it to the extreme ends of the spectrum. It might not work, but I see a lot of people in tournaments lately who set up their army to absorb the shock of 30 wounds hitting their front line, but they don't seem to plan to deal with anything more than that. It would be a rock paper scissors kind of army, but it would bowl over some people who just completely underestimate it.

 

[Marcvs]

29 minutes ago, Mark Williams said:

Lately I've been playing around with the idea of putting 2 blocks of 15 evocators in the sky with Gavriel. Almost every list I face in tournaments is designed around killing at least 10 evocators in 1-2 rounds of counter assault or shooting, but almost no one I face seems equipped to deal with 30 of them in their face. I don't know if I feel like painting that many models, but I actually think it might be more effective than people think, and it would certain "anti-meta" a few armies out there that would underestimate how much damage it would take to reduce that many evocators down to erase their combat strength. It would also completely break most of the best "anvil" units out there, which would destroy the game plan of a lot of armies... I dunno... it's just something I've been rolling around in my head for a while now. When the book first came out I saw some people playing around with gav bombs, but I didn't see a lot of people really mature it and take it to the extreme ends of the spectrum. It might not work, but I see a lot of people in tournaments lately who set up their army to absorb the shock of 30 wounds hitting their front line, but they don't seem to plan to deal with anything more than that. It would be a rock paper scissors kind of army, but it would bowl over some people who just completely underestimate it.

 

Funny that you mention it. At a recent tournament here in France there was exactly that list, the Gav MegaBomb:
 

Spoiler

Barraka84

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Hammers of Sigmar
LEADERS
Gavriel Sureheart (120)
Knight-Vexillor (110)
- Pennant of the Stormbringer
- Artefact : God-forged Blade
Lord-Relictor (100)
- General
- Command Trait : We Cannot Fail
- Prayer : Translocation
UNITS
15 x Evocators (630)
- 15 x Grandstaves
- Lore of Invigoration : Speed of Lightning
15 x Evocators (630)
- 10 x Grandstaves
- Lore of Invigoration : Speed of Lightning
5 x Judicators (140)
- Skybolt Bows
- 1 x Shockbolt Bows
5 x Liberators (90)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1 x Grandhammers
5 x Liberators (90)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1 x Grandhammers
ENDLESS SPELLS / TERRAIN / COMMAND POINTS
Extra Command Point (50)
 

He went 3-2 (as did I with a Starcast list). and finished around 8th-10th (out of 36 players). However, the games he lost were against seraphon and tzeentch (due to their ability to have screens AND free teleportation) so it's not exactly an anti-meta list

Edited October 27, 2020 by Marcvs