AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion

[AdamR]

2 hours ago, Mark Williams said:

I agree with what @Hodges has said, but at this point I have nothing new to add to the conversation.

So with that said, I just finished this guy tonight.

Here’s the list I plan to try out this weekend. I’ll try to take some pics and report back on how Gotrek does.

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Hammers of Sigmar
Mortal Realm: Aqshy
Gotrek Gurnisson (520)
Knight-Incantor (140)
- Spell: Azyrite Halo
Gavriel Sureheart (120)
Lord-Castellant (120)
- General
- Trait: We Cannot Fail  
- Artefact: God-forged Blade  
10 x Liberators (200)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 2x Grandhammers
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers
5 x Judicators (160)
- Boltstorm Crossbows
- 1x Thunderbolt Crossbows
3 x Aetherwings (50)
3 x Vanguard-Raptors with Hurricane Crossbows (140)
10 x Evocators (440)
- 10x Grandstaves
- Lore of Invigoration: Celestial Blades

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 106
 

Your Gotrek looks cool, good effort!
Is the list for a tournament? Have you had much practice with it?

Also any chance we can get A*********e added to the swear filter?

[AdamR]

Double trouble....

 

Edited October 29, 2019 by AdamR
Double Post

[Mark Williams]

4 minutes ago, relic456 said:

Oh they 100% weren't thinking about it, hence the confusion.  But until they fix it we're stuck with what the ability says and I think @PJetski has the best summary: "The bonus is active at all times until you satisfy the condition to disable it."

But from a grammatical standpoint, both views can be equally right, which is my point. Whatever conclusion you come to is just an opinion based on what you feel the default state is. I’m not saying one is wrong and the other is right. I’m saying both look correct to me, depending on one’s point of view. When I’m faced with that level of doubt, I don’t go with the one that would give me a huge advantage just because I want it.

[Kodos der Henker]

11 minutes ago, PJetski said:

The bonus is active at all times until you satisfy the condition to disable it

This is not what the text is saying

you add 6" if you previously fulfilled the requirement

English is not my native language, so please explain me how an "if" requirement combined with past tense can be seen as "always active until you disable it"

2 minutes ago, PJetski said:

There have been many opportunities over the past 16 months for them to change it

maybe no one considered a change as for the designers it is very clear

[Mark Williams]

5 minutes ago, PJetski said:

Why would you assume the writers of the game got their own rule wrong? Rather than trying to guess their intent, isn't it more reasonable to assume they wrote the rule the way they wanted it to be used? There have been many opportunities over the past 16 months for them to change it.

Rules work the way they are written. You can't play a game when everyone is trying to interpret the rules in whatever way they think it is supposed to work.

I don’t think they worded it “wrong”. I think they didn’t consider the situation, and worded it to account for the shooting phase only. From the standpoint that it would only be used in one phase, I think they worded it perfectly right.

As to the rest of your argument, you’re assuming that I agree with your point of view and that I’m just grasping at straws or something. I’m not doing that. The rule is worded too vaguely, period. It’s open ended as to what should happen.

[schwabbele]

Someone should just post it on Facebook then all will cry and say stormcast op and imba ->  we should have the faq/nerf in no time  

[Nizrah]

How does Stormbound blade explosive atacks work with Single-mined Fury trait?

 

[schwabbele]

You  add 2 more attacks and hope for 6s?

[Nizrah]

5 minutes ago, schwabbele said:

You  add 2 more attacks and hope for 6s?

Its artefact. SMF give 1d on 6 on hit.

[schwabbele]

Yes but you need some sort of attacks to roll for a hit. So you add 2 more and have 2 more chances of the 6s effect to trigger 

[Nizrah]

What? Stormbound blade explode on 6, giving you 3 wounds roll not one. Does this mean each of this three get +1d or only 1

[schwabbele]

My bad, confused with stormrage blade  

[Turragor]

Big tourney in a month. Want to take SC (as I do best with them). Want to try lyzrdskynyrds.

Should I run this list:

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
Drakesworn Templar (460)
- Storm Lance
Lord-Castellant (120)
Knight-Incantor (140)
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers
5 x Judicators (160)
- Skybolt Bows
- 1x Shockbolt Bows
5 x Judicators (160)
- Skybolt Bows
- 1x Shockbolt Bows
6 x Desolators (600)
3 x Aetherwings (50)
3 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (170)
Dais Arcanum (30)
Malevolent Maelstrom (10)
 

Where I try my best to act normal and balanced, or do I tweak it to fulfill my fetish of taking a dragon and the celestant prime at all times?:

 

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
Drakesworn Templar (460)
- Storm Lance
Lord-Castellant (120)
Knight-Incantor (140)
Celestant-Prime (340)
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers
6 x Desolators (600)
Dais Arcanum (30)
Malevolent Maelstrom (10)

 

Dare I be full "DragonAutist" ?

 

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
Lord-Celestant on Stardrake (560)
- Celestine Hammer
Drakesworn Templar (460)
- Storm Lance
Skink Starpriest (80)
- Allies
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers
6 x Desolators (600)

[Hodges]

9 hours ago, PJetski said:

Using the Long Shot bonus does not prevent movement. The ability would tell you if it did that.

The bonus is active at all times until you satisfy the condition to disable it.

The phase order is irrelevant - if they wanted it to only work in the shooting phase they would have worded it that way.

So according to the way you play this, you could move the unit in the movement phase every single turn, but then also get the +6” of range every hero phase for having not moved in the movement phase every single turn. And that doesn’t seem off to you? 

Anyway I’m done. @PJetski you are completely incapable of having a discussion with, you have such a clear vested interest in the rule working a certain way. The fact that you used to find the rule ambiguous enough to play the conservative option speaks volumes. As does the fact that you are now entirely unwilling to even recognise the opposite point of view and resort to insults. Massively disingenuous.

 

On a different note, that Gotrek looks awesome @Mark Williams, big fan. List looks cool, bit of a Gav bomb to alpha. Let’s Gotrek get up the field a bit safer while they deal with all the models in their lines. Let us know how it goes.

[PJetski]

4 minutes ago, Hodges said:

So according to the way you play this, you could move the unit in the movement phase every single turn, but then also get the +6” of range every hero phase for having not moved in the movement phase every single turn. And that doesn’t seem off to you? 

Anyway I’m done. @PJetski you are completely incapable of having a discussion with, you have such a clear vested interest in the rule working a certain way. The fact that you used to find the rule ambiguous enough to play the conservative option speaks volumes. As does the fact that you are now entirely unwilling to even recognise the opposite point of view and resort to insults. Massively disingenuous.

No, it doesn't seem off at all. There are plenty of weird rules in AOS; Longshot is not very peculiar in a game where Aetherwings break almost every rule of movement and charging.

I did not consider it ambiguous; I previously played it 24" to avoid having arguments.

I understand the argument against it but I don't agree with it in the slightest so why would I recognize it as a valid argument? 

[Mark Williams]

1 hour ago, PJetski said:

No, it doesn't seem off at all. There are plenty of weird rules in AOS; Longshot is not very peculiar in a game where Aetherwings break almost every rule of movement and charging.

I did not consider it ambiguous; I previously played it 24" to avoid having arguments.

I understand the argument against it but I don't agree with it in the slightest so why would I recognize it as a valid argument? 

That’s all well and good. My issue with you from the start is that regardless of your conviction, you are no more of an authority on how it should be played than any one else. Every time the topic comes up, you respond to people like it’s not even up for debate. You shouldn’t do that when there hasn’t been an official ruling and you’re basically just acting like you have the inside pulse on what GW intended. You don’t have that. All you have is a really strong opinion and a willingness to argue anyone into the ground who disagrees with you. At some point I will get exhausted going back and forth on this with you and give up. But that’s a really poor strategy for you to deal with people in your life...

Edited October 29, 2019 by Mark Williams

[Coolwood]

Can we agree to move on now, it’s got boring just watching this go round in circles for days on end. It’s literally a pointless discussion how it is now and we are just wasting energy on something that does not matter. Accept there are differing opinions and can we move on please....

Edited October 29, 2019 by Coolwood

[Horseburner]

1 hour ago, Coolwood said:

Can we agree to move on now, it’s got boring just watching this go round in circles for days on end. It’s literally a pointless discussion how it is now and we are just wasting energy on something that does not matter. Accept there are differing opinions and can we move on please....

I understand what you're trying to do but what should we discuss if not things like these? I find this to be a rather interesting topic since it's a thing that comes up ALOT where I play. Just take the discussion wherever you want it, instead of pointing it out.

 

I should say that I just started my own SE army. I'm kinda on the fence on the whole thing though.

[armisael]

Don’t expect FAQ for Longstrike. This question was raised since day one that they was released. And there are still no FAQ for it yet.

[l1censetochill]

45 minutes ago, Turragor said:

Big tourney in a month. Want to take SC (as I do best with them). Want to try lyzrdskynyrds.

Should I run this list:

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
Drakesworn Templar (460)
- Storm Lance
Lord-Castellant (120)
Knight-Incantor (140)
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers
5 x Judicators (160)
- Skybolt Bows
- 1x Shockbolt Bows
5 x Judicators (160)
- Skybolt Bows
- 1x Shockbolt Bows
6 x Desolators (600)
3 x Aetherwings (50)
3 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (170)
Dais Arcanum (30)
Malevolent Maelstrom (10)

Only quoted the first list but wanted to comment on all the others - much as I was interested in the heated (and still ongoing) debate about Longstrike range, hopefully some list discussion and dissection can turn things in a more productive direction, as it's starting to feel like everyone is just talking in circles.

My first question on the lists you're proposing is: what Stormhost are you planning on running, and how do you envision the list working? I'm still a relative newbie compared to some here, but I feel like the list is trying to do too much of everything, and as a result is lacking focus. You've got the Templar and Desolators, which are good mobile anvils that are quite killy, but not good enough to win games without serious support. You've got some shooting from Judicators and Longstrikes, but not enough to make a real dent in enemy armies, and Judicators just don't seem like they do enough for their points period.  Aetherwings are only really useful when you want to protect a big unit of Longstrikes, but will be pretty useless standing next to 3. And you've got the Incantor with Dais Arcanum and Maelstrom, which feel like they're just tacked on for points. The Incantor is useful, but pretty much only for the auto-unbind. On their own, they're not a good enough spellcaster to make endless spells worth it unless you're taking Everblaze Comet and deploying them out of unbind range. And even then, you're not going to have a magic phase that can compete with any of the real casting-heavy army.

And that's how I'd view this list - probably fun, and might steal a game or two, but instead of trying to do a little bit of everything and ending up mediocre, it's better to commit fully to one thing and build around it. If you want the Stardrake and some Dracoths on the board, I'd look at one of the following lists instead:

*****

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Anvils of the Heldenhammer

Leaders
Drakesworn Templar (460)
- General
- Storm Lance
- Trait: Deathly Aura
- Artefact: Soulthief
- Mount Trait: Storm-winged
Lord-Relictor (100)
Lord-Castellant (120)

Battleline
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield

Units
2 x Concussors (240)
12 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (680)
3 x Aetherwings (50)
3 x Aetherwings (50)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 103

*****

This one is simple - the Templar is a pure distraction Carnifex  that you buff with the Castellant and hurl across the table at the opponent, forcing them to deal with it. The Concussors serve a similar purpose and can go in with the Templar or do their own thing, slowly chewing through units while disrupting pile-ins and pinning units were possible. The rest of the list is standard Shootcast - shoot twice with the Longstrikes every turn and hope you take off enough models to get the  win. Probably not as efficient as a list that replaces the Templar, 3 Longstrikes and the Concussors with an Azyros and 6 Desolators, but it could still work... and while it's probably an edge case that you're unlikely to use due to generating only 1CP per turn, I like the idea of using the Anvils command ability on the Stardrake to let it pile in and swallow 3 extra dudes during the hero phase. Just for funsies.

I tried to come up with another army more focused on the Stardake and Desolator synergy, and came up with the following:

*****

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
Mortal Realm: Aqshy

Leaders
Lord-Celestant on Stardrake (560)
- General
- Celestine Hammer
- Trait: Staunch Defender
- Artefact: Ignax's Scales
- Mount Trait: Storm-winged
Lord-Castellant (120)
Knight-Incantor (140)
- Spell: Azyrite Halo

Battleline
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield

Units
6 x Desolators (600)
3 x Vanguard-Raptors with Hurricane Crossbows (140)
3 x Vanguard-Raptors with Hurricane Crossbows (140)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 99

*****

I feel a lot less confident in this one, but it's what I came up with. Basically, your Stardrake and Desolators in this list, powered up with the Lord-Celestant's command ability and Staunch Defender, are actually pretty scary, so they can take up central position, spit mortal wounds at range, threaten objectives and dare the opponent to charge them. If you need to split them up, the Desolators can still get to a 2+ save with the Castellant's lantern. The Raptors with Hurricanes are there to deepstrike into positions and shoot down screens/thin out hordes for the big boys. I'd usually prefer to use Ballistas for this purpose, but points are already very tight in this list and you're always going to be so light on bodies due to the Stardrake + Desolators that I felt the Hurricane Raptors made more sense.

Hope these list ideas help, or at least inspire some thought/discussion. I definitely don't think they're great or super-competitive, but in a list where we definitely want to take the Stardrake and some Dracoths they're the best I could come up with in, like, 40 minutes of brainstorming  while half-watching Netflix. Would love to hear other peoples' thoughts - "listbuilding challenges" like this where we're forcing ourselves to take certain off-meta units and make the most of them are some of my favorite things to think about in AOS!

[XReN]

5 hours ago, Horseburner said:

I understand what you're trying to do but what should we discuss if not things like these? I find this to be a rather interesting topic since it's a thing that comes up ALOT where I play. Just take the discussion wherever you want it, instead of pointing it out.

 

I should say that I just started my own SE army. I'm kinda on the fence on the whole thing though.

We could discuss lists, hobbying, lore, transporting armies, there won't be an agreement and everything there is to say was already said. Move on.

[XReN]

@Nizrah
You get to make 3 wound rolls, 1 of which has increased damage

Edited October 30, 2019 by XReN

[Coolwood]

5 hours ago, l1censetochill said:

Only quoted the first list but wanted to comment on all the others - much as I was interested in the heated (and still ongoing) debate about Longstrike range, hopefully some list discussion and dissection can turn things in a more productive direction, as it's starting to feel like everyone is just talking in circles.

My first question on the lists you're proposing is: what Stormhost are you planning on running, and how do you envision the list working? I'm still a relative newbie compared to some here, but I feel like the list is trying to do too much of everything, and as a result is lacking focus. You've got the Templar and Desolators, which are good mobile anvils that are quite killy, but not good enough to win games without serious support. You've got some shooting from Judicators and Longstrikes, but not enough to make a real dent in enemy armies, and Judicators just don't seem like they do enough for their points period.  Aetherwings are only really useful when you want to protect a big unit of Longstrikes, but will be pretty useless standing next to 3. And you've got the Incantor with Dais Arcanum and Maelstrom, which feel like they're just tacked on for points. The Incantor is useful, but pretty much only for the auto-unbind. On their own, they're not a good enough spellcaster to make endless spells worth it unless you're taking Everblaze Comet and deploying them out of unbind range. And even then, you're not going to have a magic phase that can compete with any of the real casting-heavy army.

And that's how I'd view this list - probably fun, and might steal a game or two, but instead of trying to do a little bit of everything and ending up mediocre, it's better to commit fully to one thing and build around it. If you want the Stardrake and some Dracoths on the board, I'd look at one of the following lists instead:

*****

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Anvils of the Heldenhammer

Leaders
Drakesworn Templar (460)
- General
- Storm Lance
- Trait: Deathly Aura
- Artefact: Soulthief
- Mount Trait: Storm-winged
Lord-Relictor (100)
Lord-Castellant (120)

Battleline
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield

Units
2 x Concussors (240)
12 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (680)
3 x Aetherwings (50)
3 x Aetherwings (50)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 103

*****

This one is simple - the Templar is a pure distraction Carnifex  that you buff with the Castellant and hurl across the table at the opponent, forcing them to deal with it. The Concussors serve a similar purpose and can go in with the Templar or do their own thing, slowly chewing through units while disrupting pile-ins and pinning units were possible. The rest of the list is standard Shootcast - shoot twice with the Longstrikes every turn and hope you take off enough models to get the  win. Probably not as efficient as a list that replaces the Templar, 3 Longstrikes and the Concussors with an Azyros and 6 Desolators, but it could still work... and while it's probably an edge case that you're unlikely to use due to generating only 1CP per turn, I like the idea of using the Anvils command ability on the Stardrake to let it pile in and swallow 3 extra dudes during the hero phase. Just for funsies.

I tried to come up with another army more focused on the Stardake and Desolator synergy, and came up with the following:

*****

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
Mortal Realm: Aqshy

Leaders
Lord-Celestant on Stardrake (560)
- General
- Celestine Hammer
- Trait: Staunch Defender
- Artefact: Ignax's Scales
- Mount Trait: Storm-winged
Lord-Castellant (120)
Knight-Incantor (140)
- Spell: Azyrite Halo

Battleline
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield

Units
6 x Desolators (600)
3 x Vanguard-Raptors with Hurricane Crossbows (140)
3 x Vanguard-Raptors with Hurricane Crossbows (140)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 99

*****

I feel a lot less confident in this one, but it's what I came up with. Basically, your Stardrake and Desolators in this list, powered up with the Lord-Celestant's command ability and Staunch Defender, are actually pretty scary, so they can take up central position, spit mortal wounds at range, threaten objectives and dare the opponent to charge them. If you need to split them up, the Desolators can still get to a 2+ save with the Castellant's lantern. The Raptors with Hurricanes are there to deepstrike into positions and shoot down screens/thin out hordes for the big boys. I'd usually prefer to use Ballistas for this purpose, but points are already very tight in this list and you're always going to be so light on bodies due to the Stardrake + Desolators that I felt the Hurricane Raptors made more sense.

Hope these list ideas help, or at least inspire some thought/discussion. I definitely don't think they're great or super-competitive, but in a list where we definitely want to take the Stardrake and some Dracoths they're the best I could come up with in, like, 40 minutes of brainstorming  while half-watching Netflix. Would love to hear other peoples' thoughts - "listbuilding challenges" like this where we're forcing ourselves to take certain off-meta units and make the most of them are some of my favorite things to think about in AOS!

I have tried and failed to make any decent lists with the drake - it’s quite frustrating. One idea I had was to run a ballista core alongside it but then that leaves you with barely any units to take objectives. 

[Corcaedus]

Question for you guys : Bless Weapons prayer gives you two hits on an unmodified 6 to hit, but how does it interact with longstrikes ?

I know this is probably not the best prayer for them (as you would prefer translocation) but what happens on a 6 to hit ? 4 MW ? 1 wound and 2 MW ? I'd go with the second solution. 

Someone mentionned AotH special WD units and battalion a little while ago, i'll post it at the end of the afternoon if I don't forget it. 

Edited October 30, 2019 by Corcaedus

[Karragon]

6 minutes ago, Corcaedus said:

Question for you guys : Bless Weapons prayer gives you two hits on an unmodified 6 to hit, but how does it interact with longstrikes ?

I know this is probably not the best prayer for them (as you would prefer translocation) but what happens on a 6 to hit ? 4 MW ? 1 wound and 2 MW ? I'd go with the second solution. 

Someone mentionned AotH special WD units and battalion a little while ago, i'll post it at the end of the afternoon if I don't forget it. 

You get 2 mortal wounds and 1 normal hit from a single 6 in that situation