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AoS 2 - Sylvaneth Discussion


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31 minutes ago, AaronWilson said:

 It's a shame to see Kurnoths with greatbows staying at 200, but maybe with re-roll 1s from a Arch Revenant and some other new things, they could see a return. 

A bad unit that starts to work with other unit's buff is still a bad unit. Instead of hoping that KHwBows will work with AR I'd rather take KHwScythes, boost them with AR and have a guaranteed killing machines. I don't think 'other' battletome's features will make bows any better (same with Tree-Revenants). If it's artifact or a batallion then it takes a slot you would use for boosting already better units like dryads and KHwSandS. I might sound bitter but I'm really disappointed they don't fix the very obvious things people keep complaining about. Instead they had probably focused on Wyldwoods and Allegiance which was ALREADY great (hope at least they don't break them). 

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I can't wait for the box... So I decided to make my own kitbashed Arch-Revenant! VID_20190430_181542.mp4

You’re entitled to your opinion. But I’ve got plenty of experience using everything you claim isn’t a viable unit. I’ve been playing Sylvaneth since before our Battletome dropped through every iterati

I’ve played the Drycha/Ancient dreadwood combo for ages now, and it’s super viable at 2k. Since I’ve finished painting up Alarielle, I’m thinking of amending my list a bit and trying the Alarielle+Dur

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7 minutes ago, Aryann said:

A bad unit that starts to work with other unit's buff is still a bad unit. Instead of hoping that KHwBows will work with AR I'd rather take KHwScythes, boost them with AR and have a guaranteed killing machines. I don't think 'other' battletome's features will make bows any better (same with Tree-Revenants). If it's artifact or a batallion then it takes a slot you would use for boosting already better units like dryads and KHwSandS. I might sound bitter but I'm really disappointed they don't fix the very obvious things people keep complaining about. Instead they had probably focused on Wyldwoods and Allegiance which was ALREADY great (hope at least they don't break them). 

I disagree, look at Stormfiend, they are pretty bad by themself. Give them a engineer with more more more warp power to let them reroll hit and wound, give them warp spark token for +1 dmg, give them vigordust injector for +1 hit. They become pretty amazing. Look at the last Slaanesh book, unit are very overcosted and don't have amazing stats. But allegence make ennemies fight last, they can get dp like candy and summon a lots. Witch Aelves are nothing that amazing by themself either without the buff, the 5-6 reroll after save, immu to battleshock, mindrazor... I honestly think allegiance ability can be very amazing and make bad unit very competitive.

Kurnoth Hunter with Bow is still the best ranged option for the Sylvaneth, and a lots of thing in the meta NEED ranged to be deal with right now. After seeing how people was crying when they saw Skaven warscroll nerfed before seeing the battletome, and now it's one of the best army. I cross my finger and wait for the battletome to see the full picture, before saying something is bad.

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47 minutes ago, Aryann said:

I might sound bitter but I'm really disappointed they don't fix the very obvious things people keep complaining about.

That is what they did. People complained about shooting, and shooting got weaker (KH going up to 220 points as a reaction to GA: Order lists running Hurricanum with as many bow hunters as would fit). Last year, we got additional penalties to shooting in the form of Citadel Woods, LoS and shooting into whatever is within 3" of the shooting unit.

Mortal Wounds are the new shooting is my cynical outlook of it. Shooting has enough of a burden on it that you're hard pressed not to take something that puts out Mortal Wounds (Evocators, Drycha, Knight-Incantor and comet), since it's a better return than, say 6 shots with bows, when their expected output with LoS falls roughly into the same category as Arcane Bolt. That said, they have more utility than just their shooting, even if it's shared utility with the other variants.

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Shooting needs a buff yes. Not only the point increases destroyed it, but like it was stated before BLoS from citadel Woods and plenty of absolute melee monster that can charge turn 1 with flying (eels, TZ, etc), or very durable units where shooting won't be enough to stop them. 

It's too soon to speak, but i expect allegiance, wargroves and battallions to change a lot of how the army is played.

 

About swords against scythes. Even with the change i don't expect to see swords except on MSU. Scythes get more benefits from the +1 attack than swords, but the 2" range was always the dealbreaker, and a 6-9 man kurnouth unit will use the new command ability much better than swords. I am hoping that some allegiance/wargrove/battalion or whatever improve the shooting capabilities of kurnouth hunters to be honest.

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3 hours ago, Alezya said:

Nah, I played Dreadwood several times, I'm not misreading. ^^ 

I was talking about tree revenants because I was asking myself the point of playing a unit of 30 tree revenants = 420 pts.

You’re misunderstanding. I don’t mean you personally, but rather the generic “you”. As in “one might take 30 tree revenants because one misread Dreadwood, etc”. Because I can’t think of a valid reason to take that many. 

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56 minutes ago, Kaylethia said:

Mortal Wounds are the new shooting is my cynical outlook of it. 

That’s consistent with conversations I’ve had recently. 

Our local FEC player has been running hordes (units of 6 and 9) of Crypt Flayers with Crypt Infernal Courtiers to keep them coming back. Between the flying, mortal wounds on a 6 to hit (that don’t stop the rest of the attack sequence) and a few other features, those are steamrollering a lot of lists. The only way to survive is to bubble wrap key models in chaff infantry and hope you can win the attrition game.

 

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56 minutes ago, Kaylethia said:

Mortal Wounds are the new shooting is my cynical outlook of it. 

That’s consistent with conversations I’ve had recently. 

Our local FEC player has been running hordes (units of 6 and 9) of Crypt Flayers with Crypt Infernal Courtiers to keep them coming back. Between the flying, mortal wounds on a 6 to hit (that don’t stop the rest of the attack sequence) and a few other features, those are steamrollering a lot of lists. The only way to survive is to bubble wrap key models in chaff infantry and hope you can win the attrition game.

 

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49 minutes ago, Kairos Tejedestinos said:

Right now ? Yeah no reason at all. With the battletome, maybe? If i worked at games workshop i would force people to switch from dryads to spites and revenants for sure. :P

I don't think that "force switch" is the right word. I you look back at what has been done to FEC and Skaven, people didn't get forced. They had NEW opportunities to play differently :  with hordes, with elite, with Behemoth., with mix.... My guess is that it'll be the very same with Sylva 2.0: armies themed (bunch of hunters, bunch of dryads, bunch of trees, etc...)

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Hoping more units will become viable with the new tome. Will be nice to get Revs, Spites, Ancient and Drycha out on the table.

And to not have to go for the wargrove, 2wraith, acorn, verdant lineup.

 

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25 minutes ago, a74xhx said:

Hoping more units will become viable with the new tome. Will be nice to get Revs, Spites, Ancient and Drycha out on the table.

And to not have to go for the wargrove, 2wraith, acorn, verdant lineup.

 

Since when the heck was Drycha not viable by herself??

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39 minutes ago, Zanzou said:

Since when the heck was Drycha not viable by herself??

In my experience, Drycha is the behemoth that gets cut around 2k when you want to start fitting Alarielle and Durthu in your lists - you just don't have the points to spare on her - even though she's got really strong ranged options, her melee hits on 4s, which is really rather bad overall. All the other big trees hit on 3s, and even a normal Treelord is cheaper. It comes down to not being able to fit everything you'd want at 2k, and then taking the best options you can, I think.

Anything below 2k, I want Drycha for the options she provides, and above 2k I'd happily slot her in, though. She is my favorite Really Mad/Sad Beehive Lady.

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7 hours ago, AaronWilson said:

Tree Revenants at 80 points being able to teleport anywhere on the board are like mini heart renders, super valid for the cheap point cost. It's a shame to see Kurnoths with greatbows staying at 200, but maybe with re-roll 1s from a Arch Revenant and some other new things, they could see a return. 

The challenge will be if we keep LOS blocking. Heartrenders are great because they stay in reserve. If you can easily pick off the tree revs it will be less impactful (probably still good though). 

 

Such a cool rule.

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1 hour ago, overtninja said:

In my experience, Drycha is the behemoth that gets cut around 2k when you want to start fitting Alarielle and Durthu in your lists - you just don't have the points to spare on her - even though she's got really strong ranged options, her melee hits on 4s, which is really rather bad overall. All the other big trees hit on 3s, and even a normal Treelord is cheaper. It comes down to not being able to fit everything you'd want at 2k, and then taking the best options you can, I think.

Anything below 2k, I want Drycha for the options she provides, and above 2k I'd happily slot her in, though. She is my favorite Really Mad/Sad Beehive Lady.

I’ve played the Drycha/Ancient dreadwood combo for ages now, and it’s super viable at 2k. Since I’ve finished painting up Alarielle, I’m thinking of amending my list a bit and trying the Alarielle+Durthu combo for a bit. In all likelyhood I will probably settle on Alarielle + Drycha when it comes down to make a decision unless Durthu well outperforms my expectations.

Typically when I play, Drycha is a must have for her horde-clearing abilities.  I’ve only played her with flitterfuries one game and it seems the squirmlings are just flat-out better at removing huge blocks of troops. Causing a handlful of mortal wounds spread out across 5-8 units is nice, but as I said in a previous post Sylvaneth play best when we can fight asymmetrically. We throw the bulk of our army against 1-2 units, annihilate them, and then disappear and do the same thing  somewhere else.

Drycha fills this roll very well, because Alarielle/Durthu/TLA:(with Support)  are decent at killing anything with a wounds characteristic of 14-18. They struggle a bit when that wound count gets above that and can get bogged down in prolonged combat. Drycha can tear through a unit of 30-40 models in a single phase between MW, combat and battleshock. Sure she only hits on 4’s, but she’ll do an average of 21-3 mortal wounds to a unit of 30 in the shooting phase, and if she’s enraged she’s sporting 12 attacks with -1 rend. That’’s another 8 wounds or so on average. 30 wounds to a single unit before they can swing back is no joke. She can wipe whole units by herself if she manages to catch them in an isolated position. 
 

2 hours ago, a74xhx said:

Hoping more units will become viable with the new tome. Will be nice to get Revs, Spites, Ancient and Drycha out on the table.

 And to not have to go for the wargrove, 2wraith, acorn, verdant lineup.

 

7 hours ago, Aryann said:

A bad unit that starts to work with other unit's buff is still a bad unit. Instead of hoping that KHwBows will work with AR I'd rather take KHwScythes, boost them with AR and have a guaranteed killing machines. I don't think 'other' battletome's features will make bows any better (same with Tree-Revenants). If it's artifact or a batallion then it takes a slot you would use for boosting already better units like dryads and KHwSandS. I might sound bitter but I'm really disappointed they don't fix the very obvious things people keep complaining about. Instead they had probably focused on Wyldwoods and Allegiance which was ALREADY great (hope at least they don't break them). 

It’s comments like these I don’t get. Well, I get them, but I wholeheartedly blame the internet for them. Because I guarantee you neither of you have taken the time to sit down and make other playstyles/units work. Sometimes I think a certain segment of players wont be happy until every unit in our Battletome is Kurnoth Hunters with bows that shoot 120” on 2+/2+ RR 1’s with Mortal wounds on 4+ and do 27 damage at rend -1000. 

I’m being hyperbolic of course. 

The fact of the matter is Kurnoth hunters are pretty balanced as they are.  Swords are crazy awesome right now but only really good in groups of 3’s due to limited range. That means have more than 1 unit charge at a time is probably not a good idea, since with alternating activations the second unit is likely to lose 30%-60% of its damage output before it gets a chance to swing.

Hunters with scythes solves that probably with 2” meaning groups of 6-9 are totally viable, and positively EAT anything with saves at 4+ or better thanks to -2 rend, but plenty of units in the meta right now ignore rend which keeps them from being “absolutely mandatory”.

Bows too are decently balanced being that they have one of the longest ranges in the game. Most archery units have to get a lot closer before they an fire which leaves them open to a counter charge, Hunters with bows get almost 2 full turns of shooting before the enemy can close, and if the enemy does manage to close they’re 5 wounds apiece, likely 3+ save from being in cover (you should be in cover) rerolling all failed saves (thanks to the new wording) and doing mortal wounds on a 4+ per hunter. A normal ranged unit (like wanderers or Orruk arrowboyz) will absolutely evaporate if anything manages to close in combat with them.

Here’s a fun bit of math for you. If you count the 2 turns it takes for a unit to close with a group of hunters, you can easily get 9 wounds in at -1 rend, then surprise them by charging them after you shoot in the 3rd round instead of letting them charge you . That’s 3 rounds of shooting plus CC with stomps. A unit of 3 can do ~17 wounds to a unit before it gets the chance to swing if you activate them first. 

Oh, -1 to hit vs characters gotcha down? Protip: STOP SHOOTING AT CHARACTERS DUMMY.  T-revs are going to be our go-to for support character killing, Alarielle, Durthu or a treelords for monstrous character killing, drycha for hordes, ect ect.

Stop looking at every unit as a hammer: not every problem is a nail. You can wipe the opponents entire army and still lose the game on objectives. CC Damage output is an important part of winning games, but it’s not the only thing that matters.


 

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1 hour ago, Mirage8112 said:

I’ve played the Drycha/Ancient dreadwood combo for ages now, and it’s super viable at 2k. Since I’ve finished painting up Alarielle, I’m thinking of amending my list a bit and trying the Alarielle+Durthu combo for a bit. In all likelyhood I will probably settle on Alarielle + Drycha when it comes down to make a decision unless Durthu well outperforms my expectations.

Typically when I play, Drycha is a must have for her horde-clearing abilities.  I’ve only played her with flitterfuries one game and it seems the squirmlings are just flat-out better at removing huge blocks of troops. Causing a handlful of mortal wounds spread out across 5-8 units is nice, but as I said in a previous post Sylvaneth play best when we can fight asymmetrically. We throw the bulk of our army against 1-2 units, annihilate them, and then disappear and do the same thing  somewhere else.

Drycha fills this roll very well, because Alarielle/Durthu/TLA:(with Support)  are decent at killing anything with a wounds characteristic of 14-18. They struggle a bit when that wound count gets above that and can get bogged down in prolonged combat. Drycha can tear through a unit of 30-40 models in a single phase between MW, combat and battleshock. Sure she only hits on 4’s, but she’ll do an average of 21-3 mortal wounds to a unit of 30 in the shooting phase, and if she’s enraged she’s sporting 12 attacks with -1 rend. That’’s another 8 wounds or so on average. 30 wounds to a single unit before they can swing back is no joke. She can wipe whole units by herself if she manages to catch them in an isolated position. 
 

 

It’s comments like these I don’t get. Well, I get them, but I wholeheartedly blame the internet for them. Because I guarantee you neither of you have taken the time to sit down and make other playstyles/units work. Sometimes I think a certain segment of players wont be happy until every unit in our Battletome is Kurnoth Hunters with bows that shoot 120” on 2+/2+ RR 1’s with Mortal wounds on 4+ and do 27 damage at rend -1000. 

I’m being hyperbolic of course. 

The fact of the matter is Kurnoth hunters are pretty balanced as they are.  Swords are crazy awesome right now but only really good in groups of 3’s due to limited range. That means have more than 1 unit charge at a time is probably not a good idea, since with alternating activations the second unit is likely to lose 30%-60% of its damage output before it gets a chance to swing.

Hunters with scythes solves that probably with 2” meaning groups of 6-9 are totally viable, and positively EAT anything with saves at 4+ or better thanks to -2 rend, but plenty of units in the meta right now ignore rend which keeps them from being “absolutely mandatory”.

Bows too are decently balanced being that they have one of the longest ranges in the game. Most archery units have to get a lot closer before they an fire which leaves them open to a counter charge, Hunters with bows get almost 2 full turns of shooting before the enemy can close, and if the enemy does manage to close they’re 5 wounds apiece, likely 3+ save from being in cover (you should be in cover) rerolling all failed saves (thanks to the new wording) and doing mortal wounds on a 4+ per hunter. A normal ranged unit (like wanderers or Orruk arrowboyz) will absolutely evaporate if anything manages to close in combat with them.

Here’s a fun bit of math for you. If you count the 2 turns it takes for a unit to close with a group of hunters, you can easily get 9 wounds in at -1 rend, then surprise them by charging them after you shoot in the 3rd round instead of letting them charge you . That’s 3 rounds of shooting plus CC with stomps. A unit of 3 can do ~17 wounds to a unit before it gets the chance to swing if you activate them first. 

Oh, -1 to hit vs characters gotcha down? Protip: STOP SHOOTING AT CHARACTERS DUMMY.  T-revs are going to be our go-to for support character killing, Alarielle, Durthu or a treelords for monstrous character killing, drycha for hordes, ect ect.

Stop looking at every unit as a hammer: not every problem is a nail. You can wipe the opponents entire army and still lose the game on objectives. CC Damage output is an important part of winning games, but it’s not the only thing that matters.


 

As someone who doesn't get to play a lot of games compared to how much I read online this post really hit home with me.  Too often I want to put something together or I get the motivation to paint and I go online and read things like "'X'unit just sucks, if you aren't spamming 100 dryads you're doing it wrong".  I get some things are sub optimal and that's all good, but people post with such surety that things can and can't work.  Thanks for reminding me that if I want to run T-Revs and Bow Hunters as a core that I can and there may be a way to  do it with synergies and good game play that lets me have a decent chance to win.

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I've got to agree with a74xhx in the main; one-list armies are dull and not really what I want to play, so I also hope each of our options is just that - a viable option.

But I'm glad you made your points, Mirage. It's easy to look at a single unit through a narrow lens and judge it one way or another; we should all keep in mind the various aspects of the game and how any piece may fit into the larger picture.

When it's all said and done we know so little about the tome beyond warscrolls that our initial impressions are ultimately guesswork.

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1 hour ago, Mirage8112 said:

It’s comments like these I don’t get. Well, I get them, but I wholeheartedly blame the internet for them. Because I guarantee you neither of you have taken the time to sit down and make other playstyles/units work.

You are wrong.

It's not about malice or grumbling. I've played tons of games that require strategy and tactic. Whenever you have to decide between units that work most of the time (Scythes/Swords, dryads) vs units that need special conditions, opportunities, supports, additional steps, in most cases it tuns out that if you don't want to gumble, you should take the first solution.

Now count how much damage will you provide with Kurnoth Hunters with Swords for the same points as Bows. Go ahead. Show your math. And yes, make a second equation for fighting versus heroes. 😀

With Tree-Revenants the thing is, that if you do not face totally careless player that leaves VP unguarded or with 1 skinny wizard they are close to useless. Whenever I face my AoS sparring partner, my Tree-Revenants are being obliterated. I win most of games, it's not my lack of skill. It's their survivability on one end and their poor dmg outcome on the other. First to die, last to kill sth. It could've been easily fixed. Instead we have a unit that is usefull, unless your opponent will attack it. Which he will.

There is no need for holding hands and comforting each other. Sometimes GW does a good job with rules, sometimes it doesn't If it did always we wouldn't need general's handbooks and erratas, would we? I'd rather tell what is on my mind so maybe, just maybe, my voice is heard, and next time they will make things right. I'm not oracle or all-knowing but if you keep hearing the same thing over and over again that TR suck, maybe consider that something must be going on.

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People are winning major tournaments with Tree-Revenants and Bow Kurnoths. There is a Youtube Sylvaneth tactics video where they talk about it. It's just different playstyle and requires more skill to play, than just throwing 6 Scythes to your opponent face. Best Sylvaneth lists that are winning big tournaments are defensive, you draw your opponent to the woods, where you have cover and can MW them.

So if best players are using Bows and are winning, then it means the unit is good, if you think otherwise you are probably lacking skill or your local meta is very specific. In these rend ignoring times scythes are the worst pick, even before swords have been buffed.

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1 hour ago, Aryann said:

You are wrong.

It's not about malice or grumbling. I've played tons of games that require strategy and tactic. Whenever you have to decide between units that work most of the time (Scythes/Swords, dryads) vs units that need special conditions, opportunities, supports, additional steps, in most cases it tuns out that if you don't want to gumble, you should take the first solution.

You’re entitled to your opinion. But I’ve got plenty of experience using everything you claim isn’t a viable unit. I’ve been playing Sylvaneth since before our Battletome dropped through every iteration of AoS since the game launched. I’ve played more games than I can count. 

I’ve lost 2 games. Total.  

Both were at Adepticon last year. 1 was a minor loss (due mainly to failing a 3” charge on my part) and the other was to the guy who won best death general who finished 10th overall. Don’t pretend that I don’t know what I’m talking about just because you have an opinion. 

Bad generals do not know how to exploit an opponents mistakes.
Average generals use their strongest unit to take advantage of their opponents mistakes.
Good generals use every tool in their toolkit to take advantage of every opportunity their opponent gives them.
Great generals know how to make opportunities happen on the field. 
 

1 hour ago, Aryann said:

Now count how much damage will you provide with Kurnoth Hunters with Swords for the same points as Bows. Go ahead. Show your math. And yes, make a second equation for fighting versus heroes. 😀


I know how much damage Kurnoth hunters do. Search through my posts on this forum. I’ve got pages and pages of mathhammer for very unit in our Battletome and most every other unit in the game.  If you won games solely on how much damage you do, you’d have a point, but thats not what wins games. Capturing objectives wins games. 
 

1 hour ago, Aryann said:

With Tree-Revenants the thing is, that if you do not face totally careless player that leaves VP unguarded or with 1 skinny wizard they are close to useless. Whenever I face my AoS sparring partner, my Tree-Revenants are being obliterated. I win most of games, it's not my lack of skill. It's their survivability on one end and their poor dmg outcome on the other. First to die, last to kill sth. It could've been easily fixed. Instead we have a unit that is usefull, unless your opponent will attack it. Which he will.


My T-revs get obliterated too. That’s what they’re for. I don’t know how many times or different ways  I can say it: chaff wins games. If you don’t understand why that’s useful or what that means, that’s 75% of your problem right there.   

 

1 hour ago, Aryann said:

There is no need for holding hands and comforting each other. Sometimes GW does a good job with rules, sometimes it doesn't. If it did always we wouldn't need general's handbooks and erratas, would we? I'd rather tell what is on my mind so maybe, just maybe, my voice is heard, and next time they will make things right. I'm not oracle or all-knowing but if you keep hearing the same thing over and over again that TR suck, maybe consider that something must be going on.


For years my wife hated onions.

I love two things: cooking and wargaming. So when I’m not painting, I’m usually cooking. I’d make soufflés, pasta, north African tagines, braised chicken: you name it. After a couple of years of picking the onions out of the food, I convinced her to try it with the onions. The look on her face was priceless.

She absolutely loved it. Now onions are one of her favorite foods.

She realized that she thought she hated onions because her mother hates onions and didn’t know how to cook them properly. One she found somebody capable of using the ingredient properly she discovered that it was nowhere as terrible as she thought it would be. Moral of the story? You’re probably doing it wrong and taking advice from people who are doing it wrong.  

I’ll also say that you might be bad at using them because they just don't fit your playstyle. From what your saying you see the combat phase as being the only way to win games. If you see T-revs as only being used in combat that make sense. 

I’m a Dreadwood player. I have 5 units of spite revenants that I’m fairly pleased with how they perform in game. I like the way they play. I’ve also played the other battalion that’s everybody plays: Gnarlroot. It’s ok and I’ll play it occasionally for something different, but I don’t like it as much. I’m not going to come here and say that “Gnarlroot is worthless and nobody should play it and only play Dreadwood”.   Because I can clearly see somethings value even if it doesn’t fit my playstyle. I’ve also be interested in playing Ironbark and was working toward painting an Ironbark list before the news of the new BT dropped. Like I said, I play using (according to you) terrible units. I also smash face with them. 

There are plenty of viable ways to play this army. You want to load your list up with KH/dryads spam and nothing else? Go ahead. It’s your army: you do you Boo-boo. But I’d discourage you from telling people that “your way” is only viable way to play and unintentionally talking people out of stronger/different playstyles. 

That’s the last I’ll say about that.

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1 hour ago, Jazarith said:

As someone who doesn't get to play a lot of games compared to how much I read online this post really hit home with me.  Too often I want to put something together or I get the motivation to paint and I go online and read things like "'X'unit just sucks, if you aren't spamming 100 dryads you're doing it wrong".  I get some things are sub optimal and that's all good, but people post with such surety that things can and can't work.  Thanks for reminding me that if I want to run T-Revs and Bow Hunters as a core that I can and there may be a way to  do it with synergies and good game play that lets me have a decent chance to win.

That's actually want i am thinking. Drycha for horde clearing, since hunters aren't that efficient at that, tree revenants as chaff disposable units and a lot of kurnouth hunters with bows and the new character to reroll 1s on them. Hopefully next month when i get my boxes i can start playtesting it.

 

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1 hour ago, Aryann said:

Now count how much damage will you provide with Kurnoth Hunters with Swords for the same points as Bows. Go ahead. Show your math. And yes, make a second equation for fighting versus heroes. 😀

 

I can show you the math how many damage Kurnoth Hunter with Swords will do to a gristlegore general, ZERO.  🤣

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