AoS 2 - Sylvaneth Discussion

[King Dust]

I bet the higher points for hunters are a sign they'll be conditional battleline. With a 3+ save, envoys, healing from the new bug cav, and whatever buffs and synergies we get to keep on arch-rev, etc. A list of 15-18 Hunters with support seems like it could be pretty nasty.

And bow hunters still have a place in that list, sitting on your home objective providing long range support wherever it's needed and protecting backline casters or just reliably holding that objective from any would be ambushes.

[Nerdkingdan]

Without the allegiance abilities, we can’t know if this card is good or bad.  For example easy access to +1 to hit….   Yes the card alone is bad, but I’m still optimistic.

[Jaskier]

As much as I wish bow Kurnoths were on a 3+ to-hit and maybe with -2 Rend, when you look at how durable they are it makes sense why their damage is quite anemic compared to units like Vanguard-Raptors. Raptors are highly lethal but also super fragile, and are going to fold if anything catches them. Bow Kurnoths can happily contest a backfield objective thanks to their three models counting as six and their stock 3+ save, meaning if you can contest from cover then few things are going to dislodge them easily. Raptors also oft die after a few rounds of shooting - if they don't it usually means they did their job too well! - whereas bow Kurnoths are more likely to survive a game and thus contribute damage through all five rounds.

In that sense, it makes sense why bow Kurnoths are designed the way they are and priced the way they are. How good they really are will come down to allegiance stuff as always. 

[Landohammer]

Thoughts on Bow Kurnoth. 

There is no getting around it. They are still trash.  Regarding potential allegiance abilities: People said the same thing about Crossboos but they are still terrible (and they are a brand new kit!). There is only so much you can do with a bad warscroll. I see no reason to take these guys over Gossamids, unless there is a double tap or hero phase command ability available to double their use. 

HOWEVER the standard 3+ save is absolutely HUUUUGEE for the melee versions of kurnoth, putting you on a 2+ in cover or with All out Defense. New Envoys also has some potential under the right circumstances: Imagine charging two big units of Kurnoth into combat, popping all out attack and hitting the 4+ so they both benefit.

Previously we had to jump through a lot of hoops (TLA, camping in cover, or not piling in) to get to the 3+. So we were very vulnerable to a lot of low rend attacks. Now we can get to a "real" 2+ so rend 0 and rend 1 aren't as effective vs us. 

 

 

[velocitydog]

The 3+ save is great, but with a base 4+ to hit and -1 rend I'm uncertain of how useful they will be.  A unit of three sniping from a backfield objective isn't a bad option but if forces you to burn a CP for a decent chance to hit.  Maybe if arch-revenants ability is expanded to give +1 to shooting or melee.  A unit of 3 with 9 shots re-rolling 1's wouldn't be bad.

[Aezeal]

7 hours ago, velocitydog said:

The 3+ save is great, but with a base 4+ to hit and -1 rend I'm uncertain of how useful they will be.  A unit of three sniping from a backfield objective isn't a bad option but if forces you to burn a CP for a decent chance to hit.  Maybe if arch-revenants ability is expanded to give +1 to shooting or melee.  A unit of 3 with 9 shots re-rolling 1's wouldn't be bad.

A big unit next to an arch revenant and spending a point for all out attack can do some damage sure... but thing is.. that was already the case and wasn't really good enough and now it's just more expensive.

Edited May 10, 2022 by Aezeal

[Landohammer]

Yea there just isn't a need for tanky archers. Especially when we have Gossamids for ~40 less points. And gossamids have a 24" threat range which isn't exactly shabby. 

 

[Nixon]

I know this is a hard one, but coming back from a hiatus and finding out a new tome is on its way, what do you think will be good baseline units for an up to date competitive list?

[velocitydog]

Yeah, I admit it's a stretch.  Just too many other better things for the points.

[Landohammer]

3 hours ago, Nixon said:

I know this is a hard one, but coming back from a hiatus and finding out a new tome is on its way, what do you think will be good baseline units for an up to date competitive list?

Impossible to say. We have literally only seen 2 warscrolls. One was great and one was terrible lol. Our entire battleline system and allegiance abilities are probably changing.

Personally a single unit of Gossamids will be an auto-include for me. And context clues are telling us that the melee builds for Kurnoth Hunters will likely be solid, if expensive.

The Echoes of Doom box is definitely a good start, just build the Kurnoth Hunters as melee. 

 

 

[Arzalyn]

3 hours ago, Nixon said:

I know this is a hard one, but coming back from a hiatus and finding out a new tome is on its way, what do you think will be good baseline units for an up to date competitive list?

Do you mean to use right now or after the book? Right now there is a list that won some tournaments. For the new book, we have to wait and see. I saw some playtesters saying lots of things will change with our new book, so its even hard to make guesses.

[Arzalyn]

Some Lady of Vines rules I got from the Sylvaneth whatsapp group:

- 2+ once per game summon 10 dryads.

- Units wholly within 6" count as in Forest.

- Her spell give a ward of 5+ wholly within 12"

Edited May 11, 2022 by Arzalyn

[Beliman]

40 minutes ago, Arzalyn said:

Units wholly within 6" count as in Forest

That's crazy!

[pixieproxy]

That's a very large Wholly Within given her base size looks to be 80mm

[pixieproxy]

But yeah, a mobile woods? I hope this is part of what lines up for the new book to be less reliant on the woods themselves. Spell to turn random terrain into woods pls

[maitremage]

49 minutes ago, Arzalyn said:

Some Lady of Vines rules I got from the Sylvaneth whatsapp group:

- 2+ once per game summon 10 dryads.

- Units wholly within 6" count as in Forest.

- Her spell give a ward of 5+ wholly within 12"

If it’s true I find that interesting. 
The summon is always very good, the spell seems golden (but wait and see concerning casting value : if it is for one unit, the effect is a bit worse than Protection of Hysh, and if it’s a bubble the lady’s spell is better, keeping in mind casting value of Protection of Hysh is 8+…)

The count as Forest ww 6 is maybe a bit short to be efficient, but it will depend on which type of units benefits from that And what are the bonus (but combo Durthu + lady could be awesome !)

[Arzalyn]

18 minutes ago, pixieproxy said:

But yeah, a mobile woods? I hope this is part of what lines up for the new book to be less reliant on the woods themselves. Spell to turn random terrain into woods pls

This gives me hope the treelords may get something similar. It would be a dream to be able to play with nothing more than a set of woods!

[Arzalyn]

Lady full warscroll leaked (transcripted so its not taken down latter):

Spoiler

10 wounds, save 3+, move 8", bravey 10

Kurnotheal's wrath 18", 1 attack  +2/+2/-1/D6

Kurnotheal's wrath 3", 3 attacks, +3/+3/-1/D3

Lashing vines 3", 4 attacks, +3/+3/-1/2

Warmaster

2 Cast/unbind Wizard

Verdian Crown - friendly sylvaneth units wholly within 6" are threat as being wholly within 6" a woods of our army.

Writhing vines - Start of combat, if she is within 3" of enemy unit we choose to give her -1 to be hit until end of turn  or +1 to hit for her attacks.

Roused to wrath - Once per battle, end of you movement, can roll a dice. On a 2+ summon 10 dryads 9" away from enemy units  and wholly within 9" of overgrowth terrain or a woods.

Aspect of the everqueen - casting value of 7, range of 12". If sucessfully cast, until your next hero phase friendly sylvaneth units have a ward of 5+ while wholly within of the range.

She looks like a pretty good support piece! Three things of note:

-Roused to wrath appear as a ability, maybe the branchwraith will loose it as a spell and get the same ability.

- Sadly, Verdian crown seen to be something specific she has her by the ability description.

- Overgrowth terrain as a options for the summon, maybe we will get spells or effects that give terrain overgrowth and this is a option for our other buffs!

Edited May 11, 2022 by Arzalyn

[velocitydog]

Durthu having a 5+ ward save and always in WW if close to the Lady for +2 attacks would be great. Very curious to see what his new warscroll looks like.

[Mirage8112]

Honestly her warscroll looks crazy good 

[Beliman]

1 hour ago, Arzalyn said:

Verdian Crown - friendly sylvaneth units wholly within 6" are threat as being wholly within 6" a woods of our army.

Fixe'd!

This ability seems to help synergies that need to be near an Awakening Wood. 

[Landohammer]

44 minutes ago, Mirage8112 said:

Honestly her warscroll looks crazy good 

Agreed. Will need to see how Dryad warscrolls look to really get a sense of her value, but as it stands she seems pretty much good at everything lol. Fast, hitty, shooty, casty, buffy and VERY resilient. 

The reference to "Overgrown" terrain characteristic is tripping me up though bc my local group doesn't use those rules. Looks like i'm gonna be starting a campaign to start enforcing them at tournaments 🤣

 

 

[Walkirriox]

The dryads summoning is wholly within 9” of an overgrown terrain or Wyldwood. Is it possible that we have a new spell to transform a terrain feature to an overgrown one and use it as ww?

[Rhetoric]

That is a hot fire new scroll.  Too bad the update to Sylvaneth was too big to fit in with my other projects, all good stuff, I hope they finally get Wyldwoods right. 

[Aezeal]

So would her summon allow her to summon within 6" of herself? 

Anyway a lot of power in that warscroll... still somewhat squishy for 340 points especially against ranged mortal wounds but the fact she gets LoS and cover save helps against normal ranged damage.  In melee the -1 hit ability will help too ofc.

Doesn't know all spells and no bonus to cast but 2 casts is nice. Her spell is ofcourse awesome so might even be worth investing in some +x to cast option since 7+ is a nasty near coinflip.

The summon ofcourse makes her effectively somewhat cheaper though 10 dryads with no rend often don't really help very much (but this may just be my frustration after a few games in a row against stormcasts with nearly only 2+/3+ saves .)

Damage output is slightly lower than 2 models of kurnoth hunters so that covers a part of the points too and ofc has no dropoff in damage output after 5 wounds.

Seems like an auto include, I fear Drycha might be nerved to stimulate purchase of this model.

Edited May 11, 2022 by Aezeal