AoS 2 - Sylvaneth Discussion

[Kramig]

A riding hero? 

[Popisdead]

On 3/27/2022 at 11:01 PM, Iksdee said:

I think its also good to remember this insectleg rumour engine. It could be part of a new Sylvaneth model as it wasnt on the Necromunda fleas.

Is that the necromunda release?  For a while people were thinking it was a plastic Jabberslythe.  

[SirSalabean]

So I’ve been thinking, I just remembered that alarielle did that massive life quake. I’d imagine there’s more reason than ever for more Sylvaneth units. Like cool bugs, maybe big versions of those dragonfly sprites with Revenants or kurnoth hunters riding them, 

 

im excited I really hope we get some cool new units not just a hero. 

[Popisdead]

On 3/31/2022 at 10:55 AM, SirSalabean said:

So I’ve been thinking, I just remembered that alarielle did that massive life quake. I’d imagine there’s more reason than ever for more Sylvaneth units. Like cool bugs, maybe big versions of those dragonfly sprites with Revenants or kurnoth hunters riding them, 

 

im excited I really hope we get some cool new units not just a hero. 

Well the Kurnothi have been the expected other half of AoS-Wood Elves.  

The Falcon (40k Stats guy on Honest Wargamer often, and long time champion of Angela Lansbury) before lockdown said "Squats are coming, it's a fact" in a manner that made it... mmm and in a recent tweet really feel like they were expected earlier,.. but Covid and the continuing "global things" changed that.  

I wonder if Kurnothi would have been released by now.  I guess we will see, well as Olaf says "in summer".

 

On another front, Mathmallow went 5-0 in the UK with Oakenbrow.  I'm not a twitch subscriber so I wasn't able to view the TSports broadcasts, anyone know what his list was?  I know he pioneered the Alarielle,Bows and friends list early on in Gnarlroot.  I wonder what was in Oakenbrown he made use of (God I hope it's 4 Treelords).

Anyone know his list?

[Kramig]

I am very curious too about this Oakenbrow list

However, I have no expectations per kurnothi, maybe next round, but I am pessimistic about new miniature for aos in 2022

[Gitzdee]

I know Mathmallow did some youtube vids where he talkes about Sylvaneth units and lists. Cant remember if he talked about that specific list but it was a very informative nonetheless. Can recommend looking it up.

[Popisdead]

On 4/3/2022 at 10:51 PM, Iksdee said:

I know Mathmallow did some youtube vids where he talkes about Sylvaneth units and lists. Cant remember if he talked about that specific list but it was a very informative nonetheless. Can recommend looking it up.

Can you link one/two?  I searched UT for "mathmallow" and "mathmallow aos" and didn't find anything recently.  I also cannot seem to find his twitter account any longer.

 

I read Oakenbrow the other night.  I see nothing significant other than Treelords are a bit better and Dryads could be better.

[Gitzdee]

1 hour ago, Popisdead said:

Can you link one/two?  I searched UT for "mathmallow" and "mathmallow aos" and didn't find anything recently.  I also cannot seem to find his twitter account any longer.

 

I read Oakenbrow the other night.  I see nothing significant other than Treelords are a bit better and Dryads could be better.

I think i saw this one, its only a few months old.

 

[Popisdead]

On 4/6/2022 at 10:30 AM, Iksdee said:

I think i saw this one, its only a few months old.

 

That's his Gnarlroot list.  

 

I thought you meant there was something in the last week.

[Arzalyn]

1 hour ago, Popisdead said:

That's his Gnarlroot list.  

 

I thought you meant there was something in the last week.

In the Sylvaneth Whatsapp group people were talking as his list was the same list he talked about before. Looking at the Twitch video preview it also look like the same list he talks in the video @Iksdee linked.

[Gitzdee]

On 4/7/2022 at 8:01 PM, Popisdead said:

That's his Gnarlroot list.  

 

I thought you meant there was something in the last week.

This is still gnarlroot list but he won first.

https://woehammer.com/2022/04/08/top-three-aos-lists-from-super-major-gt/

[Popisdead]

On 4/8/2022 at 10:43 PM, Iksdee said:

This is still gnarlroot list but he won first.

https://woehammer.com/2022/04/08/top-three-aos-lists-from-super-major-gt/

yeah okay well,.. glad he took it to town.  I used that list in the summer and if you are reserved and attentive you surgically remove the threats in 5 turns.  I haven't played lately though and not against the top tier lists.  I couldn't speak about it vs the META.  And tbh does that really matter other than a handful of people who play at those levels? 

[Aezeal]

Everything in our army needs a buff.

I hope the hunter different options get a bit more diverse in points. Considering the set already exists it wouldn't really be visible on the models though. But maybe the scythes just getting a small buff in attack for about equal points or stay the same for a slight points reduction while the swords get a point in armor or HP and an attack buff and cost 50 points more (would fit with the range of scythes fit better with larger groups). Or just give the bows significantly more fire power (3 attacks, 3+ to hit) for more points? Also I'd like to drop the envoy ability on them (coming back elsewhere) and trade it for point reduction, armor or hitting power.

I'd like the dryads to stay as they are, our chaff unit

I like spites to stay about the same but get the teleport option tree revs now have (I know: that would be a retcon that isn't going to happen). But I want it because they look less ' elite'  than the tree revenants which I want to get another treatment. and they look like they could be sneaky and stealthy which sort of fits this ability.

I'd like the Tree revanants to be more elite (starting with a more elite name). They should get the ' envoy ' ability and all around more elite. They'd loose their teleport. 4+ save at least.  3 attacks 3 wounds or 4 attacks 2 wounds or maybe 3 attacks, 2 wounds, 5+ ward. Some nice ability to go either defensive or offensive for re-rolls on wounds OR save maybe. (PS this unit could also be a new unit).

I know everyone wants some bug cavalry and I think the more elite version above of the Tree revs would fit on there better than hunters. 

Ow and I want the dryad summonspell on the wych and the wraith should become a priest.

And ofcourse: a slightly less terrible wound chart on the treelords.

It's to bad we recently had the new woods.. because a faction terrain just consisting of a giant tree with some options for positioning models in the tree would be nice. I'd not mind just getting this anyway and having to choose between a regular forest and this :D. TAKE MY MONEY.

Also I want my forest dragon back. The long sinewy look our WE dragon had, but then AoS sized plastic ofc. TAKE MY MONEY 2x

[readercolin]

My wishlisting:

Dryads become tanky chaff.  Give them a base 4+ save, maybe give them a 5+ or 6+ ward near woods, and keep their attack profile similar to what it is now.  But they should exist to be bodies on objectives.

Spite Revenants.  These guys need to be the cheap, elite killers.  They should be 2 wound models, and they should get more attacks (4? 5?) with rend -1.  Alternatively, bring them up to damage 2 with either mortals on hit or wound, or rend -1.  As far as abilities, maybe give them built in re-roll charges, or just make them stats units.

Tree Revenants.  These guys should also be elite, and be 2 wound models for ~120-140 points.  Give them the 3+/3+ profile instead of 4+/3+, but the attacks and damage can remain the same, and keep the teleport.

Kurnoth Hunters.  All these guys should be simplified.  Get rid of the stand-put to get tankier, get rid of the command re-broadcasting, get rid of the "trample underfoot" rule, and just make them a 3+ save.  Additionally, they should all be modified to do some more damage, and the swords should get a 2" reach and scythes 3".  Just make them the elite, tanky beatsticks that they should be instead of having a ton of fiddly bits.  Also, these guys should either be battleline or conditional battleline.

Treelord.  Firstly, ALL the sylvaneth monsters need to have a better damage table, and they should also all get more wounds.  The treelord should also be elite, and the massive impaling talon needs to stop being a swingy maybe mortal wound source that happens once every 3 games.  Damage needs to move to flat instead of d6, or more attacks with d3 damage.  Finally, can we make these guys conditional battleline?

Treelord Ancient.  Is he a caster?  Is he a beatstick?  Is he a support piece?  Seriously, choose 1 and stick to it.  But like the treelord, he needs more wounds, needs a better wound table, needs to lose the d6 damage, and massive impaling talon needs to be less swingy.  Get rid of his bubble of +1 to save, and then either make him a 2 cast wizard, or give him a better damage profile.

Spirit of Durthu.  The spirit of Durthu is a great unit... until it takes 3 wounds, or walks just too far away from the wyldwoods, after which it becomes much closer to garbage.  This guy should be the ultimate beatstick in the army, and it needs more wounds, a better damage table, flat damage for its guardian sword, and less dependence on being near trees.

Warsong Revenant.  This guy is basically fine as is, and I would have no issues if they left it more or less unchanged.

Brancwych.  This thing needs an entire warscroll re-write, or just get binned.  Maybe make this and the brancwraith the same unit with 2 different models.  But there should be no reason to attempt to run a 5 wound unit with a 5+ wave that wants to get into melee range.  I don't have a good solution to this unit, but it needs a complete overhaul.

Branchwraith.  Honestly, this unit only gets used as a dryad factory, and I would rather get rid of that.  Yes, it has been a staple of Sylvaneth armies for years, but I would rather not have summoning (at least from cheap support pieces) and would rather have this thing as a semi-useful wizard support piece.

Arch-Revenant.  Why is a hyper-fast 12" move 5 wound hero running around as a support piece for Kurnoth Hunters?  Either make this guy a more general support piece, or make him a "Revenant" support piece... you know, like its name says?

Drycha.  Drycha, like the rest of Sylvaneth monsters needs a better wound table.  Her spell also kind of sucks, and she could use a better spell, and maybe more wounds.  Otherwise, she is mostly fine.

Allarielle.  Ahh, the god of life.  Dear lord do I hate this warscroll.  First off, she needs either more wounds or a ward save (and I would prefer the ward save).  She is a GOD after all.  Like the rest of the sylvaneth units, she needs a better wound table too.  However, the biggest thing that she needs is a re-write for the "Talon of Dwindling".  Who the heck thought that thing was a good idea?  You have to hit (2/3 chance to do so), you have to wound (1/2 chance to do so), your opponent has to fail their save (call it between 1/3 and 1/2 a chance to do so), and then, finally, if all of that happens you have to roll a 6 or nothing happens.  For reference, against a 3+ save, this means that the talon has a 1.8% chance of killing something.  Against a save of -, this is still only a 5% chance of doing something.  WHY!?!  This means that if you were to somehow get allarielle into combat EVERY round against units with a save of -, she would only insta-slay a single model once every 4 games.  Next up, her summoning.  Either cut that from her, or make her the tree-god and build her around being able to summon every turn.  Again, I would prefer to cut summoning, and make her worth her points on her own, but if you really insist on having a summoning army, then make it alarielle's special ability to summon each turn.  Finally, she is a god - why doesn't she get a bonus to casting?  Like... seriously... why?

Finally, allegience abilities.  Sylvaneth currently have a number of good artefacts, command traits and allegience abilities, but everything is locked up in the glade choice, and you can't mix and match well to fit your army.  Give us Gnarlroot's "Nurtured by Magic" as a generic allegience ability, and the Chalice of Nectar as a generic artefact.  Give us the Frozen Kernal as a Generic Artefact.  Let us keep the Acorn of the Ages, the Spiritsong Stave, the Vespral Gem, and the Lifewreath.  And let us reduce our dependency on Wyldwoods - sure, lets keep 1 wyldwood, maybe with the ability to summon a 2nd... but you shouldn't have to tell a new sylvaneth player to go out and buy 3-5 boxes of wyldwoods.

[Landohammer]

So if we want to take some guidance from the recent book updates, most notably Deepkin and Fyreslayers:

Its not likely our core infantry models will change all that much. Simplification seems to be the common theme and our units are pretty simple. Most of the big changes to recent books revolve around allegiance/sub allegiance updates, monsters and heroes.

Monsters - Monsters seem to be getting significantly scarier, with significantly higher point costs. Look to the Leviadon and Magmadroths. Both are pretty terrifying now and the Leviadon is now 500pts. (up ~100pts). 

How this will impact us: I'm betting Treelords become more expensive, but a lot tougher. 

Heroes - Similar to monsters, heroes got better but with marginal cost increases. And auto-takes were adjusted. For example the Akhelian King (formerly just an ok hero tax) became an insane beatstick. The cheaper heroes were mildly retooled and made more appealing. 

How this will impact us:  The branchwych, arch revenant, and branchwraith will probably get reworked into different roles. Our monster heroes will likely come at a premium but become significant battlefield presences. 

Allegiance abilities - This is where the true power of the book will likely come. The deepkin tides were expanded and buffed (and they were arguably a decent book already). And the sub factions no longer lock your traits/artefacts. Battleline unlocks were altered/added.

How this will impact us-  battleline unlocks of Treelords, and potentially even Kurnoth. Expansion of our allegiance rules to a significant degree. 

 

 

[Aezeal]

On 4/21/2022 at 8:07 PM, Landohammer said:

So if we want to take some guidance from the recent book updates, most notably Deepkin and Fyreslayers:

Its not likely our core infantry models will change all that much. Simplification seems to be the common theme and our units are pretty simple. Most of the big changes to recent books revolve around allegiance/sub allegiance updates, monsters and heroes.

Monsters - Monsters seem to be getting significantly scarier, with significantly higher point costs. Look to the Leviadon and Magmadroths. Both are pretty terrifying now and the Leviadon is now 500pts. (up ~100pts). 

How this will impact us: I'm betting Treelords become more expensive, but a lot tougher. 

Heroes - Similar to monsters, heroes got better but with marginal cost increases. And auto-takes were adjusted. For example the Akhelian King (formerly just an ok hero tax) became an insane beatstick. The cheaper heroes were mildly retooled and made more appealing. 

How this will impact us:  The branchwych, arch revenant, and branchwraith will probably get reworked into different roles. Our monster heroes will likely come at a premium but become significant battlefield presences. 

Allegiance abilities - This is where the true power of the book will likely come. The deepkin tides were expanded and buffed (and they were arguably a decent book already). And the sub factions no longer lock your traits/artefacts. Battleline unlocks were altered/added.

How this will impact us-  battleline unlocks of Treelords, and potentially even Kurnoth. Expansion of our allegiance rules to a significant degree. 

 

 

I've not paid attention to the other books and what happend there so I'll just take everything you say as truth. But if monsters get stronger and more expensive then list building might be harder since we often use an above average number of monsters (well I think we do at least). Mainly because TLA and Drycha are very good choices atm ofc.

 

On 4/21/2022 at 6:26 PM, readercolin said:

My wishlisting:

 

I'd prefer the TLA command ability stays since it's the only good one we have

[Lanoss]

I have a hard time thinking Hunters will become battleline (EVEN THOUGH THATD BE FRIGGIN AWESOME!)

A couple things about Hunters now: they’re 200+pts each, they’re overcoated, they don’t hit as hard compared to similar units, they’re an anvil unit, they can be summoned, healed, models returned, rallied, can get to a 3+ save negating rend, and we can have up to 6 in a unit (so 30 wounds at a 4+ save for 450pts*)

Now if they’re battleline that means we’ll be able to take up to NINE in a unit (and trust me, I will.) But we also want them to hit harder? Have more consistent attacks? And all their other abilities?
And if they don’t get better, we’d like them cheaper right? Say 180 each? So then for 540pts* we would get a HUGE block of 45wounds that can be healed, return models to, rally, teleport, get a 3+ save negating rend and hit decently hard…

it’s just a BIG ASK for them to be battleline imo

I dunno, there’s a lot to break down and they’ll likely be quite different to how they are now, but if I see them become battleline I’d expect them to not be ‘stronger’ in the new book

[acr0ssth3p0nd]

19 hours ago, Lanoss said:

I have a hard time thinking Hunters will become battleline (EVEN THOUGH THATD BE FRIGGIN AWESOME!)

A couple things about Hunters now: they’re 200+pts each, they’re overcoated, they don’t hit as hard compared to similar units, they’re an anvil unit, they can be summoned, healed, models returned, rallied, can get to a 3+ save negating rend, and we can have up to 6 in a unit (so 30 wounds at a 4+ save for 450pts*)

Now if they’re battleline that means we’ll be able to take up to NINE in a unit (and trust me, I will.) But we also want them to hit harder? Have more consistent attacks? And all their other abilities?
And if they don’t get better, we’d like them cheaper right? Say 180 each? So then for 540pts* we would get a HUGE block of 45wounds that can be healed, return models to, rally, teleport, get a 3+ save negating rend and hit decently hard…

it’s just a BIG ASK for them to be battleline imo

I dunno, there’s a lot to break down and they’ll likely be quite different to how they are now, but if I see them become battleline I’d expect them to not be ‘stronger’ in the new book

Totally agree. I'd much rather have our current Battleline buffed, and keep Kurnoth Hunters as these super-rad elite units that only remain in the realm of "balanced" due to limited spam-ability. Drop their points, buff bow accuracy, and set scythe damage at 2, and then let them wreck face.

For battleline, here's what I'd love to see. 

• Buff Tree-Revs offensive power and charging reliability, and maybe move martial memories to a strike-first deal or a solid ward. They teleport and hit hard, like spec-ops strike teams. They could become a mid-cost unit, more expensive than Dryad "horde" units and spite-rev "support/min-battleline" units, but cheaper than Kurnoth Hunters. Their teleport allows them to show up and provide combat support where needed to add extra punch, which a buffed unit can now reliably deliver, and a fight-first gives them a better chance to deliver that punch to reduce the enemy's ability to fight back while making them a less viable target in the main combat (since you will want to target thing that haven't fought yet to reduce the punch they can still throw at you in the future).
• Buff Spite-Revs by giving them the tree-rev teleport and.. idk, maybe a debuff-ing unit that blocks enemy command abilities? Battleshock shenanigans are fun, but not really compelling or useful. Giving them the teleport ties them into the same "family" as tree-revs, while a shift towards a debuff/disruption unit helps give them a clear identity beyond "less punchy tree-revs." Like tree-revs, their teleport lets you pop them up whereever you need them to be.
• Buff dryad staying power so they perform well as chaff and anvil units, or drop their cost. The latter is more likely, as the warscroll is already pretty decent for a horde-type model. On the comp side of things, it looks like a horde meta could be on the rise, and dryads are in a good spot to take advantage of that with just a slight points drop.

[Landohammer]

On 4/23/2022 at 6:08 PM, Aezeal said:

I've not paid attention to the other books and what happend there so I'll just take everything you say as truth. But if monsters get stronger and more expensive then list building might be harder since we often use an above average number of monsters (well I think we do at least). Mainly because TLA and Drycha are very good choices atm ofc.

 

I'd prefer the TLA command ability stays since it's the only good one we have

 I disagree. The meta is mostly dominated by strong monsters. And the Sylvaneth lists that do manage wins aren't the ones taking the big tree heroes. 

As it stands our monsters are only taken for 2 reasons competitively. (and I say "competitively" knowing full well we aren't competitive in any real sense). Either as a means to make our 1 good unit better (TLA supporting Hunters) or as a mobile source of mortal wound shooting to get by AOD (Drycha).

I am 100% on board with Treelords becoming  300-400pts monstrosities that people fear. We don't need discount 180pt monsters (Hunters are always going to be better) and we have way too many ~300pt heroes. We need roster diversity.

On 4/23/2022 at 8:07 PM, Lanoss said:

I have a hard time thinking Hunters will become battleline (EVEN THOUGH THATD BE FRIGGIN AWESOME!)

 

I dunno, there’s a lot to break down and they’ll likely be quite different to how they are now, but if I see them become battleline I’d expect them to not be ‘stronger’ in the new book

At this point, ANYTHING can be battleline. We have dragon, leviadon, stegadon, terrorgeists, felwater trolls, eels, blood Knights, Ironguts, etc, etc, etc as battleline.

So I fully expect some version of them to become battleline. I just assume there will be some kind of cost. For example, locking them to a specific subfaction that is particularly weak. Or requiring a certain expensive hero to be General. 

The real test of the sylvaneth book (other than our core allegiance rules becoming more substantial) is if they do anything to make Spites and Dryads more appealing. But like I said in my other post, based on the Fyreslayer and Deepkin books, they don't appear to be modifying core troops much.

However, plaguebearers are the exception. Those guys received an entirely new warscroll. So who knows at this point! Man I wish this book would hurry up! 

 

 

 

[Lord Krungharr]

I only have the big 3 Treemen (the old metal ones) for my Living Cities army, but am gathering the old fugly models when I find them cheap for a future old-folks glade.  Durthu does alright unless he just whiffs with his sword, but the others don't do any noticeable damage in the Living City most of the time, though they do better than most of my Dwarves

With regards to Awakened Wyldwoods that my Treelord Ancient can plant, I found this snippet:

Sylvaneth: The Endless Spells and Awakened Wyldwood - Warhammer Community (warhammer-community.com)

Does this still hold true?  Can I use my old Citadel Woods?  Or is there some other rule I haven't found that says I have to buy the new ones?  

[Arzalyn]

We finally getting some info on our release! On May 5th we shall know what the future hold for us!

From the WarCom article:

Warhammer Age of Sigmar gets the treatment on the 5th of May, with new units, new battletomes, and new characters.

Edited April 25, 2022 by Arzalyn

[Aezeal]

7 hours ago, Landohammer said:

 I disagree. The meta is mostly dominated by strong monsters. And the Sylvaneth lists that do manage wins aren't the ones taking the big tree heroes. 

As it stands our monsters are only taken for 2 reasons competitively. (and I say "competitively" knowing full well we aren't competitive in any real sense). Either as a means to make our 1 good unit better (TLA supporting Hunters) or as a mobile source of mortal wound shooting to get by AOD (Drycha).

I am 100% on board with Treelords becoming  300-400pts monstrosities that people fear. We don't need discount 180pt monsters (Hunters are always going to be better) and we have way too many ~300pt heroes. We need roster diversity.

At this point, ANYTHING can be battleline. We have dragon, leviadon, stegadon, terrorgeists, felwater trolls, eels, blood Knights, Ironguts, etc, etc, etc as battleline.

So I fully expect some version of them to become battleline. I just assume there will be some kind of cost. For example, locking them to a specific subfaction that is particularly weak. Or requiring a certain expensive hero to be General. 

The real test of the sylvaneth book (other than our core allegiance rules becoming more substantial) is if they do anything to make Spites and Dryads more appealing. But like I said in my other post, based on the Fyreslayer and Deepkin books, they don't appear to be modifying core troops much.

However, plaguebearers are the exception. Those guys received an entirely new warscroll. So who knows at this point! Man I wish this book would hurry up! 

 

 

 

But if TL is 400 points then TLA and Durthu will be 400-500 points which will mean less 300 point heroes.  And building a list with our best choices being 300-500 point heroes seems annoying and probably vulnerable against MW armies (them exploding SC where annoying as hell last game). 

Anyway I'm mostly rooting for my Trev/spite proposal. It's fitting the sneaky trees get teleport and the Trevs should be elitish infantry and they aren't atm.

[Lord Krungharr]

The Spite-revenants should definitely be 2 wounds at least.  Considering you only get 5 per box for $50, they need to be on par with Hearthguard Berzerkers.

[GunslingerOy]

Had a great weekend going 4-1 at a 38 player event and finishing 6th overall. Two other Sylvaneth players and I end up drawing against both of them. Too much tree on tree violence. My Everqueen was turned into a tree by an opponents Everqueen. Played a bee bomb list with six scythes, warsong, Everqueen and lots of poor cannon fodder.

[Beliman]

On 4/24/2022 at 2:07 AM, Lanoss said:

And if they don’t get better, we’d like them cheaper right? Say 180 each?

That will put them in the range of Guttrippaz, Judicators (crossbows), vigilors and both Akhelian eels.

And remember that eels were nerfed in the last book.