AoS 2 - Sylvaneth Discussion

[vinnyt]

Another exciting game against some Slaanesh! This is pre-FAQ so forgive some minor rules inconsistencies. I've got a few more battle reports ready to post over the next few days so hopefully that's ok with y'all! 

 

My list is: Harvestboon

Alarielle

Durthu, silent sickle, seek new fruit

Branchwraith

 

5 Spite revs

5 Tree Revs

5 Tree Revs

 

3 Kurnoths with scythes

 

Treelord

Treelord

 

Deployment: We played the Vise scenario where you start with 4 corner objectives which converge on the center until you have only one center objective for turns 4 and 5.

His army was:

Glutos
Sigvald
Dexcessa
Lord of Pain

3x5 Painbringers
1x5 Slickblade Seekers

Whirling blade endless spell

I knew I would have the mobility advantage and could easily pressure either flank to try and go up early on points. I was concerned about his killiness and the huge amount of minuses to hit I would have to go through.

As such, I deployed fairly centrally with my big hitters- making sure to have some trees handy for teleporting near where the objective would go.

He gives me first turn

 

Turn 1: 

Turn one was pretty straightforward. I run with the trees to get the 3 easy battle tactics, summon 10 dryads, summon some trees (he wasn't in range to unbind anything). Alarielle hits Dexcessa for 6 damage from the spear

He heals dexcessa a bit and summons the insane mirror thing which dings 4 spite revenants and 3 wounds off Durthu. He then moves up pretty aggressively so I redeploy my summoned dryads deep into the woods so no charges or combats.

 

Turn 2:

I win priority for turn 2 and start acting out my plan. 10 more dryads are summoned and that's the last magic I see for the rest of the game (awful dice). I teleport the previously summoned dryads and a treelord over to cap his objective and get me 3 easy battle tactic points for savage spearhead. (him and alarielle). Alarielle summons 3 sword kurnoths to force his painbringers to stay away. Alarielle does 6 damage to the slickblades and durthu fails his long bomb charge into glutos.

His turn starts with the spinny death blades doing 5 damage to alarielle, killing a dryad, and wounding the treelord. He then brings Sigvald out of deepstrike and pushes that flank HARD. Sigvald and some painbringers murder all the dryads, Glutos puts like 9 wounds onto Durthu. However, Durthu spends a command point to fight at top bracket and absolutely starches the slickblades (who were striking last). He then jumps out of combat.

I have 3 objectives and sylvaneth grows their lead to 11-7.

Slaanesh gets the double turn

 

Turn 3:

He fails to cast the endless spell again and ends his movement phase at an awkward 11 depravity points. Dexcessa is still real spooked of Alarielle's spear so heals again and keeps running. He summons 3 fiends at the table center and keeps pushing through that flank. Sigvald murders some innocent tree revenants for the battle tactic while Glutos realizes that a 2+ save Treelord is really hard to kill and only puts like 6 wounds on him. There's an awkward moment where the painbringers fail a charge with no CP reroll available and Sigvald has to kill the tree revs instead of Durthu. He didn't feel like risking Durthu making the painbringers strike last, murdering them, and then running away.

Alarielle heals 3 wounds on 2d6 and we do no magic whatsoever. Ok time to start pushing towards the table center for turns 4 and 5. Spite revs move to block off Sigvald from pushing the table center while Durthu escapes to safety. Other than that I just run towards the center while taking the time to smash his terrain and miss Dexcessa with Alarielle's spear. Scythes charge in and kill 2 fiends for a smattering of damage in return. The mighty treelord rolls like a champ and survives Glutos again with like 3 wounds remaining, pinning him in place and keeping me the objective (with the help of the wee spite revs)

I hold on to the three objectives and the score is now 16-10 Sylvaneth.

 

Turn 4

Slaanesh go first. I'm able to unbind the mirror spell and that's all that's relevant. Sigvald sees red and smashes the branchwraith into kindling. He also goes into alarielle with the back painbringer unit and the lord of pain. Alarielle stand and shoots- dealing 5 damage to the lord of pain. Dexcessa decides to try and murder the Treelord for battle tactic points and goes to join Glutos in that fight. She does 2 wounds to the Treelord who has had enough of this and kills her with a single blow. Glutos then kills the heroic treelord. The Lord of Pain does like 7 wounds to Alarielle who kills him in response. The Painbringers do like 3 more for a total of 12 wounds on Alarielle. The other painbringer unit in the woods comes to join the Kurnoth party and they kill 2 with the help of the fiend. The Kurnoths whiff horribly in response. He sneaks the center objective on his turn.

Ok, so my turn here we go. Alarielle heals a mighty 5 wounds and does no magic, running up to help out with the battle tactic of killing a battleline unit. Durthu also advances and prepares to obliterate the painbringers. The Treelord moves up to attack the other painbringers as insurance for the battle tactic. Spite revs fan out to corral Sigvald away from the center objective.

Everything goes to ****** immediately. Alarielle misses her spear throw and then rolls a 3" charge. Durthu charges (with the help of a reroll), does 0 WOUNDS to the painbringers and retreats in shame. The Treelord misses his monster stomp and only kills 3 painbringers. The Kurnoths kill the fiend but whiff on the painbringers AGAIN. So I end up not getting the battle tactic at ALL, but I do hold the center objective.

Score is 19-15 Sylvaneth.

He wins priority for turn 5

Turn 5:

Only thing of note here is that he summons a Keeper who rolls a 10" charge, tags the dryads, consolidates into Durthu, and does 15 mortal wounds to him, netting him 4 victory points. But, that still wouldn't be enough, as the 10 dryads outcompete the Keeper for the objective and next turn I would just disengage the Dryads and bring over alarielle with the Treelord to camp the objective and win the game.

Final score was 26-22 Sylvaneth!

[Emissary]

Played a 2,000 point game against a friend today and thought I should share some thoughts on Sylvaneth in 3.0.  We called the game after round 4 was the score was 24-7 for the Sylvaneth.

His army:
Slaves to Darkness (daemon prince faction, whichever that one is)
3 Daemon Princes (Slaanesh)
Chaos Sorcerer on Manticore (Slaanesh)
20 Chaos Warriors with 2 weapons
2x5 Chaos Knights
Warshrine
5 Chaos Chosen
Battle Regiment and Warlord Core Battalions

My army:
Gnarlroot
Warlord Core Battalion
Treelord Ancient
Warsong Revenant (Chalice and General)
Branchwraith (Spiritsong Stave)
5 Tree-Revenants
5 Tree-Revenants

Hunters of the Heartlands Core Battalion
6 Kurnoth Hunters with Greatbows
3 Kurnoth Hunters with Swords
5 Spite Revenants

Drycha
Gladewyrm
Spiteswarm Hive

Thoughts:

1) As much as people have been talking about the new command abilities, in all 3 games I've played so far, by far the most important change is armor saves.  You can get +2 and +3 fairly easily with the All out Defense and Mystic Shield.  Because of the hard +1 cap, your model's base save is very important now.  Since all our monsters are at a 3+, this is huge.  My monsters were rocking a 2+ almost always.  Rend isn't nearly as much of a factor now if you have -1.  It's too easy to remove.  It's more to keep them honest to spread out the armor buffs rather than dump them all on one unit.  The Sylvaneth are really, really good at bumping that armor save up.  It's going to be a huge strength to the army.

2) With #1, the Treelord Ancient is AMAZING now.  I cannot imagine not bringing him at this point.  Autoinclude!  HIs command ability is easily top tier, especially with the large radius and the fact that it spirals out from Kurnoth Hunters.  Between it, the Hive, Dryad's abilities, Tanglethorn Thicket, Mystic Shield and Cover, I never had to spend a command point for armor saves and everyone in the army was rocking +1 to their saves against just about all hits with no rend for most of the game.  The only time it didn't happen was if they wandered away for an objective or as a screen. Throw in the free wyldwood and that he's a caster with the reroll 1s to hit bubble and he's a solid model now.

3) Along with this, because Drycha, the Ancient, Durthu and Alarielle are both monsters and heroes, it gives them access to a lot.  Drycha was able to tank 20 chaos warriors for 5 rounds of combat even though I was rolling more than average 1s for save because she started healing herself d3 wounds with the hero ability more often.  The ancient's damage went up because he could stomp and do d3 mortal wounds to that daemon prince at the end of every charge phase, whicle Drycha was turning off all command abilities for the Chaos Warriors.

4) For command abilities, they are good.  My opponent used +1 to save just about every turn.  Because of all the save bonuses, I was able to focus more on the +1 to hit and just putting up the ancient's ability every turn.  Unleash Hell is awesome for Drycha and the Hunters with Greatbows.  In the game the hunters were charged with a daemon prince with a 5+ ward and they still did 7 wounds to him when he charged, then killed him later with their trample.  I did move away with my tree revenants while still holding an objective which made another daemon prince be out of range for his charge.  You do run out of command points quickly though and can't spend them like water.  You don't have nearly as many as Ossiarch Bonereapers, so don't play that way.

5) Speaking of command abilities, do not sleep on the Hunters of the Heartlands core battalion. It makes those units immune to monstrous rampages.  It was huge in our game because the manticore could not roar and turn off the hunter's getting the +1 from the ancient's command ability.  Plus they couldn't get stomped.  It's a very easy battalion to bring and I fully recommend it.

6) Our army is also well setup to do the Grand Strategy and Battle Tactics.  For the Grand Strategy, the one where one of your battleline units surviving is easy with tree-revenants and you should get your 3 points constantly.  Also, because they teleport, taking 2 units of them makes the Battle Tactic where you have to get 2 units in their deployment zone easy as well.  

7) I really liked the unit of 6 hunters with greatbows.  The +1 to hit command ability REALLY helps their 1 problem: hitting on 4s.  Between it and the reroll 1s to hit from Gnarlroot they were very consistent and were putting out anywhere from 6-8 wounds a turn (they will pull a +1 to save command ability from your opponent a lot).  After they shot down the daemon prince that charged them, it made my opponent a little wary to charge them or the unit next to them in the following command phase (double turn).  Also, with the smaller board and smaller length apart, the army doesn't care too much about going first in the first round.  You get to set up your woods easily and then have plenty of shooting between the hunters, ancient and Drycha.  

 

Overall, I'm really happy with where the Sylvaneth are.  The game didn't feel like a fluke and played how I expected it to play without any real outlandish luck.  I'm playing against Khorne on Wednesday, so see how it does against some bloodthirsters.

[Tizianolol]

What about LoS block? If you got 6 bow hunters into a big aw ww you cant shoot because of LoS blocked?

[Aezeal]

15 minutes ago, Emissary said:

I never had to spend a command point for armor saves

How do you mean? Using the TLA command ability spends a command point right? Or have I completely misread something?

 

20 minutes ago, Emissary said:

It was huge in our game because the manticore could not roar and turn off the hunter's getting the +1 from the ancient's command ability. 

I'm not quite sure you have to be afraid for this. As I read it the TLA both issues AND recieves his CA. So while they BENEFIT the hunters don't recieve the CA... so not being able to recieve a CA doesn't bother them (unless the monster in question is next to the TLA ofc.)

[Emissary]

12 minutes ago, Tizianolol said:

What about LoS block? If you got 6 bow hunters into a big aw ww you cant shoot because of LoS blocked?

There were plenty of firing lanes.  Plus it is 3" los through woods now iirc.  I didnt really park them in woods as they didnt need the cover.

 

9 minutes ago, Aezeal said:

How do you mean? Using the TLA command ability spends a command point right? Or have I completely misread something?

 

I'm not quite sure you have to be afraid for this. As I read it the TLA both issues AND recieves his CA. So while they BENEFIT the hunters don't recieve the CA... so not being able to recieve a CA doesn't bother them (unless the monster in question is next to the TLA ofc.)

For the save i meant spending multiple command points over the battle round for all out defense.  My opponent spent at least half his points on that in the game.

I understand about the aura.  It juat prevented a discussion, but it also means you dont have to worry about not being able to use all out attack or defense if you want.

[Pennydude]

I don’t think a Roar on a TLA would turn off the aura. That CA was issued in the hero phase and just persists until your next hero phase. 

[Ching Wing]

Won three games now with new rules with this list it’s pretty fun too. 
 

gnarlroot

Grand tactic keep monsters alive

Alarielle(summon in 3 sword hunters) 

drycha regrowth

TLA general regrowth

Branchwraith vespereal gem

branchwych(so I can do warlord)

2x5 spites

1x5 tree rev

treelord vanilla 

Endless spell spiteswarm hive

2000 points. 

turn one with CA from TLA and spite hive I give everyone +2 save and then mystic shield give alarielle +3 so we’re good if anyone tries to alpha strike or if I get double turned I’m sitting pretty whatever wounds manage to get through are instantly healed and then with alarielle magic/shooting and drycha/TLA/vanilla magic/shooting easily cuts things down for a couple turns and then give 3” bonuses to move and charge just teleport/move and charge. Game over turn three. 

 

Edited July 3, 2021 by Ching Wing

[JSH]

Hi! I've been reading this thread for years but have never posted. I have a number of doubts with the awakened wyldwood destroyed.

When a monster destroys an awakened wyldwood with the monster bash ability, it is clear to me that from that awakened wyldwood a teleportation cannot be initiated. But from another awakened wyldwood, is it possible to end a teleport on the destroyed awakened wyldwood? 

Does the awakened wyldwood keyword hold up?

Can abilities like Blessings of the Forest from the dryads or Wrathful Guardian from a Spirith of Durthu still be used alongside a destroyed awakened wyldwood?

Thank you for your answers.

[plavski]

Smashed to rubble says the scenery rules on the wyldwood's warscroll cannot be used. But if the rules are on another warscroll, they're fine to use.

[a74xhx]

17 hours ago, Alpidur said:

In particular, why take out a new warscroll into Kragnos and a month later re-write all the warscroll? No sense! 

They did exactly the same with 40k Pyschic Awakening. Set of books with new rules just before the new addition. Think they've done this before too. Makes me not want to buy any of these campaign books, as they immediately become useless.

39 minutes ago, JSH said:

Hi! I've been reading this thread for years but have never posted. I have a number of doubts with the awakened wyldwood destroyed.

When a monster destroys an awakened wyldwood with the monster bash ability, it is clear to me that from that awakened wyldwood a teleportation cannot be initiated. But from another awakened wyldwood, is it possible to end a teleport on the destroyed awakened wyldwood? 

Does the awakened wyldwood keyword hold up?

Can abilities like Blessings of the Forest from the dryads or Wrathful Guardian from a Spirith of Durthu still be used alongside a destroyed awakened wyldwood?

Thank you for your answers.

I think I agree with you.

The wood you are teleporting from has the rule.

The wood you are teleporting to is still an awakened wyldwood.

If it doesn't get FAQed, that's great for us. Most smashing will occur in enemy territory. Most teleports will start in our side.

[JSH]

Where I wrote "monster bash", I meant "smashed to rubble", I got confused.

32 minutes ago, plavski said:

Smashed to rubble says the scenery rules on the wyldwood's warscroll cannot be used. But if the rules are on another warscroll, they're fine to use.

Ok, I also interpret it that way.

2 minutes ago, a74xhx said:

The wood you are teleporting to is still an awakened wyldwood.

I think that is so, but I wanted to read your interpretation.

 

[Pennydude]

The terrain is still considered an Awakened Wyldwood even if it got the Monster Smash.

The Treelord variants can still teleport using them (and it’s now just within 6” to start teleporting instead of wholly within 6”), Dryads still get the -1 to hit, Durthu gets +2 attacks, etc.  

If you want to teleport a unit of Kurnoths, you can’t start the teleport from a smashed woods, but the destination can be smashed.

[Abstract_duck]

One more possible reason why wood placement during the game is not faction terrain (although I believe Mirage's earlier argument settles it), and therefore the 3" doesnt apply:

The warscroll says: 'only Sylvaneth can take this faction terrain feature'. Since other armies can take, for instance, a TLA, that would imy 1 of 2 things: (1) they (e.g. cities or other allies) cannot use his tree placement skill if the trees are a faction terrain, or (2) placement of Awakened woods during the game implies that it is not faction terrain, therefore meaning faction terrain placement rules do not apply. 

Considering all other point, and because it would be strange otherwise, I would argue (2) is the case. Here, warscroll conditions apply instead. These conditions are quite nice. All in all, these placement skills are a massive, massive buff to sylvaneth.

 

Edited July 4, 2021 by Abstract_duck

[Pennydude]

It looks like one of the playtesters, Laurie Huggett-Wilde, is gonna be playing with the 1” rule as well. I can see the argument for it especially with them adding the restriction to the BR: Kragnos woods warscroll and then removing it.

If we do place the three individual woods though, they just have to be placed more than 3” from each other. Still could be placed 1” away from other woods you’ve set up that game.

[Havelocke]

10 minutes ago, Pennydude said:

It looks like one of the playtesters, Laurie Huggett-Wilde, is gonna be playing with the 1” rule as well.

I'll be playing that way for the time being, as well. It seems to be the prevailing opinion right now, and I think there's a great deal of evidence to suggest that it's what was intended. That said, I still wish they'd clear it up and make things a bit more explicit.

The restrictions in the GHB do not mention anything about 'before the battle begins' and that can only be inferred by the other rules around it in the book. Core rule 23.0 dies not provide a definitive definition of what faction terrain is, as contrasted with rules like 19.0, 20.0, and 21.0.

Either way you try to argue it, you're relying on inferences. I've emailed GW asking for clarification, though I don't necessarily expect a fast response.

11 minutes ago, Pennydude said:

If we do place the three individual woods though, they just have to be placed more than 3” from each other. Still could be placed 1” away from other woods you’ve set up that game.

Good catch!

2 hours ago, Abstract_duck said:

The warscroll says: 'only Sylvaneth can take this faction terrain feature'.

In the English version of the FAQ, the exact wording is: "Only Sylvaneth armies can include this faction terrain feature."

I think the word include here is important, because it's the same language that is used in Core 1.4.1, which allows you to include one piece of faction terrain in your army. This rule, as I read it, stops non-sylvaneth armies from including an awakened wyldwood on their army roster. It doesn't interfere with the Ancient's ability because it's being added, rather than included. This language distinction is similarly used for summoned units such as the Dryads from Roused to Wrath, and is also in Core 3.1.

[Grimmlock619]

Played three 3.0 games. Two were after the FAQ. Won 1 and tied 2 due to time but I feel I could have come out on top of both. Against Soulblight with Nef (tied) and 2 SCE lists (won 1 and tied the other)

Wow.. the board control Sylvaneth have now I really strong. Yes, smash to rubble will stop us from teleporting but by turn 2 you should have on average 6-8 wyldwoods on the board. It's so easy to get a good save and negate rend. Alarielle and Warsong Revanent are really good in my opinion. I found myself, adding new cogs, that I was struggling to find spells to use haha. Treesong is a really good spell now with how many woods we can get on the board. My list is:

Warlord:
Alarielle - 740
All spells
Warsong Revanent - 275
General, Nurtured by Magic, Acorn of the Ages, All Spells
Branchwraith- 95
Chalice of Nectar, V Harmony
5 Tree-Revenants - 80

Hunters of the Heartlands:
20 Dryads - 190
5 Tree-Revenants - 80
6 Kurnoth Hunters w/ Scythes - 430
 

Chronomantic Cogs - 45
Spiteswarm Hive - 40

1975pts

I feel Sylvaneth will be in a much better spot in 3.0.

[JSH]

Thanks for the answers.

I have another question. I quote the Spirit Paths from the faq.

‘In your movement phase, if this unit is within 6" of an Awakened Wyldwood in your army, it can walk the spirit paths instead of making a normal move or retreating.’

If a treelord is engaged in combat, to teleport, it has to do it instead of a retreat move, right?

Does that mean he can't charge in the same turn?

 

[Abstract_duck]

52 minutes ago, JSH said:

Thanks for the answers.

I have another question. I quote the Spirit Paths from the faq.

‘In your movement phase, if this unit is within 6" of an Awakened Wyldwood in your army, it can walk the spirit paths instead of making a normal move or retreating.’

If a treelord is engaged in combat, to teleport, it has to do it instead of a retreat move, right?

Does that mean he can't charge in the same turn?

 

This topic was argued a few pages back. Basically it depends on your definition of 'instead of'. Considering it is a set up, and not a move, i would argue that you can still charge. It is not an alternative move/retreat action, but an alternative action to the move/retreat action

[plavski]

You can also run instead, as that's not a normal move or retreat. So you could hop out of combat, run to another point and capture it on the other side of the board.

[Kiekeboe]

15 hours ago, Pennydude said:

It looks like one of the playtesters, Laurie Huggett-Wilde, is gonna be playing with the 1” rule as well. I can see the argument for it especially with them adding the restriction to the BR: Kragnos woods warscroll and then removing it.

If we do place the three individual woods though, they just have to be placed more than 3” from each other. Still could be placed 1” away from other woods you’ve set up that game.

Not sure where you got that? In the Sylvaneth whatsapp chat we had this discussion yesterday (it's a once per week type of discussion, unfortunately, because we never reach a conclusion). Laurie stated there that he's going to be playing it as all woods '3" from everything bar models and 1" from them'. And that he has flagged it for the next FAQ. 

Edited July 5, 2021 by Kiekeboe

[Abstract_duck]

1 hour ago, plavski said:

You can also run instead, as that's not a normal move or retreat. So you could hop out of combat, run to another point and capture it on the other side of the board.

Ive never heard that one before, running after the set up. Can more people confirm this?

[plavski]

43 minutes ago, Abstract_duck said:

Ive never heard that one before, running after the set up. Can more people confirm this?

The new core rules define Run separately (8.3). It's not a Normal Move (8.1) or Retreat (8.2) as called out by the Spirit Paths ability. Ipso facto, if you can Charge, you can Run. You just can't move and run.

For further clarifrication, the goonhammer chaps and chapettes talk about it in the Battlesmith section of the Fyreslayers FAQ overview: https://www.goonhammer.com/age-of-sigmar-3-0-faq-fyreslayers/
 

Quote

One place where re-rolls have not left us is the Battlesmith. If the Battlesmith is killed then you still have the option to be able to guard the banner and gain re-roll hits and wounds with the unit that does for the rest of the game at the cost of no longer being able to make Normal moves or Charge moves. Interestingly this was not errata’d to disallow run moves, which are now entirely separate from normal moves, so you can pick it up and spring around the board to your heart’s content! You just can’t walk with it or charge with it. Expect this to change in the next FAQ when they actually pick up on it.

 

Edited July 5, 2021 by plavski

[Pennydude]

3 hours ago, Kiekeboe said:

Not sure where you got that? In the Sylvaneth whatsapp chat we had this discussion yesterday (it's a once per week type of discussion, unfortunately, because we never reach a conclusion). Laurie stated there that he's going to be playing it as all woods '3" from everything bar models and 1" from them'. And that he has flagged it for the next FAQ. 

It was on his Twitter page that he was gonna be playing it was 1” from everything. I’ll go double check.

[Pennydude]

Found the tweet, it’s from 1:29am CST on July 3 when he said he’d be following what the lore spell says. If he’s saying 3” from everything in WhatsApp, then he’s giving conflicting information.

[Kiekeboe]

1 hour ago, Pennydude said:

Found the tweet, it’s from 1:29am CST on July 3 when he said he’d be following what the lore spell says. If he’s saying 3” from everything in WhatsApp, then he’s giving conflicting information.

Haha that's great. He said there's another FAQ on the way (month or so) and he has flagged the issue. Let's hope it gets resolved then.