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RuneBrush

AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion

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11 minutes ago, dmorley21 said:

 

Great to hear on the win. On another note, I love the look for your army. What was your scheme? 

Thanks mate!
It's really just a ton of thinned down hexwraith flame, that's the theme. :P 

Lady Olynder.jpg

83002371_193723088469986_7938382126141931520_n.jpg

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1 hour ago, dmorley21 said:

 

Great to hear on the win. On another note, I love the look for your army. What was your scheme? 

Whenever I see these nice and ghosty themes I always wonder if I made a mistake with my theme... These are gorgeous!

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If today is army showcase day - what do you think about my graverose theme?20200716_203819.jpg.811d014746d295161307d4ff80112b7f.jpg20200716_183936.jpg.9a687dcd964db47d73690e5c0c41133c.jpg 

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10 minutes ago, Ranzou said:

If today is army showcase day - what do you think about my graverose theme?

That's really cool, too! That's a Ghyran Nighthaunt, there.

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Here they are all together. Collected to be powerful enough for competitive level and still be pleasure for eyes.

Black pads are magnetic shelves for transporting - 60 rasps and 30 reapers are too fragile for lazy transporting.

20200728_151026.jpg.a891251a40cc5513dbb0532aab4a749a.jpg

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All of these lovely pictures make me wish I had the interest/time/talent to paint my models better. 

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I tried the Mortal Rain list today from @EnixLHQ and it was a blast. I won a major victory against Stormcast Eternal (because he failed a charge I have to say) 

I think that one of the strongest things in the list is that all our units are battle line, so we can easily fight for the objectives in case it says that it has to be claimed with a battle line. 

Any advices on how to drop from the underworld? I left on reserve reikenor, 2 units of 5 hexwraith, olynder and 10 chainrasps. Do you think is better to keep hexwraith on the underworld?  Or to set them with the rest of the army? 

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40 minutes ago, Astara said:

Any advices on how to drop from the underworld? I left on reserve reikenor, 2 units of 5 hexwraith, olynder and 10 chainrasps. Do you think is better to keep hexwraith on the underworld?  Or to set them with the rest of the army? 

Another great thing about that list is how many options you have for Underworlds. I think you made a fine choice. I've dropped as little as just Olynder and her screen, and as much as a full half the army.

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Quick question: does anyone know the rule for returning slain models into combat/daisy chaining them to pull other units in? I have seen people mention an FAQ on this matter but I cannot seem to locate it. 

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4 minutes ago, Btimmy said:

Quick question: does anyone know the rule for returning slain models into combat/daisy chaining them to pull other units in? I have seen people mention an FAQ on this matter but I cannot seem to locate it. 

Quote

Q: Some abilities and spells, etc, allow me to return slain models to one of my units. Could you explain how these models are set up?
A: Set up the models one at a time within 1" of a model from the unit they are returning to – this can be a model you returned to the unit earlier in the same phase. The slain models you return to a unit can only be set up within 3" of an enemy unit if one or more models from the unit they are returning to are already within 3" of that enemy unit.

The second half of the answer covers pulling enemy units into combat.

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Thats perfect! Where can I find the source for that?

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On 7/27/2020 at 5:45 PM, Snoogens said:

Managed to grab another win today! This time it was versus Seraphon, a really wonky magic focused list with Kroak.

I gave him the first turn, which after his hero phase felt like a major mistake, however I really didnt want to get double turned.

A grand total of 20 MWs went through in his Hero Phase. My general died, several SHs and Black Coach was down to like 2 Wounds.

It looked stupid, but that was essentially all his list did. Barely anything in shooting, and nothing in combat.

So all deep striking (Lady O, 10 Chainrasps and the 30 Grimghasts) spread out over two objectives - while the SHs sat in the middle and the 40 Rasps + GoS on another one. 

6 VP(NH) vs 2 VP (Seraphon)

I didnt get the double turn. Thought I was screwed at this point. He made a crazy Lord Arcanum combo with Purple Sun and 8 CP. It moved over 40 Rasps, 6 SHs and 30 Reapers. However it totally flunked and killed a total of like 5 models, none of which were SHs.
Reikenor managed a cheeky move + charge and pile-in move which got me a 5th point in the second round.

Once it was my turn, I had all objectives. Thats another 8 VP, and the next turn again he just couldnt get me off them as I could the double. 8 VP again.

At this point, Round 3, I had like 22 or 24 points, versus his like 6 points or something, so it was pretty much over.

We sure suck at fighting compared to most, but out flexible deep strike and fast moving models make us really good at the objective game.

easy peasy lemon squeezy!

 

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34479F5D-AFCD-4108-9756-5FDF6B75E63C.jpeg

Good job and good report, mate.

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FAQ and Designer's commentary live ! 

Quote

Q: The Pitched Battle Profiles 2020 book does not include profiles for warscrolls or warscroll battalions from previous editions of White Dwarf magazine, from battleboxes like Carrion Empire or for store-exclusive limited edition models. Can I use these profiles in Pitched Battle (2020) games? A: Yes, but only if your opponent agrees or a house rule permits it.

That settles it for our Battalions I guess.

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TOs can allow it but I wouldn't count on it. Goodbye to our best battalion...

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Hope we'll get a new Battletome that puts all these external armies back together in one book, with reworked mechanics and such. 

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33 minutes ago, BaylorCorvette said:

Would seem Legion of Grief is out now too.

Forgotten Powers is not an old publication because you still can buy it from the store. So, Legion of Grief is legal.

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This complicates things for no communicated or foreseeable reason. House rules? In order to stand a competitive chance we have to convince our opponent we need the pity? We have to wait for some non-existent tournament to set the standard?

Suppose that's not too hard to convince a friend we need help, right? I'm sure through all the snickering from the local tablemoths at the game store (that we can't gather at) they'll let the battalions though...

This doesn't feel right. I want to be hopeful that something is coming for us so that all of this make sense, but I haven't seen anything from GW to get the hype up for anything new. This feels like a gut punch, and as we're reeling I'm wondering why they hit us. Let alone so hard.

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1 hour ago, EnixLHQ said:

This complicates things for no communicated or foreseeable reason. House rules? In order to stand a competitive chance we have to convince our opponent we need the pity? We have to wait for some non-existent tournament to set the standard?

Suppose that's not too hard to convince a friend we need help, right? I'm sure through all the snickering from the local tablemoths at the game store (that we can't gather at) they'll let the battalions though...

This doesn't feel right. I want to be hopeful that something is coming for us so that all of this make sense, but I haven't seen anything from GW to get the hype up for anything new. This feels like a gut punch, and as we're reeling I'm wondering why they hit us. Let alone so hard.

I am afraid the wording is rather clear: it’s the British way of telling you “forget about this stuff in actual tournaments, but do feel free to play it with your mates”. 

Now:

  • It’s ok. I had some success with the Dolorous Guard before (if mostly outside Nighthaunt, but that’s in the past now...) and in order to bring that battalion to the table I converted 5 boxes of Dreadblade Harrows because I couldn’t and I still cannot bring myself to suffer the Hexwraiths models (maybe it’s just me but they look awful...).  Am I upset about it? Yeah, a bit. What good does it make to whine (not saying that anyone is but there is a risk)? None - we don’t make the rules. Let’s open Warscroll Builder once more (is there anything we like more than that? Naaah...) and get to work.
  • It’s ok - you can still use your models. Think of the Tomb Kings players - they have all the reasons to be properly GUTTED, that’s a ton of plastic in the bin.
  • They’re taking away from us - from a faction which is already struggling (but still has some play, let’s be honest). Fair. And yet,  the Great Wheel of Power Creep shall roll again, folks - perhaps one day we shall be at the receiving end of a massive boon. Until then, let’s play with what we have.
  • I never liked or played Legion of Grief - it didn’t make any sense to me. Personal taste, of course, but I am somehow glad that’s gone.
  • I would never dream to ask a TO “hey, can I roll my Dolorous Guard?”
  • I am getting a tad bit fed up with the usual “Nighthaunt suck” argument. It might or might not be true (some other factions are struggling even more at the moment IMHO), but what I’d like to see is some creative juice that plays with the stuff that we actually have. I am sure some interesting/crazy dare I say it competitive builds are still out there for Nighthaunt, waiting to be found. I feel it’s time to embark on that quest as opposed to endlessly moan about how poorly we are faring.

Having said that... darn, 5 boxes of Harrows! ******...

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Nighthaunt, as a faction and in a competitive sense, is not that bad. We're called "trash-tier" by, mainly, those that don't want to take the time to really learn the tricks and tactics needed for a legitimately "hard mode" faction. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that if you insist on playing Nighthaunt you're playing the Dark Souls of AoS (yes, truly, let's compare the two) and that should be a sense of pride. It is for me, for sure. I've learned so much sticking to Nighthaunt.

But, if you give those who call us "trash tier" a listen, they sometimes come up with some pretty good points. One in particular is how we have no reliable answer for a hard-hitting shooting or magic phase.

No single army in AoS is so perfectly balanced that they can take on every other army with the exact same chances of winning. That's not possible, nor should we lie to ourselves that it's a goal we should strive for. But, most armies have enough tricks or are centered around abilities that give them tools to answer as many potential outcomes as needed against most armies. An army with a hugely strong hero phase will also generally mean a strong unbinding ability. Armies with strong shooting phases usually mean enhanced potency if they stay and fight it out. Armies with strong combat phases usually mean they can reliably count on their combat effectiveness. And, lastly, armies with strong movement usually get their movement through actionable abilities. Any one of those strong phases usually means weaker other phases for balance, and that makes sense.

We don't have this balance. This is why we're hard mode.

I have a rant below. I wrote it, deleted it, and then wrote it out again. I'm going to hide it under the spoiler tag so you don't have to read it. And you probably shouldn't. But I'll make this point here even if you don't: I have tried to stay positive about NH for over a year now, doing my absolute best to get both community and GW feedback on how to excel with the faction only to be constantly ridiculed and literally laughed at for it. I have put together a guide so that others can benefit from the work I put in. And now? Now I think I need to take a break and step away from it all. This FAQ was just the last straw for me. Maybe I'll chime in again if they start talking about a new book or something, but after this I don't have a lot of faith. Tomb Kings became OBR, if we're being real. If we have to wait as long for NH to become something, I think I'm done with the game. I just can't keep fighting this brick wall.

Spoiler

 

So you want to see the rant anyway? Okay, fine. Just why are we "hard mode," then?

To have a strong hero phase we need to put a lot of points into single models on the table. Reikenor, Olynder, save the artifact slot for GoS and the Wychlight, put Midnight Tome on someone. Now we can unbind, but we're still shades weaker than any other army who naturally has a strong hero phase. They get bonuses to their casting, we get at most +1 at the cost of an artifact. Their bonuses often push their die rolls of 8 or higher into the 12+ range, making the points we spent to unbind them useless. And I don't mean "often" like once a game, I mean "often" like maybe every other cast. There's the other option for us, though, making our hero phase our model-return phase, which we absolutely should. But this also means that we run the risk of not having anything to bring back since we won't be able to shut much of an opposing force down. But this is okay, right? Surely we make up for it in a later phase like other hero/magic weak armies do.

To have a strong shooting phase we need to... What? Bring way more Chainghasts than is healthy? And somehow get them close enough without them dying? AND somehow navigate their wildly swingy amount of attacks? Fill out our hero spots with Tomb Banshees? Cripple our Black Coach with the Grasp? We don't have a shooting phase. This means that the opponent's shooting phase will likely take place with our units in range. We obviously can't fight at range, so we have to get closer, and if we played cat-and-mouse, they only have to come within their ranged unit's distance to pick us off an objective without us being able to fight back.

Okay... So if we lack in the hero and shooting phases we should make up for it in the movement and combat phases, right?

We're fast, north of 6" for everyone and averaging 8" for the army, with a few doing 12" or even a 14" in there. We need that speed, after all, in order to close those distances to engage ranged units before they get free shots on us. We also gain Underworlds, which is pretty scary to an opponent if you put some threatening units in there that you can pop out at them. But that's it. Well, that's it for free. Once a unit comes out of the Underworlds they can't go back in, so no Skaven ghawhole jumping for us. If we want to grab a unit and put it anywhere else on the field we need to use Spectral Summons. That costs a CP. And if we want a tactical choice of where the general is in order to do that, your general is a Dreadblade. This isn't a strong movement phase, it's a costly one, both in the CP it takes to actually make these moves and in the investment in a general who now will focus on this instead of other stronger roles in the army. Just like in the hero phase, if we invest in making this phase work the other phases lack even more.

And lastly, there's the combat phase. This is the only area in which we can naturally have a strong phase without necessarily investing in it. But even here we've got an uphill battle. Our combat potency often relies on enough bodies surviving all of the above in order to be in combat range. And, thanks to the potential of Wave of Terror, our combat profiles are often less than our enemies. In a straight fight, no other bonuses considered, our units will take on wounds out of proportion to what we deal with. Maybe 2:1 if I were to put an arbitrary number to it. That's in combat alone, so figuring in magic and shooting, we're putting out maybe 3:1. Factor in bonuses and this goes up to 4:1 in favor for our opponents, because our bonuses are ****** compared to what our opponents can offer. Our entire combat phase, then, hinges on one key principle and one natural ability: Attacking important enemy units with >1 of our own units and getting at least one Wave of Terror off. Since our combat effectiveness comes down to whether or not we still have the bodies on the table by the combat phase to fight at all, AND if we can roll a 10, this is the moment we can decide a game.

Up until this point our opponents have been deciding the game. We rely on them either not bringing enough to down us in the other phases, or being fast enough to intercept us, or being tactically sound enough to see us coming. As soon as they are, though, our only answer to is to roll a 10. Let me state that again: we rely on our opponent NOT capitalizing on any of their own phases each and every round, holding out until we can get close with enough bodies left that a roll of a 10 decides if we should keep playing or not.

This isn't balanced. This is gambling at the casino. The entire rest of our tactical set is to figure out how to arrive at this one singular point and hope for a 10. We even advocate for weaker cheaper units on the table just so we have more chances at that 10, and advise not spending your CP so you can try to re-roll for that 10. It all, literally, comes down to that 10.

And if we get it, woo boy, we're back in the game! If we get it twice, though, then our opponents get all pouty about how we're suddenly in some way overpowered. Excuse me? You deleted a block of Bladegheists in your hero phase. You brought 40 Chainraps down to 10 in your shooting phase. This was all on casting rolls and combat rolls that you will achieve again. I have to rely on a 16.67% chance per what's left of a unit. Oh, and only once per unit unless it can retreat and charge again, or was lucky enough to wipe out the enemy unit so it could fight again.

If the combat phase is supposed to be the phase we're the strongest in, to make up for how little we get elsewhere, then we're sorely lacking.

And this is hard mode in the same vein as playing a video game where your skill gets you to the boss, but it's RNG on whether or not the boss does their insta-kill move or not.

 

I need a break. See ya around.

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I've been thinking on how to change the Mortal Rain list from @EnixLHQ now that we have response from GW about the Dolorous Guard battalion. This is my proposal:

 

Allegiance: Nighthaunt

LEADERS

Guardian of Souls with Nightmare Lantern (130) - Lore of the Underworlds : Shademist

Lady Olynder, Mortarch of Grief (200) - Lore of the Underworlds : Soul Cage

Reikenor the Grimhailer (160) - Lore of the Underworlds : Lifestealer

Spirit Torment (120) - General - Command Trait : Ruler of the Spirit Hosts - Artefact : Pendant of the Fell Wind 

UNITS 40 x Chainrasp Horde (280)

5 x Hexwraiths (130)

5 x Hexwraiths (130)

9 x Spirit Hosts (360)

10 x Grimghast Reapers (160)

BEHEMOTHS

Black Coach (220)

ENDLESS SPELLS / TERRAIN / COMMAND POINTS

Prismatic Palisade (30)

Chronomantic Cogs (80) TOTAL: 2000/2000 WOUNDS: 133 LEADERS: 4/6 BATTLELINES: 5 (3+) BEHEMOTHS: 1/4 ARTILLERY: 0/4 ARTEFACTS: 1/1 ENDLESS SPELLS: 2/3 ALLIES: 0/400

The idea behind this list is using Chronomantic Cogs (with the +3 from Reikenor) so we can move the Hexwraiths 17" on movement phase (12 from the characteristic, +3 from the Pendant and +2 from the Cogs). With this idea in mind, along with our Black Coach, we can surprise our opponent and put our calvalry right where we need it and make a charge, so we can even kill an unit while our blob of Spirit Host are already advancing. 

Meanwhile, we'll hold Olynder with 10 Grimreapers as a bait, so our opponent can't commit a side due to our ability to deepstrike. Besides, this pack are both a threat, and a distraction. 

Our first priority should be getting objectives and doing some charges so we can lower their numbers, and try to outplay our opponent with our high mobility. 

Even failing with the casting of the Cogs, we are moving 15" with the hexwraiths, and their priority should be to engage the enemy so they can't move while we score points from other objectives. 

I"ll try this list next week, but any ideas are welcome! 

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