AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion

[Undeadly]

So, after racking my brain for a bit on how to make a effective NH only army for a more competative setting, I think that I may have come up with something that might be pretty good. 

 

Allegiance: Nighthaunt
Knight of Shrouds on Ethereal Steed(140)
- Artefact: Midnight Tome 
Reikenor the Grimhailer (180)
- Lore of the Underworlds: Soul Cage
Spirit Torment (120)
Guardian of Souls with Nightmare Lantern (140)
- General
- Trait: Cloaked in Shadow 
- Lore of the Underworlds: Shademist
30 x Grimghast Reapers (360)
30 x Grimghast Reapers (360)
40 x Chainrasp Horde (280)
8 x Myrmourn Banshees (160)
4 x Chainghasts (160)
Chronomantic Cogs (60)

Total: 1960 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 139Allegiance: Nighthaunt

Leaders
Knight of Shrouds on Ethereal Steed(140)
- Artefact: Midnight Tome 
Reikenor the Grimhailer (180)
- Lore of the Underworlds: Soul Cage
Spirit Torment (120)
Guardian of Souls with Nightmare Lantern (140)
- General
- Trait: Cloaked in Shadow 
- Lore of the Underworlds: Shademist

Battleline
30 x Grimghast Reapers (360)
30 x Grimghast Reapers (360)
40 x Chainrasp Horde (280)

Units
8 x Myrmourn Banshees (160)
4 x Chainghasts (160)

Endless Spells
Chronomantic Cogs (60)
Aethervoid Pendulum (40)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 139

The basic principle of this list is to overwhelm the enemy with a fairly deadly alpha strike with the Cogs and a horde of Grimghasts; Reiknor is there to ensure that I get out the cogs the moment I need to, and get those critical charges off. I put in a fair amount of magic users in to make the best use of my Endless spells, and to ensure that Soul Cage will go off. Midnight tome gives me a bit more versatility with the KoSoS, by giving me a back up Soulcage and ES spell vector, as well as buffing up my Grimghasts or Mymourns.

Grimghasts will be used to engage pretty much anything; one will surge up the field, the other will deep strike with the ST and KoS most of the time, although that can change. They are a pretty silly killy unit with those 2" scythes, and 2 attacks a piece. Anything with a rather good defence will most likely die, and they seem to be excellent at blending others while sticking around. 

Mymourns are a assassination unit of sorts, going after bigger monsters or mages. When given that extra attack from a KoS and a nearby Spirit Torment, there are very few things that can survive that onslaught. Plus, they can work as a back up in case a ES gets out of hand, or if I need to deny an enemy spell.

Chainrasps will be an objective sitter, hanging back and holding objectives, or moving up to tarpit enemy hard hitters. While not exsctly deadly, I don't think that there's much in the game that can delete a turn of Chainrasps.

Chainghasts are a really fun and versatile unit, giving us some ranged attacks to chip wounds off heros, and help put a dent into enemy hordes when needed. But at the same time, I would really love to split the Chainrasps into two units and use the Chainguard Battalion; or, use them for extra CP. So they're the biggest point of contention to me. 

 

Also, something I'd like to bring up, but I think I may have found a use for Harrows; after reading their redeploy ability, it us stated that it occurs at the beginning of the movement phase. It also occurs to me that the Spirit Calling CA happens at the start of the movement phase. If I remember correctly, if two abilities say they start at the beginning of the sane phase, they both go off, but you get to choose the order, meaning you can redeplo your units for free.

thoughts?

[dmorley21]

3 hours ago, TheWolfLord said:

It improves the chances of getting Wave of Terror from 16.67% to 27.77% so it’s pretty decent especially with reroll charges. 

If you use the Cogs you can deep strike 9” away and only need a 6” charge.

Black Coach’s are great, Hexwraiths are great and a Harrow is really handy to grab objectives so it’s all round useful.

It's definitely useful. 

My thinking is my Deathriders battalion may average about 5 charges a game, and that might be optimistic. 

Meanwhile, if I'm sinking points into the Black Coach and Hexwraiths, chances are I'm going to be low on units/models which I'll want for objectives and board control. 

I could deep strike the battalion, but with their awesome movement I think I'd rather deep strike other forces and just deploy the hexwraiths and coach on a flank and deep strike other, slower models that aren't meant as main blob tar pits or anvils.

As for the harrow, my opinion is constantly shifting. As a teleporting wizard, it's a very useful model. But it doesn't generate bugs for other units, and I've always loved the Tomb Banshee so I'm just not sure if I want to drop a 100 pts on one. 

[GeneralZero]

6 minutes ago, dmorley21 said:

As for the harrow, my opinion is constantly shifting. As a teleporting wizard, it's a very useful model

they are not wizzard 

[dmorley21]

28 minutes ago, GeneralZero said:

they are not wizzard 

You're right. I wouldn't take one without giving it midnight tome, so mine would be a wizard as I see that being where it has value. 

[GeneralZero]

1 hour ago, dmorley21 said:

midnight tome

good to know 

[Evil Bob]

Reminds me of those annoying teleporting skink wizards. I can almost taste the sweet revenge.

[TheWolfLord]

A Harrow as your general initial sounds like a bad idea but they offer a really good combo with our Command Ability Spectral Summons. Both happen at the start of the movement phase so you could teleport the Harrow 9” away from a key target then use the Command Ability a few times to transport a nasty unit or 2. 

Im not sure if it’ll be a key tactic but it’s worth testing to see what can be done with it.

[Nactigal]

So what are you all going to run on the black coach -- Soulreach grasp or Reaper scythe?

The reaper scythe seems way better. I don't think the ranged attack is worth the loss of more rerolling attacks and mortal wounds. Thoughts?

 

[lord_blackfang]

5 hours ago, Nactigal said:

So what are you all going to run on the black coach -- Soulreach grasp or Reaper scythe?

The reaper scythe seems way better. I don't think the ranged attack is worth the loss of more rerolling attacks and mortal wounds. Thoughts?

 

They're about equal overall, but over 10 combat rounds the grasp puts out an average of 20 wounds on anything with a 4+ save or worse (and half of that can be from 10" away), while the scythe will do 30+ vs chaff but only 12-13 to a single 4+ save monster. So it really comes down to what type of units you want to hunt.

[Oogje]

12 hours ago, Undeadly said:

So, after racking my brain for a bit on how to make a effective NH only army for a more competative setting, I think that I may have come up with something that might be pretty good. 

 

Allegiance: Nighthaunt
Knight of Shrouds on Ethereal Steed(140)
- Artefact: Midnight Tome 
Reikenor the Grimhailer (180)
- Lore of the Underworlds: Soul Cage
Spirit Torment (120)
Guardian of Souls with Nightmare Lantern (140)
- General
- Trait: Cloaked in Shadow 
- Lore of the Underworlds: Shademist
30 x Grimghast Reapers (360)
30 x Grimghast Reapers (360)
40 x Chainrasp Horde (280)
8 x Myrmourn Banshees (160)
4 x Chainghasts (160)
Chronomantic Cogs (60)

Total: 1960 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 139Allegiance: Nighthaunt

Leaders
Knight of Shrouds on Ethereal Steed(140)
- Artefact: Midnight Tome 
Reikenor the Grimhailer (180)
- Lore of the Underworlds: Soul Cage
Spirit Torment (120)
Guardian of Souls with Nightmare Lantern (140)
- General
- Trait: Cloaked in Shadow 
- Lore of the Underworlds: Shademist

Battleline
30 x Grimghast Reapers (360)
30 x Grimghast Reapers (360)
40 x Chainrasp Horde (280)

Units
8 x Myrmourn Banshees (160)
4 x Chainghasts (160)

Endless Spells
Chronomantic Cogs (60)
Aethervoid Pendulum (40)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 139

The basic principle of this list is to overwhelm the enemy with a fairly deadly alpha strike with the Cogs and a horde of Grimghasts; Reiknor is there to ensure that I get out the cogs the moment I need to, and get those critical charges off. I put in a fair amount of magic users in to make the best use of my Endless spells, and to ensure that Soul Cage will go off. Midnight tome gives me a bit more versatility with the KoSoS, by giving me a back up Soulcage and ES spell vector, as well as buffing up my Grimghasts or Mymourns.

Grimghasts will be used to engage pretty much anything; one will surge up the field, the other will deep strike with the ST and KoS most of the time, although that can change. They are a pretty silly killy unit with those 2" scythes, and 2 attacks a piece. Anything with a rather good defence will most likely die, and they seem to be excellent at blending others while sticking around. 

Mymourns are a assassination unit of sorts, going after bigger monsters or mages. When given that extra attack from a KoS and a nearby Spirit Torment, there are very few things that can survive that onslaught. Plus, they can work as a back up in case a ES gets out of hand, or if I need to deny an enemy spell.

Chainrasps will be an objective sitter, hanging back and holding objectives, or moving up to tarpit enemy hard hitters. While not exsctly deadly, I don't think that there's much in the game that can delete a turn of Chainrasps.

Chainghasts are a really fun and versatile unit, giving us some ranged attacks to chip wounds off heros, and help put a dent into enemy hordes when needed. But at the same time, I would really love to split the Chainrasps into two units and use the Chainguard Battalion; or, use them for extra CP. So they're the biggest point of contention to me. 

 

Also, something I'd like to bring up, but I think I may have found a use for Harrows; after reading their redeploy ability, it us stated that it occurs at the beginning of the movement phase. It also occurs to me that the Spirit Calling CA happens at the start of the movement phase. If I remember correctly, if two abilities say they start at the beginning of the sane phase, they both go off, but you get to choose the order, meaning you can redeplo your units for free.

thoughts?

That's a list with a plan of attack! Not sure about the midnight tome, I don't think the magic is particularly strong and with the banshees you have enough to dispel. But I wouldn't know which one I'd replace it with. 

 

Also would chainghast be a nice Backline objective holder why they atleast impact the board with a shooting attack? Bubble them with chainrasp.. I don't know definitely going to try this essence this core that you thought up in a vanguard game to get a good feel of what nighthaunt does best. 

 

Thanks for the ideas

[KoalaSnok]

6 hours ago, Nactigal said:

So what are you all going to run on the black coach -- Soulreach grasp or Reaper scythe?

The reaper scythe seems way better. I don't think the ranged attack is worth the loss of more rerolling attacks and mortal wounds. Thoughts?

 

Worth noting is the fact that a leveled up coach can run/retreat and charge, but not run/retreat and shoot. Also the scythe still rerolls hit rolls of 1 against sub-5 units. (All its melee attacks do).

Edited July 25, 2018 by KoalaSnok

[TheWolfLord]

I’m having the same quandary about the Black Coach weapon choice. 

I think in the end it’ll be the Soulreach Grasp for the extra utility it offers. There will be times I want to try to finish off a model or unit on a couple of wounds and charge something completely different. 

Depending on the kit I may magnetise the options at first.

[Neck-Romantic]

We havnt seen if there is a weapon option for soulreach

[Nevar]

Mobility is key in AoS, and there are missions now that require wizards, heroes, and artifact bearers to score at all.

On top of that I cannot list the amount of times I have lost a game because a wing of Hexwraiths fell just short of reaching a critical objective.

Ignoring the objective play, Dreadblades can teleport behind enemy lines to hunt warmachines, wizards, and archers.  As noted above, they can also potentially teleport units as your general very similar to the Necron 'Veil of Darkness' trick in 40k which is seen as a key tactical tool for the metal skeletons, and in 40k that is a one time use trick.  We can potentially do this every battle round.   teleporting hero for only 100 points is astoundingly good.  Make him a wizard and he only gets better.

Remember that any good player will know we can and will 'deep-strike' our ghosts, and will very often deploy to prevent us from reaching their back line.  With other reserve units this means they have to sit out of the action for potentially multiple turns while we wait for an opening to drop them in for maximum impact.  Dreadblades can be on the table turn 1 and contribute to the war effort while also keeping an eye for opportunities to relocate and cause havoc in the enemy rear guard.

Add to these tactical benefits that help you kill your enemies, you also have a unit that can poof off to capture back field objectives.  All of this use, for 100 points.

What a steal.

[Kirjava13]

Just need to vent that the plastic on the Casket of Souls endless spell makes it an absolute rage-fest to put together, and I'm angry because of that.

That is all.

[Nevar]

3 minutes ago, Kirjava13 said:

Just need to vent that the Casket of Souls endless spell is mostly useless, especially when compared to the Everburning Comet, and I'm angry because of that.

That is all.

There I fixed it.

[Kirjava13]

? 

[Neck-Romantic]

Lol. After building spirit hosts and ghost arks I am numb to building woes

[Nevar]

Just now, Kirjava13 said:

?

❤️ 

I was at first disappointed with the Nighthaunt models mostly being push-fit, but I have come to the conclusion that it was the best option for how floaty our sweet sweet ghosties are.  Maybe that kit needs to be the way it is?

[Overread]

1 minute ago, Nevar said:

❤️

I was at first disappointed with the Nighthaunt models mostly being push-fit, but I have come to the conclusion that it was the best option for how floaty our sweet sweet ghosties are.  Maybe that kit needs to be the way it is?

Pushfit is a lot more fun than putting arms on things like Slaanesh deamonetts where you  are basically holding one smooth bit of arm against another smooth bit of arm and hoping that the glue cures just right that you can't see a seam or that you're not 1mm out of alignment. 

[Nevar]

3 minutes ago, Overread said:

Pushfit is a lot more fun than putting arms on things like Slaanesh deamonetts where you  are basically holding one smooth bit of arm against another smooth bit of arm and hoping that the glue cures just right that you can't see a seam or that you're not 1mm out of alignment. 

Oh it has helped me ramp up my collection fast for sure, and I quickly moved on to painting.  However I am somewhat of a humble hobby hero who likes to do conversions and hates having duplicate models.  So I usually have a knee-****** negative reaction to Push-Fit, and GW is not really known for doing large amounts of Push-Fit.  I was most surprised when Reikenor and the Dreadblades came out to see they were both push fit.

Still... I clearly have had a change of heart with the ghosts, as I was disappointed that the new Grimghasts are -not- push-fit for some reason.

[Neck-Romantic]

This.

Confused as to why some are and some arent so far.

Honestly it could go either way for me, just hoping I wont have to clean up seams on Bladegheists

Edited July 25, 2018 by Neck-Romantic

[Shinzra]

Hey everyone, 

 

Just wanted to ask in terms of competitive play (Whilst probably to early to say), how are Nighthaunt looking overall?, I have some parts from the soul wars set and thinking of building them up and adding more at a later stage.

[Nevar]

1 minute ago, Shinzra said:

Hey everyone, 

 

Just wanted to ask in terms of competitive play (Whilst probably to early to say), how are Nighthaunt looking overall?, I have some parts from the soul wars set and thinking of building them up and adding more at a later stage.

It really is too soon to tell, but Legions of Nagash benefited pretty heavily with the release of these new Nighthaunt units and you can be very competitive with ghost bois in the normal Legion of Nagash armies.

I think Nighthaunt has the potential to be competitive, but I think from a macro dirt sketch of an idea, Nighthaunt seems like they are an army that you need a bit more finesse to really bring the shine out of.  Nighthaunt has really good faction abilities if you want to play in a few specific ways.  Fast alpha striking, leadership debuffs, or deployment options are all strengths of the Nighthaunt.  To get those, they trade a lot of the durability and regeneration capabilities of the normal Legions of Nagash factions.  The flying rend immune saves are great,  but when you can have them in Legions of Nagash plus all the model returning healing it is only an exponential increase in durability and attrition capabilities for the Legion of Nagash factions.  For Nighthaunt those saves are what keep us from melting to a stiff breeze.

Basically, Nighthaunt are the 'glass cannon' version of Death.  Though we are not nearly as fragile as other glass cannons, nor do we hit as hard as other glass cannons, in the pantheon of factions controlled by Nagash, we are the fasty boys who have to do it just right or we get punished harshly.

[Nactigal]

9 hours ago, lord_blackfang said:

They're about equal overall, but over 10 combat rounds the grasp puts out an average of 20 wounds on anything with a 4+ save or worse (and half of that can be from 10" away), while the scythe will do 30+ vs chaff but only 12-13 to a single 4+ save monster. So it really comes down to what type of units you want to hunt.

Please let me know if I screwed up my math somewhere. I'm happy to correct it. Let's Mathhammer!!

In melee the soulreach grasp causes a save 52% of the time with unholy vigour.

(p(Hit) + p(roll 1)*p(Hit)) * p(Wound)

= (4/6 + 1/6 * 4/6) * 4/6 = .518518...

In the best scenario (no save, unholy vigour), this gives an average wounds per round of

p(cause save) * average damage per hit

= .518* 2 = 1.036 wounds.

In shooting, the grasp doesn't get rerolls. It also happens about half the time.

p(hit)*p(wound) * average damage / 2 = .4444

Total wounds = 1.036 + .44 = 1.476

Additionally you lose it's benefit of versitility in combat as you can only shoot what is in melee with you.

The attacks get worse against ignore rend or many low save models. They get better with more attacks (from KoS command ability).

 

On the other hand we have the Reaper Scythe

(p(hit) - p(rolling 6)) = p(normal hit) 

= 3/6 - 1/6 = 2/6

p(normal hit) + p(roll 1)*p(normal hit) = p(normal hit with rerolls)

= 2/6 + 1/6 * 2/6 = .38889

p(normal hit with rerolls) * p(wound) = p(cause a save)

= .38889 * 4/6 * 3= .259259

Average damage by saves

p(cause a save) * p(fail save -1 rend) * # of attacks * damage per attack

2+: .2593 * 2/6 *3 *2 = .5185

3+: .2593 * 3/6 * 3 = .7778

4+: .2593 * 4/6 * 3 = 1.037

5+ .2593 * 5/6 * 3 = 1.2963

6+ .2593 * 6/6 * 3 = 1.5556

Reaping Scythe will also cause mortals on a hit of six so let's calculate that and add it in.

p(roll 6) + p(roll 1) * p(roll 6) = p(frightful touch)

= 1/6 + 1/6 * 1/6 = .1944

p(frightful touch) * # attacks * damage = average mortal wounds

= .1944 * 3 * 2 = 1.166

TL;DR

The scythe will have higher average damage against all saves thanks to mortal wounds. Since there are more attacks and static damage. The variance is going to be less -- this attack should be more reliable and higher damage.

Soulreach grasp is good against high save targets, but worse damage overall. It also benefits more from extra attack buffs. The attack is more versitile in target selection. However, some of the damage comes from shooting with doesn't happen every combat. It is also prone to common shooting debuffs. Lastly, it doesn't work when the coach runs.

 

I'm going to run the Scythe in most cases, since it will probably cause more damage. If you like the freedom to choose backline tagets, take the grasp.

 

 

Edited July 25, 2018 by Nactigal
Math correction on soulreach grasp.