AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion

[The_Dudemeister]

Super excited for Mega-Gargants and I hope they become a meta pick. Every army can ally in one of them and because GW really likes pushing new models, they might be "quite good".

From today's warhammer-community article two things immediately came to mind.

First, virtually all their attacks are rend -2 and -3. So no matter how OP their offensive capabilities are, they're at least less effective against us.

Second, they have 35 wounds. Spirit Drain! You want a roundabout 6 mortal wound spell on a casting value of 4? Because that's how you get a roundabout 6 mortal wound spell on a casting value of 4.

[Neck-Romantic]

Soulsnare shackles and the Briar Queen maybe? Drop their movement down to nil 

 

Or model up a big zombie gargant to shamble alongside your ghost flotilla

Edited October 8, 2020 by Neck-Romantic

[Thamalys]

15 hours ago, The_Dudemeister said:

Super excited for Mega-Gargants and I hope they become a meta pick.

Their price tag is (allegedly) very steep, even for plastic addicts such as ourselves... we'll have to see!

[lare2]

I love them. Would happily pick them up if I wasn't so addicted to Death. Can't wait to face off against them though. Seeing those bad lads bearing down on my ghosties is gonna be a real sight. 

First thing I noticed, they have a lot of high rend attacks... this made me chuckle. 

[EnixLHQ]

18 hours ago, Landohammer said:

Hey guys, here is a tough question. Now that Legion of Grief is unquestionably legal again, what is the most competitive way to field a majority Nighthaunt army? 

It's not as cut-and-dry as that. Wave of Terror is an ability that can't be countered once enabled, for example, while the Necromancer's Dance Macabre is an unbindable spell that can only be attempted once per phase and only enables fight twice, which can have a counter attack occur. Low chance of WoT happening, but no limit on the units it triggers for vs a spell your opponent will almost certainly look to shut down.

It's really about accident forgiveness. Nighthaunt has all these tools to leverage current battleplans, including most of our non-heroes being battleline for the extra points. But it isn't forgiving if you mess up your tactics or your opponent out plays you.

Legion of Grief, however, is a slower style that has a lot of forgiveness for mistakes built in. Your opponents can muck this up for you by deliberately trying not to kill your entire units, but in general if you find yourself in a bad situation you can spend a CP and undo it, assuming your gravesites aren't camped to prevent this. And, you can place those gravesites where you know there is going to be heavy fighting to get constant heals, where NH has to put heroes in danger to match that.

I prefer straight NH, but I like both. There's no clear answer. LoG was considered more competitive before the shutdown because of that forgiveness, but that was before the Emerald Host.

[Landohammer]

1 minute ago, EnixLHQ said:

It's not as cut-and-dry as that. Wave of Terror is an ability that can't be countered once enabled, for example, while the Necromancer's Dance Macabre is an unbindable spell that can only be attempted once per phase and only enables fight twice, which can have a counter attack occur. Low chance of WoT happening, but no limit on the units it triggers for vs a spell your opponent will almost certainly look to shut down.

It's really about accident forgiveness. Nighthaunt has all these tools to leverage current battleplans, including most of our non-heroes being battleline for the extra points. But it isn't forgiving if you mess up your tactics or your opponent out plays you.

Legion of Grief, however, is a slower style that has a lot of forgiveness for mistakes built in. Your opponents can muck this up for you by deliberately trying not to kill your entire units, but in general if you find yourself in a bad situation you can spend a CP and undo it, assuming your gravesites aren't camped to prevent this. And, you can place those gravesites where you know there is going to be heavy fighting to get constant heals, where NH has to put heroes in danger to match that.

I prefer straight NH, but I like both. There's no clear answer. LoG was considered more competitive before the shutdown because of that forgiveness, but that was before the Emerald Host.

Fair. I saw a Legion of Grief Chainrasp list podium at a big tournament recently so it had me re-assessing my allegiance lol

Question though: What specifically about Emerald Host made us more competitive? Is it the potential for a single drop? I like that idea but the 3 battalion taxes was a pretty hefty price tag. I really like Dolorous Guard on its own though. Especially since I am already bringing Hexwraiths anyway.

I think in the meantime I will continue to play Nighthaunt mostly because I don't necessarily want to be forced to pay 240pts+ to bring 3 units of chainrasps just to meet batteline. Also Legion of Grief gets ham stringed as soon as you lose your general, and that can be frustrating to play around. 

 

[EnixLHQ]

11 hours ago, Landohammer said:

Question though: What specifically about Emerald Host made us more competitive? Is it the potential for a single drop?

Honestly, not sure.

I think DG brings a huge power boost to Hexwraiths. Even if you don't use them to keep your general up you can use their +1 attacks on a charge to fish for mortals. I think the battalion does more in practice for you than it looks on paper.

FS gives you a free +1 attacks buff each round. That's huge, especially when used on a horde unit. Doubly so when you're the one counter-attacking on an enemy unit that hasn't attacked yet. This buff is our defacto most damaging one, so getting a free one is pretty amazing.

And the Emerald Host nets a pretty significant debuff you can levy against the highest save enemy unit on the table, or the general, to just negate most defensive or artifact buffs.

But, there has been almost no tournament play of these battalions by people way better than me at tactical planning and executing, and not a ton of mix-and-match results being posted. So it's hard to say.

Personally, I'm using a list that includes DG and it's been my strongest list by a country mile.

[Thamalys]

14 hours ago, EnixLHQ said:

I'm using a list that includes DG and it's been my strongest list by a country mile.

I agree - when Realm Artefacts were a thing, you could do seriously nasty things with DG in other Death factions as well, not just Nighthaunt... those were the days!

[Landohammer]

15 hours ago, EnixLHQ said:

Honestly, not sure.

I think DG brings a huge power boost to Hexwraiths. Even if you don't use them to keep your general up you can use their +1 attacks on a charge to fish for mortals. I think the battalion does more in practice for you than it looks on paper.

FS gives you a free +1 attacks buff each round. That's huge, especially when used on a horde unit. Doubly so when you're the one counter-attacking on an enemy unit that hasn't attacked yet. This buff is our defacto most damaging one, so getting a free one is pretty amazing.

And the Emerald Host nets a pretty significant debuff you can levy against the highest save enemy unit on the table, or the general, to just negate most defensive or artifact buffs.

But, there has been almost no tournament play of these battalions by people way better than me at tactical planning and executing, and not a ton of mix-and-match results being posted. So it's hard to say.

Personally, I'm using a list that includes DG and it's been my strongest list by a country mile.

Same. I am sticking with Dolorous Guard as well. The obvious threat is having 10 Hexwraiths put out 30 scythe attacks (and 30 horse attacks!). 

I played another game vs Mawtribes last night, and despite losing, I was quite impressed at what a 5 man unit of Hexwraiths accomplished. Consider that 5 hexwraiths in DG can start to compete with 10 man units of Bladegeists despite being 50 points cheaper and 50% faster. 

Hexwraiths also synergize better with Ruler of the Spirit Hosts and Black Coach heals. 

[Malakithe]

On 10/8/2020 at 6:35 PM, EnixLHQ said:

Personally, I'm using a list that includes DG and it's been my strongest list by a country mile.

May we see said country mile leading list?

[EnixLHQ]

2 hours ago, Malakithe said:

May we see said country mile leading list?

It's Mortal Reign mk2, and it's in my guide. Link's in my sig or bio.

[Maxo Bug]

Am I the only one annoyed that we can't ally with Mortis Engines because of lore and "nEcRomAncERS aRE aLiVe" but we can ally with Mega Gargants? What the hell?

Makes no sense to me, it's just... just... Argh! 😣

[Malakithe]

10 hours ago, EnixLHQ said:

It's Mortal Reign mk2, and it's in my guide. Link's in my sig or bio.

Wow thats a good read

[El Antiguo Guardián]

On 10/7/2020 at 9:25 PM, Landohammer said:

Hey guys, here is a tough question. Now that Legion of Grief is unquestionably legal again, what is the most competitive way to field a majority Nighthaunt army? 

Here are key differences as I see them.

Nighthaunt

-Hexwraith, Grimghast Reaper, and Spirit battleline options. 

-Wave of Terror

-Spectral Summons

- Soul Cage

-Pendant of the Fell Wind

-Olynder doesn't come with any baggage

- Deepstrike without gravesite conditions

- Access to Vampire Lord as ally

Legion of Grief

-Can summon an entire unit back for 1 CP

- Dread Withering

-Vassal of the Craven King

-Access to Necromancers

-Access to Mortis Engine without the need for allies

 

All in all it looks pretty close. To me the big items are the differences in battleline, and the resurrection command ability. I guess  what it boils down to is if the loss of good battleline is worth the ability to summon units back. As the magic items and spells are relatively comparable, as is Wave of Terror and Necromancer (both provide situational double fights). 

Thoughts?

 

 

 

Legion of Grief, in my opinion.

Dreadblade with tombstones is nice, and the LoN summoning ability is amazing with ethereal models.

[Btimmy]

I also think LoG is probably the most competitive form of NH at the moment. Most of the recent LoN podiums come off the back of 40 block rasps that get to regen on gravesites. I know I've won pretty much every game I've played when I just set up my rasps and let the opponent try to crack the shell, only to find that I can bring back like 15+ rasps per turn. 

[Souleater]

On 10/11/2020 at 2:38 AM, Maxo Bug said:

Am I the only one annoyed that we can't ally with Mortis Engines because of lore and "nEcRomAncERS aRE aLiVe" but we can ally with Mega Gargants? What the hell?

Makes no sense to me, it's just... just... Argh! 😣

Indeed. It's a lovely kit. A great shame.

GW could have just said to paint him to look ethereal (he's the ghost of a Necromancer)

 

Or written the lore that the NH are dragging him around as some kind of slave-wizard as punishment for his temerity bossing other undead about!

Edited October 13, 2020 by Souleater

[Landohammer]

9 hours ago, Btimmy said:

I also think LoG is probably the most competitive form of NH at the moment. Most of the recent LoN podiums come off the back of 40 block rasps that get to regen on gravesites. I know I've won pretty much every game I've played when I just set up my rasps and let the opponent try to crack the shell, only to find that I can bring back like 15+ rasps per turn. 

You may be right. The list that podiumed had like 110 chain rasps. And between the FNP and rez, many armies just don't have the killing power to deal with that

While I admit this is an effective strategy for holding an objective, I can't say that it is a particularly fun way to play the game. It actually sounds quite tedious. 

Part of the appeal of Nighthaunt, at least to me, is playing a very mobile and tactical game of hit and run tactics. Maybe I just haven't lost enough games yet to get that desperate. (just give me more time lol) 

[Landohammer]

On 10/10/2020 at 9:38 PM, Maxo Bug said:

Am I the only one annoyed that we can't ally with Mortis Engines because of lore and "nEcRomAncERS aRE aLiVe" but we can ally with Mega Gargants? What the hell?

Makes no sense to me, it's just... just... Argh! 😣

As a new NH player this drives me insane. Its even in the dang start collecting box. I understand that maybe "Deathmage" faction needed more units but its perfectly fine to have multiple faction keywords on unit. Chaos does it all the time. 

[Neck-Romantic]

Now that we have seen how Reanimation Protocols work for 9th edition Necrons, I feel like that would work well for Nighthaunt alongside our current healing schtick.

40k and AoS have become rule testing grounds for one another, and sure enough the Rites of Reanimation is quite similar to GADeath invocations

Death, or just NH, slowly "reanimating" based on how many models were slain that turn, or back to original squad size, maybe only nearby our New Scenery Piece

Edited October 13, 2020 by Neck-Romantic

[EnixLHQ]

52 minutes ago, Neck-Romantic said:

Now that we have seen how Reanimation Protocols work for 9th edition Necrons, I feel like that would work well for Nighthaunt alongside our current healing schtick.

40k and AoS have become rule testing grounds for one another, and sure enough the Rites of Reanimation is quite similar to GADeath invocations

Death, or just NH, slowly "reanimating" based on how many models were slain that turn, or back to original squad size, maybe only nearby our New Scenery Piece

How does it work for Necrons?

[lare2]

3 hours ago, EnixLHQ said:

How does it work for Necrons?

 

[EnixLHQ]

2 minutes ago, lare2 said:

[Necron shenanigans]

So...

• Requires at least 1 model remaining in a unit after losing models (so no heroes)
• After taking damage in either the shooting phase or combat phase do the following:
  • Roll a D6 per Wound killed in the unit
  • On a 5+ gain a point
  • Return a number of models whose Wounds characteristic is equal or less than the number of points you gained
• These returned models do not count toward Battleshock

For example; if a unit of 3 Spirit Hosts loses 2 during the enemy's shooting phase, you then roll 6D6. If you get a 5+ three times, you can bring back one Spirit Host. If you somehow get all six dice on a 5+, you get both back.

Or: Your 20-man unit of Bladeghests gets flamed for 15 deaths in the combat phase, leaving 5 behind. Roll 15D6. For each 5+ bring one back.

Woah. I like this. A lot. Seems very powerful, but I wonder if it's really overpowered or not.

[lare2]

1 minute ago, EnixLHQ said:

Seems very powerful, but I wonder if it's really overpowered or not.

If you listen to Necron players, it's the end of the world! I like it though and agree that I think it'd work well for NH whilst differentiating it from LoN.

[EnixLHQ]

13 minutes ago, lare2 said:

If you listen to Necron players, it's the end of the world! I like it though and agree that I think it'd work well for NH whilst differentiating it from LoN.

I would just amend that this is a hero aura ability. Basically Deathless Minions becomes Eternally Bound or some other flavorful name, and gives out either the 6+ save-after-save and this reanimation ability, or just the reanimation.

That way, if our heroes get sniped or we move out of formation we lose our ability to reform from bodies on the field, it has a limited range, and only the 6+ save applies to magic damage. Given our weak model return compared to the damage our opponents can dish out, I think it might actually be more balanced than it looks on paper.

Edited October 13, 2020 by EnixLHQ

[SleeperAgent]

6 hours ago, EnixLHQ said:

So...

• Requires at least 1 model remaining in a unit after losing models (so no heroes)
• After taking damage in either the shooting phase or combat phase do the following:
  • Roll a D6 per Wound killed in the unit
  • On a 5+ gain a point
  • Return a number of models whose Wounds characteristic is equal or less than the number of points you gained
• These returned models do not count toward Battleshock

For example; if a unit of 3 Spirit Hosts loses 2 during the enemy's shooting phase, you then roll 6D6. If you get a 5+ three times, you can bring back one Spirit Host. If you somehow get all six dice on a 5+, you get both back.

Or: Your 20-man unit of Bladeghests gets flamed for 15 deaths in the combat phase, leaving 5 behind. Roll 15D6. For each 5+ bring one back.

Woah. I like this. A lot. Seems very powerful, but I wonder if it's really overpowered or not.

Sadly, as a player who loves Spirit Hosts, this would make the army even worse for me. I still think SH are overpriced at 120, considering a unit of 3 is rarely gonna control an objective. Not being able to get them back naturally would make them next to worthless. Our reanimation should just be more like LoN. Command point for a unit maybe, but each hero should be reanimating 1-5 models naturally. Like a bunch of black coaches.