AoS 2 - Blades of Khorne Discussion

[Impa]

5 minutes ago, Wulfrik the Wanderer said:

I think my favorite combo in the new battletome is Tyrants of Blood with the Blood Lords.

Assuming you get them all in combat, which you should as Khorne, the Halo of Blood artefact you have to take allows your Bloodthirster to go before either player picks a unit to pile in, so before priority.

Tyrants of Blood allows another Bloodthirster in the same battalion to activate immediately before either player picks again. Must be in range mind you, but fully able to be pulled off.

If this is done on your turn where you would have priority, you could have 3 bloodthirsters pile in and activate before the other player. 2 of your bloodthirsters on there turn when they have priority. 

I like to do a Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage along with a Bloodthirster of Unfettered Fury as I thinj they combo well together with their 8" effects!

This was devastating against a Skaven army as well as a Seraphon army I played on Saturday with 2000 pts.

Isn't it any model in the battalion? so you attack with first blood thirster that has the halo of blood, then the next thirster in the battalion and then the third. since all models are from the battalion "After a model in this battalion has fought in the combat phase, for the first time, you can pick another model from this battalion that has not yet fought that’s within 3” of range of an enemy model and fight before your opponent" i believe is the wording. i don't have the battletome. so i'm just going from what ive read. i made a tyrants list a page back. which i think is pretty bad ass just need to grab two more thirsters and im going to be playing it. using pilgrims or goretide for now until i get new models. 

[Wulfrik the Wanderer]

8 minutes ago, Impa said:

Isn't it any model in the battalion? so you attack with first blood thirster that has the halo of blood, then the next thirster in the battalion and then the third. 

I just reread the battletome and I do believe you are right! Perhaps you are correct with the Reapers of Vengeance being the better battalion for this due to their new command ability to allow them to pile in a second time. 

More list building is needed to be sure. But I also like the Blood Lords with bloodthirsters because their Command Ability allows you to heal a bit to get them out of brackets. Also the Command Trait to move another 4" is just amazing! BT of Insensate Rage moves 10" even when fully bracketed. Love to give the Blood Halo to another hero and then give him Argath, King of Blades to dive the backline and go hero hunting with a 2+/2+/-2/d6 and sonic boom 4 mortal wounds. I bring along a bloodstoker just for this purpose. 

Edited March 25, 2019 by Wulfrik the Wanderer

[Impa]

1 minute ago, Wulfrik the Wanderer said:

I just reread the battletome and I do believe you are right! Perhaps you are correct with the Reapers of Vengeance being the better battalion for this due to their new command ability to allow them to pile in a second time. 

More list building is needed to be sure. But I also like the bloodlords with bloodthirsters because their command ability allows you to heal a bit to get them out of brackets. Also the Command traot to move another 4" is just amazing! BT of Insensate Rage moves 10" even when fully bracketed. Love to give the Blood Halo to another hero and then give him Argath King of Blades to dive the backline and go hero hunting!

I was thinking this aswell for the reapers command ability, its just brutal. But if you go for the Halo you essentially auto attack first with all three every combat phase your 3" within enemy units. BUT if your attacking first anyways, it being your combat phase, the reapers ability leave none alive allows all thirsters with the command ability to attack twice for a possible 6 attacks (burning 3CP though). and i would give the Bloodthirster insensate rage the Ghyrstrike giving him +1hit+1wound to his axe, and if you can killing frenzy him with a priest hes now hitting on 2+ re rolling 1's (Locus) and wounding on a 1+!! so its almost auto damage (unless you roll all ones twice) and if you get those 6's, Thats some devastation. 5 attacks doing D6 damage with potential outrageous carnage ontop. and then you still have skarbrand or two other thirsters following up this crazy amount of attacks. Goodbye shiny Evocator unit. 

[Fredster001]

8 hours ago, Battlefury said:

A few month ago, there was someone complaining, that Khorne plays like "Little Khorny Chaos Wonderland", because our movement, positioning and buffs do always have to go through and be straight on point.

He was absolutely right, and not only that!
It seems, that it went much worse, as we now have the "...wholy within..." rules set to our army.

I am afraid, that we can not stay competetive without the Tyrants battalion and the Skullcrushers anymore.
That would bring us straight back to the point, the old book was after it got errata hammered and we had like 2 Battalions left, that could compete with the other factions.

The mortals have some wicked combos, yes 'wholly within' is a thing but it will be for everything as their books get updated. There are some truly horrendous combos in this book, I took a mix of bits last night and played a friends GT DoK list. 16-10 on VPs to Khorne, both armies butchered to pretty much heroes, except I had 8 blood tithe points when he called the game on Turn 4 going in to my turn!

Early indications are - Khorne fu is strong!

[AresX8]

10 minutes ago, Wulfrik the Wanderer said:

I just reread the battletome and I do believe you are right! Perhaps you are correct with the Reapers of Vengeance being the better battalion for this due to their new command ability to allow them to pile in a second time. 

More list building is needed to be sure. But I also like the Blood Lords with bloodthirsters because their Command Ability allows you to heal a bit to get them out of brackets. Also the Command Trait to move another 4" is just amazing! BT of Insensate Rage moves 10" even when fully bracketed. Love to give the Blood Halo to another hero and then give him Argath, King of Blades to dive the backline and go hero hunting with a 2+/2+/-2/d6 and sonic boom 4 mortal wounds. I bring along a bloodstoker just for this purpose. 

Bloodstoker only affects Mortals now, so keep that in mind.

[Impa]

24 minutes ago, Wulfrik the Wanderer said:

I just reread the battletome and I do believe you are right! Perhaps you are correct with the Reapers of Vengeance being the better battalion for this due to their new command ability to allow them to pile in a second time. 

More list building is needed to be sure. But I also like the Blood Lords with bloodthirsters because their Command Ability allows you to heal a bit to get them out of brackets. Also the Command Trait to move another 4" is just amazing! BT of Insensate Rage moves 10" even when fully bracketed. Love to give the Blood Halo to another hero and then give him Argath, King of Blades to dive the backline and go hero hunting with a 2+/2+/-2/d6 and sonic boom 4 mortal wounds. I bring along a bloodstoker just for this purpose. 

on a side note i'm going to use the reapers command trait with ghyrstrike in my gorepilgrims army with the Blood thirster of Insensate Rage. giving him double attacks from the command ability +1hit +1wound (artefact) re rolling 1's to hit (locus), +2 attacks from the bloodsecrator and wrathmongers.. Eeeeek

Oh and i forgot -2 Rend on this!! 

That's a potential 7 attacks doing D6 damage twice using the command ability. There's literally nothing that can compare to that in the new battletome. aside from skarbrand dishing out 16 MW (on a roll of 6) if hes stayed out of combat until round 2. and then buffed with +2 attacks from Bloodsecrator and Wrathmongers.  giving carnage potential 3x 16 MW (if 6's are rolled). 3x 8 mortal wound auto (on a 1+ roll if hes stayed out of combat) SMASH!

Edited March 25, 2019 by Impa

[Ravinsild]

24 minutes ago, Wulfrik the Wanderer said:

I just reread the battletome and I do believe you are right! Perhaps you are correct with the Reapers of Vengeance being the better battalion for this due to their new command ability to allow them to pile in a second time. 

More list building is needed to be sure. But I also like the Blood Lords with bloodthirsters because their Command Ability allows you to heal a bit to get them out of brackets. Also the Command Trait to move another 4" is just amazing! BT of Insensate Rage moves 10" even when fully bracketed. Love to give the Blood Halo to another hero and then give him Argath, King of Blades to dive the backline and go hero hunting with a 2+/2+/-2/d6 and sonic boom 4 mortal wounds. I bring along a bloodstoker just for this purpose. 

Bloodstoker only effects KHORNE MORTAL now.

[Ravinsild]

17 minutes ago, Impa said:

I was thinking this aswell for the reapers command ability, its just brutal. But if you go for the Halo you essentially auto attack first with all three every combat phase your 3" within enemy units. BUT if your attacking first anyways, it being your combat phase, the reapers ability leave none alive allows all thirsters with the command ability to attack twice for a possible 6 attacks (burning 3CP though). and i would give the Bloodthirster insensate rage the Ghyrstrike giving him +1hit+1wound to his axe, and if you can killing frenzy him with a priest hes now hitting on 2+ re rolling 1's (Locus) and wounding on a 1+!! so its almost auto damage (unless you roll all ones twice) and if you get those 6's, Thats some devastation. 5 attacks doing D6 damage with potential outrageous carnage ontop. and then you still have skarbrand or two other thirsters following up this crazy amount of attacks. Goodbye shiny Evocator unit. 

You automatically fail any natural roll 1 of one. Ghyrstrike is less good on him because he already wounds on a +2. Another artifact that grants +1 to hit would be better. 

[Impa]

2 minutes ago, Ravinsild said:

Bloodstoker only effects KHORNE MORTAL now.

which is a shame, but most effective re rolling all wounds now. making blood warriors much better on that 4+ wound roll. 

[Impa]

2 minutes ago, Ravinsild said:

You automatically fail any natural roll 1 of one. Ghyrstrike is less good on him because he already wounds on a +2. Another artifact that grants +1 to hit would be better. 

why do you automatically fail any natural roll of 1 on a wound? if your wounding on 1+ its auto hit, no? and your still getting the +1 from ghyrstrike to hit since hes naturally 4+ hit making him 3+ then you killing frenzy him making him 2+

[Ravinsild]

5 minutes ago, Impa said:

why do you automatically fail any natural roll of 1 on a wound? if your wounding on 1+ its auto hit, no? and your still getting the +1 from ghyrstrike to hit since hes naturally 4+ hit making him 3+ then you killing frenzy him making him 2+

Because the Core Rules basically say any natural roll of 1 is an automatic failure and any natural roll of 6 is an automatic success. Hence why if there are any other artifacts that add +1 to hit, and perhaps have another effect, it would be better because the +1 to wound effect is basically wasted because 2+ is the best you can get. 

Edit: Page 7 of the Core Rules, under "Making Attacks": Hit Roll: "A hit roll of 1 before modifications always fails to hit the target, and a hit roll of 6 before modifications always hits the target." Wound rolls: "A wound roll of 1 before modifications always fails , and a hit roll of 6 before modifications is always successful."

Edited March 25, 2019 by Ravinsild

[Impa]

7 minutes ago, Ravinsild said:

Because the Core Rules basically say any natural roll of 1 is an automatic failure and any natural roll of 6 is an automatic success. 

hmm thats a shame. well you still have a potential 7 dice rolling to wound. so anything BUT a 1 is D6 wounds with -2 rend.. seems overkill either way. which is funny because on skarbrands warscroll it states "if the roll is equal to or greater then the carnage value on the table above" this would mean if he was at his most dangerous state at 1 hitpoint or out of combat for a phase and being considered to have one hitpoint. on his chart it says "Carnage 1+" so if you roll a natural 1 his carnage doesnt go off? Even though it states "equal to or greater than" the roll... 

Edited March 25, 2019 by Impa

[Ravinsild]

3 minutes ago, Impa said:

hmm thats a shame. well you still have a potential 7 dice rolling to wound. so anything BUT a 1 is D6 wounds with -2 rend.. seems overkill either way. which is funny because on skarbrands warscroll it states "if the roll is equal to or greater then the carnage value on the table above" this would mean if he was at his most dangerous state at 1 hitpoint or out of combat for a phase and being considered to have one hitpoint. on his chart it says "Carnage 1+" so if you roll a natural 1 his carnage doesnt go off? Even though it states "equal to or greater than" the roll... 

No, because it specifically states Carnage does not use the attack sequence, so you ignore the "making attacks" part of the rules on Page 7 and simply execute the ability as it states on the Warscroll. 

To quote it exactly, "DO NOT use the attack sequence (Core Rules page 7) for an attack made with Carnage. Instead, roll a dice. The target unit suffers 8 mortal wounds if the roll is equal to or greater than the Carnage value shown on the damage table above. If the roll is 6, the target suffers 16 mortal wounds instead."

Edited March 25, 2019 by Ravinsild

[Impa]

4 minutes ago, Ravinsild said:

No, because it specifically states Carnage does not use the attack sequence, so you ignore the "making attacks" part of the rules on Page 7 and simply execute the ability as it states on the Warscroll. 

well ok, gotcha thanks. so whats a better artefact giving +1 to hit to a Bloodthirster?

Edited March 25, 2019 by Impa

[Ravinsild]

3 minutes ago, Impa said:

well ok, gotcha thanks. so whats a better artefact giving +1 to hit to a Bloodthirster?

I'm not sure. I don't have the Malign Sorcery book in front of me at the moment to look through the artifacts, but sadly there's nothing for +1 to hit within the BoK book itself atm. 

[kahadin]

38 minutes ago, Fredster001 said:

The mortals have some wicked combos, yes 'wholly within' is a thing but it will be for everything as their books get updated. There are some truly horrendous combos in this book, I took a mix of bits last night and played a friends GT DoK list. 16-10 on VPs to Khorne, both armies butchered to pretty much heroes, except I had 8 blood tithe points when he called the game on Turn 4 going in to my turn!

Early indications are - Khorne fu is strong!

what was your list? Also how did your friend do in his gt with his?

[Battlefury]

I'd like to say something, but please don't judge me too harsh on that.

I think it is absolutely nice, that all the Ladies and Gentlemen think about possible combos and lists, that can win games. Tha's absolutely great, and I am grateful for all of your tips and tricks!

But until now, and I am afraid that it will not change, the list building evolves into the same meta, as the old book did.
The only competetive combos and lists used:

Gore Pilgrims
Stampede(s)
Council of Blood

I absolutely understand, that it needs more time. But right now I'd like to push it into another direction.

Does anyone have ideas, what lists could be played, that would be different to the old meta?

Tyrants and Gore Pilgrims is ok, but didn't the book have to give us more abilities than the "old" ones? Yeah ok, thos old combos would be better now, but still just those restricted choices.

Don't want to be the party pooper, really. But I just can't find different approaches until now, no matter how long I  think about it.

[AresX8]

1 minute ago, Battlefury said:

I'd like to say something, but please don't judge me too harsh on that.

I think it is absolutely nice, that all the Ladies and Gentlemen think about possible combos and lists, that can win games. Tha's absolutely great, and I am grateful for all of your tips and tricks!

But until now, and I am afraid that it will not change, the list building evolves into the same meta, as the old book did.
The only competetive combos and lists used:

Gore Pilgrims
Stampede(s)
Council of Blood

I absolutely understand, that it needs more time. But right now I'd like to push it into another direction.

Does anyone have ideas, what lists could be played, that would be different to the old meta?

Tyrants and Gore Pilgrims is ok, but didn't the book have to give us more abilities than the "old" ones? Yeah ok, thos old combos would be better now, but still just those restricted choices.

Don't want to be the party pooper, really. But I just can't find different approaches until now, no matter how long I  think about it.

The only answer to this is do the following:

- Forget about all of the tactics and interactions the previous book had. They are gone.
- Write lists to try things out and most importantly, PLAY. You can theoryhammer all you want but none of it matters without actual results that only playing can provide. Sitting on the sidelines asking what the "best things are" when the book is only 3 days old contributes nothing to the overall discussion as the rest of us are figuring things out.

I know this is blunt but it has to be said. It's starting to get pretty obvious for those that have played with the new book, and those who have not.

[Impa]

9 minutes ago, Battlefury said:

I'd like to say something, but please don't judge me too harsh on that.

I think it is absolutely nice, that all the Ladies and Gentlemen think about possible combos and lists, that can win games. Tha's absolutely great, and I am grateful for all of your tips and tricks!

But until now, and I am afraid that it will not change, the list building evolves into the same meta, as the old book did.
The only competetive combos and lists used:

Gore Pilgrims
Stampede(s)
Council of Blood

I absolutely understand, that it needs more time. But right now I'd like to push it into another direction.

Does anyone have ideas, what lists could be played, that would be different to the old meta?

Tyrants and Gore Pilgrims is ok, but didn't the book have to give us more abilities than the "old" ones? Yeah ok, thos old combos would be better now, but still just those restricted choices.

Don't want to be the party pooper, really. But I just can't find different approaches until now, no matter how long I  think about it.

I agree. I don’t see anything “new” at all. Other than the forced terrain piece to be able to “do” what gorepilgrims did. And the judgements that are kind of cool. But come with a price tag forcing you to drop a priest or something of the like. I’ve been seeing some talks of goretide. But I feel like it’ll be more of the same old battalions used in the previous book. But again I think collectively people are trying to be positive. But inevitably fall back to the same conclusion that this tome has mostly side steps.  But we just need to get out there and play! 

Edited March 25, 2019 by Impa

[Ravinsild]

3 minutes ago, AresX8 said:

The only answer to this is do the following:

- Forget about all of the tactics and interactions the previous book had. They are gone.
- Write lists to try things out and most importantly, PLAY. You can theoryhammer all you want but none of it matters without actual results that only playing can provide. Sitting on the sidelines asking what the "best things are" when the book is only 3 days old contributes nothing to the overall discussion as the rest of us are figuring things out.

I know this is blunt but it has to be said. It's starting to get pretty obvious for those that have played with the new book, and those who have not.

I'm determined to make my Skulltake list work. Just because it didn't work my first game doesn't mean it can't work ever. I just staggered my things in wrong and didn't pop off my wombo combo and get everything in place. I was more re-learning what, and when everyone does to begin with. 

However, if Skullreapers really can't cut it as a hammer (I think they can), then I've got like 5 back ups lists that are more or less the same list with different iterations. 

[Warbossironteef]

I mean I think there are a lot of new things you can do with the Battalions that may not seem OP on paper but turn out to be better in practice. Take the Wrathmongers Battalion. That seems really interesting. I actually think Mongers are really nicely priced. I'm planning on collecting 10 more and trying two groups of 10 or one big group. They have 2 inch range as well which is great for fighting in ranks, which the Reapers have a harder time doing.

Edited March 25, 2019 by Warbossironteef

[Grimrock]

Definitely think the wrathmonger battalion has chops, and it highlights what I think is really interesting about the book. In the last edition we usually wrote to try to get an alpha strike just like every other army. Buff bloodletters to the nines, run and charge, and wipe out everything they touch. However, since our speed is so limited now I think we might have to try something that's super weird for AOS: build a list that intentionally wants to receive an alpha strike and then punishes the opponent for it. It manages our limited ranges because everyone just bricks up and waits for the opponent to make a move, and deals with speed issues because the opponent has to come to us as long as we can control some objectives early. We have cheap but effective chaff to bubble wrap everything, and more than enough damage after that. 

[Ravinsild]

2 minutes ago, Grimrock said:

Definitely think the wrathmonger battalion has chops, and it highlights what I think is really interesting about the book. In the last edition we usually wrote to try to get an alpha strike just like every other army. Buff bloodletters to the nines, run and charge, and wipe out everything they touch. However, since our speed is so limited now I think we might have to try something that's super weird for AOS: build a list that intentionally wants to receive an alpha strike and then punishes the opponent for it. It manages our limited ranges because everyone just bricks up and waits for the opponent to make a move, and deals with speed issues because the opponent has to come to us as long as we can control some objectives early. We have cheap but effective chaff to bubble wrap everything, and more than enough damage after that. 

That's what I'm going for in my secondary lists, if I can't get Skullfiend Tribe + Skulltake to work. Basically Gorefist Blood Warriors as a shield/anvil to take a charge, punch back and die, then for my 3 hammers to strike back. Although I have no idea if an Exalted Deathbringer can be considered a hammer 🤔

[Luke1705]

Tyrants of blood is real good.  Only 3 games in but undefeated so far.  I'm going to keep singing the praises of reapers of vengeance over bloodlords until the day I die.  Take the blood hungerer relic and on a 4+ you get that sweet sweet attack first bonus you wanted from bloodlords anyway.

Personally I am a little less sold on the always fight first thing because you can get around that on your turn with good use of the unfettered fury or exalted thirster 6" pile in, and on their turn you only ever have to suffer one unit anyhow.  As a result, I may use the one free CP per turn relic on the exalted thirster since he almost always uses his command ability.

Let me explain the combo.

1) You're too far away to reliably charge, or you're stuck in a combat you don't want to be, or there is a unit like loonsmasha fanatics that always fights first, and you're a scrub who took reapers of vengeance instead of bloodlords.

1a) Cast +1 to hit from your slaughterpriest for extra silliness

2) You decide you might as well fall back, advance, stand on your head, and do anything that would normally forbid a charge move, ending your move more than 3" away but less than 6" away from the fanatics (or whatever other unit of your choosing that thinks its sneaky.  My personal favorite fantasy is that stupid gristlegore general)

3) Don't charge (you can't for like 3 reasons, remember?)

4) At the start of the combat phase, courteously allow your opponent to activate any units he has that are in combat that can attack first (like the fanatics).  This is an unecessary step, but it's good to remember that this is a gentleman's game and you're about to do ungodly things to whatever that unit is, so give it some dignity on its way out

4a) Curse yourself if you forgot not to charge his fanatics with some other unit

5) Otherwise, then use your rejoice in exalted slaughter command ability on the big guy (or rejoice in the normal slaughter command ability on the unfettered fury thirster)

6) Whenever you feel like it in the combat phase, pile in and fight.  You can flexibly go last since you're obviously not going to get attacked from a unit farther than 3" away from you, or you can go first and start the domino there if you need/want to.

6a) Do the thing that bloodlords can't do and fight a second time, piling in a futher 6". (Let me tell you being able to hit something that you're 8" away from before you start your pile is pretty unexpected sometimes.  Let alone if you do it twice and hit something like 16" away after *not* charging.)

6b) Do this with as many other bloodthirsters as you have command points (so usually 2/4/6/8 total activations unless you just don't need to waste the CP up front (but usually you want to ) )

7) Allow your opponent to activate his first unit

 

 

TLDR: Tyrants of blood is amazing.  IMO better than Bloodlords.

 

Fall back and "charge" is borderline OP when 3-4 thirsters can all do it for 1 CP.  Take an exalted thirster or an unfettered fury thirster (or both) in every list.  Full stop.

[Darksteve]

28 minutes ago, Battlefury said:

I'd like to say something, but please don't judge me too harsh on that.

I think it is absolutely nice, that all the Ladies and Gentlemen think about possible combos and lists, that can win games. Tha's absolutely great, and I am grateful for all of your tips and tricks!

But until now, and I am afraid that it will not change, the list building evolves into the same meta, as the old book did.
The only competetive combos and lists used:

Gore Pilgrims
Stampede(s)
Council of Blood

I absolutely understand, that it needs more time. But right now I'd like to push it into another direction.

Does anyone have ideas, what lists could be played, that would be different to the old meta?

Tyrants and Gore Pilgrims is ok, but didn't the book have to give us more abilities than the "old" ones? Yeah ok, thos old combos would be better now, but still just those restricted choices.

Don't want to be the party pooper, really. But I just can't find different approaches until now, no matter how long I  think about it.

Waiting for the FAQ to drop, but if GW intendes wrathmongers to buff skullcannon shots (which I think is plausible if not probable) then there is definately a case to be made with the recieve the charge and shoot, shoot, shoot lists. Having played it once already it was an incredibly different and fun way to play the army.