AoS 2 - Blades of Khorne Discussion

[phizzco]

7 hours ago, NemoVonUtopia said:

I just played in a small local tournament using Skalok (the new forge world dragon) and I am very pleased how it went even though I didn't win a single game which I expected since i figured i couldn't play to objectives very well. My list idea was to buff and support Skalok while having an independent battle line so my list was:

Skalok

2 slaughterpriests with killing frenzy and resangunation 

Bloodstoker

5 Wrathmongers 

3x5 Blood warriors.

Game 1 was battle of the pass vs Daughters of Khaine. The first few turns we approached each other cautiously to but the Daughter's superior mobility ment that they got the middle objectives first and got the first charges. My blood warriors all died but they protected Skalok and the wrathmongers who were able to decimate the enemy's army in later turns. Skalock only took 2 wounds because she killed any unit she attacked. 

Game 2 vs ironjaws went the same way, a turn 1 charge killed all of my screening blood warriors but I then tabled my opponent with Skalok killing a mega war boss on mawcrusha and one on foot, 5 brutes, and around 30 'ard boys. But due to low model count my opponent won off points.

Game 3 vs Nurgle I decided to be stupid and charge Skalok into my opponent's army first instead of fighting behind blood warriors and wrathmongers. Needless to say, she died in 3 combat rounds to 10 blightkings in a plague cist and 10 chaos warriors supported by a harbinger of decay. 

I learned that Skalok didnt need much buffing support and I really needed more bodies. Next time I'll try a bloodsecrator and as many bloodreavers as possible. 

 

So you're thinking Skalok, a blood secrator, and like... 30 blood reavers and 20 blood warriors? or just 70 blood reavers?

[Dan.Ford]

7 hours ago, Luke1705 said:

Do you have a rules source for why the Flowstone Blade works to increase all of the wound rolls and not just the wound roll for the attack that rolled a 6 or more?

 

Yes, that is Page 231 and 232 of the Core rule book Attacking.

its very simple for this item as it state 'that attack' NOT 'that Hit'

 

First you pick a weapon ( not all , just one to be that Flowstone blade ).

You then attack with that weapon but 'Each time' you roll a hit roll of a 6+ for 'this weapon', add 1 to the wound roll for 'that attack'.

How many +1 wound you get is determined by the number of hits you roll that are 6+ from that attack. The number of hit dice you roll is determined by the model Attack characteristic.

 

This item is Not the specific individual Hit roll but 'that attack' for that weapon the player picked at the start . And certainly not the 'attacks' of the model, some models have 2-3 weapon attack.

So this item makes it very clearly written 'that attack' not 'that hit'

[Retro]

3 hours ago, Dan.Ford said:

 

Yes, that is Page 231 and 232 of the Core rule book Attacking.

its very simple for this item as it state 'that attack' NOT 'that Hit'

 

First you pick a weapon ( not all , just one to be that Flowstone blade ).

You then attack with that weapon but 'Each time' you roll a hit roll of a 6+ for 'this weapon', add 1 to the wound roll for 'that attack'.

How many +1 wound you get is determined by the number of hits you roll that are 6+ from that attack. The number of hit dice you roll is determined by the model Attack characteristic.

 

This item is Not the specific individual Hit roll but 'that attack' for that weapon the player picked at the start . And certainly not the 'attacks' of the model, some models have 2-3 weapon attack.

So this item makes it very clearly written 'that attack' not 'that hit'

By this logic the cursed weapons of the grave guard would get double damage for each wound roll of 6+

"If the wound roll for an attack made with a Wight blade or great Wight blade is 6+, double the damage characteristic of that attack"

[Dan.Ford]

Lets not go down that road , please. Thank you

[Luke1705]

33 minutes ago, Dan.Ford said:

Lets not go down that road , please. Thank you

I’m not sure I see the distinction. Clearly you wouldn’t get to double the damage of all the grave guard in the unit time after time, but if a single grave guard model made multiple attacks, it should double the damage of all of that model’s attacks if we’re being consistent, correct? Or am I missing something?

Also Dan I know you’ve played a lot of Khorne at a fair few big events. Have you been to large events that have ruled that the flowstone item works this way? And as a secondary question, have you found this to be a game-breaking mechanic? Being able to pump out 20 or 30 mortals to every unit in an 8” aoe just seems like there is very little counterplay outside of doing your best not to clump up units

[Dan.Ford]

It's has been used at large events but not by me.

Game breaking . God no, if you fail the charge with any bloodthirster hes dead meat with their 4 up save, one unit with shooting attacks will take the Bloodthirster ( with axe boy ) down to D3 mortals or 2 spells(2d3 damage).

Plus Crimson crown which generates extra attacks alis subject to mods BUT only produce extra attack on the new specific number .

From the rules point just read from the core rule book on attacking and how the Flowstone blade is written it's clear .

[Retro]

3 hours ago, Dan.Ford said:

Lets not go down that road , please. Thank you

In that case I guess we will just have to agree to disagree

[Luke1705]

For the record, I am also not convinced that the flowstone blade works like that. After more reading of the core rules on page 232, specifically the “making attacks” box,  I think the +1 to wound only applies to the attack, or hit, that had a result of 6+, not to all of them, and thus you are unable to ever get more than +1 to wound out of the item. I think this because the rules refer to rolling through the attack sequence for each individual dice, not for many at once. It says you may roll many at once to save time, but this does not mean that the outcome of one roll can affect another roll. Quite the opposite, in fact

[Dan.Ford]

New topic

So how about bloodthirster (big axe boy) with Devastating blow which does have an faq (6+  ). ( also he re roll 1's to hit on the charge)

Magical item : you now the one with the Plus 1 to hits and wounds.

Gore pilgrim with 2 or 3 priests Killing frenzy.

And a Crimson Crown near by on second character like another Bloodthirster 

4 attack base , +1 secator& maybe 1 from crown . Re rolling 1's on the charge.

Think about it , now that is a mortal wound payload. 

[Luke1705]

4 hours ago, Dan.Ford said:

New topic

So how about bloodthirster (big axe boy) with Devastating blow which does have an faq (6+  ). ( also he re roll 1's to hit on the charge)

Magical item : you now the one with the Plus 1 to hits and wounds.

Gore pilgrim with 2 or 3 priests Killing frenzy.

And a Crimson Crown near by on second character like another Bloodthirster 

4 attack base , +1 secator& maybe 1 from crown . Re rolling 1's on the charge.

Think about it , now that is a mortal wound payload. 

I think I like Slaughterborn or deathdealer better for that guy. Slaughterborn lets you fish for more “6”, whatever actual number you’re looking for. Deathdealer is just a flat bump. Devastating blow is of course nice, but with rend -2 already they’re already saving on 5 or 6. Helps out against the grims certainly but with only 6ish attacks you’re getting 1 or 2 outrageous carnage rolls on average. I’ll have to do the math, but my suspicion is that it’s better only against ethereal units

[Kharneth]

On 11/17/2018 at 10:46 AM, Retro said:

As awesome as that would be, mark of the destroyer is limited to khorne bloodbound heroes.

The errata reworded the artefacts of power:

Page 81 – Artefacts of Power
Replace the rules introduction for artefacts of power
with the following:
‘If a Khorne army includes any Heroes, one may bear
one artefact of power from one of the following tables:
Murderous Artefacts, Banners of Khorne, Trophies of
War, Daemonic Weapons, or Daemonic Adornments.’

This, to me, reads that Khorne heroes can take any option, regardless of being a demon or being a mortal. 

Also, does the Gorecleaver's ability to inflict mortal wounds on a 6 get increased with the Juggerlord's +1 to wound ability? The Gorecleaver does not say "6 or more" like the Juggerlord's axe, it simply says "on a 6." 

[Easytyger]

11 hours ago, Dan.Ford said:

New topic

So how about bloodthirster (big axe boy) with Devastating blow which does have an faq (6+  ). ( also he re roll 1's to hit on the charge)

Magical item : you now the one with the Plus 1 to hits and wounds.

Gore pilgrim with 2 or 3 priests Killing frenzy.

And a Crimson Crown near by on second character like another Bloodthirster 

4 attack base , +1 secator& maybe 1 from crown . Re rolling 1's on the charge.

Think about it , now that is a mortal wound payload. 

Ah effectively a Sword of Judgement for the Bigboy. This is quite nice!

EDIT:  Rereading Devastating Blow it seems when you would roll a 6+ and deal the mortal wounds you would miss out on triggering Outrageous Carnage on the wound rolls of 6+.

EDIT 2: lol reread again and missed that it’s on Wound rolls so never mind my first edit 

Edited November 19, 2018 by Easytyger

[andysonic1]

12 hours ago, Kharneth said:

The errata reworded the artefacts of power:

Page 81 – Artefacts of Power
Replace the rules introduction for artefacts of power
with the following:
‘If a Khorne army includes any Heroes, one may bear
one artefact of power from one of the following tables:
Murderous Artefacts, Banners of Khorne, Trophies of
War, Daemonic Weapons, or Daemonic Adornments.’

This, to me, reads that Khorne heroes can take any option, regardless of being a demon or being a mortal. 

This does not supersede the individual boxes where they display the items that all begin with "Any KHORNE (insert keyword here) HERO". You are still restricted by the MORTAL and DAEMON keywords. The errata is simply to try and make things a little more streamlined in the book itself.

[Retro]

1 hour ago, andysonic1 said:

This does not supersede the individual boxes where they display the items that all begin with "Any KHORNE (insert keyword here) HERO". You are still restricted by the MORTAL and DAEMON keywords. The errata is simply to try and make things a little more streamlined in the book itself.

Yeah, that errata kicked up a bit of a dust storm. 

I feel like the daemon artifacts are a bit tamer than the mortal ones because of the potential to put them on bloodthirsters. Mark of the destroyer would be a bit OP on a bloodthirster.

[Kharneth]

9 minutes ago, Retro said:

Yeah, that errata kicked up a bit of a dust storm. 

I feel like the daemon artifacts are a bit tamer than the mortal ones because of the potential to put them on bloodthirsters. Mark of the destroyer would be a bit OP on a bloodthirster.

That's disappointing to hear, but good to know. I honestly can't see Mark of the Destroyer being OP on anything seeing as it's instant death if you roll poorly or fight something very tough, but I've never actually used it. 

So, unrelated, I got the chance to play a couple games this weekend against my friend and I got shot up by crossbowmen and was hoping for some advice. We had 1,000 points and he had 30 free guild crossbowmen hitting on 3+, wounding on 2+ and with rend on 4+ that killed everything. I was using blood warriors and skullreapers, but nothing made it to the swordsmen he had guarding his line. I probably won't face this list again, but in regards to heavy shooting what defense do we have? I don't think my skullcrushers would've faired better. I have a bloodthirster and ~50 bloodletters, but they're on old bases and I was hoping to use the new units. 

[Kharneth]

9 hours ago, Easytyger said:

Ah effectively a Sword of Judgement for the Bigboy. This is quite nice!

EDIT:  Rereading Devastating Blow it seems when you would roll a 6+ and deal the mortal wounds you would miss out on triggering Outrageous Carnage on the wound rolls of 6+.

EDIT 2: lol reread again and missed that it’s on Wound rolls so never mind my first edit 

I'm confused, both Devastating Blow and Outrageous Carnage are wound rolls, though I'm not sure where any changes may be to Devastating Blow.

[Retro]

10 minutes ago, Kharneth said:

That's disappointing to hear, but good to know. I honestly can't see Mark of the Destroyer being OP on anything seeing as it's instant death if you roll poorly or fight something very tough, but I've never actually used it. 

So, unrelated, I got the chance to play a couple games this weekend against my friend and I got shot up by crossbowmen and was hoping for some advice. We had 1,000 points and he had 30 free guild crossbowmen hitting on 3+, wounding on 2+ and with rend on 4+ that killed everything. I was using blood warriors and skullreapers, but nothing made it to the swordsmen he had guarding his line. I probably won't face this list again, but in regards to heavy shooting what defense do we have? I don't think my skullcrushers would've faired better. I have a bloodthirster and ~50 bloodletters, but they're on old bases and I was hoping to use the new units. 

Yeah there is definitely risk and reward, Ive been in situations where I didn't want to charge my lord of khorne because he only had access to enemy heroes and probably wouldn't kill him in 1 turn.

Personally I think bloodreavers are a good screen against shooty enemies, they cost less points per wound and rend barely effects them.

Skullcrushers might fair better simply because they move faster.

That said, the best I thing is just getting there quicker, which is normally:

Wrath or khorne CA on 30 bloodletters, then Bloodstoker whip on the same 30 bloodletters

Maxed murderhost, which I doubt you'd fit into a 1000pt match anyway 

[phizzco]

1 hour ago, Kharneth said:

That's disappointing to hear, but good to know. I honestly can't see Mark of the Destroyer being OP on anything seeing as it's instant death if you roll poorly or fight something very tough, but I've never actually used it. 

So, unrelated, I got the chance to play a couple games this weekend against my friend and I got shot up by crossbowmen and was hoping for some advice. We had 1,000 points and he had 30 free guild crossbowmen hitting on 3+, wounding on 2+ and with rend on 4+ that killed everything. I was using blood warriors and skullreapers, but nothing made it to the swordsmen he had guarding his line. I probably won't face this list again, but in regards to heavy shooting what defense do we have? I don't think my skullcrushers would've faired better. I have a bloodthirster and ~50 bloodletters, but they're on old bases and I was hoping to use the new units. 

that mean you can use mark on skalok? Lulz

[Kharneth]

1 hour ago, Retro said:

Yeah there is definitely risk and reward, Ive been in situations where I didn't want to charge my lord of khorne because he only had access to enemy heroes and probably wouldn't kill him in 1 turn.

Personally I think bloodreavers are a good screen against shooty enemies, they cost less points per wound and rend barely effects them.

Skullcrushers might fair better simply because they move faster.

That said, the best I thing is just getting there quicker, which is normally:

Wrath or khorne CA on 30 bloodletters, then Bloodstoker whip on the same 30 bloodletters

Maxed murderhost, which I doubt you'd fit into a 1000pt match anyway 

Yeah, I had the same thoughts. I only have 10 bloodreavers right now. How would screening help? He'd just shoot the units behind them, wouldn't he? I was thinking if I had enough bloodreavers I could survive the shots through numbers, but I'd rather not buy a horde of bloodreavers. I have 9 skullcrushers and a juggerlord, but even then I think the speed isn't enough because I wouldn't get a turn 1 charge and they take damage as fast as blood warriors but have less wounds per point. 

320 - WoK Bloodthirster

140 - Lord of Khorne on Juggernaut

80 - Bloodstoker

320 - 30 Bloodletters - FC, Gore-Drenched Icon

140 - 3 Skullcrushers - Bloodglaives, FC

1000 points.  I think Violent Urgency on the Juggerlord and either Talisman of Burning Blood also or Crimson Crown on the Bloodthirster. 

I'm not too confident in the demon's ability to fly across the board, though. If the Bloodthirster can't run and charge, how does he charge an enemy that hasn't moved forward yet? If he moves 10" he'll be out of range for shooting and if he runs he won't be able to charge.  The bloodletters will move 10-15" with an average of 11" charge. Does the +3" from the Bloodstoker increase the Bloodletter's threat range for charging? 

 

Anyone have any experience with Slaughterborn combo'ed with the WoK Thirster and Bloodletter bomb? 

Edited November 19, 2018 by Kharneth

[Retro]

47 minutes ago, Kharneth said:

Yeah, I had the same thoughts. I only have 10 bloodreavers right now. How would screening help? He'd just shoot the units behind them, wouldn't he? I was thinking if I had enough bloodreavers I could survive the shots through numbers, but I'd rather not buy a horde of bloodreavers. I have 9 skullcrushers and a juggerlord, but even then I think the speed isn't enough because I wouldn't get a turn 1 charge and they take damage as fast as blood warriors but have less wounds per point. 

320 - WoK Bloodthirster

140 - Lord of Khorne on Juggernaut

80 - Bloodstoker

320 - 30 Bloodletters - FC, Gore-Drenched Icon

140 - 3 Skullcrushers - Bloodglaives, FC

1000 points.  I think Violent Urgency on the Juggerlord and either Talisman of Burning Blood also or Crimson Crown on the Bloodthirster. 

I'm not too confident in the demon's ability to fly across the board, though. If the Bloodthirster can't run and charge, how does he charge an enemy that hasn't moved forward yet? If he moves 10" he'll be out of range for shooting and if he runs he won't be able to charge.  The bloodletters will move 10-15" with an average of 11" charge. Does the +3" from the Bloodstoker increase the Bloodletter's threat range for charging? 

Don't skullcrushers have a (slightly) lower cost per wound? 140 for 15 vs 100 for 10.

If you drop the hugger lord for 10 reavers you'll have enough points left for 1 extra command point. Then you can run/charge the bloodletters and wrath of Horne at the same time.

The whip adds 3" to both the run and the charge so whoever you whip will get an extra 6" if they can run and charge in the same turn.

Another option could be dropping the bloodletters and  just whipping the bloodthirster. With 10" move, command ability, and whip his minimum threat range will be 21" (if you roll all 1s for run and charge - very unlikely) and if you have an extra co left you can use it to guarantee a 6" run or reroll charge depending on which one you whiff. He went Ben able to shoot that turn but he'll hit their lines pretty damn hard - especially if you give him death dealer and immense power (or some other combo to make him more killy)

you could replace the bloodletters with mortals as you see fit and they would be forced to dump everything into the bloodthirster in that first turn or he will make them hurt. Might give you enough time to plod up the field with the rest of your mortals.

[Praecautus]

17 hours ago, Kharneth said:

 

Also, does the Gorecleaver's ability to inflict mortal wounds on a 6 get increased with the Juggerlord's +1 to wound ability? The Gorecleaver does not say "6 or more" like the Juggerlord's axe, it simply says "on a 6." 

Sadly gorecleaver would still be a 6. So it no longer synergises as well with his 6+ for max damage. 👎

If I run him again I am tempted to use eg jadewound thorn which is MW on a 6+ in addition to normal damage. So poteentially 3 damage + 1 MW

[Zamik]

3 hours ago, Kharneth said:

So, unrelated, I got the chance to play a couple games this weekend against my friend and I got shot up by crossbowmen and was hoping for some advice. We had 1,000 points and he had 30 free guild crossbowmen hitting on 3+, wounding on 2+ and with rend on 4+ that killed everything. I was using blood warriors and skullreapers, but nothing made it to the swordsmen he had guarding his line. I probably won't face this list again, but in regards to heavy shooting what defense do we have? I don't think my skullcrushers would've faired better. I have a bloodthirster and ~50 bloodletters, but they're on old bases and I was hoping to use the new units. 

My friend tore me up with Freeguild Handgunners recently. I'm thinking next time I'm going to attempt to maneuver a Slaughterpriest into position and have him pray Blood Bind on them to make the gunners run toward the nearest unit. I'm hoping that I can pull them out of their General's protective bubble, and also keep the piper from letting them shoot me in the Charge phase. That's what I've got so far.

[Praecautus]

One thing to consider is to feed them chaff. Thy can only shoot the nearest unit so feed them reaver and other cheap units one after another and let the rest of the army murder his. Use the tithe to summon reinforcements. I once used 4 lots of 10 reavers to hold up 2 bastiladons for 3 turns. Having them only able to kill 70 points of reavers a turn was infuriating, especially as the tithe brought in letters to also feed it 👍

Edited November 19, 2018 by Praecautus

[Kharneth]

Retro,

S*** for some reason I thought skullcrushers had 3 wounds each, so they are tougher but they don't have quite as many attacks. 

I see, so it's that extra command point that really makes it work? Because if I roll a 1 or 2 to run I will be out of the 12" charge threat range, assuming there's an enemy unit set up on the frontline of the enemy deployment zone. 

I'm concerned about charging the Bloodthirster alone. The way I see it, I can get a 1st turn charge with one of them and a 2nd turn charge with the other, but something is getting shot up but the crossbowmen either way. If I take these guys, I doubt he'll have his crossbowmen on the frontline, so I probably won't make it into combat with them until after they've shot. 

Praecautus,

I still like gorecleaver on juggerlord because when he charges and wounds on a 5 it's 3 wounds and a 6 is mortal wounds, everything else is still -2 rend so it really eats through armor. 

What do you mean he can only shoot the closest unit?

Zamik,

I had a slaughterpriest, aspiring deathbringer, bloodstoker, 2x10 blood warriors, and 2x5 skullreapers. All but 3 of my blood warriors died from the first volley and the slaughterpriest wasn't going to be within range until my 3rd hero phase, which would've been far too late to disrupt the shooters. I had the same hope, but I think the slaughterpriest is too slow and he's not even reliable because I can't fit him into a gore pilgrims list in 1k.

[Luke1705]

If you are in combat with a shooting unit, they must target a unit that they are in combat with.  It doesn't necessarily mean the *closest* unit, but for example if my unit of blood warriors is 5" away, and there is a unit of reavers 2" away, then they have to shoot the reavers.