AoS 2 - Blades of Khorne Discussion

[Agent of Chaos]

1250 point game yesterday, Khorne vs Destruction (Moonclan Grots)

I went for a Lord on Daemonic Mount as my general, supported by a bloodsecrator, bloodstoker and Daemon Prince. 10 x Bloodwarriors, 2 x 5 Flesh Hounds as battleline and 2 x 5 Chaos Knights with glaives for some punch.

The Grots were basically 50 x spearmen with netters, 40 x archers, 2 x spear chuckas and some shamans/big boss.

He went first, managed 3 successful Rampaging Destroyer rolls and suddenly those 50 spearmen made a first turn charge and engaged a unit of knights and flesh hounds before piling in to my Bloodsecrator! The boss' command ability meant their 6's to wound caused mortal wounds in addition to regular damage, and they were wounding on 2's thanks to their numbers. The assorted netters meant I was -1 to hit them back. Granted it was a few points to put together but the little grots packed a punch, had me on the back foot early and took out the Bloosecrator, Bloodstoker, both units of flesh hounds, 3 x chaos knights and all 10 blood warriors before finally being wiped out. 

The daemon prince, lord on mount and second unit of knights worked their way through the archers and the goblin heroes but the grot spearmen, supported by some snotlings, were churning through my backfield. In fact, the only thing that kept me in the game was summoning. Turn 2 I summoned a Bloodmaster onto an objective in order to score points and keep me in touch. Turn 4 I summoned a unit of Bloodcrushers but their Turn 5 charge failed to clear off the spear chucker crews meaning I couldnt take that objective. I had enough blood tithe to summon 5 x flesh hounds in the final turn but couldnt place them where they needed to be in order to attempt a charge on a marked objective. Therefore it literally came down to a long charge made by 2 surviving knights to kill some snotlings and be in range to claim my objective back off them, making the game a tie on 15 points each. 

This was a funny game where the destruction allegiance ability basically set him up from the outset and nearly delivered the win. Pretty sure he didnt make another Rampaging Destroyer roll after the first turn.  We do a fair bit of complaining (at least I know I do) that khorne summoning is at the expense of our allegiance abilities however this game showed how at lower point levels and particularly against lower tier armies how important summoning can be. You really have to feel for non-summoning/non-battletome armies as my summoning is what allowed me to keep pace with objective points. I also feel that mobility is crucial in these smaller games, hence why I generally went for fast moving heroes and units and why summoning can be so devastating.

[Scrags]

Anyone have thoughts on the Wrath of Khorne bloodthirster? It seems good but I'm on the fence about spending 320 points on one starting in my army as opposed to summoning one later on. 

What bloodthirster variants are y'all running?

[Agent of Chaos]

Love the Wrath of Khorne bloodthirster! His command ability is essential for a first turn letter bomb and works great when used on himself as well. Not to mention some handy ranged attacks. The whip always misses but the guaranteed mortal wounds from the breath are great. I run mine as my general with Immense Power command Trait and Death Dealer artifact for plus 2 damage. The extra damage turns a poor melee roll into a reasonable result, and when you roll well he eats anything. In recent times mine has claimed two Lords of Change (one of those when he was down to 2 wounds) and a Warpfire Dragon, each killed in a single round of combat. However without the artifacts (i.e. when summoned) his damage is a little dicey and you are  less likely to benefit from his command trait late game.

He isnt hard to kill so I use him to get the letters in first turn, then he throws himself in by the second turn. A turn or 2 later he will be dead but will have earned a few blood tithe points back for some late game summoning. 

[Retro]

1 hour ago, Scrags said:

Anyone have thoughts on the Wrath of Khorne bloodthirster? It seems good but I'm on the fence about spending 320 points on one starting in my army as opposed to summoning one later on. 

What bloodthirster variants are y'all running?

100% love him, but i wouldn't bother if you don't run the letter bomb.

 

His command ability is what sets him apart from the other bloodthirsters as giving you first turn charge. That and his re-roll hits against heroes.

As @Agent of Chaos said, he dies easy and isn't the best when not buffed with extra damage (although I normally run him with immense power/crimson crown and I'm thinking of going immense power/doppelganger next time to let him survive longer).

That said, i summoned one in a game yesterday and he one shot a warchanter holding an objective (flail hits sometimes ?) then was able to summon a unit of 5 bloodletters on the objective next turn, kill 8 ardboys the next shooting phase and tie up another unit to prevent them getting to an objective - game winning!

I'm actually planning on writing up a battle report for the game, was awesome and actually ended in a draw

[Ravinsild]

I guess it’s kind of meaningless to ask this because it won’t stop me from trying but anyway - If you have all the Khorne demons EXCEPT BloodTHIRSTERS are they worth running just because they look like badass Balrogs? 

I don’t own any Khorne demons and don’t plan to either except for Bloodthirsters. On the other hand it’s a 110$ model and if I’m only going to run them and no other demons is it worth it at all? I mean to me it’s worth it just for a shelf space bro and 40k too but just wondering. 

[Aspirant Snaeper]

7 hours ago, Ravinsild said:

I guess it’s kind of meaningless to ask this because it won’t stop me from trying but anyway - If you have all the Khorne demons EXCEPT BloodTHIRSTERS are they worth running just because they look like badass Balrogs? 

I don’t own any Khorne demons and don’t plan to either except for Bloodthirsters. On the other hand it’s a 110$ model and if I’m only going to run them and no other demons is it worth it at all? I mean to me it’s worth it just for a shelf space bro and 40k too but just wondering. 

I think the Wrath of Khorne 'thirster needs at least one Khorne Daemon unit to let you make the most of it's Command Ability. I might suggest a unit of Blood Crushers as you don't like Daemons so the fewer the better, plus their "speed" will be able to make better use of the WoK's ability. Throw the crushers across the board quickly at something they have a decent chance of killing and watch your opponent's knee ****** as his strategy is potentially compromised. 

Otherwise, if any ole 'thirster will do, then the Insensate Rage works on the cheap end. You're not losing as much without being able to tap his command ability, you get a big scary monster your opponent will throw things at, and if the dice god is in your favor and your opponent has placed his units poorly (or has a horde or multiple hordes), you have the potential to go nuclear with that axe of his. Do everything in your power to give him additional attacks! However, he is situational at best. 

On the flip side, you've got Skarbrand. He doesn't play with others regardless of who is next to him and creates a "Damned if you do, Damned if you don't" situation for your opponents. The drawback being that his kit is more expensive and his points cost is as well. 

Edited July 30, 2018 by Aspirant Snaeper

[mastercrafted]

14 hours ago, Agent of Chaos said:

No you pretty much need all 4 heroes in 1000 points. Our units need the buffs they provide and they are essential for summoning. 

I'm really not a fan of the mighty lord. His command ability effects 3 other units but how many times in a 1000 point game would you have 3 units all looking to charge in the same turn?  Also you want him in combat but with only 5" move he doesn't get around. For a more offensive and mobile General look at a Lord of Khorne on Daemonic Mount (especially if you're running any knights), Lord on Juggernaut or Khorne Daemon Prince. 

Bloodsecrator is essential in most khorne armies and depending on how you play, a Bloodstoker is fairly essential as well. For the sake of one slaughterpriest I probably wouldn't bother. They are extremely useful however 4+ to bless/pray is dicey and outside of gorepilgrims or a second priest for law of averages he is a bit hit or miss in 1000 points. For the same points an Aspiring Deathbringer's ability is more reliable. Assign him to  a unit of Blood Warriors or Skull Reapers and watch him go.

thanks for the reply. My list is currently looking like this, but i might well swap the lord, blood warriors and maybe skull cannon for more letters and a mobile choppy general like you suggested. 

Allegiance: Khorne

Leaders
Bloodstoker (80)
Bloodsecrator (140)
Mighty Lord Of Khorne (120)
- General

Battleline
20 x Bloodreavers (140)
- Reaver Blades
5 x Blood Warriors (100)
- Goreaxe & Gorefist
10 x Bloodletters (120)

Units
3 x Bloodcrushers (150)
1 x Skull Cannons (150)

Total: 1000 / 1000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 75
 

[Easytyger]

23 hours ago, TheAdequateWargamer said:

Also the demise of the murderhost may be greatly exaggerated.

If the internets are correct @Dan.Ford finished second at Bobo with it.

Skullmaster, bloodsecrator, skarr

3 x 30 bloodletters

5 x 5 fleshhounds

Oh that's great news. Do you know what traits and artifacts? Didn't think it would still be competitive

Edited July 30, 2018 by Easytyger

[Xasz]

11 minutes ago, Easytyger said:

Oh that's great news. Do you know what allegiance, traits, and artifacts? Didn't think it would still be competitive

It's on aosshorts.com

I have no intention of lessening this achievement but it should be taken with a grain of salt.

The edition is still young and the meta hasn't settled one bit. Several participants might have experimented, while the Murderhost is something tested and refined from the previous meta. Not to mention that he is very familiar with the list/concept.

Murderhost is a rather aggressive strategy and I feel there are some similarities to Magic. When a new set drops, aggressive decks and especially red often strives for the first couple tournaments but they become less and less attractive (sometimes not, depending on the set/block) when players start to figure the set out. Players become familiar with such strategies and learn how to beat the current aggressive decks and how to optimize their slower decks accordingly. (midrange and control decks tend to be harder to build/optimize than aggressive ones and the latter capitalize on that in the beginning)

Nevertheless, good to see a Khorne list doing well.

[TheAdequateWargamer]

35 minutes ago, Easytyger said:

Oh that's great news. Do you know what traits and artifacts? Didn't think it would still be competitive

Khorne from realm of ghur.

Brazen rune on bloodsecrator

Slaughterborn and gryph feather charm on the skullmaster (feather is -1 to hit and possibly +1 to move cant quite remember). 

Edited July 30, 2018 by TheAdequateWargamer

[Easytyger]

Ah thanks to the both of you.

[MOMUS]

On 29 July 2018 at 4:40 PM, TheOtherJosh said:

Perhaps, but the wording is “the attacking unit suffers [...]” not “the enemy unit suffers” ...

In the case of Skullreapers, if they kill themselves in their combat phase (not the enemies combat phase), then they are “the attacking unit” ... whether that is intended or not.

Yea I'm playing RAI I'm pretty sure

If we wanted to be really picky we could say the unit isn't 'attacking' itself is it? Just suffering wounds, attacking is listed on page 231 of the core rules as picking a target and using all the weapons stats, etc etc  Self inflicted wounds don't follow that process.  

Edited July 30, 2018 by MOMUS

[Ravinsild]

3 hours ago, Aspirant Snaeper said:

I think the Wrath of Khorne 'thirster needs at least one Khorne Daemon unit to let you make the most of it's Command Ability. I might suggest a unit of Blood Crushers as you don't like Daemons so the fewer the better, plus their "speed" will be able to make better use of the WoK's ability. Throw the crushers across the board quickly at something they have a decent chance of killing and watch your opponent's knee ****** as his strategy is potentially compromised. 

Otherwise, if any ole 'thirster will do, then the Insensate Rage works on the cheap end. You're not losing as much without being able to tap his command ability, you get a big scary monster your opponent will throw things at, and if the dice god is in your favor and your opponent has placed his units poorly (or has a horde or multiple hordes), you have the potential to go nuclear with that axe of his. Do everything in your power to give him additional attacks! However, he is situational at best. 

On the flip side, you've got Skarbrand. He doesn't play with others regardless of who is next to him and creates a "Damned if you do, Damned if you don't" situation for your opponents. The drawback being that his kit is more expensive and his points cost is as well. 

Yeah of the demons I don’t mind as much it would be Bloodcrushers.... maybe there’s some way I can cut off the Bloodletter riders elongated alien head off and their stupid long tongue to just look like standard Red Devils or something. 

Bloodletters just look like an ugly joke to me I don’t know why lmao. 

[TheOtherJosh]

12 minutes ago, Ravinsild said:

I can cut off the Bloodletter riders [...] stupid long tongue

Completely with you ... the tongues aren’t optimal...

[Aspirant Snaeper]

33 minutes ago, Ravinsild said:

Yeah of the demons I don’t mind as much it would be Bloodcrushers.... maybe there’s some way I can cut off the Bloodletter riders elongated alien head off and their stupid long tongue to just look like standard Red Devils or something. 

Bloodletters just look like an ugly joke to me I don’t know why lmao. 

While I would point out that the tongues make a great part to use an accent color on to break up all the red, the tongue and the elongated skull part are actually one piece of the kit. 

The face and horns are conveniently attached, so you'd just need to ball up some green stuff to finish out their head/skull and thus give it something to attach to the torso with. It'd be pretty simple to do even if you've never used Green Stuff before 

[Ravinsild]

I’m kind of interested in going to a tournament and trying to use a different list that hasn’t been seen before.

I’m thinking a Skulltake list or my Gore Pilgrims + Skulltake Battalion list or maybe even the Goretide where I buff out my Mighty Lord of Khorne with everything I can for better chances at that 5 up delete anything. I just need to get those wounds through and lots of attacks. 

On the other hand a Slaves to Darkness Calvary based Bravery Bomb running either STD style Allegiance or Khorne seems interesting.

I also have an all Brass Stampede Calvary only list, I just worry after the alpha strike the Mighty Skullcrushers kind of suck and won’t be able to kill the rest of the army themselves along with the Chaos Knights. There’d be no Wrathmongers for monsters or Skullreapers for hordes or anything. 

The biggest thing is planning for turn 2. I don’t know if this is generally a true statement - but at least for my personal lists there are no 1 drops and none of the Battalions that draw my eye are even capable of being 1 drops due to the nature of the units taken and then all the other units needed to fill out a list and support heroes. 

So I would need to practice with any of my lists absolutely optimal deployments so I don’t get charged turn 1 but am in a position to charge and don’t get shot off the board.

The Slaves to Darkness Ruinbringer Warband and Brass Stampede are alpha strike I need to get stuck in first type Battalions.

Gore Pilgrims and Skulltake on the other hand just buff Battalions that make everything in them do what they do even better than they already do it. Even so I would want the charge and to avoid being shot or charged. 

The Goretide is interesting. A strategy I’ve considered is throwing a Slaughterpriest out front and having my Lord of Khorne as far forward as possible. Use the ability to force an enemy units to run to me. If they’re within 8” activate my trap card, ahem I mean mighty lord of khorne’s command ability giving more reliable charges and then pile in and then activate the “you can charge if your Lord is within 3 inches” part and get everyone in during the hero phase and attack (once) per unit who made it and proceed from there. 

However that’s a super risky plan and if there’s one thing I’ve learned from Blood Bowl it’s the less dice you need to roll the better. The less saves I need to roll the better, and it’s a 50/50 of making them come to me without gore Pilgrims support. It’s also super iffy if they’ll end within 8” of my Lord. There’s a lot of variables but I think the above Battalions still have potential to be winners. 

I’m just going to have to play a lot of games against a large variety of opponents and see how to optimize my lists and deployment and find which is the most consistent and once I’ve found it try my luck at a tournament. 

One thing I found with the Goretide is giving my Mighty Lord of Khorne a Ghyrstrike and the Disciple of Khorne command trait. This gives him +1 attack and +1 to hit and to wound. 4 attacks hitting on 2’s wounding on 2’s and can be buffed by a Bloodsecrator to be 5. If I can get even more I’ll figure it out. Perhaps an Aspiring Champion.

Hopefully this will lead to getting his special axe ability off more consistently as much as anything on a 5 up no modified can be. 

I have a Lord of Khorne on Juggernaut but I’m not sure which units would be the best candidates for his command ability, however losing him for an AC would put me at an awkward 1960 points... 

Anyway STD units using STD Allegiance or Khorne bravery bomb and Calvary is strongly appealing, as is Skulltakers. I’m looking forward to testing The Goretide and I also like Brass Stampede for its Blitzkrieg opening, it’s just a matter of finding what comes after for a strong finish as well. 

If any of you tournament goers have any insight I would love to hear it! I’ve got about a year to prepare for the next Nashcon and in that time hopefully I can find the right list and get it painted before it’s time  

[JetBlackSVW]

What is your general tactic against armies that are a mix of ranged and elite infantry units like Stormcast Eternals?

I feel we have a lot of anti horde, anti magic, anti monster (Wrathmongers) but way less possibilities to deal with ranged combat and tanky elite units.

My only opponent right now plays Stormcast and although I have won some games against him it's always is a struggle, I have no reach and it takes way too long to kill his units.

I have no Bloodthirster and therefore no Bloodletter bomb.

 

Edited July 30, 2018 by JetBlackSVW

[Ravinsild]

6 minutes ago, JetBlackSVW said:

What is your general tactic against armies that are a mix of ranged and elite infantry units like Stormcast Eternals?

I feel we have a lot of anti horde, anti magic, anti monster (Wrathmongers) but way less possibilities to deal with ranged combat and tanky elite units.

My only opponent right now plays Stormcast and although I have won some games against him it's always is a struggle, I have no reach and it takes way to long to kill his units.

I have no Bloodthirster and therefore no Bloodletter bomb.

 

This is something I wonder about myself. I played against a dispossesed player with quite a lot of shooting, who had bunkered up behind shield walls and dug in protect all his ranged units with a wall of a ton of Warriors. However they were 1 wound apiece with I think a 4 up save so it was quite easy to mow through them. 

I noticed I got quite bogged down by an enemy Bonesplittaz player when he threw a huge squad of Boarboy Maniaks who are basically 40k Khorne Berzerkers who go really fast and can be buffed by the Waaagh! As well as his 30 blob of 2 wound apiece boys... even Skar Bloodwrath spitting out 16-17 attacks a turn only managed to average 2-3 a turn. 

I don’t know how to deal with mutliwound Battleline infantry like this as I don’t have but 1 or 2 games experience against them. 

I may need to invest into some skullcannons...

[Rift]

14 minutes ago, Ravinsild said:

even Skar Bloodwrath spitting out 16-17 attacks a turn only managed to average 2-3 a turn. 

 

 

how did you get 16-17 attacks? 

 

16-17 models within 3" of your model?

[Ravinsild]

3 minutes ago, Rift said:

 

 

how did you get 16-17 attacks? 

 

16-17 models within 3" of your model?

Yes. I got him surrounded on purpose 

[Agent of Chaos]

9 hours ago, mastercrafted said:

thanks for the reply. My list is currently looking like this, but i might well swap the lord, blood warriors and maybe skull cannon for more letters and a mobile choppy general like you suggested. 

Allegiance: Khorne

Leaders
Bloodstoker (80)
Bloodsecrator (140)
Mighty Lord Of Khorne (120)
- General

Battleline
20 x Bloodreavers (140)
- Reaver Blades
5 x Blood Warriors (100)
- Goreaxe & Gorefist
10 x Bloodletters (120)

Units
3 x Bloodcrushers (150)
1 x Skull Cannons (150)

Total: 1000 / 1000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 75

I take it you bought the start collecting khorne daemons box and Im guessing you are building a list with what you have so take what you can from these comments...

When writing lists for smaller point games the big things for me are mobility and reliability. Mobility is important because there are only a few units on each side which should mean more gaps on the table for out maneuvering your opponent or being first to those objectives.  Reliability is important because you cant afford for things to fluff in a low point game, hence my earlier advice on including a single slaughter priest, and I think the same applies to the skull cannon. If that one shot misses that is a lot of points sitting there not doing much. If you insist on using it, use it like the mobile weapons platform it is and get it into combat ASAP.

Bloodcrushers are a very poor unit for their points. By all means give them a go however if your experience with them is like most other people's you will be looking for an alternative soon. Yes they have speed but they hit like a wet tissue.  You already know my thoughts on the Mighty Lord so wont repeat those. As for the battleline, the reavers may as well split into 2 units as there is no benefit to the larger unit and two units gives you an extra blood tithe point. 10 x bloodletters have zero staying power and no buffs to hit so I would be inclined to leave these out for summoning. Either go big with a unit of 20+ or dont bother. Bloodwarriors try and expand to 10 with the goreglaive on the champion. Flesh Hounds make an excellent battleline unit, especially in small games where their speed gets them around the table, not to mention a good number of attacks and some handy unbinding as well.  

I'd recommend something like this;

Allegiance: Khorne
Leaders
Aspiring Deathbringer (80)
- General
- Bloodaxe and Wrath Hammer
Bloodsecrator (140)
Bloodstoker (80)

Battleline
10 x Blood Warriors (200)
- Goreaxe & Gorefist
- 1x Goreglaives
5 x Flesh Hounds (100)
5 x Flesh Hounds (100)
10 x Bloodreavers (70)
- Reaver Blades
10 x Bloodreavers (70)
- Reaver Blades

Units
5 x Chaos Knights (160)
- Ensorcelled Weapons
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne

Total: 1000 / 1000

[Ravinsild]

Honestly I’ve been thinking about Khorne differently, as more of like a World Eaters get into melee ASAP and move forward. 

In that way I’ve decided maybe Bloodsecrator isn’t exactly as super needed as everyone seems to think. However I’m not very good at the game so I could be wrong, but I’ve been building lists without one and I’m looking forward to trying them out. 

I’m excited to see what a super monster Khorgorath will do. Potential of 18 wounds no Bloodsecrator. Hitting and wounding on 2’s rerolling 1’s. I think it has potential to be filthy. 

 

[phizzco]

15 minutes ago, Ravinsild said:

Honestly I’ve been thinking about Khorne differently, as more of like a World Eaters get into melee ASAP and move forward. 

In that way I’ve decided maybe Bloodsecrator isn’t exactly as super needed as everyone seems to think. However I’m not very good at the game so I could be wrong, but I’ve been building lists without one and I’m looking forward to trying them out. 

I’m excited to see what a super monster Khorgorath will do. Potential of 18 wounds no Bloodsecrator. Hitting and wounding on 2’s rerolling 1’s. I think it has potential to be filthy. 

 

I think the big issues is battleshock unless youre running tons of small units.

 

[Ravinsild]

42 minutes ago, phizzco said:

I think the big issues is battleshock unless youre running tons of small units.

 

Just due to my playstyle that’s how I run it. MSU is my default for one reason or another. I don’t know if it’s a good or bad habit to have. 

[Agent of Chaos]

I'm finding I tend to run one unit of 30 Bloodletters, or sometimes a large block of chaos warriors instead, with the rest of the army being MSU however I am yet to leave the Bloodsecrator at home. There is definitely scope for not taking one but extra attacks are so damn good. However if you're not running gore pilgrims to boost the banner's range its easy to find your faster units and enemy wizards outside its effects. Keep in mind also that in some battle plans you need to keep someone on a home objective so he fills that role nicely and boosts any other friendly units who hang back with him.