AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion

[Skumbaagh]

4 hours ago, Brakkus said:

Pigs failed their charge and I didn't burn a CP to reroll, as I wanted to use both on waaagh rolls. 

Do I need to commit command points for waagh in my hero phase or can I wait until the waagh is about to kick off? 

[Brakkus]

@Skumbaagh

As I understand, since the waagg comand ability doesn't specify at what phase it needs to be used, it would be declared in the hero phase.

With that said, I made the mistake of not doing so (as this was the first time I was able to play in a month) and my opponent was nice enough to let me do it in the combat phase. We were playing a friendly game and I even said I screwed up but he let me do it anyway.

[broche]

waaagh is hero phase, charge is after you fail a charge (charge phase)

[Malakree]

Generally I save a CP back when I waaagh to have a reroll on crucial charges.

[Skumbaagh]

I brought it up cause I played it wrong in a tournament last month and I also wanted to highlight it here since I think it's common that people do it wrong. Also I think IJ need all the help they can get and that the wording on the warscroll is out dated. 

[SuperKick]

I've been doing Waaagh's at the start of the combat phase since that's when you count up the units. Is it definitely the hero phase then? 

[Skumbaagh]

Yeah. Proclaiming that there will be x numbers of waagh in the coming combat phase is done in the hero phase. In 2.0 this means you spend command points on something that may not happen if all charges fail. I suppose this is due to the old wording on the warscroll from when command abilities was used in the hero phase and needs a slight change, but rules as written makes it so. 

[Malakree]

11 minutes ago, Skumbaagh said:

Yeah. Proclaiming that there will be x numbers of waagh in the coming combat phase is done in the hero phase. In 2.0 this means you spend command points on something that may not happen if all charges fail. I suppose this is due to the old wording on the warscroll from when command abilities was used in the hero phase and needs a slight change, but rules as written makes it so. 

It also means you have to decide how many cps to save for rerolling failed charges rather than using what you need and then blowing all the rest on waaagh!

 

Honestly being able to use them at the start of the combat phase would way more sense. Specifically it would mean you could use them at the start of your opponents.

[PlasticCraic]

On 9/30/2018 at 6:25 AM, Skumbaagh said:

Also I think IJ need all the help they can get and that the wording on the warscroll is out dated. 

Agreed. 

Destruction GA as a whole is comically outdated, it's been literally years since we got a new Battletome, and the GH has offered precious little help.  

But hey, at least Chaos are getting another Battletome. 

So we've been pushed further down the queue.  Again.

[Oreaper84]

12 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:

Agreed. 

Destruction GA as a whole is comically outdated, it's been literally years since we got a new Battletome, and the GH has offered precious little help.  

But hey, at least Chaos are getting another Battletome. 

So we've been pushed further down the queue.  Again.

Dont lose heart! It ir Ork-tober and i think the deamon combo box is being released in Jan so that gives us Oct/Nov for releases....(bc nothing new in Dec)

[paul7926]

10 minutes ago, Oreaper84 said:

Dont lose heart! It ir Ork-tober and i think the deamon combo box is being released in Jan so that gives us Oct/Nov for releases....(bc nothing new in Dec)

All I've seen so far is stuff for 40K, which to be fair has an even older model line than the AoS and old Warhammer line we have to work with.  I do agree that Destruction is the last Grand Alliance that GW consider but for me I'll stick with it no matter what.  Green is the only colour that matters.

[Malakree]

14 minutes ago, Oreaper84 said:

Dont lose heart! It ir Ork-tober and i think the deamon combo box is being released in Jan so that gives us Oct/Nov for releases....(bc nothing new in Dec)

I think best we will get is Moonclan etc. stuff. I really doubt we will be getting an Orruk update till after GHB2019 at the earliest. There's been no hints or inclination that this is anything beyond "Grots" and the Warhammer Community AoS2 post made it clear that's Moonclan, Spiderfang, Gitmob and troggoths.

Notably, which makes more sense now we have seen the shroom trog, the post has the following image

However it only mentions Aleguzzlers as allies. 

[novakai]

So I guess next Orktober in 2019, eh

Though if rumor are true that Fyreslayer are getting a new BT soon it would give precedence that they are actually going to revisit older BT like IJ and the other pre-GHB ones 

[Vasshpit]

13 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:

 

But hey, at least Chaos are getting another Battletome. 

So we've been pushed further down the queue.  Again.

I think this is in part because most, if not all, of the chaos designs and themes are set in stone for the most part. 

Everything in Destro is for, lack of a better term, pretty generic fantasy themes.  

I believe we are coming in last due to GW needing to find a way to bring new and exciting ideas to Destro. 

I mean the fact that Troggs seem to be getting their own Shadespire warband is very interesting... not a single warband has come from a non-existing army. ?

Do NOT stay calm and waaaghh on!

The other allegiances will feel the power of Destro at some point!!

Edited October 2, 2018 by Vasshpit

[J.J]

Hey all!

While I'm not new to AoS, I'm rather new to Destruction and have very little experience with AoS2. Even though there seems to be negativity by the bucket over the last few pages of this thread, I was looking at investing in Ironjawz as my next army and was looking for some beginners advice!

Where is the best place to start? I assume the start collecting box is a good jumping off point, but I always get new-army paralysis when it comes to assembling and I'm not 100% sure on which equipment to take on my units. I'd also love to know what some of the more competitive builds are. While I'm not after copying the hottest lists shown online, I am hoping to use the army to attend a few local tournaments in 2019 and (fingers crossed) have a fighting chance - so any lists that have done well in the new edition will certainly get my cogs turning in terms of what I'd like to build.

[Malakree]

9 minutes ago, J.J said:

Where is the best place to start? I assume the start collecting box is a good jumping off point, but I always get new-army paralysis when it comes to assembling and I'm not 100% sure on which equipment to take on my units. I'd also love to know what some of the more competitive builds are. While I'm not after copying the hottest lists shown online, I am hoping to use the army to attend a few local tournaments in 2019 and (fingers crossed) have a fighting chance - so any lists that have done well in the new edition will certainly get my cogs turning in terms of what I'd like to build.

We are being negative because a lot of what is relevant has already been covered towards the start of it. That said the fact we are shooting ****** is more to do with our weakness to the absolute top tier armies. Against the stuff which isn't broken we are far more competitive.

Two start collecting boxes is a fantastic place to start, (Sadly they have removed the skirmish box which was just amazing) it gives you an amazing starting point of which everything is useful.

• Two Warchanters basically every IJ list runs at least one, a ton of them run two.
• 6 Gore-Gruntas. Build these with Pig-iron Choppa's. It is very rare to see a list with no GG's, most will run two units of 3 (3x3).
• 20 Ardboys. Again, most lists will include at least 10, some will run two blocks of 10, a block of 20 or even a unit of 30.
  Weapons wise they are the most flexible, personally I have started magnetising any weapons that fall off. The arms are the perfect size for a 3mm magnet and it lets me pick and choose my loadout. Build every command model you have the stuff for. Banners, Icons and drummers.

A massive post I made ages ago that is still mostly relevant. Mainly the tailing part isn't, you can still do some trixy stuff with the modern IJ allegiance it's just harder to do.

Modern Lists

This is the bit where there is a bunch of controversy over as we don't really have an "amazing" list that just works. Every option has some glaring weaknesses which leave us at a disadvantage. I'll run through a summery of them in Spoilers though.

Bloodtoofs

Spoiler

This is your standard base for a Bloodtoofs list.

Quote

Allegiance: Ironjawz

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
Orruk Warchanter (80)

Battleline
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)

Battalions
Ironfist (180)
Bloodtoofs (120)

Total: 1620 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 9
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 100

From here there are a couple of choices to make, mainly around whether you want cogs or not. Adding in a Weirdnob and Cogs is 180 which leaves you with 200 points float, there are a bunch of ways to finish it off but from that point on it's personal choice.

The other option is going for no wizards, this is what I'm currently playing around with. It involves adding on a Warchanter and 10 more ardboys, for a unit of 20. That leaves 140 points to be spent, something which is again personal choice.

GorDrakkfist

Spoiler

An alphastrike list which involves dropping The Big G's Command ability on a Gorefist then attempting to wipe your opponent off the board turn 1.

Quote

Allegiance: Ironjawz

Leaders
Gordrakk The Fist of Gork (580)
- General
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Warboss (140)
- Great Waaagh Banner
- On a Boar
- Allies

Battleline
6 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (280)
6 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (280)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)

Battalions
Gorefist (190)

Total: 1970 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 140 / 400
Wounds: 132

Some variation on this. There are a bunch of options but it all revolves round the same general principle, it's like different types of Dairy Milk Chocolate.

Ironfist

Spoiler

This uses our best battalion and drops the restrictions of the Bloodtoofs to gain far more options. Might use allies, might not, the exact composition varies wildly. The base is generally something like this.

Quote

Allegiance: Ironjawz

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)

Battleline
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)

Battalions
Ironfist (180)

Total: 900 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 23
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 44

With 1100 points to spare I hope you can see why I'm not bothering with any specifics. There are a ton of options.

No Battalion

Spoiler

This rounds out the last of the four standard lists. It's exactly like the Ironfist list but sacrifices the battalion in favour of putting more wounds on the board. In all honestly the two are variations on each other which are more about how much you value wounds vs lower drop count, +1 CP and artefact. 

 

Allies

Rather than post the massive amount of information here I'm going to put some links and add the caveat "Some of this information is slightly out of date" ie. you can only have 1 allied unit per 4 total units (so 3 at 12). 

Don't hesitate if you have any specific question. Generally most of the Megabosses only resort to being Ornery and Grumpy when there's nothing else to do (like duffin up dos Shiny Eads)

[J.J]

Wow, thank you for such a comprehensive and detailed response, it's a massive help!

I'll certainly be looking into getting some start collecting boxes, a Maw-Krusha and some Brutes. Love the look at a couple of the lists posted, I'd go Grunta heavy if the things weren't quite so pricey!

No more questions for now as I think you've covered everything I can think of, I'll keep reading the conversations in here and likely post up in a couple of months when I've managed to get some games in!

[Malakree]

4 minutes ago, J.J said:

I'll certainly be looking into getting some start collecting boxes, a Maw-Krusha and some Brutes. Love the look at a couple of the lists posted, I'd go Grunta heavy if the things weren't quite so pricey!

If you are going to buy GG's then you just buy the start collecting box.

Through GW you are spending £2 for 10 Ardboys and a warchanter ?

[PlasticCraic]

Excellent response as always @Malakree, you are a star.

[Malakree]

1 hour ago, PlasticCraic said:

Excellent response as always @Malakree, you are a star.

I dunno, I'm just throwing out the basics. To some extent i feel like I might be stifling discussion because it's perhaps to comprehensive without saying anything specific enough to get called on.

Really though I'm just satisfying the part of my aspergers which obsesses over th at kind of thing ?

[PlasticCraic]

I just think that structure around the core listbuilding archetypes would be really, really helpful for anyone starting out.

I'd be really pleased to read it, that's for sure.

[DerZauberer]

So just had another game yesterday with my Ironjawz against Sylvaneth (again).  We're both prepping for an upcomming event late November and tried to stay as competetive as possible.

My list was the same no-magic Bloodtoofs list @Malakree presented:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Mortal Realm: Hysh

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
- General
- Trait: Prophet of the Waaagh! 
- Artefact: Guardan's Coronet 
Orruk Megaboss (140)
- Artefact: Sash of the Ten Paradises 
Orruk Warchanter (80)
- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch 
Orruk Warchanter (80)

Battleline
20 x Orruk Ardboys (320)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)

Battalions
Bloodtoofs (120)
Ironfist (180)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 133
 

I've gone for the Waaagh-Bomb Artifact combo with Aetherquartz and Prophet. The Coronet for Mawkrusha and the +2" Move on the Megaboss.

Duality of Death, Bloodtoofs versus Dreadwood, both one-drops with pretty much the same strategy - get up fast to the objectives and force the enemy to fight you in melee. There was pretty much no shooting so it should be a tight game we thought. But in reality (i think), all was decided by the roll who was able to deploy first. Sad thing was, i had to go second and from there on it was an absolute uphill battle.

Sylvaneth took first turn, got redeployments and 3 free movements before the game starts. He parches my Mawkrusha (half movement), summons 20+10 dryads (alarielle + Branchwytch) and 2x2 woods and in the end of the movement phase he is on both objectives, each one covered by either durthu or alarielle, with screens of dryads with magical shield and -1 to hit due to being near woods. So if i charge, i have to go through the woods, against the screen of tanky dryads and get hit by 3" reach Durthu or 2" reach Alarielle.

One good thing for me was that the sylvaneth played chose to charge his 6 Kurnoth Hunters into my Aardboy Screen. We trade 9 Aardboys for 1 Kurnoth.

On my first turn then i was sorrounded by woods, with either Alarielle or Durthu covering both Objectives. My only flyer is parched and has 6" movement speed. Nice thing: i use 2 CP's and get 6 bonus attacks with waaagh and prophet of the waaagh and delete the kurnoth hunters. But besides that, i was done.

Funfact #1: The megaboss with his 60mm Base has real issues walking through woods. 

Second turn my opponent pretty much summons more dryads, more woods and sits on objectives. On my second turn i found some space to possibly get on one of the two objectives, charge in some gruntas, and a unit of brutes , get 2 extra attacks on waaagh. 

Funfact #2: I've lost 1 Grunta, one Gore-Choppa, one Brute Boss and one Brute to Sylvaneth woods.

I could not take out Durthu and my Megaboss got stuck in Combat ( 3") between to Trees, but could not reach Durthu (1"+) as he was to t h i c c. He was literaly locked and Durthu could use him as a punching bag with his 3" sword.

Funfact #3: We played Aqshy with the Realmscape Feature that inflicts D3 mortal wounds on runs of 6+ and charges of 10+ (for Bloodtoofs 5+ and 8+). I suffered about 10 wounds that way.

It was pretty much done there, Durthu was the only one who could possibly fall, but Alarielle was Irriscendent (Aqshy, -1 to hit her) on the objective sorrounded by Woods and 30+ dryads with -1 to hit and reroll saves of 1 (Mystcial shield).

We called it turn 3, it was a good game but i think Ironjawz simply don't have the tools to fight Sylvaneth which quickly bunker up on objectives. The durable screen and Hereos with high reach are just to hard to break through for us.

But: We both agree that if i got the first turn, i could spread out on objectives, block the wood summons and force the sylvaneth player to charge me. This removes the durability on dryads and makes it harder to get in reach with Alarielle and Durthu. Next game we agreed on a rematch with the same lists, but i get auto-first turn, so we can test it and the sylvaneth player can prepare for such a "bad" matchup.

Thoughts on list: 

• Megaboss needs Fly. Otherwise it's absolutly hard for him to do stuff. With Fly he could surpass screens and be a threat to support hereos. I will try out Aqshy and the Thermalrider Cloak next time. 
• Aetherquartz is funny and a blast if it works, but it worked out once out of 3 tries, so i don't know if it is worth it.
• Prophet of the Waaagh is Strong, but i always had 6 Units, and i only used it to fish for the 6's. It has its place with Aetherquartz, otherwise it's always Ironclad as it makes the MBMK so much more durable.
• No-magic is a thing and i think perfectly fine within Bloodtoofs. Cogs would've not helped at all this game, so i think i stay with no-magic Bloodtoofs.
• Ardboys with Shields are very, very durable, only loosing 9 on a 6 Kurnoth Hunters charge was awesome. 

Edited October 4, 2018 by DerZauberer

[Imperial]

Yesterday i watched game ID vs FEC. After this game i think IJ REALY OVERPRICED! 140 points AKHELIAN ISHLAEN GUARD and 140 points for GG... I think our real price near:
GG 80-120
Brutes 140-160
Ardboys 100-140/360

and etc and etc. It's very sad what Destruction dont get any battletome before next year. 

[Amradiel]

Could this work?

[Malakree]

@Amradiel don't see why not.

Use the ggs as the Ironfist boss so it's harder to remove.

One option to change it up is drop the 20 ardboys for a unit of 3ggs and take a unit of 10 brutes.

Less wounds but more killy depends how you feel about it.