AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion

[Malakree]

37 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

For double Cabbage running Gordrakk + MBoMK is probably a good option depending on points, and you're only increasing your list to 2-drops if you're trying to minimize them.
One battle regiment with Gordrakk + 2 troops and the second with MBoMK and 2 troops, and then that gives you room for up to 6 more troops and 4 more foot heroes while staying 2 drop.

That's why I'd potentially go Big G, is if I wanted the drops to be lower. The previous list would be for the double CP+Enhancement though.

EDIT: Honestly though I wouldn't bother for low drops with a double cabbage list. If they give you first turn you bum rush with the damage cabbage while trying to kill stuff, then blow finest hour on theirs.

If they take first turn you're fine anyway. It's the big power of Ironsunz.

Edited June 16, 2021 by Malakree

[Ganigumo]

Yeah my biggest gripe with the new system is that I think battle regiment is stronger than an enhancement for most armies (stronger armies seem to need them less than weaker armies too) while enhancements are really fun and open up a lot of cool play options but are taxed pretty hard. It feels like they taxed fun instead of power.

That said a Megaboss with arcane tome, flaming weapon, and a warchanter buff will be an absolute beast, sure we have destroyer already, but this combo can work multiple times and in the right list we could run both.

[Andrew G]

1 hour ago, Malakree said:

One bash forward two smashes back.

Personally I was contemplating something like this

The fungoids there because flying brutes is still one of the greatest things I can think of and Ghostmist is super nice, not to mention Mystic Shield on the Sunblessed cabbage is one of the best things I can imagine. using all out defence it has a 2+ save vs -2 rend which is nuts. 

I have to admit though I've always had a thing for double cabbage lists 

I like the idea, but not being able to use Mighty Destroyers more than once per hero phase kind of killed the fun of double-cabbage lists.

[Malakree]

1 hour ago, Andrew G said:

I like the idea, but not being able to use Mighty Destroyers more than once per hero phase kind of killed the fun of double-cabbage lists.

Double monster trigger is really nice and they are still a huge threat. Heroic actions are also amazing.

I'd use them for different roles with one being hyper aggressive and the other playing more defensively. I've always favoured a control by threats and high pressure type game and a damage based mawkrusha slamming into you is just as scary as it always was. Especially now that it's pretty easy to get them to a 2+ save. Add in the reduced board size and fact tjey coubt for 5 on objectives suddenly they are pretty damn terrifying.

Mystic shield, +1 damage, mighty destroyers, normal move, reroll charge if failed. That's ~31" threat range on a 40" board for a model with 8 attacks at 2+/3+/-3/3 and 2+/3+/-2/4 who also has a native 2+ save and -1 to hit.

As far as "deal with it" moves go that's pretty much the top end right there.

[PlayerJ]

Long time Warboss here, love our Ironjawz and am looking forward to what the future holds.

I just want to put it out there that, with our Warclans Book being one of the first new battletomes, our faction and subfaction enhancements, traits, warscrolls, etc., may (will probably) get changed or tweaked.

Edited June 16, 2021 by PlayerJ

[Tezia99]

I’m really curious for the Ironjawz/big waaagh changes in an updated tome too. I can’t see them just slapping Kruleboyz into an updated time and calling it good. That book is gonna be a massive 4 army update. I just pray daily to my little brutes that they become more viable. I’ve got 25 and would love to finally be able to use them competitively. 

[NauticalSoup]

15 hours ago, Tezia99 said:

I just pray daily to my little brutes that they become more viable. I’ve got 25 and would love to finally be able to use them competitively. 

Brutes have been playable competitively since they went down in price and Ardboys went up. With the changes to unit sizes and coherency I think it'll be difficult for GW to ****** them up badly enough that they don't fit into an army, and despite the big bases access to reach weapons will make them better off than Ardboys when reinforced.

Also worth nothing their true main competition, Goregruntas, are hobbled at 6 models by the coherency rules so internally that's also a win for Brutes since they'll be the most efficient hammer blob in IJ.

[Malakree]

42 minutes ago, NauticalSoup said:

Also worth nothing their true main competition, Goregruntas, are hobbled at 6 models by the coherency rules so internally that's also a win for Brutes since they'll be the most efficient hammer blob in IJ.

It is worth noting however that units of 3 GGs will count as 6 models for objective purposes which is a pretty huge boost for them.

As it stands at the moment ardboys look to be the big losers, especially with heroic recovery pushing bravery increases up in value.

[ShaneHobbes]

Are we taking bets on Frenzy of Violence being turned into a CA in the future?

[Malakree]

3 hours ago, ShaneHobbes said:

Are we taking bets on Frenzy of Violence being turned into a CA in the future?

Please god no...

I could see them turning the warbeats into CAs though rather than a 4+ trigger.

[ShaneHobbes]

1 minute ago, Malakree said:

Please god no...

I could see them turning the warbeats into CAs though rather than a 4+ trigger.

I'm hoping Warchanters get the priest keyword just to access all the nifty stuff they're adding but yeah if anything is going to be a CA I hope your version is the way they go..

 

Unfortunately I can see GW making FoV a one time use  with a cost along with a lot of other "free" abilities that are in the game. Looking at you Skink priests. 

[brattenbergus]

GHB 2021 Points Leaked 

 

[Tezia99]

Wow. Lots of point hikes there. Everything but  ardboyz and shaman going up up up. 

[VoodooChileIRL]

I know it is all up in the air (and with Kruleboyz an updated Orruk Warclans battletome is likely anyway) but what are the odds we see Warscroll updates with 3.0's release? The Megaboss CA, "Go on Ladz, get stuck in" is just All Out Attack with extra steps, though it does in theory give a non-general Megaboss on Maw Krusha an 18" All Out Attack. 

I'm also wondering who much the Warclans artifacts and the like might get affected. I know it's not powerful but a Weirdnob Shaman with "Bursting with Power" and the "Arcane Tome" can cast 3 spells a turn, 4 if they are using Cogs. I feel like there must be some shenanigans there.

[NauticalSoup]

I mean without a Warclans book on the immediate horizon Kruleboys aren't gonna sell a lot of models. Their warscrolls are expensive and largely mediocre and their one allegiance ability isn't gonna cut it. It would be very strange for them not to update the other warscrolls in the book at the same time.

[Tangjuicebox]

Honestly the 5 man squad size for ardboys is pretty limiting and I think Godrakk is over-costed but everything else looks fine points-wise. Most factions saw similar or worse price hikes. Still lagging behind Daughters and LRL of course but still, I'm fine with it, we did alright. 

[Lanoss]

I think Gordrakk’s value went waaaaaay up!

580pts yes. More. But seeing as everything’s gone up not so bad

With all the Hero and Monster abilities available to him

His own CA affecting 3 units

He does things not available to other units anymore 

[Malakithe]

So Blood Warriors and Chaos Warriors go to 10 but Ardboys stay at 5? Thats a max of 15 now and with coherency thats going to be rough.

Long live msu Brutes!

[Malakree]

Ok seeing the points I have the following opinions (assuming the new warclans book doesn't come out with 3.0)

Ardboys once again become the shizz. They went DOWN by 5 points and are battleline at 5 models, super efficient.

Brutes are once again useless, are boys are just better with that price split. As is the footboss.

GGs are still solid with only a 10 point increase. Mks/Big G are about the same as before relatively.

Warchanter 10point increase is expected tbh.

Allegiance: Ironjawz

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (495)
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (495)
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
Orruk Warchanter (120)
Gordrakk (580)

Battleline
5 x Orruk Ardboys (95)
5 x Orruk Ardboys (95)
5 x Orruk Ardboys (95)

Total: 1965 / 2000
 

So so tempting...

EDIT:

Or This

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (495)
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (495)
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (495)
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa

Battleline
5 x Orruk Ardboys (95)
5 x Orruk Ardboys (95)
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (170)
5 x Orruk Brutes (150)

Battalions
Battle Regiment
Battle Regiment

Total: 1995 / 2000

3 Drops...not terrible 

Edited June 18, 2021 by Malakree

[brattenbergus]

1 hour ago, Malakree said:

Ardboys once again become the shizz. They went DOWN by 5 points and are battleline at 5 models, super efficient.

Brutes are once again useless, are boys are just better with that price split. As is the footboss. 

Are they really useless? That Ardboys is Battleline at 5 models are really nice yes, but they cap at 15 models per unit. And you can only bring 2 units with 15 models in each, then you have to spam 5 man units. Wasnt Ardboys strength in numbers? To me it would seen Brutes are still looking good at 5 models. 

In your list though with the Big Boys its perfect with the 5 man Ardboys unit as Battleline. But that list focuses on the MKs to do the dmg, not so much the Ardboys. 

[SunStorm]

So if the restriction on Ardboyz needing to be 10s to count as battleline has been removed, then I can now fit Kragnos and 2x Mawkrushas in a 2000pt list. 

 

 

 

 

[Malakree]

12 minutes ago, brattenbergus said:

Are they really useless? That Ardboys is Battleline at 5 models are really nice yes, but they cap at 15 models per unit. And you can only bring 2 units with 15 models in each, then you have to spam 5 man units. Wasnt Ardboys strength in numbers? To me it would seen Brutes are still looking good at 5 models. 

Ardboys and Brutes are pretty close in terms of usefulness. You can now get 15 Ardboys for 285, compared to 10 Brutes for 300 points. I did a whole comparison before but basically 15 Ardboys are slightly better than 10 Brutes if you have a warchanter buff on them. Brutes only started getting better than Ardboys when Ardboys went up to 100 (from 90) and Brutes came down to 130 (from 140).

With a huge points difference now means that for infantry Ardboys are way more cost efficient than Brutes.

Then on the other end of it you had the hammer units, Brutes vs Goregruntas. GG's are just so much more versatile than Brutes especially now that they count as 2 models for objectives. If I were looking for a more "sane" list it would be more like this.

Quote

Allegiance: Ironjawz

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (495)
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
Orruk Warchanter (120)
Orruk Warchanter (120)
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)

Battleline
15 x Orruk Ardboys (285)
15 x Orruk Ardboys (285)
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (170)
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (170)
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (170)

Endless Spells
Soulsnare Shackles

Battalions
Warlord Battalion
Battle Regiment

Total: 2000 / 2000
Wounds: 138

This gives you basically everything you want, the stupid new shackles and is only 5 drops.

[NauticalSoup]

I'm pretty surprised they would widen the points gap between brutes and ardboys even worse than when the book first came out, when they previously changed the points on both to bring them closer to parity. If the points had been closer brutes could have done something Ardboys can't with new coherency, at that points spread... yikes.

[Scurvydog]

Spamming ardboyz seems like a suboptimal choice now. the coherency rules hit them hard with their 33mm bases and 1" reach. Brutes seem to be a better bet in units of 10 with the 2" reach weapons. Also with monsters being such a big deal and having so many objectives related to them in matched play, the +1 to hit for the brutes will for sure come into play a lot more, also commands on a 10 man brute unit will be more efficient than on 15 ardboyz, where the brutes will be able to attack with far more power than the 15 ardboyz can. 

3 man grunta units do not kill anything really, they are neither an anvil or a hammer at that value. I'll still probably run a unit of 3 for objectives due to the speed, and still have 6 to have a proper hammer unit support the MK, with spears it should be easy enough to get them in, perhaps missing out on a pig or two, but still much more likely to wipe out what they need and trigger smashing and bashing.

[NauticalSoup]

Ardboys have a job no matter what as the cheapest battleline choice. In small units they'll continue to outperform brutes.

Coherency definitely hurts Gruntas, but so too does it hurt Brutes, even with hackas. Slow as they are they'll have a hell of a time moving around the table and getting into position to inflict pain. Even with 2" I don't relish fighting brutes into position, 40s are just awful especially in big numbers. 

The damage output of brutes and gruntas is super duper close if I remember correctly, almost identical (maybe even the same median?) when they can all fight and are warchanted up. Brutes are more vulnerable to battleshock and much slower, but have smaller bases (although more of them). Overall even if one grunta is stuck at the back drifting, and even with a marginal increase in points, I think gruntas are still the clear winner here either at 3 or at 6.