Age of Sigmar: Second Edition

[Aginor]

6 minutes ago, bsharitt said:

Except a bastiladon isn't a hero...

Yeah I just noticed it myself. Sorry for the confusion, don't know what I was thinking there.

[TheOtherJosh]

7 minutes ago, bsharitt said:

10 wounds as the cut off was probably the right call and would work better here than the monter keyword.

There are MONSTERS that have down to 8 wounds.

2 minutes ago, Aginor said:

GW and their SCE I guess...

Neither the Screaming Bell, the Plague furnace nor Thanquol and Boneripper have the monster keyword.  The Bloodseeker Palanquin, Coven throne also don’t have it.  And they’re all over 10 wounds.

On the other hand, the Daemon Prince is less than 10 wounds (has 8), but has the monster keyword.

The MONSTER keyword is a solid choice and encourages non-monster HERO units to be closer in the thick of things. Especially ones that are not truly “solo-heroes” that work well when supported by minions... and not out on their own.

[bsharitt]

So for a little bit of Sunday summoning speculation. The Slaanesh preview mentioned summoning using depravity points and no reinforcement points. Safe money is on Nurgle and Nagash summoning moving into second edition unchanged but with no reinforcement points requirement. So now what's going to happen to all the pre-Nurgle summoning armies? I think Khorne might be an easy one. I think you can already summon a blood thirster with some amount of blood tithe points, so they could possibly just like up a list of units you can summon with blood tithe alongside the existing abilities. I don't know enough about Tzeencth, but I think messing with the fate dice to burn them to summon might be an interesting trade off. It's Seraphon that I can't really think of  thematic way they would get non-open ended summoning. Maybe some kind of "star points" that gather slowly each turn, but their wizards get some kind of "commune with the heavens" ability that raises the number of the "star points"(sounds kind of Mario-ish) that can then summon units. I can't recall, is that all the summonable factions?

[Freejack02]

16 minutes ago, Aginor said:

Or even more silly: a huge flying guy like the Celestant Prime could!
....except....wait. He can use it now as he doesn't have the Monster keyword...  GW and their SCE I guess... ?

Celestant Prime is NOT a good example if you're trying to cry foul on "OP Stormcast support"... that guy needs an identity beyond an overly expensive one-and-done assassin.

[Turragor]

41 minutes ago, Brightstar said:

And no one has ever given a good reason as why CP should be ties to battalions

It's a reward for having less flexibility in list choice - like an extra artefact was since the introduction of matched.

That's what everyone* has said. And I've seen  you two scamps argue 'no one has explained why 1 battalion should grant 1 CP' in a few places. Where have you cooked up the claim that no one has argued this?

24 minutes ago, DanielFM said:

Thus, their role as character snipers is destroyed.

Their 2+ to hit and -2 rend 2 damage attacks make them pretty good against most characters (if nothing else changes).

The forums are going a bit mad

I think I'll be on the down low till full info is out and things can be discussed a bit more calmly.

/Edit/ I'll add one thing because I saw someone (can't remember who) write that a lot of the animated discussion stems from feelings and you don't need all the facts to swing your feelings around.

This is true and I don't want to stop feelings.

However, feelings do not make for quality discussion and I think most of the boards show that right now.

That's just my opinion based on the feeling that I don't want to read TGA as much as I usually do and this is making me do more important work-like things and I resent that productivity!

 

*Well, lots have said. Or at least some. If not some then a couple. And if not a couple then I just said it.

[Aelfric]

Who wants to bet that the new Stormcast missile units have +1 to hit when targeting Heroes?

[Aginor]

1 minute ago, Freejack02 said:

Celestant Prime is NOT a good example if you're trying to cry foul on "OP Stormcast support"... that guy needs an identity beyond an overly expensive one-and-done assassin.

He definitely does. He is pretty lame right now. Most of the time he is just annoying with his long range auto hitting mortal wound area damage thing that requires no line of sight...

They should probably make him more powerful but more expensive.

Still weird that he isn't a Monster and thus can fully use cover and Look Out Sir.

[Turragor]

1 minute ago, Aginor said:

Still weird that he isn't a Monster and thus can fully use cover and Look Out Sir.

He can fold his wings up like all birds and he can stop shooting planets and sparkles out his butt.

[pseudonyme]

Wonder how does these changes will affect Skirmish.

[Aginor]

Just now, Turragor said:

He can fold his wings up like all birds and he can stop shooting planets and sparkles out his butt.

Haha OK fair enough!

And about the Longstrike guys: they will be fine. -1 to hit means they still have a better hit value than most ranged units and rend -2 is pretty strong. Most wizards have a 5+ or 6+ save so there will be some sniping capability left despite Look Out Sir.

 

[Turragor]

Just now, Aginor said:

Haha OK fair enough!

And about the Longstrike guys: they will be fine. -1 to hit means they still have a better hit value than most ranged units and rend -2 is pretty strong. Most wizards have a 5+ or 6+ save so there will be some sniping capability left despite Look Out Sir.

 

Yes I much prefer -1 to hit than a ward save.

[Rogue Explorator]

Look Out Sir

 

I was hoping for more, but I can see the point.

Untargetable unless-nearest heroes would have encouraged a small number of essential characters and resulted in protected warlords. LoS will not suffice to protect a single warlord or a duo of essential characters. Instead, LoS and the changes to command abilities encourages stocking up on more lightweight characters and building redudancies. It will be interesting to see if this works out. I feel this only works in MP if weaker heroes also drop in points, but I am hopeful this nudges the game to more closely resemble battles as the lore tells them, even if only in narrative games.

 

However, I feel it is a mistake to key of LoS by the "monster" keyword alone. Daughters of Khaine, Devoted of Sigmar and Soulblight (propably some others too) now get to enjoy Behemoths with LoS. And though I could not find a low wound hero with the "monster" keyword, such an unlucky sod remains thinkable.

[Karol]

1 hour ago, Killax said:

If 40K is the inspiration its even possible flying units can shoot outside of the combat they are in. There it actually makes sence aswell.

That doesn't really help kunnin rukk or other footbased shoting army like the free people gunlines.  And again my army has 0 shoting, and almost no casting, so it is not like I have something to lose here. Technicly I should be happy about shoting nerfs, but I understand that some serious rules rewriting is going to have to happen on the battletome level to make those armies work.

 

1 hour ago, Sleboda said:

That's troubling. It gives insight to the thought process in the studio. It does not matter how many shooting units are in AoS. What matters is how the ones that exist perform.

The number may not be huge, but the armies that can shot, do it a lot. I agree that the number of units per faction or even the entire game isn't as important as the % shoting units make up in some armies, and if those armies have melee units have something to stand in for those shoting units, if they remove them. Do Venguard Stormcast even make sense right now? Mid range shoting melee hybrid units, that now will not be able to use half the weapons they pay points for. Also I hope this is not going to be the case of you can't shot, but you can cast spells. And suddenly the stuff, becomes the new meta.

 

1 hour ago, Ollie Grimwood said:

That’s not down the rules it’s down to costing which is dealt with by the GHB. I also suspect that in most circumstances the changes to shooting won’t actually effect them or anyone else else for that matter. 

I don't know, am not an expert. But the points drop would have to be really substential for armies like KO to try going melee. And even then if something doesn't work, it just doesn't work. If people were locked in to mini factions, then maybe this would be a problem. But in case of order people will just take what ever is more efficient from other factions.

[kuroyume]

48 minutes ago, DanielFM said:

You know what's great? LoS makes impossible to trigger SCE Longstrikes Headshot (mortal wounds on 6+). Thus, their role as character snipers is destroyed. Great! They can still do mortal wounds against infantry, so worth 180 points for three ?

Don't forget the Knight-Venator with it's ability that is specially designed to kill infantry heroes which is now significantly worse.

[chord]

3 hours ago, Killax said:

The use of them are all options. You dont have to use anything. A real casual player will pick the things they know and want to use anyway.

The core of the rules might go from 4 pages to 8 and I dont know anyone personally who would see it as too much.

Like before GW still seems to classify by Grand Allegiance first and smaller after. Though even this is optional...

For me the true attraction to new players from all kinds is the minis that will emulate spells. I wish they did that in WFB to be honest because its cool.

Likewise I miss AoE templates in 40K.

Except in my area it's almost impossible to find people who play with anything less than the core rules.  So unless I want to play alone I'm forced to use all the core rules.  Not everyone has a thriving community

[Ollie Grimwood]

Blimey it feels like some are just flicking through the Warscrolls scrolls to find things to be outraged on behalf of others.  Jolly decent of them. 

[LLV]

Maybe people should wait to see the new warscrolls and points before even having an in depth discussion on how fringe cases will or won’t ruin the game.

just a thought.

[Burf]

2 hours ago, Aginor said:

10 wounds would be weird though.

A Bastiladon could use Look Out Sir then...

Or even more silly: a huge flying guy like the Celestant Prime could!
....except....wait. He can use it now as he doesn't have the Monster keyword...  GW and their SCE I guess... ?

Bastilidon is a hero? The 40k rule uses both 'character' and '10 wounds'.

The Celestant Prime tends to be an abberant in most things. Plus side, he's not very good in stormcast armies.

[DanielFM]

7 minutes ago, LLV said:

Maybe people should wait to see the new warscrolls and points before even having an in depth discussion on how fringe cases will or won’t ruin the game.

just a thought.

New warscrolls? Were are they intended to be amended? GHB? New rulebook? Or is it just speculation?

[Burf]

8 minutes ago, LLV said:

Maybe people should wait to see the new warscrolls and points before even having an in depth discussion on how fringe cases will or won’t ruin the game.

just a thought.

New warscrolls too?! Man that's annoying. So anyone who uses paper has to flip through the main rulebook for the general rules, the FaQs for clarification, the GHB for new warscrolls, and their battletome for unchanged warscroll.

The edition doesn't sound bad so far but it's certainly edging into 'irritating'.

[Aelfric]

7 minutes ago, LLV said:

Maybe people should wait to see the new warscrolls and points before even having an in depth discussion on how fringe cases will or won’t ruin the game.

just a thought.

I think the whole purpose of dribbling facts in the weeks running up to release is to allow us all to have these discussions, so that when it does arrive it's all not as bad as we feared so we can all breathe a sigh of relief, or we are all too exhausted to resist.  If they'd wanted us to wait, they would have kept quiet.  I think it's good to release the tension in this way; people can air there fears and discuss them in a fairly constructive way here, which can then give rise to the positives of possible changes as well as the negatives.  I think that's a good thing.

[Burf]

2 hours ago, TheOtherJosh said:

There are MONSTERS that have down to 8 wounds.

Neither the Screaming Bell, the Plague furnace nor Thanquol and Boneripper have the monster keyword.  The Bloodseeker Palanquin, Coven throne also don’t have it.  And they’re all over 10 wounds.

On the other hand, the Daemon Prince is less than 10 wounds (has 8), but has the monster keyword.

The MONSTER keyword is a solid choice and encourages non-monster HERO units to be closer in the thick of things. Especially ones that are not truly “solo-heroes” that work well when supported by minions... and not out on their own.

It's a meh choice at best because it makes things like the Celestial Hurricanum and Luminark of Hysh or Bloodwrack shrine, or any of the other large powerful units that don't want to be anywhere near melee crazy difficult to shoot.

With all the changes I think shooting units across the board are going to need a serious drop. Anything that isn't a shooting, non-monster hero is going to need at least a 20pt drop to be useful, even skyfires.

[Burf]

2 hours ago, Aginor said:

Haha OK fair enough!

And about the Longstrike guys: they will be fine. -1 to hit means they still have a better hit value than most ranged units and rend -2 is pretty strong. Most wizards have a 5+ or 6+ save so there will be some sniping capability left despite Look Out Sir.

 

They're only barely worth taking now. The combination of lookout sir+no shooting out of combat makes them pretty much dead in the water at 180pts.

[PlasticCraic]

37 minutes ago, Burf said:

It's a meh choice at best because it makes things like the Celestial Hurricanum and Luminark of Hysh or Bloodwrack shrine, or any of the other large powerful units that don't want to be anywhere near melee crazy difficult to shoot.

Yeah I personally think it would have been better to base it off the Behemoth battlefield role than the Monster keyword.  Similar to cover saves, the logic is presumably that they're too big, but not all monsters are big things, and not all big things are monsters.  

That being said I do quite like the change, they've made a sensible (imo) adjustment without kicking over the sandcastle.  

[Zerthin]

11 minutes ago, PlasticCraic said:

Yeah I personally think it would have been better to base it off the Behemoth battlefield role than the Monster keyword.  Similar to cover saves, the logic is presumably that they're too big, but not all monsters are big things, and not all big things are monsters.  

That being said I do quite like the change, they've made a sensible (imo) adjustment without kicking over the sandcastle.  

The game is not only matched play. Please remember that. 

Matched play may have additional rules covering Behemoths.