Age of Sigmar: Second Edition

[Enoby]

2 minutes ago, blueshirtman said:

I want to talk about it, or at least someone to explain to me why GW is doing such stuff. BCR is my army, and the last 6 months everyone was telling me to wait for rules updates that they will fix the army problems.

I agree with your previous point that it is silly for GW to make bad armies - I've seen first hand that people get bummed out when their new toys aren't as cool as they look. It's kind of sad to see people lose hope in their armies after playing them, and they certainly don't look to be jumping the gun to buy any new models.

That said, I don't think GW go out of their way to make bad armies. I think it's more likely that they have an idea they find cool on paper, but it doesn't play our how they'd thought but it's already played out by the time it's in print; for example, destiny dice are considered very powerful but I don't think anyone in the rules office made them in hopes of Tzeentch becoming the oppressively strong army it became, instead they just thought it would be a cool idea that worked with narrative forces. I think that BCR just got the short end of the stick when it came to what GW thought was cool; I don't think that GW care too much about balance of allegiance abilities, but rather how well they represent their armies. Stormcast are another good example - their allegiance ability isn't very good, but it is very narrative. 

It is a shame that your army got the short end of the stick, but I don't think GW sees it as a problem so I doubt they're in any rush to fix it. I personally would like them to pay a little more attention to balance - it puts a bit of a downer on a cool allegiance ability if it's just not very good on the table. 

On a related topic, I wonder when the first non-Stormcast or non-Khorne battletome redo will come about. 40K and WHFB had new army books every few editions, but I don't know if AoS will want to move away from that. It seems strange to leave an army un-updated for ages - surely that'd put people off buying new armies if they were likely to stagnate. On the other hand, we have loads of armies in need of a tome, and GW are releasing many new factions that have their own battletome so they just may not have time to rerelease all tomes to update them. 

[Lousy Beatnik]

9 minutes ago, Drofnum said:

From the podcast it sounded like they were doing all 13 models in a box.  Maybe bundling them all together on the same sprue could make them cheaper though?

Ooh, I'd love to be wrong. If it's a decent set, I'd be happy just to paint them up.

[AlphaKennyThing]

29 minutes ago, blueshirtman said:

That is what am trying to understand. GW is a company not a charity, they want to make money. Each bad army some dude buys, is not just one dude less buying their stuff, but also one very vocal person at a FLGS that got burned by their products. If enough people like that pop up at a store, GW products can get some really bad rep, and am sure it would lower the sales too. Also considering this is the age when people can check stuff online, if a new person sees enough bad reviews, they will just not pick up an army they wanted. And I don't think everyone who is sad about his dream army being bad, automaticly goes to buy tzeench or stormcats. There is a good chance they will not buy any models at all. And the gaming community loses one potential player.

Blueshirtman, as a new charity fundraiser, you are to put an amount of money of your choosing into a jar every time you say that Beastclaw Raiders are unplayable or a weak faction. I think we all feel your anguish at getting trainwrecked at your local group with a (currently) underpowered faction, but there is a new edition merely weeks away.

I know the faction focus wasn't exactly what you wanted to hear, but I urge you to hang fire and play a few games under 2.0 and GHB18 before deciding on the fate of your BCR models.

As an exercise in practicing some optimism, henceforth perhaps highlight some things you think Beastclaw might well be good at under the new rules? Keen to hear some opinions on it!

[Infeston]

21 minutes ago, AlphaKennyThing said:

Blueshirtman, as a new charity fundraiser, you are to put an amount of money of your choosing into a jar every time you say that Beastclaw Raiders are unplayable or a weak faction.

Hey. No need to be mean, man. I totally understand blueshirtmans frustration about this. I am also feeling this way because of the faction focus. But please don't be mean with metaphors like this. 

@blueshirtman I totally get your frustration, And as a fellow BCR player I feel the same way. But maybe we should switch the topic until we get new information about this. I think there will be enough time to talk and complain about the changes if the new Handbook is revealed and we, in fact,  either got nothing or maybe we will get something. But maybe let us remain hopeful at the moment. Until the end. 

And if in the end we really get nothing, I am all with you on the critique train. ? We BCR players have waited enough for new changes and hopefully GW will read some of the complaints and think about changing some aspects for us. But I don't know in the end. Let us remain hopeful, even though there are few reasons to remain that way.

So before the others get to angry at us for talking too much about BCR in this thread: I really like the pendulum. I think it is an awesome effect to have a giant pendulum swing all over the battlefield. The more I think about it, you could place it somewhere on an objective, so that the objective gets more dangerous. I am pretty excited about other endless spells.

How many are revealed at the moment and how many are we still missing?

[Aeon]

I was kind of hoping that the new Generals Handbook will have all of the previous allegiance abilities (updated for the new rules) as well as a few others for the larger range still with models (Gutbusters, death rattle, Swifthawk Agents, Verminus, etc)

Sadly it doesn’t seem to be (maybe for 2019?)

Im curious what other stuff we will get in the books; Skirmish? Path to Glory? Legendary Battles? (Apocalypse)

 

[AlphaKennyThing]

30 minutes ago, Infeston said:

Hey. No need to be mean, man. I totally understand blueshirtmans frustration about this. I am also feeling this way because of the faction focus. But please don't be mean with metaphors like this. 

@blueshirtman I totally get your frustration, And as a fellow BCR player I feel the same way.

That wasn't mean! S'why I said for charity! Did you not ever have a swear jar at home, where everytime you caught yourself swearing you had to put money in there?

I get both your frustrations, BCR went from happily ruining my army under GHB16 to well... not. But as you alluded to, I think we've done that topic to death - that's why I asked at the end what you think is going to be really good about BCR come 2.0. There's bound to be some positives based on what we know!

[blueshirtman]

55 minutes ago, AlphaKennyThing said:

As an exercise in practicing some optimism, henceforth perhaps highlight some things you think Beastclaw might well be good at under the new rules? Keen to hear some opinions on it!

I said it before, I can't think of a single good thing.  Everything either effects all armies, which means better armies can easier adapt or use the new or changed mechanic. The BCR don't have access to a new or changed mechanic.   Now it would make no sense, for me at least, to make bad factions and try to market them to people. That is why I am asking for someone to help me make sense of it all. I understand if this was mid edition, and GW didn't knew yet how factions work or don't work. But they have a clear picture on what is good and what is bad. And the good armies seem to be getting a lot of buffs. If I were lets say a slyer player, I would be happy with the points drops, more command abilities and harder to snipe heros, even if I would not get access to magic etc.

Plus am just stating BCR as being bad as a fact, they are bad, some non faction armies are seen more often then BCR. I just want to understand or for someone to explain to me the hidden meaning behind the BCR write up. Because all I am getting from it is, buy 3 starters and buy ally. And I don't know, maybe am more slow thinking then I thought, but I just can't imagine a company selling their product with slogans like that.

[ageofpaddsmar]

Not to mention the new pile in is gonna mess BCR up

[blueshirtman]

9 minutes ago, ageofpaddsmar said:

Not to mention the new pile in is gonna mess BCR up

May I ask what is the change that targets BCR specificly as far as pile in goes?

[rokapoke]

Well I read the faction focus for Beastclaw and I still want to start them as my next army! They look fun to paint and fun to play with. Honestly some of those Grot models have me thinking along those lines, too.

[Waiyuren]

17 minutes ago, blueshirtman said:

May I ask what is the change that targets BCR specificly as far as pile in goes?

It's to do with the "no further than" part of the new pile in rule, and the removal of base contact locking a model in place. It means small based models can slide around big based models and get as many of their number into contact as the 3" allows, whereas larger based models get less use from it vs small based models.

Speculation ahead:

It's potentially worse for oval bases due to needing to move around the closest model, which if you've been "pinned" by a 25mm base right on the very tip of your base's narrow end, forces you to pivot or slide against them. As you measure distance by the part of the model that moves the furthest, if you have to pivot, you won't be going very far. 

I'm probably wrong though, you can probably move freely so long as you end equidistant or closer to the model you were closest to at the start of pile in...

Ugh, but what does that mean if you were equally close to 5 guys? Can you pick one, or do all of them count, locking you in place? ?

[Naflem]

43 minutes ago, rokapoke said:

Well I read the faction focus for Beastclaw and I still want to start them as my next army! They look fun to paint and fun to play with. Honestly some of those Grot models have me thinking along those lines, too.

If the meta does change to involve more small heroes to make use of the new command ability/command point issues Thundertusks Snowball might be more relevant, particularly as it will be unaffected by the new "Look out sir" rules.

[AthlorianStoners]

Seriously BCR are no where in as bad a spot as you’re suggesting @blueshirtman. A lot of people love the faction, play with them and win. 

Regarding potential positive changes, keep in mind we have to wait and see for the new edition to drop. 

From what we have seen though: 

- Points Decrease: we don’t know by how much, we could be the biggest beneficiary of points decreasing out of anyone. Again it will be prudent to wait. 

- Spell Lores: Allied casters can now have the option for more versatility. In comparison to armies who already had magic that isn’t a huge deal, but for us it is quite massive and gives us more tools to use. If you have issues with allies that’s fine, but that’s a personal choice that not I’m not willing to get into here.

- LOS: the new LOS will not affect our Thundertusks, making them one of the best hero killers in the new edition. 

We also have rumoured changes from LLV who has correctly predicted everything for this new edition. 

One of those in particular, Chargers go first, would be insanely beneficial to us. 

Other potential changes that we may see once the new edition drops could include: 

- Warscroll changes: We could see changes to command abilities, unit classification or other general warscroll changes. They’ve said this is the case for many units and have not directly showcased those changes. 

- Matched Play missions: BCR only really struggle in certain matches play games, so I assume you play matched play, as that would explain your frustration. In open play or pure kill games they decimate. With that being said, the new missions could prove friendly or hostile to BCR armies. There might be one that is absolutely killer for us that lets us auto win. Again patience will be key here. 

- Command Points: Currently Command Points have been rumoured to be a valuable resource, and we don’t know the full extent of what they can be used for. Waiting to see what exactly we can get with them and how they interact with our faction will be a piece of seeing how we work in the new edition. 

Everyone’s entitled to feeling however they want, however I would urge you to perhaps recluse yourself a tad from the current conversation. Your discussion is becoming cyclical, and no one can really answer how BCR have been jmproved in the new edition until the new edition drops. So please, excercise some patience and restraint and wait the couple weeks.

And hey, if the new edition comes out and you’re still unhappy, I’ll trade you an army for your BCR. I have 2000 pts of FEC and 1000pts of Nighthaunt. I also have 2000 of BCR so I’d love to expand the faction if you don’t want to play them. 

[Chikout]

22 minutes ago, blueshirtman said:

 

I also understand the frustration of destruction players. When aos first released,  destruction fared pretty well. They got three battletomes in the first year, compared to just one for death and the same number as chaos. 

All three armies were strong in their own way. Then ghb 2017 came along and Destruction dropped off the map. 

This year's Death release gives an idea of gw's product schedule. The single aos Army that got most negativily affected by a ghb was the flesh Eater courts. It is telling that even though it looks like they will be getting the best summoning in the game, most people think they will be merely decent in 2.0.

This is pretty clear evidence of the slow process of the GW machine. That said 2 years for major fixes and a few months for minor adjustments is better than the 5 years for anything at all that GW used to have.

I think that in designing aos 2 it seems clear that GW took a wide look at the game and attempted to identify elements of the game that we being ignored by the playerbase. Summoning and command points were the big two of those.

I think most people agree that command points are a good change that will make the game more interesting.

There are lots of people unhappy about various elements of summoning but in a setting where summoning is a major part of the thematic identity of two of the 4 grand Alliances,  it makes sense that GW would want to put it centre stage. 

Then you have the notion that Aos is a setting that is literally built out of magic. So GW wanted to make that more important. 

Finally you have this other game where shooting is very much a thing. In order to differentiate the games a little more, GW has toned down shooting in AoS a little.

The result of this is that those armies that rely on shooting, that don't have many command abilities or summoning or powerful magic may suffer. 

The solution is additional command abilities for heroes in armies currently lacking them, tweaks to allegiance abilities, additional battalions and artifacts,  and of course points adjustments.

Until we have seen how all these elements work out it is completely impossible to know how things will work out in aos2

In a completely unrelated note,  the 40k 8th preorder date was announced on a Tuesday 11 days before preorder. It looks like today will be the day when we finally get some concrete info. 

[Lemondish]

4 hours ago, blueshirtman said:

I want to talk about it, or at least someone to explain to me why GW is doing such stuff. BCR is my army, and the last 6 months everyone was telling me to wait for rules updates that they will fix the army problems.

Two things come to mind here. One is that these rules updates are coming, but haven't arrived yet. It might be best to get into a positive mindset before they do. I think you'll find it easier to assess the opportunities of not just the points reductions or other changes, but also how they interact with things everyone gets like the new artefacts. 

Second - try to reign in your expectations a bit. I can't tell you how many times I've seen folks dead set on being upset that they miss the impact subtle changes can have in their favour. For example, from what I understand, BCR is now the best faction at sniping out heroes. Nobody can compare to them now because, even though -1 to hit seems like a subtle, almost minor change, it means a lot of the best units that gained an effect on a 6 to hit no longer get that on heroes. That's a subtle, but powerful change for a popular BCR unit that just got cheaper as well. That's an example of something we know about, but there's so much more we don't know. Try to keep an eye out for things like that without being overwhelmed with all this doom and gloom.

The points changes are another example. From the sound of things, BCR was strong in early AoS, but was unfortunately tuned down too heavily. A correction the opposite direction could get you what you want - a viable, strong force, even if these types of changes are happening to other factions at the same time. 

I really appreciate your passion for BCR. I hope, after the Death stuff is released, that you start to see the expansion you're hoping for. Until then, I hope you're able to find a way to enjoy this faction in the new edition. 

[Requete]

Yeah, let's have another 90 pages of no discussion about anything related to 2nd edition except for the Dickensian tragedy of one whiner who can't win with his Beastclaws. That will be edifying indeed.

[Sactownbri]

On 5/30/2018 at 1:45 AM, stratigo said:

 

that would be...nuts. That's generating, roughly 500 to 600 points worth of models over 5 turns by itself. That's WAY too much. Combine that with starcasters and you're putting out like, a dread saurian turn 2. That is not an army I think anyone not able to generate another 500 points of their own will want to play against.

How’s the demon splitting any different than bringing back a 60 man squad of zombies? I need to play it before I pass any judgements.

[Sactownbri]

1 hour ago, Requete said:

Yeah, let's have another 90 pages of no discussion about anything related to 2nd edition except for the Dickensian tragedy of one whiner who can't win with his Beastclaws. That will be edifying indeed.

Don’t forget all the duardin players that we’re told to bring Stormcast allies. At least the Beastclaw Ogors have the firebelly Ogors to ally in.

[Skreech Verminking]

Don’t forget all other faction which got even the shorter end of the stick.

 

(still hoping for those skaven, greenhings and elvethings, from the old world (referred to Darkling coven etc.) battletomes

[Skreech Verminking]

Anyways, does anybody know what kind of army will be having its faction focus today?

[Waiyuren]

4 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Anyways, does anybody know what kind of army will be having its faction focus today?

There can't be too many left. Elves?

[ZaelART]

14 minutes ago, Sactownbri said:

How’s the demon splitting any different than bringing back a 60 man squad of zombies? I need to play it before I pass any judgements.

I think... really different.

As far as I’m aware splitting just happens. It doesn’t cost CP, doesn’t require special sites, the new models will appear where the old ones died meaning they are in the thick of it.

Resurrection is very situational, can be blocked by the opponent, is likely to occur in your back field (long walk ahead), requires your general to be next to the resurrection site, and you’re unlikely to be able to even fit 60 models within the allocated space meaning bringing back that unit is impossible. It also costs a CP.

[Waiyuren]

8 minutes ago, ZaelART said:

I think... really different.

As far as I’m aware splitting just happens. It doesn’t cost CP, doesn’t require special sites, the new models will appear where the old ones died meaning they are in the thick of it.

Resurrection is very situational, can be blocked by the opponent, is likely to occur in your back field (long walk ahead), requires your general to be next to the resurrection site, and you’re unlikely to be able to even fit 60 models within the allocated space meaning bringing back that unit is impossible. It also costs a CP.

I feel like spitting is going to cost fate points, or whatever they're calling them. They sound ridiculously easy to get, more so than any other faction I've seen so far, and this could be the reason; it's going to power everything, and you're going to need a lot if them.

Maybe. ?

[Skreech Verminking]

14 minutes ago, Waiyuren said:

There can't be too many left. Elves?

Well almost all elves with the exeptions of Daughters of Khaine and deepkins, are still left.

[ZaelART]

So... Isn't today the day that was mentioned in GW seminar as being a nice juicy information day?