Updating past Battletomes

[Naflem]

7 hours ago, TheWilddog said:

I can see perhaps a splash release of a character or something for the older tomes could come without a full battletome update. In the way that Malign Portents is essentially a splash release for Slaves to Darkness, Stormcast/Order, Moonclan Grots/Destruction and Nighthaunt.

That being said, I don't think we're due for any more v2 battletomes anytime soon. The only one I think may have some merit is Ironjawz.

 

[Gecktron]

2 hours ago, AthlorianStoners said:

Agreed on this, I think that of the factions that exist: 

There are those with a decent chance of getting expanded or getting their own Battletome - 

• Wanderers 
• Swifthawk Agents 
• Darkling Covens 

Those with a slim chance - 

• Order Draconis 
• Order Serpentis 
• Eldritch Council 
• Phoenix Temple 

And those with basically no chance - 

• Shadowblades 
• Lion Rangers

I agree with most of the List. Swifthawk Agents and Wanderers are likely to get an update. Strong themes and relatively recent kits.
I only think that the Darkling Covens are unlikely to get updated in their current form. They lack a strong and unique theme which GW can expand on. They are more of an catch basin for Dark Elven units too recent too phase out. 
In contras to the Phoenix Temple. They have two modern and good looking kits (Phoenix Guard and Frostheart/Flamepyre Phoenix) and a strong theme for the designers to work with. 

[jkav86]

I'd love to see some updates and changes to my flesh eaters. I guess first would be the ability to take Flayers and Horrors as battle line without the courtiers being generals. It feels weird my ghoul king on zombie dragon has to take a back seat there. I'd like to see usable command abilities for my hero's. The courtiers don't have any and currently they have to act as generals while the Ghoul kings are really underwhelming, the summoning they allow never seemed useful to me.  The Flayers ranged attacks would be more useful if they were brought more in line with the courtiers ranged attack, basicly just being a normal shooting attack. I know when I've used these guys I've almost never been able to hurt the opponent even if I were to roll sixes. Maybe even if it were changed in some other way, just so that it was useful! Lastly, I like delusions, just a change to feeding frenzy would be cool. I don't think its a very likely thing to happen and its something I tend to just forget. I don't think I'll see big changes though, there are other armies that don't even have books and I think a lot could be done on all this just in the next generals hand book. Here's hoping!  

[The Golem]

1 hour ago, syph0n said:

The Shadowblade faction is so odd. Newish plastic Dark Riders that could have comfortably fit into any other faction and Assassins wherever too. 

I have a feeling those models may be rolled into Malerion's faction in the future. There are hints in the GA Order book that the shadowblades are/were servants of Malerion. Maybe the Tenebrael Shard will tag along?

[Hypno]

I made a wish list for Ironjawz a while ago with basings from the lore in their book as well as some new cool ideas that I thought were original and unique 

general: spell lore, artifacts: totems, weapons, armour

Heros:

shaman on mawcrusher, Boss and warchanter on Goregruntas, ardboy warboss, Orkimedes(ork engineer makes ranged weapons better)

Battleline: Ardboar boys(ard boys on boars),  ard boys with spears and shields 

Artillery:

Iron-star cannon huge artillery piece that shoots a huge iron ball (iron star) that is a unit with its own rule when it shoots you roll on a table: 1 misfire suffer d3 mortals dot set up an iron star, 2 miss set up an ironstar within 2d6 of the target unit, 3 glancing hit target suffers 1 mortal wound set up an ironstar within 3 of the unit, 4-5 hit deals d3 mortal wounds to the target unit and set up an ironstar within 3” 6 explosive hit deal 6mortal wounds to the target unit but don’t set up an ironstar 

Behemoths:

feral mawcrusher, Iron waaaagh totem(scrap golem) 

Other units:

Rok boys(mentioned in a book as huge orks so covered in armour they struggle to keep up with the rest of the Ironjawz) , ardboys with crossbows or guns, some kind of chariot, Brute skybashers(mentioned in the book) brutes riding scrap hover boards(think tzanngor enlightened),  Iron star(can only be set up from abilities) can move over enemy units like it can fly when it does the target unit suffers d3 mortal wounds  and it can run retreat and charge in the Same turn 

 

Totals: 6 entirely new kits 

Alternate mawcrusher with shaman or feral

Big Goregrunta with Boss/ warchanter riding it 

Orkimides

Ard boar boys

Rok boys 

Iron star cannon

2 upgrade sprues, Brute skybasha boards and ardboy, spears and ranged weapon option 

Orruk warboss is is changed to Ardboy boss

[Hypno]

made some for Beastclaw raiders as well

general: mount traits, prayers for huskards rework everwinter table 

clubs/hackas for the stonehorns/thundertusk beast riders

Heros:  huskard on foot, huskard on mournfang, another buff hero type on foot and mournfang 

Battleline: Wolves/sabers ridden by grots 

Behemoths: Raiding rhionx bigger than mournfang not as big as TT /SH ridden by a horde of grots could have blista/ cannon on its back

Other units: another type of mounts for ogors

 

4 new kits

dual hero on foot

dual hero on mournfang 

Grots on wolves

Raiding rhinox 

[syph0n]

2 minutes ago, The Golem said:

I have a feeling those models may be rolled into Malerion's faction in the future. There are hints in the GA Order book that the shadowblades are/were servants of Malerion. Maybe the Tenebrael Shard will tag along?

I thought that was a possibility.  Tenebrael is a great looking model, but I've got a soft spot for Assassins anyway, I've got 3!

Like I said we've got plastic Dark Riders which are obviously also used for the DoK cav unit too. They clearly don't intend to make them disappear. 

[Naflem]

Seems like some of the past battletombs like Maggotkin of Nurgle could use some Path to Glory buffs to keep them competative with the newer tombs like Legion of Nagash. 

[PlasticCraic]

I'd like to see a supplement to Bonesplitterz.  Before you say "Woooaaahhh, they don't need a buff!", I'm not actually talking about a buff - I'm talking about a rebalancing away from Arrow Boyz spam.

Specifically it would be Spiderfang Grots.  They are probably not big enough to get their own full Battletome, and they were hit hard by the GH17 Destruction nerfs (artefacts etc not affecting mounts) - and let's be honest, they were hardly dominating before that.

From a lore perspective it works, because spiders don't have bones so there would be no reason for the Orruks to hunt the Arachnaroks (they have a chitinous exoskeleton, hence the Chitinous Legs attack).  

Give them all the relevant keywords and Prayers of the Spider God. 

As the slowest (?) Behemoth in the game, it doesn't exactly break the A-Rok to have Hand of Gork cast on it for example (the Bonesplitterz already have cavalry that can move further).  Since it can already ignore terrain, flying isn't that big of a boost to it.  And of course it means if you're putting the buffs on this melee unit, you're not putting them on the Arrow Boys!

You could also update the Pitched Battle profiles for Bonsplitterz at the same time.  Bump the Kunnin Rukk up further (220 points? 260 points? Go nuts!), and drop some of the other batallions.  The heroes are all overcosted...the Wardokk (with no warscroll spell) costs as much as the Loremaster, really?  And more than a Relictor?  And as good as the Maniak Weirdnob is, I hardly think he's as impactful (let alone as hard to kill) as a Bloodsecrator. 

Similarly the Savage Orruks are way too expensive.  1 attack, 4+4+, no rend, damage 1 is real bottom-feeder stuff.  Yes they have 2 wounds, but they also have a terrible armour save and low bravery, so they do nothing and aren't hard to shift.  Surely the worst unit in the game to get a price hike?  I'd like to see their cost come down (Morr Boys too), and see Arrow Boys lose Battleline status.

Also Big Stabbas are legit, but 2 attacks hitting on 4s for 100 points (that can easily be shot off the board) is too high.  Bring their cost down, as well as the wizards, and bring Spiders into the fold, and you might finally have a viable melee 'n' magic army.

It would be an opportunity to reinvigorate two armies at once.

[someone2040]

3 hours ago, Gecktron said:

I agree with most of the List. Swifthawk Agents and Wanderers are likely to get an update. Strong themes and relatively recent kits.
I only think that the Darkling Covens are unlikely to get updated in their current form. They lack a strong and unique theme which GW can expand on. They are more of an catch basin for Dark Elven units too recent too phase out. 
In contras to the Phoenix Temple. They have two modern and good looking kits (Phoenix Guard and Frostheart/Flamepyre Phoenix) and a strong theme for the designers to work with. 

Funny, I would argue the opposite (And actually made a blog post about some of the stuff below a while back 

Swifthawk Agents are a mess. They don't have a clear theme at all. Are they guardians of spires? Are they messengers? Are they infiltrators? Do they ride around on horses? or do they take to the skies? Or march around on foot? Do they wear feathers? Or have iconography of sea beasts?

They're literally just a hodge podge faction of all the left over High Elves that GW still wanted to sell. Mainly I think because the Chariot is a double kit with the White Lion Chariot and therefore they decided to chuck the Shadow Warriors into the mix. If it were up to me, I think Swifthawk would've been much better off as just a Spire Guard style list with the Skycutter, Spire Guard (Which have been re-cut from the Island of Blood previously), High Warden, Sky Warden, Sea Warden and Repeater Bolt Thrower kits. 

I think the other huge point against Swifthawks is that Spire of Dawn is now out of print, and GW have shown no indication so far of re-releasing the models in it again. That cuts out both the Spire Guard and Reavers models, as well as the High Warden which again leaves the faction as a hodge podge mess.

 

Darkling Covens on the other hand, do have a clear theme. It might not be the most interesting or unique, but at least it's clear and clean. They're the Dark Aelven witches hiding in the fringes of society enthralling Aelves to do their bidding. The aesthetics of the army all match up apart from perhaps the Sorcereress' themselves (Who perhaps would actually be better off in the Daughters of Khaine). 

Do I think it will get a battletome though? No not really. Not a stand alone tome anyway. I think a "Legion of Nagashining" could work well for the Darkling Covens, Order Serpentis and Shadowblades. All of these factions miss a little something, and aesthetically are very closely related. Combined together would give the Covens back some of the heavy hitters and speedy units they sorely lack.

[Kronos]

Both of these are purely selfish as they're what Im building for AoS roughly.

Monsters of Chaos

Kholek Suneater (or big named alt)/Dragon Ogre Shaggoth dual kit - big quadruped monster we know and love, similar to the dragon ogre kit but much much larger, with mane, armour and weapon options, all like the Greater Daemon Kits. Rules?

Throgg - King of Trolls with a good plastic model, something in between his old model and the Total war concept. Rules from what I remeber where fine.

Spell caster - ?.... 

Chaos Troggoths,Plastic, again Total war inpiration. Same rules as before.

Chaos Ogres, plastic kit or an upgrade to convert plastic ogor kits with armour, plates, heads weapons and mutations.

Add gargants and Thunderscorn to be part of Monsters of Chaos too.

 

Unit Entries would be

Kholek Suneater

Throgg

Spell Caster ?

Dragon Ogor Shaggoth

Chaos Troggoths

Dragon Ogors

Chaos Ogors

Chaos Gargants

Mutalith Vortex Beasts

Slaughterbrute

Jabberslythe

Chimera

Cockatrice

Warhounds.

[Kyriakin]

Yes, I was about the refute the Swifthawk Agent "theme" too.

For me, they feel like the most thrown-together faction in all of AoS. Three random units, then some Isle of Blood that needed shifting.

[PlasticCraic]

24 minutes ago, Kronos said:

Both of these are purely selfish as they're what Im building for AoS roughly.

Monsters of Chaos

 

You know what, I was thinking a similar thing for Destruction, along the lines of Beasts of Ghur

On top of their strong God books, Chaos has universal keyword synergy from the entire Slaves to Darkness faction, parts of the Everchosen book (notably Archie and the very powerful batallions), plus a couple of extras (Pestilens for Nurgle, access to all monsters in the entire GA via the Brayherd Shaman).  

Order has the Hurricanum and Lore Master, plus the sheer scope of Order units and Battleline options is massive for them.

We know what options Death has now with LoN.

Furthermore, 60 point Skinks and Marauders make their way into many competitive lists - Cheap Battleline is an important list building tool.

To give Destruction some GA-wide units with their own theme, I'd like to see a Beasts of Ghur book come out.  Kind of their answer to Slaves to Darkness, but themed specifically for Destruction.  So things like Troggoths, Gargants, and various monsters of Destruction (plus a couple of weird and wonderful new high Fantasy kits) would get options for keywords.  The cheap battleline could either be a new low-grade critter, or the option to take 10 Grots for 50 points with keywords.

The idea would be that you can build it as its own army, but its principal use is to give list building tools to the rest of the GA.  I think it would be cool, thematic and a great tool to work with for the whole faction. 

I know it's not gonna happen, but we're wishlisting, right?  

[Kirjava13]

Oh man, reading these wishlists gives me energy. I don't know why, but I really enjoy it. More please, if anyone has any more ideas! I'm thinking about a Skryre update again.

[Guest]

I'd love to see new models for FEC, but I won't hold my breath. We're still in a position where only a tiny fraction of the 60 factions in the game have even had one battletome, let alone a second. With so many factions awaiting a battletome, and with GW clearly wanting to release entirely new factions too, hoping for GW to devote resources to a second battletome for these pretty minor factions (even as an exercise in speculation and wish listing) seems like a waste of time.

As a FEC collector, I feel privileged to even have one battletome and a set of allegiance abilities. I don't need or expect any more than that.

[Kirjava13]

You must be fun at parties.

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, Kirjava13 said:

You must be fun at parties.

Me? Hey, come on, my post was positive but realistic.

And actually, I am fun at parties. My dancing alone is quality entertainment for all concerned.

[Gecktron]

10 hours ago, Kyriakin said:

Yes, I was about the refute the Swifthawk Agent "theme" too.

For me, they feel like the most thrown-together faction in all of AoS. Three random units, then some Isle of Blood that needed shifting.

 

11 hours ago, someone2040 said:

 

Swifthawk Agents are a mess. They don't have a clear theme at all. Are they guardians of spires? Are they messengers? Are they infiltrators? Do they ride around on horses? or do they take to the skies? Or march around on foot? Do they wear feathers? Or have iconography of sea beasts?

They're literally just a hodge podge faction of all the left over High Elves that GW still wanted to sell. Mainly I think because the Chariot is a double kit with the White Lion Chariot and therefore they decided to chuck the Shadow Warriors into the mix. If it were up to me, I think Swifthawk would've been much better off as just a Spire Guard style list with the Skycutter, Spire Guard (Which have been re-cut from the Island of Blood previously), High Warden, Sky Warden, Sea Warden and Repeater Bolt Thrower kits. 

I think the other huge point against Swifthawks is that Spire of Dawn is now out of print, and GW have shown no indication so far of re-releasing the models in it again. That cuts out both the Spire Guard and Reavers models, as well as the High Warden which again leaves the faction as a hodge podge mess.

 

Darkling Covens on the other hand, do have a clear theme. It might not be the most interesting or unique, but at least it's clear and clean. They're the Dark Aelven witches hiding in the fringes of society enthralling Aelves to do their bidding. The aesthetics of the army all match up apart from perhaps the Sorcereress' themselves (Who perhaps would actually be better off in the Daughters of Khaine). 

Do I think it will get a battletome though? No not really. Not a stand alone tome anyway. I think a "Legion of Nagashining" could work well for the Darkling Covens, Order Serpentis and Shadowblades. All of these factions miss a little something, and aesthetically are very closely related. Combined together would give the Covens back some of the heavy hitters and speedy units they sorely lack.

 

Swifthawks have a good number of themes to build on. Their core thing is a combination of close combat and bows (Shadow Warriors, Spire Guard, Chariots, Reavers, Sky cutters) they all have bows and better close combat weapons than dedicated ranged units.
Their second theme is speed (with only the spire guard being slow). This combines with their heavy use of animals. Eagles, horses and griffins are all part of the Swifthawks. 

These three themes can be found in most Swifthawk units. They have lots of potential to expand on. For example a unit not unlike the old Wood Elven Hawk Riders would be easy to add. Or just add more Sky chariots.

What I wanted to say with the Darkling Covens is not that their aren't good and coherent looking models, but that they lack a unique selling point. Something that makes them stand out from the old Druchii armies. They inherited the relatively boring core troops. Daughters of Khaine, Sylvaneth, Ironjawz took a specialized/unique unit (Witch Aelfs, Dryades, 'Ard boyz) and made them the core of the new army. Darkling Covens are similar in this regard to the Free Guild. They are mostly made of old core units, the interesting units have all become their own faction. They lack a theme to expand on. The only thing I can think of right now is to double down on the magic but that would infringe on the eldritch council in my opinion. 

I dont want to make it look like I hate on the Darkling Covens. Im in the same boat with my Free People. I just think that GW will focus first on more visually interesting armies.

[PJetski]

Seraphon

• Spell Lore for SLANN
• Artifacts for Slann: New Constellations
• Prayers for SKINK PRIEST and TROGLODON
• Artifact tables for SKINK, and SAURUS
• Skink Chief riding a Terradon warscroll
• Skink Chief riding a Stegadon warscroll
• Saurus Guard go from 1 wound each to 2 wounds each (points adjusted accordingly)
• Kroxigor hero (Nakai) warscroll

Stormcast

• Staunch Defender can only be used once per game, lasting until your next hero phase
• Protectors, Retributors, and Decimators have a 3+ save instead of 4+
• Dracothian Guard are Battleline if your general is a Lord-Celestant on Stardrake
• Palladors are Battleline if a Lord-Aquilor is your general
• Prosecutors are Battleline
• Remove Stormhost Battalions, add their bonuses effects as a "Chapter Tactic" battle trait
• New ability for Knight-Azyros: Add 1 to Scions of the Storm roll. If you do, that unit must enter play wholly within 9" of the Azyros (and still more than 9" from any enemies)

[Aginor]

As for the Seraphon: With some sort of replenishment rule Saurus Warriors could actually be scary again.

I can totally imagine how a rule similar to Death would work well. Maybe with the Slann or an EotG acting as the "grave sites", or some "Azyr meteor impact site" in case the army doesn't have a Slann.

Spell Lore is a must. Slann are among the most powerful wizards in the universe and all they have to choose from are such few spells.

Return of the Skink Chief! Be it on foot or on a mount, I don't care.

Maybe one new model? A big feathered snake maybe?

Guards need either two wounds or some protection from mortal wounds.

A Skink Priest Prayer list would be nice as well.

Also please: fix the useless 14-17 on the Engine of the Gods.

 

But in fact I'd be pretty happy if they just gave us Spell Lore or maybe fixed summoning. We are a halfway strong, versatile army. Others have it much worse.

[Inqy]

On Darkling  Covens: At this point it’s pretty much a given that Malerion is going to get a faction at some point. It could be an expanded DC with a visual makeover ala DoK or it could be a completely new faction. If it’s the latter then DC will probably never get a Tome.

[PJetski]

18 minutes ago, Aginor said:

Also please: fix the useless 14-17 on the Engine of the Gods.

You might be using this ability wrong. Summoning any Seraphon unit into play in the hero phase and with no restriction on moving in the movement phase is very strong.

[Aginor]

55 minutes ago, PJetski said:

You might be using this ability wrong. Summoning any Seraphon unit into play in the hero phase and with no restriction on moving in the movement phase is very strong.

I am not using it at all. I don't have spare points so whenever I roll that result the EotG does nothing at all.

That summon would maybe be worth it if it was something to plan with. Not reliablr though so.... yeah. Useless for me as I want to plan my tactics ahead.

[PJetski]

I usually have at least 160 in reserve when I play an EOTG + Slann because you can choose to summon in situational units like Razordons, Salamanders, Starpriest, Kroxigors, etc. Being able to move Salamanders into firing range, Razordons into range for their Rend-1 attacks, or Kroxigors into a 3" charge is a brilliant strategy.

Engine is very reliable if you have a Slann and Curse of Fates. 

Just because you're not using an ability doesn't mean it's broken.

[Aginor]

Well I guess we disagree there then. The reason why I don't use the ability is that it is not reliable enough to plan a strategy around it which is my definition of useless as the points are better spent otherwise.

I see it this way:

Regardless of the mission spending the points right away or using a regular summon is more useful than hoping for that EotG result.