Lets Chat: Idoneth Deepkin

[Richelieu]

15 hours ago, Aezeal said:

Hey as a non idoneth player I'm wondering if you also feel their elite swordsmen (well they are apparently basic for you.. but elite infantry for most other armies) are a bit underpriced compared to others... or is that incorrect?

Whenever you compare unit prices it must be in context of the army to which it belongs.  Are there other units filling its role?  What buffs can be applied and how much do they cost? Etc.  So while in a vacuum you are correct, because some other units in the army are conservatively pointed and there are few other means of significant damage in the army, and because they are on 32mm bases and have a 1" reach, 140 points is the aggressive choice and 160 would have been conservative.  

[BillyOcean]

11 hours ago, Caladancid said:

I’ve been trying to understand the allopex dislike. A lot of good points made about army role, but do we really think that the allopex should be the same cost as a Lion Chariot (100 pts). I mean just take a look at other units like that and plz help me understand how GW could have costed the shark chariot at less than 120. Maybe 140 is too high (though I’m not sure of it), but 80 or 100 is a bit crazy. 

A few things:

Lets be clear, I'm not saying never take a  shark. In friendly games and club games adding a shark is not going to immediately make your list bad, because theres plenty of great units to pick up the slack. I plan to run one myself in friendly games because its straight-up the coolest model I've ever seen.

So, all of my previous comments have been restricted to thinking about building the most competitive list for a tournament. I stand by my position that I see no place for an Allopex in those lists. First, I don't think lion chariots and similar units (scourgerunner, drakespawn chariot, skycutter etc) are an appropriate comparison for competitive play, because in my humble opinion those units are garbage and there is always somewhere better to spend the points. The fact we are making that comparison supports my point: if the goal was to make another lion chariot that doesn't show up in competitive lists, i think we succeeded. 

Second, the issue of battlefield role is an important one. If we are thinking of the shark as a mobile melee damage dealer (which is how the scroll reads) then Morsarr are the appropriate comparison and are just straight up better on a points-to-points basis. Initially I was excited about the shark because I assumed it would fill the role of mobile ranged support, in which case it would not be competing with other units in the army. The comparison I had in mind would be something like a waywatcher in a mixed order or wanderers list, meaning i was hoping to see a gun with 6 shots/rend -1 or 3 shots/rend -1/dmg 2. With that capability I would see them as a competitive choice at 140, even if the combat attacks were toned down a little (4 fin attacks could go to 2, given that it only has 2 fins), because it would fill a very different battlefield role.

But given that the warscroll is locked in, and it competes directly with other units for battlefield role, we need to be provided a good reason to take it over the other choices. A 100pt price tag would be such a reason, which is why I floated it. 80pts might be a little aggressive, I don't know yet.

So, I apologize if I've come across overly negative on the shark. Its a stellar sculpt and GW will sell one to me on that basis alone. But if we are going to use this thread to (among other things) talk competitive lists and tournament tactics for our new favorite army, I think its important to be upfront about its limitations. And to me, an Allopex at 140pts is just a clear no-go in my tournament list. I know some people will say its crazy to say that without playing a single game or testing it, but I've been playing list-building games for a long long time, and sometimes you can just tell based on rules and cost alone. But thats just like my opinion.

 

[Austin]

16 minutes ago, BillyOcean said:

A few things:

Lets be clear, I'm not saying never take a  shark. In friendly games and club games adding a shark is not going to immediately make your list bad, because theres plenty of great units to pick up the slack. I plan to run one myself in friendly games because its straight-up the coolest model I've ever seen.

So, all of my previous comments have been restricted to thinking about building the most competitive list for a tournament. I stand by my position that I see no place for an Allopex in those lists. First, I don't think lion chariots and similar units (scourgerunner, drakespawn chariot, skycutter etc) are an appropriate comparison for competitive play, because in my humble opinion those units are garbage and there is always somewhere better to spend the points. The fact we are making that comparison supports my point: if the goal was to make another lion chariot that doesn't show up in competitive lists, i think we succeeded. 

Second, the issue of battlefield role is an important one. If we are thinking of the shark as a mobile melee damage dealer (which is how the scroll reads) then Morsarr are the appropriate comparison and are just straight up better on a points-to-points basis. Initially I was excited about the shark because I assumed it would fill the role of mobile ranged support, in which case it would not be competing with other units in the army. The comparison I had in mind would be something like a waywatcher in a mixed order or wanderers list, meaning i was hoping to see a gun with 6 shots/rend -1 or 3 shots/rend -1/dmg 2. With that capability I would see them as a competitive choice at 140, even if the combat attacks were toned down a little (4 fin attacks could go to 2, given that it only has 2 fins), because it would fill a very different battlefield role.

But given that the warscroll is locked in, and it competes directly with other units for battlefield role, we need to be provided a good reason to take it over the other choices. A 100pt price tag would be such a reason, which is why I floated it. 80pts might be a little aggressive, I don't know yet.

So, I apologize if I've come across overly negative on the shark. Its a stellar sculpt and GW will sell one to me on that basis alone. But if we are going to use this thread to (among other things) talk competitive lists and tournament tactics for our new favorite army, I think its important to be upfront about its limitations. And to me, an Allopex at 140pts is just a clear no-go in my tournament list. I know some people will say its crazy to say that without playing a single game or testing it, but I've been playing list-building games for a long long time, and sometimes you can just tell based on rules and cost alone. But thats just like my opinion.

 

Great response. I’m gonna try to make the allopex work (obv) but those are very valid points. I guess it’s a tough spot for GW. I do see the allopex as a chariot type model, and what do you do when you already have chariots that generally cost 100 and then you add flying, more wounds, more rend, and more attacks, plus better faction abilities? They are sort of stuck. 

That being said, as I have been making some rough lists, points go quickly so far. It will take some testing for sure to find a spot, and it may be that outside a warscroll battalion we don’t see these guys much. 

[Hoseman]

I would love to see some kind of waywatcher or Wayfinder in this army... but it seems like they will not have.

So I'm waiting to see the full warscroll of reavers

[Gurtyel]

Question: 

The battalion alliance of wood and sea lets the units in said battalion including the sylvaneth ones benefit from the tides of death ability. 

The mínimum cost to Bring said battalion is 1420 pts. If i want to complete a 2000 pts army with more idk do the extra units get to benefit from the allegiance abilities as they would normally do or does the army no longer qualify as an allegiance IDK one anymore?

[David Griffin]

Looking at the Idoneth, one of my first impressions is that they don't seem to have a way to reliably reach out and shoot an opponent's back line buffing heroes (Blood Secrators, Castellants, Khemists, etc.). 

To me, allies are probably going to be the best option for this role. The options that immediately spring to mind are:

• Judicators
• Knight-Venator
• Longstrikes (don't personally think they're very points efficient)
• Waywatcher
• Kurnoth Hunters with Bows (hoping they get a slight points drop in GHB'18)

Any others come to mind?

[mmimzie]

11 minutes ago, Gurtyel said:

Question: 

The battalion alliance of wood and sea lets the units in said battalion including the sylvaneth ones benefit from the tides of death ability. 

The mínimum cost to Bring said battalion is 1420 pts. If i want to complete a 2000 pts army with more idk do the extra units get to benefit from the allegiance abilities as they would normally do or does the army no longer qualify as an allegiance IDK one anymore?

Only if the units you add are used to make the units in the battalion bigger. That said there is an enclave thst literally does the same thing. 

[Gurtyel]

3 minutes ago, mmimzie said:

Only if the units you add are used to make the units in the battalion bigger. That said there is an enclave thst literally does the same thing. 

Sadly, ionranch wont let me fit my wife's sylvaneth start collecting in a 2000 army list either since it amounts to 420 pts. Just 20 pts oh well, guess it was too much to ask for.

[Drofnum]

Anyone see how the game went today on WHTV?  From what i caught the KO player had a pretty non-competitive list so it may not be the best game to compare with.

[Zhorphorus]

2 hours ago, David Griffin said:

Looking at the Idoneth, one of my first impressions is that they don't seem to have a way to reliably reach out and shoot an opponent's back line buffing heroes (Blood Secrators, Castellants, Khemists, etc.). 

To me, allies are probably going to be the best option for this role. The options that immediately spring to mind are:

• Judicators
• Knight-Venator
• Longstrikes (don't personally think they're very points efficient)
• Waywatcher
• Kurnoth Hunters with Bows (hoping they get a slight points drop in GHB'18)

Any others come to mind?

Prime might be nice too

[DantePQ]

Problem with allies is that Idoneth will be very tight on points and even tough Ionarch make allies use Tides ability units like Longstrikes of Kurnthos won't benefit from it much.  I'd rather take 5-10 Heartrenders who can handle some character sniping, can deepstrike and will benefit from Tides ability also they cost like 160 for two units or one big. 

[Hoseman]

1 hour ago, DantePQ said:

Problem with allies is that Idoneth will be very tight on points and even tough Ionarch make allies use Tides ability units like Longstrikes of Kurnthos won't benefit from it much.  I'd rather take 5-10 Heartrenders who can handle some character sniping, can deepstrike and will benefit from Tides ability also they cost like 160 for two units or one big. 

I have looked for something similar but seems heartrenders are the best option. They have a great mobility that is logical because of that short range. I don't have anything of DoK so don't know if I will take them. Hope to see something nice on reavers abilities, I don't like that 4+ and no rend but those models are awesome... 

With the run and shoot on turn 2 and retreat and shoot on 4 we can make something fun but those stats... meh

[Undeadly]

Honestly, I don't see much of a point in bringing allies in a IDK list; your basically putting a giant bullseye on them, seeing as how they don't benefit from the Forgotten Nightmares ability. That means that any allies taken need to be either super long ranged or super survivable.

[mhsellwood]

8 hours ago, BillyOcean said:

A few things:

Lets be clear, I'm not saying never take a  shark. In friendly games and club games adding a shark is not going to immediately make your list bad, because theres plenty of great units to pick up the slack. I plan to run one myself in friendly games because its straight-up the coolest model I've ever seen.

So, all of my previous comments have been restricted to thinking about building the most competitive list for a tournament. I stand by my position that I see no place for an Allopex in those lists. First, I don't think lion chariots and similar units (scourgerunner, drakespawn chariot, skycutter etc) are an appropriate comparison for competitive play, because in my humble opinion those units are garbage and there is always somewhere better to spend the points. The fact we are making that comparison supports my point: if the goal was to make another lion chariot that doesn't show up in competitive lists, i think we succeeded. 

Second, the issue of battlefield role is an important one. If we are thinking of the shark as a mobile melee damage dealer (which is how the scroll reads) then Morsarr are the appropriate comparison and are just straight up better on a points-to-points basis. Initially I was excited about the shark because I assumed it would fill the role of mobile ranged support, in which case it would not be competing with other units in the army. The comparison I had in mind would be something like a waywatcher in a mixed order or wanderers list, meaning i was hoping to see a gun with 6 shots/rend -1 or 3 shots/rend -1/dmg 2. With that capability I would see them as a competitive choice at 140, even if the combat attacks were toned down a little (4 fin attacks could go to 2, given that it only has 2 fins), because it would fill a very different battlefield role.

But given that the warscroll is locked in, and it competes directly with other units for battlefield role, we need to be provided a good reason to take it over the other choices. A 100pt price tag would be such a reason, which is why I floated it. 80pts might be a little aggressive, I don't know yet.

So, I apologize if I've come across overly negative on the shark. Its a stellar sculpt and GW will sell one to me on that basis alone. But if we are going to use this thread to (among other things) talk competitive lists and tournament tactics for our new favorite army, I think its important to be upfront about its limitations. And to me, an Allopex at 140pts is just a clear no-go in my tournament list. I know some people will say its crazy to say that without playing a single game or testing it, but I've been playing list-building games for a long long time, and sometimes you can just tell based on rules and cost alone. But thats just like my opinion.

 

I think your point about it being a very cool model deserves reiterating, and that although it probably is not the best in game choice it still does something.

For me, looking at the model I thought we would have firepower similar to a one person, short ranged reaper (so 6 shots 4+/3+/-1/1) and good close combat. This would have given it a niche in the army as they would provide relatively cheap quick moving firepower that is not going to collapse when looked at sideways. For that I would be happy to pay 100 points, noting that the reaper would be twice the firepower at a longer range with some obvious weaknesses for 120 points. Problem with the current warscroll is that it does not particularly bring anything very different from getting say a unit of Morsarr as the shooting is not enough to call it a gunboat and the close combat is not so good as to justify it being more fragile than the Morsarr (in fact I think the allopex is worse in close combat?).

I could see a spot in the army for a single allopex though to open the Leviadon focussed battalion, but not sure how potent the battalion is at yet.

In general though, it is also worth noting that chariots as a rule very rarely appear in top table lists no matter the army. The issue with them in general is that their damage output per point is generally OK at best and whatever advantages there are in being a single model, within the context of a matched play environment where controlling objectives is utterly critical and unit size is an important component of this... So what army role do they serve? Discussion about how to fix chariots and similar single model not quite a monster not quite a character units though is definitely a broader question than that of how the allopex should be costed.

As you say though, that is just, like, my opinion man.

[mmimzie]

36 minutes ago, Undeadly said:

Honestly, I don't see much of a point in bringing allies in a IDK list; your basically putting a giant bullseye on them, seeing as how they don't benefit from the Forgotten Nightmares ability. That means that any allies taken need to be either super long ranged or super survivable.

I mean unless you want the allies to have a bulleye on them, but honestly seems like defensive eels are already great at taking enemy fire. So it's kind of like, why both with the allies. That and becuase as has been said here multiple times the points are pretty tight for what seems to be good in IDK. 

 

18 minutes ago, mhsellwood said:

I think your point about it being a very cool model deserves reiterating, and that although it probably is not the best in game choice it still does something.

For me, looking at the model I thought we would have firepower similar to a one person, short ranged reaper (so 6 shots 4+/3+/-1/1) and good close combat. This would have given it a niche in the army as they would provide relatively cheap quick moving firepower that is not going to collapse when looked at sideways. For that I would be happy to pay 100 points, noting that the reaper would be twice the firepower at a longer range with some obvious weaknesses for 120 points. Problem with the current warscroll is that it does not particularly bring anything very different from getting say a unit of Morsarr as the shooting is not enough to call it a gunboat and the close combat is not so good as to justify it being more fragile than the Morsarr (in fact I think the allopex is worse in close combat?).

I could see a spot in the army for a single allopex though to open the Leviadon focussed battalion, but not sure how potent the battalion is at yet.

In general though, it is also worth noting that chariots as a rule very rarely appear in top table lists no matter the army. The issue with them in general is that their damage output per point is generally OK at best and whatever advantages there are in being a single model, within the context of a matched play environment where controlling objectives is utterly critical and unit size is an important component of this... So what army role do they serve? Discussion about how to fix chariots and similar single model not quite a monster not quite a character units though is definitely a broader question than that of how the allopex should be costed.

As you say though, that is just, like, my opinion man.

Yes the damae on the allopex is lower than pretty much anything else we can bring??? It's lower than the turtles damage out put for the pts as far as i understand. Atleast that's what my member tells me and i don't feel like wipping out my calculator again. 

When looking at list building i still think you'll be holding stuff at bay best you can with defensive eels, and then banking on turn 3 to cripple your opponent with 2 big clutch charging units. 

The leviadon focussed battalion does look kind of cool, but i think it's only a single roll per phase??? which is really limited and not all that powerful??? So i don't think an allopex is worth all that much, even more so considering you also have to spend points on the battalions. Though against no i'm sure hwo the reroll works is it a single die?? or is it for that whole 1 thing. For instance do i get to reroll my entire to wound roll?? or just one die?? 


Edit: on the larger concern of how comeptive. I think the main difficult match ups would be Vulkites and Change host. Change host being tough because it's like fighting glue, and they get stuck in really quick. I think change host is an arguement for eel because atleast they'd get one good charge off if you keep them abit back maybe?? The thralls ican see being locked into combats where they don't get enough swings in to really get anywhere. Not to mention the change host low drop numbers. Then Vulkites are hard because they are darn tough to kill 3 units of them. I can see killing 2 units of vulkites, but that third squad is just critical mass. That said defensive eels if able to lock the culkites up in an unfavorible position. Might buy you the time you need.  

[mhsellwood]

41 minutes ago, mmimzie said:

Yes the damae on the allopex is lower than pretty much anything else we can bring??? It's lower than the turtles damage out put for the pts as far as i understand. Atleast that's what my member tells me and i don't feel like wipping out my calculator again. 

The leviadon focussed battalion does look kind of cool, but i think it's only a single roll per phase??? which is really limited and not all that powerful??? So i don't think an allopex is worth all that much, even more so considering you also have to spend points on the battalions. Though against no i'm sure hwo the reroll works is it a single die?? or is it for that whole 1 thing. For instance do i get to reroll my entire to wound roll?? or just one die?? 
 

From my calculations it is slightly better damage output than the Leviadon - allopex does 3.4 wounds vs 4+ save, so 41 points per wound inflicted, leviadon does 7.95 against the same target for 48 points per wound inflicted. The Leviadon though has the big advantage of the cover save bubble which makes up a fair portion of its appeal.

In terms of the battalion, not sure. I know it is a re-roll but I don't know if it is one re-roll per phase for the whole battalion, or one re-roll per unit, or anything really! Will have to see on Saturday

[someone2040]

9 hours ago, BillyOcean said:

So, all of my previous comments have been restricted to thinking about building the most competitive list for a tournament. I stand by my position that I see no place for an Allopex in those lists. First, I don't think lion chariots and similar units (scourgerunner, drakespawn chariot, skycutter etc) are an appropriate comparison for competitive play, because in my humble opinion those units are garbage and there is always somewhere better to spend the points. The fact we are making that comparison supports my point: if the goal was to make another lion chariot that doesn't show up in competitive lists, i think we succeeded. 

I think it's worth pointing out, that GW need to be careful when pointing units.

All of those units may not see play, but there may be a variety of reasons why they don't see play. First and foremost being, they're in factions which aren't competitive. That being said, I'd probably argue they probably are a little overpriced (Although it's hard to judge how much 'movement' should really cost in this game).

But ultimately, I guess the problem is GW is damned if they do damned if they don't. The allopex IMO is clearly better than most of the chariots you listed. So if it was priced lower or even the same price as them, then arguably that's points creep right there regardless of the internal balance.

If I were to quickly judge the Allopex though. It like many units that do multiple things, suffers from being this kinda jack of all trades. The fact that it has a shooting attack causes it to suffer, because now it has a case of mixed identity. Is it a weapons playtform? Is it a combat unit? Well, it's a bit of both and master of none. 

With that being said, it does feel a bit overcosted (although, can't see it's special rules). I'd expect 120 points (same as the Skycutter) would be fairer. Especially if all the chariot-like models then dropped another 10-20 points in GHB2018.

[ianob]

I read the book cover to cover today and analysed it for a good few hours. 

My feeling competitively is that it’s a good army, has great matchups vs some of the best lists out there right now, but is going to struggle with attrition/tough armies and anything with even a half decent MW output. But it has everything it needs to win events.

its got some good tricks it can pull with deep striking units or making nigh-guaranteed T1 charges, or rezzing lots of Thralls in a way that makes undead look like amateurs, but they also have downsides to balance them.

Really I think that the only dumb thing in the book is the eels and I think we’ll see a lot of eel based armies with the named king, an eidolon, and a mixture of support pieces.

Thralls being on 32mm bases is what hurts this army’s diversity the most. They are straight up undercosted until you factor that.

Btw, on the above hot topic of Allopexes... the maths put them as worse than Morrsarr Guard at basically everything, especially when you factor in the king buffs. They are completely fine at 140 points though, maybe they could have been 120 but suggesting 100 is insane. The eels are just undercosted.

Also I’d be remiss to mention that as a Death player, in realy annoyed that Idoneth debuffs affect shooting as well as melee and Idoneth unrendables can be buffed. Thanks rules consistency.

We’re going to see a lot of this army on competitive tables, anyway. The speed, wound/point efficiency, toughness, damage output, and basically everything that eels do is a perfect competitive storm for a good player to have everything they need to win. Armywide rerolls to everything, huge bravery bubbles, and solid amount of rend add a lot of consistency. The trouble the army causes to shooting, the best thing in AoS for the most part. Everything is here for this army to be great, but it has enough weaknesses to not feel broken.

[Sactownbri]

9 hours ago, Drofnum said:

Anyone see how the game went today on WHTV?  From what i caught the KO player had a pretty non-competitive list so it may not be the best game to compare with.

Ceri and Ron played .  It was the KO clown car. He miss positioned and Ceri played very smart. The Leviadon killed the Gunhauler, Ironclad and and Admiral. The Guard really messed with the KO shooting thanks to forgotten enemy. Plus the bad KO placement got the Ironclad trapped and unable to deploy the last arkanaught squad. Emergency disembark was deadly. Overall it was a pretty good match up and showed how hard ID can’t hit and how their rules can completely swing a battle.

[Sactownbri]

2 hours ago, ianob said:

 Btw, on the above hot topic of Allopexes... the maths put them as worse than Morrsarr Guard at basically everything, especially when you factor in the king buffs. They are completely fine at 140 points though, maybe they could have been 120 but suggesting 100 is insane. The eels are just undercosted.

I feel like we are all missing something on the Allopex.  Maybe this was the way GW balanced the army? Give them a sad chariot like everyone else? I only wish it had a rend on its bite, then I wouldn’t care at all. By the way, what does the net launcher do? That’s the only rule I haven’t been able to find.

[hellalugosi]

any word on confirmed color schemes for each enclave?

[mmimzie]

4 hours ago, mhsellwood said:

From my calculations it is slightly better damage output than the Leviadon - allopex does 3.4 wounds vs 4+ save, so 41 points per wound inflicted, leviadon does 7.95 against the same target for 48 points per wound inflicted. The Leviadon though has the big advantage of the cover save bubble which makes up a fair portion of its appeal.

In terms of the battalion, not sure. I know it is a re-roll but I don't know if it is one re-roll per phase for the whole battalion, or one re-roll per unit, or anything really! Will have to see on Saturday

Yeah your math fairly matches up to mine.  though we get similar but different numbers.

 

1 minute ago, Sactownbri said:

I feel like we are all missing something on the Allopex.  Maybe this was the way GW balanced the army? Give them a sad chariot like everyone else? I only wish it had a rend on its bite, then I wouldn’t care at all. By the way, what does the net launcher do? That’s the only rule I haven’t been able to find.

It doesn't do anything <.<. Its just a different weapon that's straith up worse than the other option saddly. As i said the allopex in one light is a good character hunter in a melee based force due to fly and small base, but out side of that it's hard to see it.  The problem mostly with the allopex though is that it need a special ability to give it a use out side of jsut competing with thralls and offensive eels... a role in which currently they are heavily out classed. 

 

 

3 hours ago, ianob said:

 

We’re going to see a lot of this army on competitive tables, anyway. The speed, wound/point efficiency, toughness, damage output, and basically everything that eels do is a perfect competitive storm for a good player to have everything they need to win. Armywide rerolls to everything, huge bravery bubbles, and solid amount of rend add a lot of consistency. The trouble the army causes to shooting, the best thing in AoS for the most part. Everything is here for this army to be great, but it has enough weaknesses to not feel broken.

Yeah i pretty much agree with this. Though to some extent one large unit of thralls with a healer is pretty in line with meta armies like change host and vulkites where you just sort of slog it our with lots of models that take an unreasonable amount of time to deal with. 

The eels though. SO the defensive eels make a good back bone. With optional arcane shield protection, as arcane shield is only as good as your list being able to  take a unit of 6 or 9 defensive eels, and put them up front.  Offensive eels being wickedly powerful turn 3 with the king. 
 

So then onto the support pieces??? What support pieces do we use????
The soul scryer is nice as it takes away the need to protect the offensive eels or king as much, but it limits what targets you can hit, and where you can get your eels to go. It also gives alpha strike potential, but feel weird??? DO you alpha strike with offensive eels giving your opponent the chance to surround and kill them, or do you alpha with defensive eels, and risk having fur defensive units on the table to protect your offensive eels.

 The turtle is expensive but it is army wide durability if your willing to keep your army owithin a 24" bubble.  Let alone his own body can be contributed to the cause of protecting your important pieces??  The turtle being difference between 6 or 9 defensive eels, but makes the eels you do have the table that much more powerful. I also believe the turtle can also recieve the kings blessing as another last ditch unit, and the turtle get a decently large boost from the kings buffs. 

Aspect of the sea is I think is pretty much auto take in my book?? just all start support unit. Making a massive difference in the DoK match letting you signifigantly our bravery them. Then the  _1 to hit aspect has lots of usefulness against different match up, but isn't so useful against KO tanks to thier boat cover making them un stargetable while inside??? 

[mhsellwood]

2 hours ago, Sactownbri said:

I feel like we are all missing something on the Allopex.  Maybe this was the way GW balanced the army? Give them a sad chariot like everyone else? I only wish it had a rend on its bite, then I wouldn’t care at all. By the way, what does the net launcher do? That’s the only rule I haven’t been able to find.

The Allopexes bite is at -2 rend. The net launcher gets an 18" range and is 1 attack 3+/3+/-/3 damage.

[mmimzie]

Yeah and since damage*atk is interchangeable if the to hit and to wound are the same. It basicly just makes the harpoon thing better because it has longer range.

[Jaepic]

Saw the free art card that comes with the pre-order today. It has 1/5 written on the back so I’m guessing the release will be 5 weeks with an free pre order art card every week.