Lets Chat: Legions of Nagash

[Killax]

Another cool interaction is the Ambush + Summon options for Legion of Night. As both occur at the end of the Movement phase it's up to the player to resolve them how they like.
This can be quite interesting as it circumvents even more movement issues Necromancers and such might have.

Lots of tactical depth here.

A lot of my list sketches point towards double Vampire Lords, likely one on Zombie Dragon, double Necromancers for sure.
I tend to like my hordes A LOT in this edition and I think 2x 40 Skeleton Warriors are pretty much a guarantee. So are double Terrorgheist/Zombie Dragon... Can't decide yet which one of the two is better. The Morghast Harbingers are an amazing choice too, especially for Grand Host of Nagash, it's a pitty they can't be put in Ambush there.

So yeah as discussed/hinted/designed, we see that pretty much the most potent Legions in terms of tactical depth have slightly weaker Artefacts (at least is the case for Legion of Night). At the same time the power for Legion of Blood is better as initial thought. It's really going to be expensive but Prince's Battalion is a work of art too... The two common nominaters with good allround buffs and good Artefacts so far are really Grand Host of Nagash and Legion of Sacrement  

 

[someone2040]

20 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

You should really consider Prince Vhordrai instead of the VLoZD. For 40 pts more you get massively more killing power.

Yeah, I think Vhordrai is a steal outside Legion of Blood as he basically has the +1 attack built into his profile. Then you also get the additional rend on the deathlance which is pretty huge, and his breath weapon is likely just better overall most of the time. His spell I reckon is also a ton better (mainly to buff himself).

That being said, the lack of command trait and artefact may mean you can build a VL on ZD for a more specific purpose than Vhordrai. 

I think overall the meta will influence whether Vhordrai or the vanilla Lord on Zombie Dragon is better. Mainly how much shooting is available, as the fact that most Legions have acccess to shooting protection is super useful on large monsters (See unkillable Stardrakes).

[Killax]

Stuff that personally does excite me a lot:

Grand Host of Nagash Command Trait:
5. Re-roll failed charge rolls for Deathrattle and Morghast units within 9", which just synergizes extremely well with summonning offcourse.
6. Add +1 attack to all friendly Deathrattle units within 6".
Either of these Command Traits seem amazing on any Vampire Lord really, yeah even on foot  
 Artefacts:
2. Substract 1 for wound rolls by enemies within 6.
6. Once per battle Terrorgheist Shriek.

Legion of Blood Command Trait:
3. Re-roll for failed charges on Soulblight within 9".
5. Hit rolls of 6 turn directly into Mortal Wounds.
Artefacts:
1. As mentioned before the 5+ thake over attack.
3. Once per battle pick enemy hero within 3" in beginning of combat phase, that hero cannot pile in, attack or use abilities.

Legion of Sacrement Command trait:
1. Re-roll failed charges for Death units within 6"... Which is everything, nice!  
4. All friendly Death units may make a move (no run) in the hero phase within 6"  
6. General obtain's Arkhan the Black's Command Ability.
Artefacts:
2. -2 on shooting phase attacks for models that are further as 8" away, -1 on within 8" that target the bearer.
4. 4++ for shooting attacks.

Legion of Night:
- No Command Traits leaked.
Artefacts:
5. Stand still, add 2 to all casting rolls for friendly Legion of Night Wizard casting spells.

Lores of Death
1 and 6 are cool, generally not super impressed by them. Not a big issue either.
Lores of Vamps
4, 5 and 6 are cool. Again nothing extremely exciting but good enough. 

Battalions
Castellants allows for a very elite force, 460+260+260+260+90 is heavy costed.
Court is playable but I don't think I'd put my points into it.
Deathmarch is neat and very playable technically but the effect on hand can also be obtained by pretty much any general, so I'd personally skip out on it because you might aswell summon this type of force and have additional points for more chaff.
Lords of Sacrement is pretty great, especially in conjunction with Legion of Sacrement.
Nightfall Pack is okay, I'm personally not overly sold by Vargheists though.
The First Cohort is for the Nagash fans, personally wouldn't go for it.

My personal reflection on the army again is that most power comes from it's units and the summonning technical aspects. Key is really for me that the general can re-roll charge ranges left and right based on Command Traits and this is obviously an essential asset if your capable to simply be summoned 9" away from the enemy  

By the looks of it I personally favour horde combinations (anvils) with monsters (hammers) the most. Based on the new knowledge obtained my favour doesn't go into anything particular but really should be judged list based. I do think that overall speaking Grand Host of Nagash and Legion of Sacrement will have the tools most likely because the aspects are so strongly there for either anvil or hammer. I think Legion of Night will join but I don't know their Command Traits.
Lastly Legion of Blood certainly doesn't look bad to me but does look weaker on paper to me because while Blood Knights hit hard they are functionally less hard to remove as 120+ Skeleton Warriors who all benifit from Deadly Invocation AND Summonable. The punch found in Morghasts, Nighthaunt units, Zombie Dragon or Terrorgheist arn't that different and the costs for them are rather easy to include and sygn up also.

[Undeadly]

Well, now that we have gotten the first reaction out of the way, I am trying to figure out what to add in addition to the core of Arkhan, the Mortis engine, 2 Necromancers and the battalion. Throwing in a Balewind Vortex to help increase the spell range, I think that it makes a incredibly solid magical base that can help debuff the enemy, and throw out powerful spells like Arkhan's Curse. I was thinking of bringing in a Flying Horror Vampire lord with Orb as a way to either throw down a long range nuke with the vortex, while also triggering my Grave sites. 

As for the actual troops, I was thinking a core of Skeletons, and a unit of Black Knights to help smash into the enemy. However, I feel that is making me go a little too light on rend, although I'm not exactly sure what I could use aside from Hexwraiths or Graveguard to fill that gap. There is Deadwalkers, specifically Dire Wolves, that could be paired with a Corpse Cart for further magical fun, although that still doesn't fill the offensive role I was looking for.

[Undeadly]

@Killax Here's the leaks for Legion of Night command traits

[smucreo]

Using the Sacrament Battalion I've been toying with a list like this: 

EDIT: (It's 5 direwolves forgot to change the number)

1990/2000

[swarmofseals]

9 minutes ago, someone2040 said:

Yeah, I think Vhordrai is a steal outside Legion of Blood as he basically has the +1 attack built into his profile. Then you also get the additional rend on the deathlance which is pretty huge, and his breath weapon is likely just better overall most of the time. His spell I reckon is also a ton better (mainly to buff himself).

That being said, the lack of command trait and artefact may mean you can build a VL on ZD for a more specific purpose than Vhordrai. 

I think overall the meta will influence whether Vhordrai or the vanilla Lord on Zombie Dragon is better. Mainly how much shooting is available, as the fact that most Legions have acccess to shooting protection is super useful on large monsters (See unkillable Stardrakes).

It's perhaps worth noting that in this specific list he wasn't taking the VLoZD as the general, so no command trait there. The artefact is noteworthy, of course. I'm not sure if it justifies the massive decrease in combat effectiveness though. 

 

VLoZD: 8 rend 1 damage, 2.33 rend rend 2 damage

Vhordrai (no quickblood): 4.67 rend 1, 8.83 rend 2 damage

Vhordrai (quickblood): 7.78 rend 1, 14.16 rend 2 damage

 

The difference between Vhordrai with quickblood and a VLoZD is absolutely nuts. Also, the list in question takes a regular Vampire Lord as the general, and his ability is more beneficial to Vhordrai. 

Even if you count all the damage as the same and ignore the rend, it takes a regular VLoZD 2.12 combat rounds to do the damage that Vhordrai with Quickblood will do in one. 

Against a 2+ save (admittedly the best case scenario for Vhordrai) the VLoZD will do an average of 3.83 unsaved wounds while Vhordrai with Quickblood will do an average of 9.67 wounds. In that case it takes the VLoZD 2.53 rounds to catch up to one round of Vhordrai. 

 

So the relevant question becomes: does the -1 to hit with shooting artefact  allow the VLoZD to survive enough longer to equalize the damage that Vhordrai does? Plus you have to factor in the opportunity cost of not having the artefact go to a different hero,  Vhordrai's far better breath weapon, and the added value of frontloading the damage while subtracting the cost of casting Quickblood instead of a different spell.

[Sception]

@smucreo Arkhan's formation is a 'Legion of Sacrament' battalion.  I don't think you can run it in a Grand Host army?  Am I wrong about that?

[Killax]

6 minutes ago, Undeadly said:

@Killax Here's the leaks for Legion of Night command traits

Thanks! 

That pretty much evens the fields again, lots of cool options here. I like 5 and 6 as potential Command Traits here. 1 is fun too but I havn't been able to figure out what to do with all that Ambush other than cascading it into suprise summons, though I don't think that many suprise summons are required  

What I do think is that the combination of Terrorgheists and Legion of Night can lead to some very fun and suprising assets. Killing backfield support heroes for example has never been this easy for Death (nor many other armies).

1 minute ago, Sception said:

@smucreo Arkhan's formation is a 'Legion of Sacrament' battalion.  I don't think you can run it in a Grand Host army?  Am I wrong about that?

Currently you can run Battalions however you want to. E.g. Murderhost is not only available to Khorne, all you need to do is meet the Battalion requirements.

[smucreo]

1 minute ago, Sception said:

@smucreo Arkhan's formation is a 'Legion of Sacrament' battalion.  I don't think you can run it in a Grand Host army?  Am I wrong about that?

You know I don't really know, I just assumed it works like all other battalions. You may be right though  Can anyone check?

[Undeadly]

@smucreo

Eh, I'm hesitant to focus on a magic-heavy list without a Balewind Vortex; the ability to de-buff enemy ranged units is incredibly good, especially  when paired the Cloak artifact.  Nothing says invulnerable like a Necromancer on a Balewind handing out -1 to hit on enemy ranged units. Only problem is that it makes it impossible to use the Necromancer's Deathly Minions ability, so I'm tempted to put the Vampire on the Vortex, and give him the Cloak, while the Necromancer gets the bracelet. I'm a little bit iffy on the necessity of Morghasts since Gravesites can help speed us up, but it makes sense to run them in a Grand Host army. My only fear is that your giving up too much of your magical potency to include them in. Also, Dire-wolves are 60 per 5, not per 10.

Also, I can't way to say "Strike!" after rolling a perfect Amythest Orb.

 

[someone2040]

5 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

It's perhaps worth noting that in this specific list he wasn't taking the VLoZD as the general, so no command trait there. The artefact is noteworthy, of course. I'm not sure if it justifies the massive decrease in combat effectiveness though. 

 

VLoZD: 8 rend 1 damage, 2.33 rend rend 2 damage

Vhordrai (no quickblood): 4.67 rend 1, 8.83 rend 2 damage

Vhordrai (quickblood): 7.78 rend 1, 14.16 rend 2 damage

 

The difference between Vhordrai with quickblood and a VLoZD is absolutely nuts. Also, the list in question takes a regular Vampire Lord as the general, and his ability is more beneficial to Vhordrai. 

Even if you count all the damage as the same and ignore the rend, it takes a regular VLoZD 2.12 combat rounds to do the damage that Vhordrai with Quickblood will do in one. 

Against a 2+ save (admittedly the best case scenario for Vhordrai) the VLoZD will do an average of 3.83 unsaved wounds while Vhordrai with Quickblood will do an average of 9.67 wounds. In that case it takes the VLoZD 2.53 rounds to catch up to one round of Vhordrai. 

 

So the relevant question becomes: does the -1 to hit with shooting artefact  allow the VLoZD to survive enough longer to equalize the damage that Vhordrai does? Plus you have to factor in the opportunity cost of not having the artefact go to a different hero,  Vhordrai's far better breath weapon, and the added value of frontloading the damage while subtracting the cost of casting Quickblood instead of a different spell.

Yeah, I guess I was comparing just in general terms and more of a one over the other (as opposed to a double dragon list).

I think when talking about Vhordrai it's also important to point out that Quickblood has a quite high casting value of 7. You'll probably want to find a way to buff that (Legion of Sacrament, Corpse Cart, Mortis Engine) so that it's more reliable. It could be similar to an Alarielle case though, don't charge in if you haven't got Vhordrai buffed up (Or don't charge Alarielle if you failed Mystic Shield).

Interestingly the more I think about Vhordrai's command ability the more I kinda like it but not for the reasons I initially thought. Originally I dismissed the spell casting ability, thinking that the command ability was definitely the weak link on the warscroll, but could have some applicability if you manage to squeeze another beatstick into the list (Can even squeeze in a Ghoul King on Terrorgheist into your allies).

But having thought about it, being able to cast a second spell could be super important also. If you've got Vhordrai + Melee Hero + Necromancer, it allows that Necro to both Mystic Shield and do something else. Even if you've got a few more spellcasters, that's basically saying "You can cast Mystic Shield and all your bonus Legion spells/arcane bolt/warscroll spell".

I think there's definitely a case for a hero-centric list which doesn't need to support the regular units as much to use Vhordrai as the General and skip on the command trait.

But yeah, it's going to come down to the meta. If the meta sees Vhordrai shot off or heavily damaged turn 1 most of the time, you're probably going to be looking at the Vampire Lord scroll just so you can get an artefact to protect your investment (or look at bringing lots of smaller heroes to split the load).

[Killax]

54 minutes ago, smucreo said:

Using the Sacrament Battalion I've been toying with a list like this: 

EDIT: (It's 5 direwolves forgot to change the number)

1990/2000

Pretty cool. Do note that that's only 5 Dire Wolves for 60, not 10.

This is what I had sketched up, will figure out later if I want to continue with the Legion of Sacrement, but I think I do and I also am seriously considering splitting Vampire from Zombie Dragon so we can run more monsters. Then it might also turn into Legion of Night... Anyway, the sketch up:

Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon
Vampire Lord
Necromancer
Necromancer
Terrorgheist/Zombie Dragon
[sum] 40 Skeleton Warriors (spears)
[sum] 40 Skeleton Warriors (spears)
[sum] 5 Dire Wolves
[sum] 5 Dire Wolves
Corpse Cart with Unholy Lodestone

The cool thing about the Ambush variant is that we can put another Terrorgheist into it (2) and a necromancer and basically have a hardcore parkour with Vampire Lords.
 

[Major]

I am really hoping there is a way to make Deathrattle work competitively in this.

I have to try make a list out of
 

Nagash
Arkhan
Wight Kings
Necromancers
Skeletons
Grave Guards
Black Knights
Morghasts
 

[Burf]

1 hour ago, Undeadly said:

@smucreo

Eh, I'm hesitant to focus on a magic-heavy list without a Balewind Vortex; the ability to de-buff enemy ranged units is incredibly good, especially  when paired the Cloak artifact.  Nothing says invulnerable like a Necromancer on a Balewind handing out -1 to hit on enemy ranged units. Only problem is that it makes it impossible to use the Necromancer's Deathly Minions ability, so I'm tempted to put the Vampire on the Vortex, and give him the Cloak, while the Necromancer gets the bracelet. I'm a little bit iffy on the necessity of Morghasts since Gravesites can help speed us up, but it makes sense to run them in a Grand Host army. My only fear is that your giving up too much of your magical potency to include them in. Also, Dire-wolves are 60 per 5, not per 10.

Also, I can't way to say "Strike!" after rolling a perfect Amythest Orb.

 

If you take LoS and DON'T take a balewind, you're basically saying 'I am 100% confident I will go second every game.' Because you'll lose if you get double turned, straight up.

[TheKingInYellow]

So I'm just realizing that Legion of Blood doesn't get battleline Blood Knights...

[Undeadly]

3 minutes ago, Burf said:

If you take LoS and DON'T take a balewind, you're basically saying 'I am 100% confident I will go second every game.' Because you'll lose if you get double turned, straight up.

Yeah, that's kind of my fear. Although, I do have a plan to get first Turn, thanks to Gravesites. If my plan goes as well as I think it will, than it is entirely possible to make a turn 1 charge. Put a Gravesite 9" away from the enemy in the middle, load it with a unit like Black Knights, move a fast flying hero towards it first turn,  pop the Gravesite, put them 9" away. It gives a nice threat right up in the enemy's face, and can really bog down an army if they are too slow, or can't eat through a unit like Direhounds or Black Knights.

[shinros]

I know people are discussing the rules but I just watched the lore stream and Nick does answer the question the "official" reason why Nagash bought back Mannfred. 

It's a simple case that Nagash is not really a creature of passion anymore so by large he does not care what Mannfred did. So yeah Nagash largely does not care he blew up the world.  What he does care about is how useful someone is and he is now the sort of person not to waste anything so in turn he consider's Mannfred extremely useful despite whatever he did.

Plus if there was a punishment it would be the fact that our bald vampire now has an eternal leash he can't get off and he has to accept Nagash is his master. Which in his mind is the ultimate punishment Since Nagash can dominate all dead even Mortarch's. (It also seems Mannfred is aware when Nagash does it going by the novel.)

(plus the added fact in lord of undeath novel Nagash note's Mannfred is largely the Mortarch who get's his schemes since he has the mind for it.)

[Smavo]

Im planning a Sacrament List

 

Arkhan (320 Points)

-general

Necromancer (110 Points)

-cloak

Necromancer (110 Points)

-wristgaurds

Prince V (480 Points)

 

Skeleton Warriors (40) (280 Points)

Dire wolves (5) (60 Points)

Dire wolves (5) (60 Points)

 

Mortis engine (180 Points)

Corpse cart with Losestone (80 Points)

 

Sacrament Battalion (70 Points)

Total 1750 points

That will give me 250 to play with to add more wolves or drop 5 wolves a d put in 40 more skellys.

 

[AverageBoss]

3 hours ago, Killax said:

Stuff that personally does excite me a lot:

...6. Once per battle Terrorgheist Shriek....

Actually from what I can see, it is not once per game.

Seems like a really tempting option to me.

[Sception]

2 hours ago, Undeadly said:

Yeah, that's kind of my fear. Although, I do have a plan to get first Turn, thanks to Gravesites. If my plan goes as well as I think it will, than it is entirely possible to make a turn 1 charge. Put a Gravesite 9" away from the enemy in the middle, load it with a unit like Black Knights, move a fast flying hero towards it first turn,  pop the Gravesite, put them 9" away. It gives a nice threat right up in the enemy's face, and can really bog down an army if they are too slow, or can't eat through a unit like Direhounds or Black Knights.

I don't know.  9" is far from a guaranteed charge.  How many units are you taking, that you feel confident at least some of them will make it?

[WoollyMammoth]

Played two 1000 point games tonight

First game was against a bunch of Dracoth calvary and two units of judicators. I had Arkhan, two necromancers, 10 wolves, 6 spirit hosts and a cart. I had to go first ... I thought I was out of range for spells at exactly 24" but the store manager later said at 24" = within 24".  Regardless I rolled a 3 to fail my half movement spell (needs a 6).  I summoned the hosts but they failed their charge. Next I had to go through two turns of oppressive shooting and Dracoth shooting and Dracoth nasty attacks. Arkhan got into combat and whiffed hard. Finally I got my turn and cast Ama. Orb, hit all 3 units of Dracoth, didn't roll my 4+ on a single one. With a 4 wound CoY and a desperate Arcane Bolt I managed to kill his Dracoth Celestant. Then I whiffed in combat with Arkhan again then he was dead and it was over. 

Talk about new model syndrome, this was new rule syndrome! Regardless of the fact that 24" exactly is in, I really needed a Vortex here. I could have used it to push up Arkhan and give his great range for CoY and probably put a debuff spell on him, while probably Ama. Orb cast at 36" and you can probably do something nasty if you go first.

Second game I had Neferata with 10 Wolves, 40 skeletons, a Necro and a Corpse Cart. I was able to make him go firs this time which helped a lot. He had a mixed Tzeentch list with horrors, 10 warriors, Ogoid, Daemon Prince, 3 flamers and Slambo. I cursed the Warriors with -1 to hit and slammed Neferata in. With -2 to hit they were able to do very little to neferata but with Mystic Shield and Ins. Presence it took me two turns to eat through them. I was doing well on objectives and I think I had him but we didn't get to see who started turn 3. 

The wolves were a nice kind of hardy cheap block with the corpse cart, but they do not do much for damage at all. Neferata is a beast with her extra healing now and especially scary with her heal D3 spell. -1 plus her -1 aura helps a lot. 

Still not sure what all this means yet...

[Richelieu]

26 minutes ago, WoollyMammoth said:

I had to go first ... I thought I was out of range for spells at exactly 24" but the store manager later said at 24" = within 24".

What scenario were you playing that allowed you to start exactly 24" away?  Set up rules typically specify 'more than 12" from enemy territory' therefore you should always start the game more than 24" away from your opponent. Duality of death is an exception as it just says in your territory and they are exactly 24" apart... However to be exactly 24" to an enemy model, you would have to be able to draw a line from the closest point on your base to the closest point on an enemy base that is exactly perpendicular to the deployment zones, which is... Unlikely to say the least.  

Knife to the heart and total conquest you must deploy more than 18" from an enemy model.

[WoollyMammoth]

44 minutes ago, Richelieu said:

What scenario were you playing that allowed you to start exactly 24" away?  Set up rules typically specify 'more than 12" from enemy territory' therefore you should always start the game more than 24" away from your opponent. Duality of death is an exception as it just says in your territory and they are exactly 24" apart... However to be exactly 24" to an enemy model, you would have to be able to draw a line from the closest point on your base to the closest point on an enemy base that is exactly perpendicular to the deployment zones, which is... Unlikely to say the least.  

Knife to the heart and total conquest you must deploy more than 18" from an enemy model.

good point.  I don't want to attempt an Arkhan list without a vortex. It can be used to push Aarkhan a few inches to get his spells off easy, while the guy on the vortex can cast easy, with the item for -2 to hit.

[smucreo]

Hey all, thanks for your comments on the list. I'm aware it's 5 wolves, I just forgot to change it on the excel hahah I see you are all suggesting vortex, what would you change in the list to include them? Keep in mind I'm also not LoS but Grand Host allegiance. And would you use it on the Necromancer with the debuffs?

EDIT: Maybe remove one unit of skeletons and put 15 more dogs and vortex in their place?  I'd have a battleline of 40 skeletons that I can summon forward with the fast vamp lord and 2 units of 10 wolves to catch up fast.