Age of Sigmar: Second Edition

[Gaz Taylor]

1 hour ago, Naflem said:

command points are cancer.

This is a prime example of what we don’t want. Points issued. Think about what you are posting, especially such very very silly comments

[Gotrek]

10 minutes ago, ledha said:

Main difference between skellies and bloodletters is that skellies are cheaper, more resilient (because of number of wound, comparable save and the insane death regeneration), have easier time to attack (25mm base vs 32) and basically much more damaging against everything that doesn't have a crazy armor. Both use support, but bloodletters are literally bad without the ultra-important bloodsecrators, while skellies can still be a threat without a necromancer behind them.

And please, no one ever use the 8th blood tithe level, because keeping those 8 pts mean never use any during the whole game and the previous rank are so useful (the attack out of sequence as you said, as well as the auto-unbind) that you can't not use them. And even if you do, you'll maybe be able to use this 8th blood tithe level one time ine the game

And why use the 8th level when you can use the 7th who is much more powerful ?

And the look out sir will make death generals harder to snipe out. A footlocking hero with the right item will stand with a -3 to hit at range

Skeletons without heroes nearby are THE definiton of bad. No regen, no deathless minion, and with spears they are on 5s to hit. In an unsupported fight without running the numbers I'd give the skeletons at best 50/50 odds, coming down to who activates first.

As for sniping: until we see the warscroll rewrites there are still several ways to snipe a foot slogger: BCR snowball, stormcast dracoth breath/hammer cloak/relictor prayer/ trumpet blast, ironweld arsonal gyrobombers (you can fit 5 into your ally points), flamespyre phoenix's wake of flame, nurgle trees, magic (arcane bolt got nerfed but theres still fireball, chain lightning, final transmutation, burning gaze, comet of casandora, Kroak-nado and all the filth from tzeentch), prayers (blood boil specifically), as well as shooting outside of the shooting phase (skull cannon battalion comes to mind specifically) since the artifacts only protect you in the shooting phase (specifically states attacks that target the bearer in the shooting phase ).

We're gamers guys. Yes part of that is to complain about change, but where the real fun is at is turning something terrible into a force to be reckoned with and finding ways to make the invincible into our ****** (like a white dragon whos butchering your party while inside an anti magic field so you step outside of the field and roll out a 55 gallon drum of alchemist fire from your portable hole, cast shrink item on it and throw it at the dragon).

[AverageBoss]

3 hours ago, Charles said:

Great post, and I love my games feeling like the lore. However a unit of animated Skeletons doing 480 attacks in one turn does not feel anything like the lore it feels like designers trying to make a new net list. Same as Nurgle being twice as fast as Khorne is not a lore based decision it’s designed to make a top tier faction.

Actually it is pretty thematic. The Nagash trilogy shows skilled necromancers being able to focus energies into their dead units to make them strike faster and stronger than any mortal could manage.  Nagash himself (when his power was still largely limited) had a skeleton horde overwhelm a group of highly skilled giant barbarians, despite said barbarians also outnumbering him 4:1 and his living troops giving away the attack before it happened.

Also, the particular skeleton combo they laid out costs a whopping 1090 points, 3 command points, successful casting of a spell (which can be unbound by someone 30" away now), and all 40 skeletons to be in attack range.

[Enoby]

What units do people reckon will be in for a points change in the upcoming edition?

(It may be baseless speculation, but baseless speculation is fun :p)

[Thostos]

  Ive been actively playing my LoN list in ITC events since the book dropped,,I run Nagash with a VLoZD,Mancer,40 skellies,10 BKs and 2x5 Direwolves.From what we know so far,the new "pointless" summoning will of course require resources of some sort,,however we also know from what is said about LoN that it will probably not change much as the summoning ability LoN has is a command ability and thus will cost at least 1 point to use.From what I can tell from this announcement,I can say that its a nice addition to the army but most definately not OP`d.
 

  First off I dont ever seeing a block of 40 skeletons returning to the game through a graveyard,as it takes up almost half the gy circle and thats assuming there is no enemy units within 9" of the marker,,,even considering holding the skellies in reserve is a huge risk and a savy player will speed forward with a throw away unit just to block you out for a turn.Now using this ability to bring back smaller units,,thats certainly possible,though in the case of my current build,I wouldnt waste time bringing back wolves as Nagash`s command ability is far more useful for the army than a unit of chaff,,though its nice to have the option.Other army builds for LoN may well make much better use of the rule,,bringing back Spirit Hosts,or even Bats,..though in all these cases the units would be small and may very well not ever make an impact on the game due to positioning.

 We just dont have enough info the make judgements on how this resource system is going to work out for the older armies and their summoning,but its a fair assumption that any regro/summoning currently tied to command abilities may very well be usable without points.Summoning in this case would likely be minimum size units as before perhaps with the ability to spend more command to increase unit size.

 And just to add to the fun speculation,,what if units that were summoned were all removed from the game if the summoner gets killed:)

 

[AverageBoss]

1 hour ago, ledha said:

And the look out sir will make death generals harder to snipe out. A footlocking hero with the right item will stand with a -3 to hit at range

Death heroes come in two varieties.

1. Giant centerpiece models that can't be hidden.

2. 4-5 wound heroes.

Only the latter benefits from Look Out Sir. But given their low wound count, there are plenty of ways to deal with them without missile weapons. Because of this, I think Death generals will (as they do currently) fall into category 1 ninety nine percent of the time.

[Chikout]

I think part of the problem is the community article promoting FREE summoning. This reminds people of the early days of aos and units chaining infinite summons.

The new summoning, however, is different. The cost comes in terms of things other than points. 

Nurgle needs to accrue contagion points, Khorne blood tithe, etc. 

Playing against these armies will require a change of tactics certainly, but it does seem manageable. 

Thematically death has always been an army that relies strongly on their general. Now the rules will more strongly mirror the theme which is good.

If we are imagining crazy combos, let's say Tzeentch gets summoning points by successfully casting spells, take a Barack Nar Ko list with 6 navigators. 12 dispels a turn at 30 inch range. Tzeentch is going to struggle to get summoning points. 

Against Slaanesh concentrated fire becomes very important. 

Against death and nurgle board management becomes more important. 

Also tarpit those big skeleton units with small high defense units which prevent all the skeletons getting their attacks in. 

Against Khorne, don't pick a fight. Again strong defensive units will be good. 

In the new edition some armies will get stronger, others will get weaker, but despite these changes I don't see any army becoming absurdly powerful as it stands.

I also think that any warscroll the is not currently in a battletome could get significant changes with AoS 2. After all GW went to the trouble of updating all the dark Elf warscrolls for warhammer legends. I doubt they are going ignore warscrolls simply because they are not current.

Finally I am very curious about the new thing coming to EVERY (gw's bold) army. Unless Ko and dispossessed are suddenly getting magic, it can't be that.

As for trust in GW. I have a lot of faith in Ben Johnson. Putting him in charge of Aos was a great move by GW, and is a great example of the difference between old GW and new GW.

He is a regular tournament player who has a undeniable love of the game (and a shocking ability to paint amazing armies quickly).

I strongly believe that Aos is in safe hands.

[Tittliewinks22]

4 minutes ago, AverageBoss said:

Death heroes come in two varieties.

1. Giant centerpiece models that can't be hidden.

2. 4-5 wound heroes.

Only the latter benefits from Look Out Sir. But given their low wound count, there are plenty of ways to deal with them without missile weapons. Because of this, I think Death generals will (as they do currently) fall into category 1 ninety nine percent of the time.

Agree completely. The only time I will consider a small hero as the general is in 500-1000 game. Even then, it's usually a weight king due to the 3+ save.

I think most people complaining about death forgot that they lost access to mystic shield which is how Nagash got 2+ rerollable and how a VLoZD from blood also got 2+ rerollable...  The amount of 2+ rerollable in the game is now much more scarce which I think is going to be a big boost for some armies such as sylvaneth that still have access to this.  With the changes to arcane bolt, the amount of mw flinging will go down to some extent!

[Kamose]

8 hours ago, Mcthew said:

Ok. This is where this forum fails on the panic/running around/navel gazing and general misinformation fuelled by GW’s drip fed updates on what the new edition may or may not look like. 

Shall we calm down now?

Hear hear!  The assumptions running around on this thread are becoming unbearable.  Kudos to the mods for keeping the invective to a minimum.   

8 hours ago, kuroyume said:

Of course, what they want is to keep people speculating and maybe have some panic and start buying stuff to build new armies.

GW are building hype and doing it quite well.  They're doing it the same way they did with the 40k release and that worked well for them. Of course they are trying to get people excited for the new edition so they'll purchase new models.  However, I promise they're not trying some misguided marketing strategy of 'panic induced impulse buying'. 

8 hours ago, Freejack02 said:

And we should care what random manager's assessment of online users because... why?

Because its accurate.  Its also a chance for some important self reflection about polite online etiquette and the role of hyperbole in reasonable discussion.  Here's a hint: hyperbole is used to shut down reasonable discussion.

The exaggerated panicking I'm seeing here is not GW's doing.  The angry, doom saying is posted by individuals who are choosing to say these things without proper reflection about how to appropriately respond to GW's previews.  This is what a community looks like when it lets thoughtless, fearful emotion dictate discussion. 

Everyone just calm down and read your posts before hitting submit.

[Edgecoc]

I’m just happy Slaanesh seems to be getting a lot better, so I for one am looking forward to new edition . Also actually want to start Stormcasts, the new models look really sweet. 

[daedalus81]

5 hours ago, Gotrek said:

In life, pessimism is always better because when people and the world live down to your expectations it isnt as disappointing.  However, i do think burf is taking it to an extreme

Seems like a terrible life never looking forward to anything.

One might even lift rocks to validate their outlook lest they wasted their pessimism for nothing.

If GW didn't have an FAQ schedule I'd be more worried.

If GW wasn't communicating as much as they have been I'd be more worried.

If they didn't have playtesters I'd be more worried.

 

[Gotrek]

14 minutes ago, daedalus81 said:

Seems like a terrible life never looking forward to anything.

One might even lift rocks to validate their outlook lest they wasted their pessimism for nothing.

If GW didn't have an FAQ schedule I'd be more worried.

If GW wasn't communicating as much as they have been I'd be more worried.

If they didn't have playtesters I'd be more worried.

 

Depends on how you define terrible. Empty sure, terrible though? Eh. Its not that i sit here and think to myself "oh man " X" is gonna suck so bad it wont even be worth playing. My time would be better spent watching my veins spurt blood". Im cautious. Mostly. Last time i got excited was when (i think it was at nova last year) and someone asked about a deathrattle battletome and GWs response was "not this side of christmas". That got me pumped for a deathrattle book aaaand what i got was legions of nagash. Not a bad book by any means, but without any new kits (and no the bloodseeker palanquin isnt a new kit. Its just a kit bash) it felt like GW was just doing the bare minimum to shut death players up.

Now for 2nd ed im, again, cautious. I like what i see (mostly), but i want more information, i need to see it in its full context. I dont think it'll suck, i dont think its going to kill the game, but I'm not confident that it'll fix whats wrong with my armies (which basically is non monster character sniping and for death specifically more deathrattle options. I just dont feel the ghosts.)

[Brightstar]

3 hours ago, DanielFM said:

 

I loved AoS balance for its deceptive simplicity and relative balance. And I can fear GW will mess it up as they have done before.

I have played every game gw has ever produced except fantasy. 

I think saying GW will mess it up is a bit harsh. I don't think they will. I do think they may be making changes to make the game more "interesting" when it doesnt need the change.  The command points are neat, but it doesnt need them

I love the new summoning mechanics. I think it adds cool thematic elements to the game that wargames sideline for "balance." It helps make these armies feel like who they are supposed to be on the table. I much prefer the new death summoning amd nurgle compared to the generic mechanic.

When it comes to balance, I am not concerned about it. Look, its the 21st century. Either summoning lists will dominate or they wont. If they dont something else will. Its how the internet fueled player base effects games. Its a core mechanic of tournament/matched play. It happens in every wargame based around points.  I have units,whole armies, i dont field because they are not as good as other choices. 

So looking at a half-informed summoning system amd worrying if its broken?  If its not something else will be. If it is then we'll complain and GW will "fix" it again like they did deep strike - even though it didnt need to be - and we'll move on to complain about the next broken combo. 

Thematically its awesome. For the narrative its awesome. Mechanically its a really cool idea. The points may just get in the way of a great, cool new set of rules.

[kuroyume]

14 minutes ago, Brightstar said:

Thematically its awesome. For the narrative its awesome. Mechanically its a really cool idea. The points may just get in the way of a great, cool new set of rules.

That's why Open and Narrative game modes exist though. Matched Play comes with the assumption that an effort has been made to ensure balance, even if it hurts the fluff side of things.

[daedalus81]

1 hour ago, Gotrek said:

Depends on how you define terrible. Empty sure, terrible though? Eh. Its not that i sit here and think to myself "oh man " X" is gonna suck so bad it wont even be worth playing. My time would be better spent watching my veins spurt blood". Im cautious. Mostly. Last time i got excited was when (i think it was at nova last year) and someone asked about a deathrattle battletome and GWs response was "not this side of christmas". That got me pumped for a deathrattle book aaaand what i got was legions of nagash. Not a bad book by any means, but without any new kits (and no the bloodseeker palanquin isnt a new kit. Its just a kit bash) it felt like GW was just doing the bare minimum to shut death players up.

Now for 2nd ed im, again, cautious. I like what i see (mostly), but i want more information, i need to see it in its full context. I dont think it'll suck, i dont think its going to kill the game, but I'm not confident that it'll fix whats wrong with my armies (which basically is non monster character sniping and for death specifically more deathrattle options. I just dont feel the ghosts.)

All in due time.  If it's terrible sales will fall off the cliff and GW will have to claw back some changes.  

Meanwhile we paint and just tool around.  

[Naflem]

5 hours ago, Naflem said:

command points are cancer.

 

4 hours ago, Gaz Taylor said:

This is a prime example of what we don’t want. Points issued. Think about what you are posting, especially such very very silly comments

I have no idea what "Points issued" means.....  Geez I hope they're not command points.  ?

[Sigwarus]

4 hours ago, AverageBoss said:

Death heroes come in two varieties.

1. Giant centerpiece models that can't be hidden.

2. 4-5 wound heroes.

Only the latter benefits from Look Out Sir. But given their low wound count, there are plenty of ways to deal with them without missile weapons. Because of this, I think Death generals will (as they do currently) fall into category 1 ninety nine percent of the time.

Good point but the necromancers that often get fielded in pairs are rather hard to kill with their special protection. Its like killing a 10 wound model. And now it's got - 1 to hit mark. 

[AverageBoss]

8 minutes ago, Sigwarus said:

Good point but the necromancers that often get fielded in pairs are rather hard to kill with their special protection. Its like killing a 10 wound model. And now it's got - 1 to hit mark. 

Yes, but only the general can use the summon command ability. I seriously doubt people are going to start using Necromancers as generals. Further, they don't pass mortal wounds off with their special rule anymore, so they are very vulnerable to those.

[mhsellwood]

2 hours ago, daedalus81 said:

Seems like a terrible life never looking forward to anything.

One might even lift rocks to validate their outlook lest they wasted their pessimism for nothing.

If GW didn't have an FAQ schedule I'd be more worried.

If GW wasn't communicating as much as they have been I'd be more worried.

If they didn't have playtesters I'd be more worried.

 

If they didn't have an annual opportunity to re-balance points and scenarios I would be more worried

If they didn't have the capacity and willingness to update Warscrolls as they go I would be more worried

On the more broad point of will they stuff up game balance... Nobody is perfect, but at the moment GW have more feedback mechanisms and scope to respond in a timely manner than they ever have before and are willing to respond.

[Gaz Taylor]

1 hour ago, Naflem said:

 

I have no idea what "Points issued" means.....  Geez I hope they're not command points.  ?

No you’ve been gifted with warning points and I’ve given you another one for this sarcastic comment. I will look into a ban next. 

[Sigwarus]

37 minutes ago, AverageBoss said:

Yes, but only the general can use the summon command ability. I seriously doubt people are going to start using Necromancers as generals. Further, they don't pass mortal wounds off with their special rule anymore, so they are very vulnerable to those.

Not as generals but as a part of getting many attacks. Are you sure about the necromancer not getting to allocate mortals on skeletons? When was it changed? In the faq? Sounds good if true, then there is a way. 

[AverageBoss]

19 minutes ago, Sigwarus said:

Not as generals but as a part of getting many attacks. Are you sure about the necromancer not getting to allocate mortals on skeletons? When was it changed? In the faq? Sounds good if true, then there is a way. 

The previous wording for the ability specified that it worked on Wounds and Mortal Wounds. The current rendition does not. The LoN book is littered with abilities the are specific in differentiating the two. Deathless Minions and First Cohort say they trigger on Wounds and Mortal Wounds. The armor on Nagash and the Morghasts only trigger on Mortal Wounds. The Wight King and Necromancer abilities only mention Wounds.

[Jamopower]

I don't believe endless legions alone will break the bank in 2000 point games, although it is a very useful and powerful tool for the Legions. However in smaller games, say 1000 points match, it sounds so powerful that I would certainly think twice using it in a casual game. 4 gravesites in smaller games are already pushing it and getting back unit such as 10 black knights, which requires considerable effort to get rid off, does quite much damage on the way and constitutes quite hefty percentual points cost can easily win the game. I just hope that they have thought about the smaller point clashes as well with the new rules, as the well working scaling of the game has been one of the strong points of AoS. 

[DanielFM]

So, can we assume from last article that a single hero can use more than one command ability if he has enough points? The point about being able to resurrect several units through that LoN command ability implies you can repeat the same CA. I guess different ones should be the same.

Just thinking about the tactical potential of a Lord Aquilor coming from the rearguard and using the reroll charge CA in the same turn.

And also possible issues with ability stacking. If a Lord Celestant used his CA twice, would units get +2 to hit or the rule would apply only once? The wording suggest the latter. I guess GW will errata warscrolls to ensure they can/can't stack as intended.

[ledha]

11 minutes ago, DanielFM said:

So, can we assume from last article that a single hero can use more than one command ability if he has enough points? The point about being able to resurrect several units through that LoN command ability implies you can repeat the same CA. I guess different ones should be the same.

Just thinking about the tactical potential of a Lord Aquilor coming from the rearguard and using the reroll charge CA in the same turn.

And also possible issues with ability stacking. If a Lord Celestant used his CA twice, would units get +2 to hit or the rule would apply only once? The wording suggest the latter. I guess GW will errata warscrolls to ensure they can/can't stack as intended.

The same ability can be used by different heroes, but i don't think a lone hero can use several time his command ability