Six hero limit

[Iain]

Does anyone else dislike the 6 hero limit for matched play at 2000 points? Personally I find the characters to be the most interesting units, and it keeps down overall model counts, and so play time, painting time, etc. And when the limit includes 60pt characters like skaven pack master who really aren't very heroic (you get 3 in a pack!) I kinda don't see the point in it. Is there a good reason for it?

[Dez]

I'd love to play Herohammer

[Galas]

The thing that I most love in Wargames its personalizing my little Joes. Thats why I always loved bretonnia, an army that encourage you to make every-single-knight totally unique.

So actually, I spend more time in  champions of my infantry units, kitbashing them and personalizing them than in the Hero models. The fact that normally they sell those with 0 modularity and that you can't change them very much because then people can be confused of what hero its what, its a little meh to me.

I have spend more time painting and writing the background of the leader of my Bloodreavers than my Bloodsecrator  

 

But yeah, I think that a % can work better, because 6 skavens heroes that cost 400 points are not equivalent to 6 stormcast heroes that cost 1200 points. 
Then we enter in the debate of complexity vs simplicity. 6 heroes its more intuitive than 25% of the max points, for example.

[yarrickson]

It does compromise a few factions who really need their characters to shine. 

Best example is Fyreslayers. By the time you've taken a Runefather to unlock the alternative battleline units, a couple of runesmiters for tunnelling shenanigans, a battlesmith to buff your main line and a Runemaster for volcano making, there's little wiggle room to really go wild on Grim wrath Berserkers or magmadroths, the greatest combat powers they have. 

Counter to that, three places of power works as a mission because everybody only has between 1 and 6 heroes. If someone with a certain army could suddenly bring 12 it'd change things. 

[Sleboda]

In matched play, restrictions (forced choices) are good.  If you want more heroes, play open play. 

 

It is funny how we used to hear about armies not looking like armies and now we see people wanting to do everything we can to remove models from our "armies."

[Spinsane]

Switching to a percentage system also limits the availability of centerpiece models. Even if the bar were set at 50%, that still limits Nagash to 2000pts+ games, a well as Archaon and Gordrakk to 1500pts (1400+), as examples. And even then, you're left with very little room for anyone else, and heros are important and key for most armies...

[RuneBrush]

I've really mixed feelings.  On the one hand I'd love to put in more heroes into my Khorne army - there are so many to choose from and each one plays differently.  I've felt that percentage limits has worked really well when I've used them in the past - but that wasn't for AoS where everything can injure everything.  I've faced two Great Unclean Ones at 1000 points and it still sits as the worst game of AoS I've had and percentage caps could have prevented that...

However on the other hand, it's a pretty sweeping change and would favour some armies over others, especially for some battle plans.  It would also add an extra level of complexity and you'd need to apply it to all items - suggesting a minimum 25% to be spent on Battleline would cause outrage amongst some players.

[SimonL]

It really does depend on your army?

 

I am currently playing Sylvaneth and in my last game I played 4 heroes that cost 1080pts, if I threw Alarielle in I wouldn't have room for battle line! Cool do you want a game of HeroHammer Dez!!!

 

But I am now collecting Nurgle Rotbringers and the points on them would allow me to bring more easily.

 

 I suppose you could always arrange with your opponent to have a game that allows more than 6, just to see how it works.

[Gaz Taylor]

8 hours ago, Iain said:

Does anyone else dislike the 6 hero limit for matched play at 2000 points? Personally I find the characters to be the most interesting units, and it keeps down overall model counts, and so play time, painting time, etc. And when the limit includes 60pt characters like skaven pack master who really aren't very heroic (you get 3 in a pack!) I kinda don't see the point in it. Is there a good reason for it?

Very simply in matched play you would get people bringing lists like 20 Lord Celestant's. For a lot of people this would not be fun to play against (even if they had to bring along some token battleline units, so have 17 Lord Celestants if you took 3 units of Liberators).

I quite like the cap because if I feel the urge to play with more characters, I can play open play or narrative play  

[Killax]

It really depends per army. What could help and would help in the future is have some Leaders count towards max in a 1-2 style, meaning some will be 0.5 slot takers if you want to.

Generally speaking 6 is enough, its the below 100 points characters that could use this exception.

[Captain Marius]

Maybe some Heroes could not be classed as Leaders, and are thus treated as one man units. Grimwrath Berserker could fit that. Skarr for Khorne. Knight Questor for Stormcast. Shadowblade, Cairn Wraith maybe. The link is Heroes who basically operate alone and dont offer any buffs to anything (so not Leaders in any way shape or form). There arent that many so this could be handled on an army by army basis.

[Iain]

Yes was just going to make the same point as the captain, would be easy to make it so some low-pointed heros don't take up a leader slot.

[wayniac]

Yes.  I dislike most of the "forced" restrictions on Matched Play, since I find they go against what IMHO was one of the best initial points of AOS: Easily able to theme an army.  Battleline restriction in particular irk me because often it's all over the place how it is assigned, and when many of the subfactions require 100% of that subfaction to make Battleline, it immediately kills the ability to do a truly themed force.  I get that sometimes it had potential to be abused, but now we have the opposite since almost everyone only wants to play Matched; we are right back to WHFB army building instead of truly being able to customize what we play.

[RuneBrush]

6 minutes ago, wayniac said:

Yes.  I dislike most of the "forced" restrictions on Matched Play, since I find they go against what IMHO was one of the best initial points of AOS: Easily able to theme an army.  Battleline restriction in particular irk me because often it's all over the place how it is assigned, and when many of the subfactions require 100% of that subfaction to make Battleline, it immediately kills the ability to do a truly themed force.  I get that sometimes it had potential to be abused, but now we have the opposite since almost everyone only wants to play Matched; we are right back to WHFB army building instead of truly being able to customize what we play.

Sadly though there are many people who can produce a nice thematic and relatively balanced army there are also a lot of numpties who would purposely build the most unbalanced and insanely powerful army going  

[wayniac]

1 minute ago, RuneBrush said:

Sadly though there are many people who can produce a nice thematic and relatively balanced army there are also a lot of numpties who would purposely build the most unbalanced and insanely powerful army going  

Judging from some of the lists dominating tournaments, arbitrary restrictions do not change this

[Sadysaneto]

if you can summon heroes, you dont have to worry about it

[Dez]

7 hours ago, SimonL said:

I am currently playing Sylvaneth and in my last game I played 4 heroes that cost 1080pts, if I threw Alarielle in I wouldn't have room for battle line! Cool do you want a game of HeroHammer Dez!!!

Sure! I'll play against anything, as I figure even tough lists present a challenge which I enjoy as much as any other part of the hobby. I've actually played against something very close to this with Alarielle and it didn't bother me one bit  Plus I'd really love to fight a 'Battle of the Champions' type of scenario with a D&D style warband.

I can see there being some problems, and maybe it isn't a good idea outside of 'For Fun' games. However, as mentioned above, Heroes like Packmasters shouldn't count towards this. 

[Wraith01]

I honestly don't mind. Wouldn't mind if they change the rule either.

I like having lots of units. I have 8 Khorne Bloodbound Heroes and 2 of them would have to sit out every game. But I usually play at 1000 points which means I only get to use 4. For my other army the Stormcast Eternals I only have one Hero, for now, and can still have fun playing with them. Though I can't use them in the 3 places of Power scenario until I buy 2 more hero's.  

[Kramer]

I think the balance is quite good. We middled all the limits for 1500 as we mostly play that. The players favouring can get in quite a lot. The players favouring 'hordy' are also pleased that it is not just heroes they are playing against. 

On both ends they can feel a bit cheated if taken to the extreme but I have yet to see that. 

[deynon]

On 5/4/2017 at 3:19 AM, Galas said:

The thing that I most love in Wargames its personalizing my little Joes. Thats why I always loved bretonnia, an army that encourage you to make every-single-knight totally unique.

So actually, I spend more time in  champions of my infantry units, kitbashing them and personalizing them than in the Hero models. The fact that normally they sell those with 0 modularity and that you can't change them very much because then people can be confused of what hero its what, its a little meh to me.

I have spend more time painting and writing the background of the leader of my Bloodreavers than my Bloodsecrator  

 

But yeah, I think that a % can work better, because 6 skavens heroes that cost 400 points are not equivalent to 6 stormcast heroes that cost 1200 points. 
Then we enter in the debate of complexity vs simplicity. 6 heroes its more intuitive than 25% of the max points, for example.

 

Ok,but with percenage you abholish quite a lot of them too, much more. Simply learn to use them better or play thematic games

On 5/4/2017 at 4:54 PM, Sadysaneto said:

if you can summon heroes, you dont have to worry about it

totally agree and quite a lot are summonable

[Captain Marius]

I think percentages would not work in AoS. To me the whole point is you could face ANY model on the tabletop and it will kind of work. Obviously we're not quite there yet, but I love the fact you can fight greater daemons etc at 1k and have a proper chance of beating them!