Urbanus Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 Hey Guys I have a tricky situation for you. I play AoS with one of my friends. We have been playing warhammer together for 5 years now. The problem is I always win. Wellalmost. We have played about once a month and during that time he has won about 4 times. He usually handles it with a smile but lately things have changed. I play Bloodbound and he plays mixed orruks. Our latest game was nothing but him complaining about my "unfair" army and his "sucky" army. Examples include: Bloodsecrators should clearly be 200 points. Marauders should be 100. Blodreavers aswell. Khorgorath should be 100. Aspiring Deathbringer should be 120. and aparently every single orruk unit is overcosted by 20 points... He claims its impossible for him to win. A few facts: He is... Not the best general. Makes some bad call and is terrible at remembering special rules. Which ends up bitting him. He never forces me to split up meaning my units always have atleast 2 extra attack sometimes three. I cleave through his units in a turn or two. His list are not exactly optimised. Mine are. Ussualy I have a clear victory by turn three resultant in him giving up. So here is my question: What would you do? Loose once in a while on purpose? Sell my Bloodbound? Take some "fun" list to the table? Any advice is apreciated! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJetski Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 I don't want to be rude but if you're winning that many games with khorne bloodbound then your opponent is to blame Tell him to try using the Kunnin Rukk battalion with a bunch of Savage Orruk Arrowboyz to let them shoot twice per turn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allornone Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 Play with a handicap. Like 1500 points vs 2000. Sell it to him as a way to compensate for overcosted/undercosted units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyriakin Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 Sell all your Bloodhound and buy Scourge Privateers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urbanus Posted March 24, 2017 Author Share Posted March 24, 2017 3 minutes ago, Allornone said: Play with a handicap. Like 1500 points vs 2000. Sell it to him as a way to compensate for overcosted/undercosted units. Wouldnt that be rude? Seems like "talking down" to him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urbanus Posted March 24, 2017 Author Share Posted March 24, 2017 4 minutes ago, PJetski said: I don't want to be rude but if you're winning that many games with khorne bloodbound then your opponent is to blame Tell him to try using the Kunnin Rukk battalion with a bunch of Savage Orruk Arrowboyz to let them shoot twice per turn Yes the fact that he always lets me Buch up is a huge factor to my winning. That another problem he "hates painting the same model 30 times" (can hardly blame him) leading to small easily killed units... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaleb Daark Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 Since you are the better general could you not try to help him along with those kind of "what you could do..." or "you might want to think about..." suggestions. That way he then gets educate on the weak areas of your army in a friendly way. Also you could just try bringing fun stuff the next game, such as monsters and just cool models - that way he will feel that you're not optimised.] Or... how about let him play your army against you whilst you play his? That way he can see what his army can do from the viewpoint of another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vasshpit Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 Play a few game where you switch your armies. Mix it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allornone Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 Just now, Urbanus said: Wouldnt that be rude? Seems like "talking down" to him? It's exactly that. But in my experience bad players are tricky to manage because they very rarely attribute their awful win rate to their abysmal skill, instead relying on "that unit is overpowered, that one is undercosted, I have an extremely bad luck everytime". Those who are honest about their skill usually try to understand what they do wrong and become better soon or after. So you need to accept that if it's years that you play with him and he hasn't made any improvement and instead he prefer to accuse bloodbound of being overpowered it means that he hasn't the drive to better himself, so anything you do must be you coming down to his level instead of him coming up to yours. An "handicap", if presented in a certain way is the best way. The next time he whine about his units being overcosted and yours being undercosted agree with him and propose the handicap as a way to "balance" the game in order to give him a fair chance. If you present it as a fix to an obvious unbalance that he already brought up he's more likely to accept instead of it being a way to compensate the fact that he's just a bad player. This also has the advantage of not forcing you to make a deliberate awful list or to go easy while playing which would be a bigger talking down, and it allows you to still have a challenge and to optimize your list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkiham Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 swap armies for a game. tell him the things hes doing wrong as he does it build a list for him point out the weaknesses in your army ( we've alot as khorne ) point out the reasons for you being able to win so much help him with his rules ( i often remember my opponents rules more than my own ) as khorne against the orruks you do have some natural advantage due to the fact you have mass attacks and he has low armour. alot of his issues are down to him as a player & hobbyist , rather than his army. perhaps, for his own good you explain this to him. in a nice manner of course. ask if he really wants to play a horde army if he doesnt enjoy it, perhaps something like beast claw raiders might suit him better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chikout Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 Swap armies for a few games Just now, Vasshpit said: Play a few game where you switch your armies. Mix it up. This 100% If you beat him handily with his 'underpowered' army he will stop complaining about it being unfair. It is also a good challenge for a decent general to try and make the most of an imperfect list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urbanus Posted March 25, 2017 Author Share Posted March 25, 2017 Hey Guys. Thanks for all the great replies! I will try to answer all the suggestions here Switch armies: This is a great idear! I do wonder what will happen if he wins though... Hopefully he wont be all "see I told you!". I will suggest it though Giving him advice: This I do. Its just... A VERY slow growth. Remind him of more things : I could try this. Hes always forgetting his Match Play magic weapon and general bonus. Handicap: I dont know. I think he is too proud for that... Post game round down: I do those but again... It doesnt seem to stick? Playing more divers armies: Man I hate intentionaly making poor list. Its hurts my soul. Im an optimiser at heart. But I guess one try wont kill me! Be honest guys: Are Bloodbound a top tier army and mixed greenskins underpowered? Im having a hard time seeing it clearly for myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dez Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 I think optimized Bloodbound are really strong...but Orcs can be good to! Something to consider is giving yourself a deliberate handicap...but not letting on about it. Think about it being a challenge for yourself, the fight will be that much harder for you. I actually did this by accident in a tournament and still won, but it was really challenging and I loved it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allornone Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 My prevision is that if you switch armies and he lose again he'll attribute the loss to bad dice roll. The other suggestions are really good for teaching someone who wants to improve. But from what you said it doesn't seem to be the case. If the problem is his pride for the handicap you can either listen to Dez and don't tell him that you are playing with less points or try to convince him that's his idea by agreeing with him each time he whine about a point cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkiham Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 They can compete with the best of them. It's strong in a line up and smash face. It does start to unravel once the heroes go though, as with most armies. Khorne is so weak against shooting. Tell him to research your units a bit more maybe, For instance, blood warriors, wrathmongers, skullreapers, all hurt you when you kill them. Bloodreavers, horde unit with no armour, without battleshock immunity watch them crumble, they need the blood secretor. Aspiring death bringer, really weak hero, low wound count, average armour save . He should get a decent shooting block, not even kunnin ruk and just aim for your heroes khorne doesn't get better than a 4+ other than 2 heroes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galas Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 Khorne its weak to shooting yes, but if he its runing a meele centered mixed greenskin army that its unoptimised... well. Its little he can do. Its he running a Orc Warboss with Waaagh! banner? Its actually pretty good with regular greenskins units. https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls/aos-warscroll-orruk-warboss-en.pdf This guy. He should be on foot behind his lines of Orruks. The Greath Waaaagh! banner mixed with his command hability can make a big unit of punny Orruks hit surprisingly hard. Really, +1 attack with all meele weapons and rerolling 1 to wounds its pretty good. And, the keyword its ORRUK, so it works with Ironjawz and Bonnespliterz. And as a Extra, his model its ace Change the boar for a Mourfang ogre one and profit. The other sugestions are good: Switch armys, remember for him its special rules, etc... And if you can, go to play with other people so he can see another armys, etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 Keep destroying him. Then afterwards spend time analysing what happened. If He forgets things. Suggest He keeps a notebook with abilitys to use etcetera. Propose to build a list with him. Tell him to seek information online. If He wants to keep on playing matched play. He has to adapt in order to win. Otherwise play the base game without generals handbook ( rotate picking units ) In the end you might find That Your army simply is stronger, or weaker but Your improved knowlegde will make dicerolls more of a factor, eventually he should win some. Do you play with battle plans ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dez Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 I use post it notes to keep track of things, that works too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jharen Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 If you're running 2000 point games then try lowering it to 1000 point games. If you're doing open play then just use less units. The point being - let him get used to fighting your force a piece at time so that he learns how to handle each Khorne unit type, what its strengths and weaknesses are, etc. Keep your staples in there of course (like a bloodsecrator) because he needs to learn those are just facts of life when fighting Khorne. I find when playing against someone getting frustrated by my army that I can often build them into it slowly over time and they get a better grasp of how everything is working individually to form a cohesive force. That should help him pick your full force apart a bit better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauche Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 This is a topic I'm pretty familiar with and is very relevant to my AoS play so far. Bit of background, I am undefeated in games where I run my "competitive" list, both in random games and in tournaments. I get a lot of flack for my list, even on these very forums! The only time I get discouraged is when someone has a VERY bad reaction. This happened in my most recent tournament where my opponent clearly didn't want to play anymore and proceeded to badmouth my list to anyone who would listen. It was awkward but it is what it is. I've been playing minis for a long time and usually do well because I have a lot of experience and frankly I play to win unless my opponent doesn't want that experience. Asking what type of list someone wants to face is important, I don't agree with forcing a negative experience on someone outside of a tournament (personal philosophy). That will go quite far with not getting a bad reputation or ruining someone's hobby. I also always try to judge the situation. If someone is super salty, I just quietly pack up my things and keep to myself for a bit. If they extend the hand I'll take it but I don't extend it myself as that has gone poorly for me. If they're not so salty I'll get into a bit of a discussion, what could we have done differently? What are my weaknesses, what was I afraid they'd do? I never focus on "Oh your list is weak", I try to put it on myself and talk about the game as a whole. Generally when you point out both players could have done things differently the mood smooths over. Lastly I think it's important to take an L sometimes. I have much softer lists than my tournament one for casual play and losing with them is a-okay by me. It helps you not get salty when you lose for real, no one wins forever and someone is always better. It also lets your regulars have some fun, no one wants to be face-punched every time they unpack their models. That's my $0.02, hope it was of some use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrCharisma Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 I wouldn't suggest swapping armies or reducing points unless you had a strong plan. Both of these situations are likely to insult and belittle your friend. - If you reduce the points, why not turn the game to a Narrative battle? You can still take fewer models, but you'll also get some different scenarios. Maybe pick a scenario that favours him? - If you swap armies, talk him through what you're doing and why you are doing it. Maybe there is a model missing in his army that would super charge it, or using it in a different way. In 2016 I won 1 game of Age of Sigmar as I re-entered the system from 8th edition. It was frustrating as hell to learn my army, learn the objectives, learn my opponents army, and take a beating with a smile. I'm a competitive person, and while I'm performing quite well in 2017, the beatings in 2016 helped me with hard lessons. In my head, I made up secondary objectives out of spite. I just wanted to kill their wizard, hero, Dragon, whatever. Could you make this more of a formal secondary mission? Even if I lost, I found victory in at least killing a prized model:-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galas Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 Nothing helps taking a loss with good taste as "Maybe I die, but the Hero you spend 2 weeks painting its coming with me!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fr0 Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 You could ask him if he really thinks he'd win if you had to spend another 180 points on those units? I doubt that, he's projecting. People who shift blame on everything else but themselves, really ought to be centred out for the children they are acting like. I get he's your friend, and I've been there before.. it's a bit awkward having a friend rage out in a beer and chips game. I have a real good friend who used to toss his (pewter) models if they died, and often they'd break. He did often blame his codex, or the state of x phase (thought admittedly, he wasn't always without merit) but often it was everything else but how he was playing or what he was using. Anyway, he got a lot better with a few serious discussions on how disinterested I was in playing while he behaved like this. The sooner your friend accepts some of the blame, the sooner he'll start getting better at playing. If he doesn't want to get better, he's not going to and will continue to blame the world for his shortcomings. I don't think that Bloodbound are awful but they're not the strongest army in the game right now. Orruks can do well depending on what he plays, sounds like his list isn't very good. Maybe you can make some suggestions? You say he keeps forgetting rules, try to remind him. I'm sure in many cases it will help him win a fight, or make some sort of difference. Hell, tell him about this forum, reddit and the articles on the Warhammer Community there is plenty of advice to be given. Post his list, maybe some Orruk players can give some advice and you can relay that to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taketheskull Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 Nah, just keep pounding him and claiming more skulls ? for the Blood God! More skulls, always more, never stop, your tally is not enough, Khorne will never be satisfied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaaras Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 I lose a lot, and am guilty of some of that behaviour at times as well (something I have worked very hard to improve, but bad habits occasionally slip out). I prefer fluff, narrative gaming, where the outcome of the game may feed into future games etc, so I build lists accordingly. However, I play with guys like some here that build the best, strongest list they can because that's what makes them happy. It took a while to understand that and accept that its ok, and the fact that we look very differently at the hobby was a source of contention. I am fortunate that a couple of them are very good generals and helped me get better, doing a number of the things mentioned in this thread. I still suck in the deployment phase, and I am very susceptible to shooting armies, but hey, I prefer to run forward and punch people in the face. We spend a lot of time talking about lists, but I prefer to not know what they are taking prior either, and trying to just build something fun to play for me, that will at least keep it close. I have found AoS more to my abilities as, like the OP's friend, I have a lot of trouble remembering all the rules and with the advent of warscrolls and the online tools I find it is much easier to keep track of these things. Its a tough one for the OP. If the list is toned down too much, you lose your idea of fun, if you swap armies or do some of the other things, they may feel insulted. Can you convince them to do some list building with you to help them optimise their list to at least make it close? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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