Veterannoob Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 Just curious on some thoughts here. This is not meant to be taken as complainy but it is the Internet, so... Anyone who knows me knows I'm not a competitive player or a hardass in playing toy soldiers. Perhaps it was the impression I got from an admittedly smart player using a competitive build who knows his army well. I got the impression recently in a couple scenarios where the enemy had 2+ saves rerolling 1s and 1-2 more layer of saves after that. If I'm exaggerating then I clearly missed something here, maybe. While I don't expect an opponent to tell me his strategy and how to get around it, this was a...new experience for me. The games were not too enjoyable. Not going to get into specifics in the interest of politeness but just curious, what would you do if you ran into a situation like this? Even the "unkillable lords" in 8th had vulnerabilities. Please stay civil and constructive. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siegfried VII Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 As far as I'm concerned in Age of Sigmar there are always ways to deal with something or a specific list. Without knowing what you faced I can tell you that if he had something that looked more or less unkillable he managed to do it using synergies, artifacts and abilities/spells from other characters. So by taking out them you can deny him such combos and thus be able to deal with the powerful threat. Again if we had more information we could help even more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chikout Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 I am very much an armchair aos fan, but the mantra against units with good saves always seems to be mortal wounds or failing that high rend. Assuming you are using fyreslayers then flamestrike poleaxes seems to be the way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Jabber Tzeentch Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 Pretty much any unit in AoS can be resolved with the following process: • Lure in to a weakened position (I.e. out/in a price of terrain) • Remove external buffing (destroy or isolate a buffing hero) • Limit internal buffing if possible (-1 to hit for example to limit exploding attacks) • Hit with rend/mortal wounds as save dictates. • Otherwise feed it chaff 2+ rerollling 1s save unit must either be in cover or buffed so remove those from play and it should be much easier to deal with. If you have plenty of MW you don't even have to worry about his save buffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kramer Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 I think that @Chikout and @Siegfried VII are spot on. If he invested a couple of heroes/units with skills to grand positive effects to the same model he is vulnerable there. Because support heroes/units tend to be rather squishy. So I would try to bog the heavily buffed unit with a throw away unit (30 clanrats with inspiring presence kind of thing) while systematically taking out the support heroes/units. Make sure you have some mortal wounds output to just ignore his 2+ re-rollable armour save which he invested so heavily in Also another strategy against armies that focus on one death star units is by playing the objectives. You don't have to kill that one unit. Feed him chaff to slow him down. Or let him claim that one objective while you claim the other three. But would be fun to no more about the match? I assume matched play? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz Taylor Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 To me it's all down to a few things. Can I remove the buffs or can I ignore the unit? Removing the buffs is usually down to how quickly can you kill or isolate enemy heros as buffs provided by battalion rules there isn't a lot you can do about. Ignoring the unit is basically can I ignore it. The fantastic thing about Age of Sigmar is the fact the game is more focused upon scenarios to win a game. If that means you can ignore these buffed units or feed them chaff, then do so! Also with GW taking an active role in new releases and tweaking points, the days of having a dominant list/race should be long gone. A great example is the Stormcast Warrior Brotherhood which last week was a really strong choice in matched play but now isn't an option due to it not having any points. I also think going to a tournament you have to expect some competitive lists and players but if you are going for a laugh and to socialise, usually after game one or two, you are on the bottom tables. I remember the SCGT at the end of 8th edition and I ended up in the "special" room for my last few games and really enjoyed it as you had loads of space and it was a lot more chilled out. I love a competitive game but chilled out ones are fun too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHHaunts Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 As said. I dont know of any hero that can reach such a buffed state without outside help. Therefore the weakness lies in the lords "sources of power". Its the same as taking on empowerd undead. Ive rampaged round the board with a squad of 30+ skelies who had: +2 attacks for unit size, +1 to wound rolls for hero proximity, +1 attack for wight kings command ability, 2 pileins because of my necromancer using Vanhels and a mystic shield from Arkhan. Oh and deathless minions + ruler of the night traits allowing for save after saves. So i have 30 skelies that have 4 attacks each and can pile in twice (so eight each per turn) 2" range. Improved save with a "Ward" save after. On the face of it that seems fairly beardy however im sure many people will agree that a single necromancer, Wightking, Arkhan the black and 30 Skelies (and the rest of the army) isent a powergaming force. All those skelies relied on outside help and buffs. I played against one player who took them head on and got munched and grumbled because of it. and another who avoided the horde picked off the skelies from range. and took out my lords one by one. once he had he wiped my super skelies out with ease. It turned into a really close battle as while my power horde failed they had distracted him. He ending up taking the win which came down to a lord vs my remaining Morghast and him slaying it with 1 wound each respectivly. We both shook hands and admitted that it was one of the most enjoyable games so far. So not trying to imply your being a bad loser of anything like that as it can be unfair to "overdo" it against people that are new or casual but its hard to ask someone not to play compeitivly in a game where the aim is to win. perhaps you should try more narrative based games?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuneBrush Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 10 minutes ago, KHHaunts said: As said. I dont know of any hero that can reach such a buffed state without outside help. Therefore the weakness lies in the lords "sources of power". Its the same as taking on empowerd undead. Ive rampaged round the board with a squad of 30+ skelies who had: +2 attacks for unit size, +1 to wound rolls for hero proximity, +1 attack for wight kings command ability, 2 pileins because of my necromancer using Vanhels and a mystic shield from Arkhan. Oh and deathless minions + ruler of the night traits allowing for save after saves. So i have 30 skelies that have 4 attacks each and can pile in twice (so eight each per turn) 2" range. Improved save with a "Ward" save after. On the face of it that seems fairly beardy however im sure many people will agree that a single necromancer, Wightking, Arkhan the black and 30 Skelies (and the rest of the army) isent a powergaming force. All those skelies relied on outside help and buffs. I played against one player who took them head on and got munched and grumbled because of it. and another who avoided the horde picked off the skelies from range. and took out my lords one by one. once he had he wiped my super skelies out with ease. It turned into a really close battle as while my power horde failed they had distracted him. He ending up taking the win which came down to a lord vs my remaining Morghast and him slaying it with 1 wound each respectivly. We both shook hands and admitted that it was one of the most enjoyable games so far. One of the biggest things I've found is to try and get your opponent to play to your tune - the chap who fed his units into your skeletons is a great example of your opponent playing/reacting exactly as you want them to. 4 hours ago, Veterannoob said: Not going to get into specifics in the interest of politeness but just curious, what would you do if you ran into a situation like this? Even the "unkillable lords" in 8th had vulnerabilities. Personally if this were an opponent I played, I'd not be beyond asking how he'd managed to achieve a 2+ re-roll 1 save unit - but make sure I tackled it from a curiosity point of view rather than accusatory angle . I'd be pretty miffed if I'd played a similar game and came away wondering how it were possible and how I could counter it in the future. Knowing how the armies you face work is a bigger learning curve than learning your own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kramer Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 2 hours ago, RuneBrush said: Personally if this were an opponent I played, I'd not be beyond asking how he'd managed to achieve a 2+ re-roll 1 save unit - but make sure I tackled it from a curiosity point of view rather than accusatory angle . now that you mention it it does sound a bit weird that somebody would create a 2+ re-rollable save without mentioning how they did so. Even in the most competitive setting and the most friendly no pressure setting, you always explain what abilities you use or come into play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHHaunts Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 2 hours ago, RuneBrush said: One of the biggest things I've found is to try and get your opponent to play to your tune - the chap who fed his units into your skeletons is a great example of your opponent playing/reacting exactly as you want them to. Exactly. Hence my backup plan. One game i played my Skelies were such a threat that they couldnt be ignored while the rest of my army consists of self suffcient units (Hexwraiths, Morghasts etc) which usually means that they spend so much time halting my skellies rampage that even if they do succeed the rest of my army usually takes the objective (Whatever that may be) While i am by no means a fan of powergaming i think that threads like this are important as what i dont want is for people to confuse powergaming with "good strategy" and their in ability to counter it. Every strength should have a fairly realative weakness or cost if it has that its fair game IMO. Not saying that Veteran Noob is complaining about nothing though. As i would agree that you should obviously need to know how its done. 13 minutes ago, Kramer said: now that you mention it it does sound a bit weird that somebody would create a 2+ re-rollable save without mentioning how they did so. Even in the most competitive setting and the most friendly no pressure setting, you always explain what abilities you use or come into play. I was just about to say! I always (And most people i know) just get into the habit of narrating what they do even if its just a quick summized mutter. Not only does it allow the enemy to understand what your process but it stops me making mistakes and forgetting rules. and if all else fails i would expect them to ask. I even go as far as to give my opponent a brief rundown of my army. E.g. i played someone who hasent played in a while so i made sure that i mentioned the ethreal ability of my spirits and wraiths. To me not saying it is the equivilant of saying you going to cast a spell rolling some dice and saying that a unit is dead without declaring the spell. How is your opponent supposed to decide if they want to unbind or even if they are allowed if they dont know what it is your doing. There is lots of strategy in the game but IMO not being forthcoming about your armies abilites isent one of them. One guy actually refused to tell me who his general of even though i had a post setup ability that effected generals!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinros Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 3 hours ago, KHHaunts said: As said. I dont know of any hero that can reach such a buffed state without outside help. Therefore the weakness lies in the lords "sources of power". Its the same as taking on empowerd undead. Ive rampaged round the board with a squad of 30+ skelies who had: +2 attacks for unit size, +1 to wound rolls for hero proximity, +1 attack for wight kings command ability, 2 pileins because of my necromancer using Vanhels and a mystic shield from Arkhan. Oh and deathless minions + ruler of the night traits allowing for save after saves. So i have 30 skelies that have 4 attacks each and can pile in twice (so eight each per turn) 2" range. Improved save with a "Ward" save after. On the face of it that seems fairly beardy however im sure many people will agree that a single necromancer, Wightking, Arkhan the black and 30 Skelies (and the rest of the army) isent a powergaming force. All those skelies relied on outside help and buffs. I played against one player who took them head on and got munched and grumbled because of it. and another who avoided the horde picked off the skelies from range. and took out my lords one by one. once he had he wiped my super skelies out with ease. It turned into a really close battle as while my power horde failed they had distracted him. He ending up taking the win which came down to a lord vs my remaining Morghast and him slaying it with 1 wound each respectivly. We both shook hands and admitted that it was one of the most enjoyable games so far. So not trying to imply your being a bad loser of anything like that as it can be unfair to "overdo" it against people that are new or casual but its hard to ask someone not to play compeitivly in a game where the aim is to win. perhaps you should try more narrative based games?? Funny enough something similar happened when facing a sylvaneth player in my local store had a unit of 40 skeletons he decided to throw his kurnoth hunters at it they tied them up the whole game and ended up killing them. I had my necromancer buffing them and my winged vampire lord(along with command ability), varghiests and black knights handling the other objectives. He tunneled visioned on the skeletons he forgot about the lynchpins that actually make them a threat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kramer Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 1 hour ago, shinros said: Funny enough something similar happened when facing a sylvaneth player in my local store had a unit of 40 skeletons he decided to throw his kurnoth hunters at it they tied them up the whole game and ended up killing them. I had my necromancer buffing them and my winged vampire lord(along with command ability), varghiests and black knights handling the other objectives. He tunneled visioned on the skeletons he forgot about the lynchpins that actually make them a threat. But that's how you improve. And to take it back to the question. This situation is the same. The sylvaneth player could have tried to take out the buffing units first. And I'm betting he will have tried that the next game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevenM Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 As was mentioned above, mortal wounds or attacks with rend (even better if they deal multiple wounds). Even with a +2, he's missing half his save rolls at -2 rend (of course he re-rolls 1's but still). Chances are there's something buffing that character too which you could go after. Hope that helps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHHaunts Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 9 hours ago, Veterannoob said: Just curious on some thoughts here. This is not meant to be taken as complainy but it is the Internet, so... Anyone who knows me knows I'm not a competitive player or a hardass in playing toy soldiers. Perhaps it was the impression I got from an admittedly smart player using a competitive build who knows his army well. I got the impression recently in a couple scenarios where the enemy had 2+ saves rerolling 1s and 1-2 more layer of saves after that. If I'm exaggerating then I clearly missed something here, maybe. While I don't expect an opponent to tell me his strategy and how to get around it, this was a...new experience for me. The games were not too enjoyable. Not going to get into specifics in the interest of politeness but just curious, what would you do if you ran into a situation like this? Even the "unkillable lords" in 8th had vulnerabilities. Please stay civil and constructive. Thanks. at the end of the day based on everything that has been said. No one likes to be beaten/overwhelmed in this game and creating and overcoming powerful combinations is part of the game and without it we may as well all go and play risk. However based on what you have said it dosent sound like your being a bad loser but instead sounds like your opponent was quite happy to steamroll through you with powerful buff combinations without giving you much of an indication why or how. Which IMO is not on. As mentioned by others. The art of a good strategy in this game is one that you can show to your opponent and will still be very tricky to counter OR they can counter it only to spring another trap or fulfill a purpose. You dont have to reveal your every intention behind each move or your grand master plan. But stating the mechanics of what you are currently doing or being prepared answer about it if asked is common courtesy to me So in conclusion if this player of yours dosent say, ask and if he/she is funny about that and only cares about exploiting what the rules DONT say to win . . . . .Find yourself a better opponent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokyo Nift Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 All that needs to be said has been said here I think, but as a short summary, if there's something you can't kill, don't try and kill it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleboda Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 8 hours ago, Kramer said: Also another strategy against armies that focus on one death star units is by playing the objectives This. Too often we get lazy and ignore the clear design choice GW made wirh AoS - it's about more than killing. I'm guilty, too. For a quick bit of fun, it's easy to play "your half, my half, go kill" but it really misses the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veterannoob Posted February 21, 2017 Author Share Posted February 21, 2017 Holy Responses Batman! Thanks for the input. I don't think everyone is talking about the same thing as me but in the interest of being polite it's not worth going into details and cause drama. Pick your battles What I've learned is if I want to stay monofactions it's just something I have to deal with, come up with better options like tunneling even more to try and force way into bubblewrapped heroes or models that are fueling the insanely powerful combos. It happens. If it were a friendly game we'd discuss and work it out. An event game just hope the opponent schools me after the game is over. I did manage at great cost to kill some stuff but with the tools the opponents had I just couldn't get to objectives and contest. They were savvy players with extensive, powerful toolsets and they knew their game. We all have bad match-ups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoe Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 When I see tough nut units, I try to not engage them, or I try to mire them up with something inexpensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veterannoob Posted February 22, 2017 Author Share Posted February 22, 2017 17 hours ago, The Jabber Tzeentch said: Pretty much any unit in AoS can be resolved with the following process: • Lure in to a weakened position (I.e. out/in a price of terrain) • Remove external buffing (destroy or isolate a buffing hero) • Limit internal buffing if possible (-1 to hit for example to limit exploding attacks) • Hit with rend/mortal wounds as save dictates. • Otherwise feed it chaff 2+ rerollling 1s save unit must either be in cover or buffed so remove those from play and it should be much easier to deal with. If you have plenty of MW you don't even have to worry about his save buffs. In retrospect it should have been: lure player to the bar add 2 liters booze to opponent help dizzy, confused opponent move his models and strategy shield models--particularly pointy ones--from collapsing opponent collect models, then opponent from the floor profit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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