TGA Official Generals Handbook 2 feedback

[mrstimpson38]

I'd like to see a reserves roll system for reserves much like in 40k. And a deep strike ability for units like Khorne Daemons to allow fluffy mono-Khorne lists to deep strike in some daemons without a wizard. It's a simple enough to system in 40k, and feels like it would fit nicely into AoS.

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[Sleboda]

5 hours ago, Krieger said:

2.  A natural roll of 6 always succeeds

6. Units in combat shouldn't be able to shoot at units outside of their own current combat.

 

2. Isn't kind of a fundamental concept of the game that you need to get to a 6 after modifications for lots (and lots and lots) or effects in the game to kick in? And would it not stand to reason that a lot of balance/rules design/point gets based on this idea? Wouldn't tossing this rule on top of it have faaaaar reaching, unforeseen consequences?

No sir, I don't like it!

6. Why? How would you adjust the point values of all missile troops to account for this loss of an ability that was clearly part of the design of the game and thus these units?

[Krieger]

47 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

2. Isn't kind of a fundamental concept of the game that you need to get to a 6 after modifications for lots (and lots and lots) or effects in the game to kick in? And would it not stand to reason that a lot of balance/rules design/point gets based on this idea? Wouldn't tossing this rule on top of it have faaaaar reaching, unforeseen consequences?

No sir, I don't like it!

6. Why? How would you adjust the point values of all missile troops to account for this loss of an ability that was clearly part of the design of the game and thus these units?

2.  I should have been more specific. My intent was to hit and to wound rolls always succeed on a natural 6.

 

6.  The intent would be to create a counter for missile troops. Giving them the option to tie down enemy shooting by engaging them in combat.

 If the rules remain the same than most if not all missile troops require a price increase.  It's widely accepted the missile troops as a whole are undercosted.

To be fare all of the rules were made without the intention of using points.  That being said it stands to reason that the current points system is not accurate.

[Druchiilord94]

A thought on summoning. Why not make it so you can summon back units you have already paid for in your army list.

Ie I have a block of 20 skeletons which get destroyed during the game. So I now may summon up to 20 skellies to replace those I lost.

This would kind of give undead their necronancy spells back while allowing seraphon sylvaneth and chaos to actually make use of summoning.

[CoffeeGrunt]

On 2/10/2017 at 11:24 PM, Krieger said:

1.  Don't allow stacking duplicate abilities (for example double warchanter or triple Mourngul).

2.  A natural roll of 6 always succeeds

3.  If at any moment one side has no models on the table the game ends.

4. Sylvaneth woods and other warscroll terrain must be placed at least 6 inches away from objectives.

5.  Teleporting stormcast should have the same 9" restriction as summoning.

6. Units in combat shouldn't be able to shoot at units outside of their own current combat.

7.  Please improve summoning

8.  Please lower the points cost of sub par behemoths like Glotttkin and the Maw-Krusha

1) Fair

2) Bit silly, what about Saves? Some units get no Saves, and what use is Rend if it does nothing to 6+?

3) I really dislike this in 40K and I dislike it here. Some armies thematically fit with coming on from "reserves" as it were

4) Doesn't stop them popping up on top of the objectives anyway

5) They do, but a certain Hero nudges it down to 3", so your real point is, "remove this Hero's special ability,"

6) I agree with this one, though I feel shooting in combat needs rethinking in general

[daedalus81]

44 minutes ago, CoffeeGrunt said:

3) I really dislike this in 40K and I dislike it here. Some armies thematically fit with coming on from "reserves" as it were

What if it was 'if either army has no models on the table at the end of turn 2'?

[CoffeeGrunt]

35 minutes ago, daedalus81 said:

What if it was 'if either army has no models on the table at the end of turn 2'?

Makes the Celestant Prime a bit rubbish if holding him back risks losing you the game.

[Kaleb Daark]

I'd like to see some sloppy themes just tidied up, such as in the Khorne blood bound, Korgoraths max unit is 6 not 8, which I think it should be as it's khorne's number with slaanesh being 6's.

 

I'm sure that there are others throughout the various factions but that's  one that stuck out for me.

Perhaps summoning can have a distinction as said above with there being a difference between summoning to restore dead models to existing units which the player started the game with and paid points for like the skeletons in the post above, vs points needing to be spent to summon in extra units, which if summoned could not then be resurrected or some such.

The one thing I really don't want to see is masses of new rules and restrictions which will eventually mean a heavier system with more to remember.  It's what AoS got away from.   I also don't want to see the game become about which units are a must and which are just don't touch because points because competitive because whatever.  It's that sort of thing that gets factions killed off because nobody buys them due to tournament  etc. ineffectiveness.

At the moment I really enjoy just buying minis due to liking them and being able to park them on the table.  I never want to go back to wfb days where I would discount a model entirely because it was not an effective unit, cost too many point, etc.  but that's just me.

[rokapoke]

I think that in Matched Play any summoning spell should be able to regenerate a wounded unit of the same type, but at some penalty. So for instance, my unit of 10 Saurus Warriors has taken four casualties. I would be able to cast "Summon Saurus" to replenish the unit up to its original size (10 in this example), but maybe the casting roll could have a -2 modifier or something (so I would have to roll an 8 instead of a six in this case). 

[CoffeeGrunt]

8 hours ago, rokapoke said:

I think that in Matched Play any summoning spell should be able to regenerate a wounded unit of the same type, but at some penalty. So for instance, my unit of 10 Saurus Warriors has taken four casualties. I would be able to cast "Summon Saurus" to replenish the unit up to its original size (10 in this example), but maybe the casting roll could have a -2 modifier or something (so I would have to roll an 8 instead of a six in this case). 

Rather than full replenishment, perhaps D6 models. Full replenishment could be a bit silly if you lost 9 models and then regenned them back up to full strength. It also fits better for units larger than ten.

[zachariah_d]

Rather than full replenishment, perhaps D6 models. Full replenishment could be a bit silly if you lost 9 models and then regenned them back up to full strength. It also fits better for units larger than ten.

Spells that return models already exist for some factions. So there is a president. They could just add the spell to the war scroll of the summonable unit. That way the number of models returned and casting value would depend on the unit. 1d6 or 2d6 and 5 to cast for zombies for example and 1d3 and 6 to cast for spirit hosts for example.

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[shinros]

2 hours ago, CoffeeGrunt said:

Rather than full replenishment, perhaps D6 models. Full replenishment could be a bit silly if you lost 9 models and then regenned them back up to full strength. It also fits better for units larger than ten.

Yup, if I recall tomb kings already have a similar spell for their units that would solve so many problems with Death right now. 

[Gustav]

I have some Crucial feedback for changes to General's Handbook. 2 Crucial changes: Kurnoth Hunters with Bows: 180 points is way to cheap, when they have 5 wounds and reroll on the amor save. We are talking about a practically artillery piece being more cost effective as a tank, than normal battle line units. Mathematically the Hunters with bows are way out of line. Statistically no unit in the game as we are aware of can counter this unit on point cost, which is never the idea. All units must be able to be countered by something. The hunters with melee weapons at least doesn't have range, so one can try to deal with them before they get into melee combat. With bows, they outclass everything, which was never the idea. A good comparison are the new Vanguard Raptors. They have about the same damage and range and cost the SAME AMOUNT but the hunters kan take 5 TIMES the punishment. In melee we are talking about 60 effective wounds! That twice the amount as battle line units has per point! One is better off using a pure army of Kurnoth Hunters than actual battle line units. I think we can all agree on this was not the intent and must obviously be changed. Either by making hunter more squishy or paying a lot more for them. Hunters with bows, according to my calculations should cost around 240-280 points depending on what category of point efficiency you want them.

 

The second Crucial change to the Sylvaneth Roster is the Allegiance Ability "Navigate Realmroots". This ability has to get added the phrase "if no enemy unit is within 3'' ". I don't think is was the intent that Treelords/Ancient Treelords/Spirit of Durthu and Kurnoth Hunters should be able to Teleport-retreat out of combat, heal up to full unit size and full health and then get back in. At least one should be able to catch them on the retreat. The ability is already border-line overpowered as is. 

 

These two changes are somewhat crucial as they pretty much break the game as is. It's not cool when one must always house-rule these two things even in tournaments.

Other, less crucial changes:

Savage Orruk Arrowboys should cost 120-130 points, not only 100.

Seraphon Betallions are too expensive and should be reduced in price. 

Fyreslayers need help across the line. 

Tomb Kings need a nerf as well. Settra needs to cost more. 

Maybe Nagash should be lowered to some 800 points. 900 points is a bit too much with 3 rules of 1

[Mossback]

1 hour ago, Gustav said:

I have some Crucial feedback for changes to General's Handbook. 2 Crucial changes: Kurnoth Hunters with Bows: 180 points is way to cheap, when they have 5 wounds and reroll on the amor save. We are talking about a practically artillery piece being more cost effective as a tank, than normal battle line units. Mathematically the Hunters with bows are way out of line. Statistically no unit in the game as we are aware of can counter this unit on point cost, which is never the idea. All units must be able to be countered by something. The hunters with melee weapons at least doesn't have range, so one can try to deal with them before they get into melee combat. With bows, they outclass everything, which was never the idea. A good comparison are the new Vanguard Raptors. They have about the same damage and range and cost the SAME AMOUNT but the hunters kan take 5 TIMES the punishment. In melee we are talking about 60 effective wounds! That twice the amount as battle line units has per point! One is better off using a pure army of Kurnoth Hunters than actual battle line units. I think we can all agree on this was not the intent and must obviously be changed. Either by making hunter more squishy or paying a lot more for them. Hunters with bows, according to my calculations should cost around 240-280 points depending on what category of point efficiency you want them.

 

The second Crucial change to the Sylvaneth Roster is the Allegiance Ability "Navigate Realmroots". This ability has to get added the phrase "if no enemy unit is within 3'' ". I don't think is was the intent that Treelords/Ancient Treelords/Spirit of Durthu and Kurnoth Hunters should be able to Teleport-retreat out of combat, heal up to full unit size and full health and then get back in. At least one should be able to catch them on the retreat. The ability is already border-line overpowered as is. 

 

These two changes are somewhat crucial as they pretty much break the game as is. It's not cool when one must always house-rule these two things even in tournaments.

Other, less crucial changes:

Savage Orruk Arrowboys should cost 120-130 points, not only 100.

Seraphon Betallions are too expensive and should be reduced in price. 

Fyreslayers need help across the line. 

Tomb Kings need a nerf as well. Settra needs to cost more. 

Maybe Nagash should be lowered to some 800 points. 900 points is a bit too much with 3 rules of 1

How are you coming up with those numbers for the Kurnoth Hunters? A unit is only three Hunters, and with the maximum possible hits and damage, they could only possibly do 18 wounds with the bows. Even if they were shooting point blank into a unit, with the bows, Quiverlings and Trample underfoot all added together, that is only 24 wounds. The Vanguard Raptors you mentioned can possibly put out with every shot hitting and doing maximum damage 18 damage. Add in their Aetherwing companions you get an additional maximum six wounds. That is on par with the Kurnoth Hunters. Also, three Kurnoth Hunters have a maximum of 15 wounds per unit. The Vanguard Raptors have a maximum of 6 per unit. Where are you getting this 60 effective wounds number? Kurnoth Hunters have been part of Sylvaneth armies at tournaments and have hardly broken the game.

[shadowgra]

kurnoth can reroll saves, coming with a 4+ that means that they half the wounds they take from a - rend weapon. 

15*2*2= 60

or at least i assume that this is what he meanted.

Anyway kurnoths are OP imho, just too much damage/tankiness and too cheap points 

[BURF1]

20 minutes ago, Mossback said:

How are you coming up with those numbers for the Kurnoth Hunters? A unit is only three Hunters, and with the maximum possible hits and damage, they could only possibly do 18 wounds with the bows. Even if they were shooting point blank into a unit, with the bows, Quiverlings and Trample underfoot all added together, that is only 24 wounds. The Vanguard Raptors you mentioned can possibly put out with every shot hitting and doing maximum damage 18 damage. Add in their Aetherwing companions you get an additional maximum six wounds. That is on par with the Kurnoth Hunters. Also, three Kurnoth Hunters have a maximum of 15 wounds per unit. The Vanguard Raptors have a maximum of 6 per unit. Where are you getting this 60 effective wounds number? Kurnoth Hunters have been part of Sylvaneth armies at tournaments and have hardly broken the game.

He's giving worst case, you're giving Vacuum, both are misleading, worst case is closer to reality. Kurnoth hunters haven't broken the game, they're just really reall cheap for what they do. If a morghast Archai is 240 then hunters should start right around there.

[Mossback]

49 minutes ago, shadowgra said:

kurnoth can reroll saves, coming with a 4+ that means that they half the wounds they take from a - rend weapon. 

15*2*2= 60

or at least i assume that this is what he meanted.

Anyway kurnoths are OP imho, just too much damage/tankiness and too cheap points 

A 4+ save is only a 50% chance of success. Rolling again still is only another 50% chance. To even get the second roll you have to forgo any further movement for the turn, basically bunkering down. 

Edited March 5, 2017 by Mossback
Math error

[rokapoke]

5 minutes ago, Mossback said:

A 4+ save is only a 33% chance of success. Rolling again still is only another 33% chance. To even get the second roll you have to forgo any further movement for the turn, basically bunkering down. 

A 4+ save on a zero-rend weapon (as in the used example) is a 50% chance, not 33% (which would be a 5+). 

[Mossback]

25 minutes ago, rokapoke said:

A 4+ save on a zero-rend weapon (as in the used example) is a 50% chance, not 33% (which would be a 5+). 

Yep. I wrote that incorrectly. Should have been 50%.

[Nico]

Quote

180 points is way to cheap, when they have 5 wounds and reroll on the amor save.

They seem cheap in a vacuum - every army has bargains and overcosted units. When you try to build a Sylvaneth list - the Hunters are the ONLY bargain, everything else is either neutral or as much as 20% overcosted (which is a huge amount).

If any change is made it should be to the bow Hunters (only) who work too well as part of a Mixed Order army (aka Hurricanum Spam). It shouldn't be more than a 10% increase either.

One better way to improve balance is to introduce soft and hard counters in the new content. So for example Stormcast have a bunch of counters to pew pew in their Battletome as well as their own matching long range pew pew (which has -2 rend!).

Morghasts should be either cheaper or takeable as single models (which would help Deathlords Allegiance).

DoT's bargains are Gaunt Summoners, the Shaman and Enlightened, but all the Daemon units that aren't Horrors seem overcosted. I admit it's early days for DoT.

[Veterannoob]

stoked to see new AoS app today with new Fyreslayers points. It's made a HUUUUUUUGE diff. I'm content and anything else would just be icing on the cake.

[CentralKarma]

Sadly the new app also has 100 point Kraggi with the same old terrible warscroll  

Poor guy can never catch a break... 

[VBS]

My 2cent regarding summoning even if I'm no expert. But I don't really see a problem with it overall.

Sure you pay for a unit that has certain conditions to be deployed (cast it with an available wizard) but in exchange you get a advantage that regularly deployed troops don't have (tactical options and flexibility). Seems a fair exchange.

This page develops this idea:

https://aos-tactics.com/2017/03/06/summoning-in-age-of-sigmar/

[thediceabide]

Some minor points tweaks for BCR would be awesome! I think overall the book is currently fantastic, but could use some minor tweaks on points more than anything (and fixing Path to Glory across the board).

Since I'm playing Destruction, I'll keep my feedback to them (don't talk about what you don't know!). It's also easier to see what costs too much, rather than what costs too little, so take this all with a grain of salt. Oh and the requisite call to increase the points of Kurnoth Hunters by 40-60 points.

• Thundertusk Beastriders +20 points
• Frostlord on Thundertusk -20 points
• Huskard on Thundertusk +40 points
• Braggoth's Beasthammer -20 points
• Grot Scraplauncher -40 points
• Ironblaster -20 points
• Greenskin Orruks and Boarboys -20 points
  • Ideally brought in-line with Bonesplitterz wounds count instead, not really a GHB change.
• Nasty Skulkers -10 points
• Grot Wolf Riders -20 points
• Gordrakk, the Fist of Gork -80-100 points
• Megaboss on Maw-krusha -60 points
• Ardboyz naturally Battleline, -20 points
• Orruk Gore-gruntas -20 points
• Grot Fanatics size 3-6 for 80
  • Slightly cheaper, but higher minimum investment and must deploy/release together.
• Arachnarok with Spiderfang Grot Shaman +40 points
• Arachnarok without Howdah -40 points
• Gem of Seeing is just bad Battle Brew
  • Make it +1 to hit for any of your units attacking the target unit, not just the bearer.
• Blade of Vituperation is just awful
  • Make it +1 attack (for a single weapon) per enemy hero within 12". or...
  • +1 to-hit and to-wound for each enemy hero within 12"
• Collar of Dominion is cute, but compared to other items not useful.
• Battle Brew is far too good
  • Make it +2 to-hit/wound, but one-time-use, or...
  • Roll a D6, on a 1 you suffer a mortal wound, on a 2+ you get +1 to-hit/wound,  or...
  • +1 to-hit/wound causes a mortal wound, +2 to-hit/wound causes a mortal wound each turn for the rest of the game and exhausts the item.
• Oh and the requisite call to increase the points of Kurnoth Hunters by 40-60 points, and fixing Compendium Warscroll Battalions.

Edited March 6, 2017 by thediceabide

[CentralKarma]

For match play, I'd like to see a dogs of war category added, to allow for units from outside your allegiance,  that wouldn't disrupting the ability to take allegiance specific battle line.

In a vanguard game you are aloud 1-4 heroes, 0-2 behemoths, 0-2 artillery and need 2+ battleline.  I want to see a 0-1 dogs of war.

For example, If i wanted to play a spiderfang army, i need the Goblin Big boss as my general and he unlocks spider riders as battle line.  My list would look something like this: 1x Goblin big boss on gigatic spider, 1x arachnorok shaman, and 1000 - 380 worth of spider riders.  The requirements filled would be 2 heroes, 1 behemoth, and 2+ battleline.  If i were to add a rock lobba, it would be come a 'destruction list' and spider riders would no longer be battleline.  With the dogs of war category, I could take the rock lobba, and it would count in that slot as well as against the artillery cap, but i wouldnt lose my spiderfang allegiance

This makes sense in my head..... hopefully its clear here....