beasts of chaos Beasts of Chaos 3.0

[The Red King]

Side note for anyone like me who didn't notice. The beastlords base size was updated to 40mm with the new model. Might need to rebase. It's actually good for me because it makes him more proxiable for BoK if I want to try that (which I might).

 

Anyway I FINALLY got in a game tonight with the new beasts against a highly skilled tournament opponent running his tournament list (causal unplanned pickup game I just didn't realize I was going up against the number 1 ITC ranked sylvaneth player in my area). I only call it a quarter of a win because he was very lenient about my mistakes and due to the mission being lurkers below and me stupidly charging Durthu on HIS TURN with the doombull command (allowing him to strike and fade) he COULD have won on turn 3 by controlling all objectives but chose not to in order to have a longer game. The only reason I consider it even that much of a win is because by the time I sneak captured all 3 objectives (thanks to blood taunt) to win it at the bottom of 4 I don't  think he was necessarily trying that hard to win but he wasnt trying that hard to lose either.

 

What I learned is never charge a sylvaneth on their turn and unbuffed gors can really bounce off of things so maybe not charging everything in on turn 2 would have been a better idea. Contemplating dropping the wildfire taurus to upgrade ungor to raiders but I never cast it and I want to paint at least this list before I change it up so I'll try it out a bit more before deciding.

 

Chariots are not bad. I shouldn't have bogged them down into a castle quagmire but they still did okay and survived until turn 4.

[The Red King]

I keep wanting to like the direflock but after looking over it again it just has so many problems.

 

The fact that its "models can not issue rally and inspiring presence..." and not "units can not receive..." makes sense with the area the spell can cover but it means unless you tag the unit leader AND every hero/general/totem within 12/18" with it then the spell actually does nothing. On top of that it casts on a 5 making it negligible to dispel for your opponent and since on their turn they get to pick the order of things that happen "at the start of the hero phase" they can dispel it before using rally so it again does nothing. So you can stop them using inspiring presence on your turn IF you can tag every single model that could issue the command and you can prevent them using rally IF you tag every single model AND it's on your turn.

 

The second ability is good if you can get it around a bunch of heroes but again since its "models that issue" they can just issue most commands from the unit leader instead and it's only a 5+ on top of that. 

 

Potentially effective against really really dense castles I guess?

[Maddpainting]

On 4/1/2023 at 4:01 AM, The Red King said:

Side note for anyone like me who didn't notice. The beastlords base size was updated to 40mm with the new model. Might need to rebase. It's actually good for me because it makes him more proxiable for BoK if I want to try that (which I might).

 

Anyway I FINALLY got in a game tonight with the new beasts against a highly skilled tournament opponent running his tournament list (causal unplanned pickup game I just didn't realize I was going up against the number 1 ITC ranked sylvaneth player in my area). I only call it a quarter of a win because he was very lenient about my mistakes and due to the mission being lurkers below and me stupidly charging Durthu on HIS TURN with the doombull command (allowing him to strike and fade) he COULD have won on turn 3 by controlling all objectives but chose not to in order to have a longer game. The only reason I consider it even that much of a win is because by the time I sneak captured all 3 objectives (thanks to blood taunt) to win it at the bottom of 4 I don't  think he was necessarily trying that hard to win but he wasnt trying that hard to lose either.

 

What I learned is never charge a sylvaneth on their turn and unbuffed gors can really bounce off of things so maybe not charging everything in on turn 2 would have been a better idea. Contemplating dropping the wildfire taurus to upgrade ungor to raiders but I never cast it and I want to paint at least this list before I change it up so I'll try it out a bit more before deciding.

 

Chariots are not bad. I shouldn't have bogged them down into a castle quagmire but they still did okay and survived until turn 4.

Not a lot of experience into new Sylvaneth book actually, what is so bad about on their turn? 

[The Red King]

23 minutes ago, Maddpainting said:

Not a lot of experience into new Sylvaneth book actually, what is so bad about on their turn? 

Strike and fade happens on their turn. So he was able to fight first and then teleport away through the trees meaning charging just gave him a free fight phase into my bulls.

[Maddpainting]

Oh the wholly within 9" rule to teleport. Yeah I was thinking it was something else lol. 

[Fazhak]

Enjoying the new Beasts of Chaos. It feels even more like a skirmish game now, rather than a larger scale one, yet it remains fun. Part of that is likely simply a matter of point costs reducing the amount of figures on the table. Another aspect is probably related a bit to nostalgia, as the release of a new book is an opportunity to reflect on past iterations of the hobby and game. Fortunately, it is still a good time.

My current list leans heavy into Centigors, as I am finding them to be really quite good. I was a big fan of "smashmouth" Beastmen back in Fantasy and a maxed out unit of Centigors has a bit of that feel. I aim to deploy them on a flank, run them into a particularly troublesome unit or (even more likely) a block of battleline, and then pair their threat with an ambushing Doombull that charges in tandem with the Centigors thanks to my general's command trait. It is surprisingly effective.

As noted previously in this forum, the Bestigors might have been underrated when the book first released. Readers seemed to look for Bestigors to be either a hammer or an anvil. Their strength, as I think rightly observed since, is that a solid unit of Bestigor can adequately accomplish a bit of both roles. That block of Bestigor, which I try to deploy on the opposite flank from the Centigors, grinds up quite a bit while also being a dependable defensive unit.

Interestingly, the Gor unit is resilient, too. The Allherd trait is a solid engine for a well-positioned deployed unit, especially one that is meant to support Rituals of Ruin. In this case, Allherd functionally makes that Gor unit immune to battleshock, as more often than not that is the selection used by the Great Bray-Shaman which routinely accompanies that unit.

Dragon Ogors remain a dependable way to hold backfield or remote objectives and positions; their self-healing is helpful and their toughness can surprise an opponent. Likewise, opponents can be startled by the ambushing Beastlord who is suddenly deployed with 10 Gor thanks to its artefact. It is a small trick, yet interestingly effective.

Here is the list. I look forward to your feedback and thoughts. Until then, happy wargaming!

Allegiance: Beasts of Chaos
- Greatfray: Allherd
- Mortal Realm: Hysh
- Grand Strategy: Desecrating Brayherd
- Triumphs:

Leaders
Great Bray-Shaman (95)*
- General
- Command Trait: Bestial Cunning
- Lore of the Twisted Wilds: Primal Dominance
- Aspect of the Champion: Leadership of the Alpha
Beastlord (145)*
- Artefact: Brayblast Trumpet
Doombull (180)*
- Artefact: Slitherwrack Helm

Battleline
20 x Gors (220)**
- Two Gor-Blades
- Reinforced x 1
20 x Bestigors (400)**
- Reinforced x 1
15 x Centigors (510)**
- Reinforced x 2

Units
3 x Dragon Ogors (225)*
3 x Dragon Ogors (225)*

Core Battalions
*Warlord
**Galletian Veterans

Additional Enhancements
Artefact

Total: 2000 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 4 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 139
Drops: 8
 

[The Red King]

9 minutes ago, Fazhak said:

Enjoying the new Beasts of Chaos. It feels even more like a skirmish game now, rather than a larger scale one, yet it remains fun. Part of that is likely simply a matter of point costs reducing the amount of figures on the table. Another aspect is probably related a bit to nostalgia, as the release of a new book is an opportunity to reflect on past iterations of the hobby and game. Fortunately, it is still a good time.

My current list leans heavy into Centigors, as I am finding them to be really quite good. I was a big fan of "smashmouth" Beastmen back in Fantasy and a maxed out unit of Centigors has a bit of that feel. I aim to deploy them on a flank, run them into a particularly troublesome unit or (even more likely) a block of battleline, and then pair their threat with an ambushing Doombull that charges in tandem with the Centigors thanks to my general's command trait. It is surprisingly effective.

As noted previously in this forum, the Bestigors might have been underrated when the book first released. Readers seemed to look for Bestigors to be either a hammer or an anvil. Their strength, as I think rightly observed since, is that a solid unit of Bestigor can adequately accomplish a bit of both roles. That block of Bestigor, which I try to deploy on the opposite flank from the Centigors, grinds up quite a bit while also being a dependable defensive unit.

Interestingly, the Gor unit is resilient, too. The Allherd trait is a solid engine for a well-positioned deployed unit, especially one that is meant to support Rituals of Ruin. In this case, Allherd functionally makes that Gor unit immune to battleshock, as more often than not that is the selection used by the Great Bray-Shaman which routinely accompanies that unit.

Dragon Ogors remain a dependable way to hold backfield or remote objectives and positions; their self-healing is helpful and their toughness can surprise an opponent. Likewise, opponents can be startled by the ambushing Beastlord who is suddenly deployed with 10 Gor thanks to its artefact. It is a small trick, yet interestingly effective.

Here is the list. I look forward to your feedback and thoughts. Until then, happy wargaming!

Allegiance: Beasts of Chaos
- Greatfray: Allherd
- Mortal Realm: Hysh
- Grand Strategy: Desecrating Brayherd
- Triumphs:

Leaders
Great Bray-Shaman (95)*
- General
- Command Trait: Bestial Cunning
- Lore of the Twisted Wilds: Primal Dominance
- Aspect of the Champion: Leadership of the Alpha
Beastlord (145)*
- Artefact: Brayblast Trumpet
Doombull (180)*
- Artefact: Slitherwrack Helm

Battleline
20 x Gors (220)**
- Two Gor-Blades
- Reinforced x 1
20 x Bestigors (400)**
- Reinforced x 1
15 x Centigors (510)**
- Reinforced x 2

Units
3 x Dragon Ogors (225)*
3 x Dragon Ogors (225)*

Core Battalions
*Warlord
**Galletian Veterans

Additional Enhancements
Artefact

Total: 2000 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 4 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 139
Drops: 8
 

I personally can't stomach Desecrating Brayherd just because of the Jaws of Gallet mission being an auto fail with only 1 objective at the end of the game. The multiple missions with only 2 objectives on the board are bad enough but auto failing before the game starts is my limit.

I still have a hard time with Bestigor because they don't really look any tankier than gor with shields while dealing less damage. I know you can pack more wounds into a smaller area (40-60 as opposed to 20-30) but that's also less bodies on objectives and in allherd I expect you will get more than the 10 wounds back over the game. That said theres nothing that compares to a 30 block with 60 4+ wounds as far as anvils are concerned. I think they can be the better pick in a 20 man unit and are incomparable in a 30 but I'd rather run that in gavespawn to really make that tar into a pit the enemy will never get out of.

I can't speak to the centigor and dogors. I assume they're overpriced but I thought that incorrectly about bestigor too. The centigor dont seem far off the mark in either case. What benefit are you finding in a 15 squad as opposed to 3 5's for more benefit from drunken  revelry? Assuming your doombull gives out his fights last as intended of course.

[5kaven5lave]

Don’t suppose anyone’s got any recommendations for good third party Cockatrices? Or is it better to wait for the originals to come back into stock? Cheers. 

[Tizianolol]

Guys if I got 2 heroes in reserve, can I use 2  of our special "heroic actions" if they are different? Or its considered like one heroic action more, so I can use just one more of them? Thx a lot 

[Chaos Shepard]

On 4/14/2023 at 6:42 PM, Tizianolol said:

Guys if I got 2 heroes in reserve, can I use 2  of our special "heroic actions" if they are different? Or its considered like one heroic action more, so I can use just one more of them? Thx a lot 

You can only ever use one Ritual of Ruin action from off the board in your hero phase.

[Magnus The Blue]

Hey all.  I'm also really loving the new book.  

Had a game on Wednesday against the new Khorne book, which is strong but definitely beatable. I lost but mostly due to misplays and no knowing the Khorne tricks.  

Did make me thin about adding a Chaos Gargant (Skullcrushers with 2+ basic save is hard going) and I was wondering if they are working as well for people on the table as they look on paper.  8 move (and no bonus to ambush charge) seems like the biggest weekness, so I'm thinking of just deploying it with Slakefray general who can also stay close to whip them into a frenzy. 

With this in mind I'm wondering how people are finding the balance between deploying and ambushing units?  While obviously dependent on missing and opponent, so units are obviously better suited to one or the other.  In my last game I outdropped and went 100% ambush, but this felt like a mistake as I couldn't get any buffs up and ended up with congested flanks (Khorne's end of hero phase move didn't help, as it stopped me making a hole to get behind them).  

 

[Magnus The Blue]

Here's the list I'm pondering:

 - Army Faction: Beasts of Chaos
     - Subfaction: Allherd
     - Grand Strategy: Take What’s Theirs
     - Triumph: Indomitable
LEADERS
Beasts of Chaos Tzaangor Shaman (115)**
     - Artefacts of Power: Bleating Gnarlstaff
     - Spells: Tendrils of Atrophy
Great Bray-Shaman (95)**
     - Spells: Vicious Stranglethorns
Great Bray-Shaman (95)**
     - Spells: Viletide
Doombull (180)***
     - General
     - Command Traits: Slakefray Reveller
     - Artefacts of Power: Brayblast Trumpet
     - Aspects of the Champion:  Fuelled by Ghurish Rage
BATTLELINE
Gors (110)*
     - Brayhorn Blower
     - Banner Bearer
     - Paired Hacking Blades
Ungors (80)*
     - Brayhorn Blower
     - Banner Bearer
     - Halfhorn
     - Pitted Blade
Gors (110)*
     - Banner Bearer
     - Brayhorn Blower
     - Foe-render
     - Paired Hacking Blades
BEHEMOTH
Chaos Gargant (145)***
Cygor (210)***
Chaos Gargant (145)***
OTHER
Cockatrice (105)
Ungor Raiders (115)
Ungor Raiders (115)
Beasts of Chaos Tzaangor Enlightened (180)*
Beasts of Chaos Tzaangor Enlightened (90)**
Beasts of Chaos Tzaangor Enlightened (90)**
CORE BATTALIONS
*Galletian Veterans
**Warlord
***Linebreaker
TOTAL POINTS: 1980/2000
Created with Warhammer Age of Sigmar: The App

 

Big focus on Slakefay, with lots of units that love that extra movement and are happy starting on the board: Gargant, Enlightened, Cockarice and Cygor.  They then most of the Brayherd stuff on ambush for tricks and shenanigans.

If I wanted to go full.OTT, I could drop one Gargant and the Cockarice for another 9 enlightened but feels like overkill.

Planning on converting gargants as giant chaos spawn as I hate the model.

[The Red King]

3 hours ago, Magnus The Blue said:

Here's the list I'm pondering:

 - Army Faction: Beasts of Chaos
     - Subfaction: Allherd
     - Grand Strategy: Take What’s Theirs
     - Triumph: Indomitable
LEADERS
Beasts of Chaos Tzaangor Shaman (115)**
     - Artefacts of Power: Bleating Gnarlstaff
     - Spells: Tendrils of Atrophy
Great Bray-Shaman (95)**
     - Spells: Vicious Stranglethorns
Great Bray-Shaman (95)**
     - Spells: Viletide
Doombull (180)***
     - General
     - Command Traits: Slakefray Reveller
     - Artefacts of Power: Brayblast Trumpet
     - Aspects of the Champion:  Fuelled by Ghurish Rage
BATTLELINE
Gors (110)*
     - Brayhorn Blower
     - Banner Bearer
     - Paired Hacking Blades
Ungors (80)*
     - Brayhorn Blower
     - Banner Bearer
     - Halfhorn
     - Pitted Blade
Gors (110)*
     - Banner Bearer
     - Brayhorn Blower
     - Foe-render
     - Paired Hacking Blades
BEHEMOTH
Chaos Gargant (145)***
Cygor (210)***
Chaos Gargant (145)***
OTHER
Cockatrice (105)
Ungor Raiders (115)
Ungor Raiders (115)
Beasts of Chaos Tzaangor Enlightened (180)*
Beasts of Chaos Tzaangor Enlightened (90)**
Beasts of Chaos Tzaangor Enlightened (90)**
CORE BATTALIONS
*Galletian Veterans
**Warlord
***Linebreaker
TOTAL POINTS: 1980/2000
Created with Warhammer Age of Sigmar: The App

 

Big focus on Slakefay, with lots of units that love that extra movement and are happy starting on the board: Gargant, Enlightened, Cockarice and Cygor.  They then most of the Brayherd stuff on ambush for tricks and shenanigans.

If I wanted to go full.OTT, I could drop one Gargant and the Cockarice for another 9 enlightened but feels like overkill.

Planning on converting gargants as giant chaos spawn as I hate the model.

I personally don't care for the cygor or ungor raiders but they can easily have a place if you like them or your meta is good for them. I fully agree on enlightened being a great pick and have considered double giants myself.

Worth noting that one unit of raiders can be battleline since you have one unit of gors. No reason not to just to protect your GC's more.

If you're not going to use bullgor or the slitherhelm combo then I don't see much reason to include a doombull, his output for points is always going to be better spent on say 6 more enlightened.

When using a bunch of enlightened you can contemplate things that help them that might not usually see use. A beastlord aura, skullfray general trait, grashrak's warscroll spell, just things to think about.

Considering all your brayherd are min size units you might be better served with gavespawn but if you took everything I said I think you'd have a different list entirely so just pick and choose what thoughts sound good to you and I'm glad to hear you've been having a good time with the new book!

[Dolomedes]

On 4/21/2023 at 12:40 PM, Magnus The Blue said:

Here's the list I'm pondering:

 - Army Faction: Beasts of Chaos
     - Subfaction: Allherd
     - Grand Strategy: Take What’s Theirs
     - Triumph: Indomitable
LEADERS
Beasts of Chaos Tzaangor Shaman (115)**
     - Artefacts of Power: Bleating Gnarlstaff
     - Spells: Tendrils of Atrophy
Great Bray-Shaman (95)**
     - Spells: Vicious Stranglethorns
Great Bray-Shaman (95)**
     - Spells: Viletide
Doombull (180)***
     - General
     - Command Traits: Slakefray Reveller
     - Artefacts of Power: Brayblast Trumpet
     - Aspects of the Champion:  Fuelled by Ghurish Rage
BATTLELINE
Gors (110)*
     - Brayhorn Blower
     - Banner Bearer
     - Paired Hacking Blades
Ungors (80)*
     - Brayhorn Blower
     - Banner Bearer
     - Halfhorn
     - Pitted Blade
Gors (110)*
     - Banner Bearer
     - Brayhorn Blower
     - Foe-render
     - Paired Hacking Blades
BEHEMOTH
Chaos Gargant (145)***
Cygor (210)***
Chaos Gargant (145)***
OTHER
Cockatrice (105)
Ungor Raiders (115)
Ungor Raiders (115)
Beasts of Chaos Tzaangor Enlightened (180)*
Beasts of Chaos Tzaangor Enlightened (90)**
Beasts of Chaos Tzaangor Enlightened (90)**
CORE BATTALIONS
*Galletian Veterans
**Warlord
***Linebreaker
TOTAL POINTS: 1980/2000
Created with Warhammer Age of Sigmar: The App

 

Big focus on Slakefay, with lots of units that love that extra movement and are happy starting on the board: Gargant, Enlightened, Cockarice and Cygor.  They then most of the Brayherd stuff on ambush for tricks and shenanigans.

If I wanted to go full.OTT, I could drop one Gargant and the Cockarice for another 9 enlightened but feels like overkill.

Planning on converting gargants as giant chaos spawn as I hate the model.

Not a bad list. I ran something similar over the weekend at a 2 day tournament, but I had 9 Morghurite spawn in as well.
I agree with @The Red King - definitely double up your Enlightened. 6 Enlightened on foot are a pretty serious hammer, and the best output in your list. You'd do well to double up your Gor as well - 20 dual weapon Gor with AoA dish out some serious damage too, especially if you have a Giant next to them. It's also worth getting Wild Rampage on one of your bray shamans - exploding 6s on the Enlightened or Gor block really ramps up their numbers. 

I totally get the Ghurish Rage Doombull take as a general. My general was a bray shaman over the weekend, and despite bubble wrapping him, it was all too easy for my opponents to kill him. Losing that +3 move from Slakefray makes the game so much harder, especially if you're taking this much MSU. Doombull's command ability also gives a potential charge on the Cygor that can bypass unleash hell. Cygor is a decent pick in a list like this, as they can screen off some of your more fragile stuff. Don't be afraid to send him in.

I don't think you're getting much out of allherd. It's definitely strong, but on MSU 10 mans you're probably better with Darkwalkers or Gavespawn. Darkwalkers makes getting objectives and battle tactics super simple. Desecrate, Aid of the Wilderness, and Rampaging Beastherd are all practically auto complete, and you can get onto almost any objective at any time. You've then got cunning manoeuvre which is easy in Slakefray anyway, and then probably eye for an eye, against the odds, or the target a unit with ritual and destroy. Gavespawn is the pick for Slakefray MSU though, but you'll want at least 6 spawn to make it worth doing.

Having played a list very similar to this over the weekend what I can say for sure is that you need a bigger hammer in it. You've got the output here to kill most things, but you'll really struggle against a big hitter, which will eventually clean you out. Tzaangor enlightened on foot are killy and will go toe to toe against most threats, but they can't kill something like Teclis, Alarielle, Archaon, Frostlord on Stonehorn, a Mega Gargant, Kragnos, etc etc. There's plenty of armies out there that are running big hitters like this, which will probably kill 2 of your units a turn and leave you unable to score from turn 3 onwards. Bulls fill this spot nicely, but are costly. I lost 2 games this weekend because I didn't have an answer to Alarielle, but any other big hitter would have done the same to me. That depends on your meta though, and if you're playing tournaments - if you aren't playing competitively, then spamming Slakefray MSU will probably do you very well, because most people just can't deal with it.

 

[Magnus The Blue]

On 4/21/2023 at 4:34 PM, The Red King said:

I personally don't care for the cygor or ungor raiders but they can easily have a place if you like them or your meta is good for them. I fully agree on enlightened being a great pick and have considered double giants myself.

Worth noting that one unit of raiders can be battleline since you have one unit of gors. No reason not to just to protect your GC's more.

If you're not going to use bullgor or the slitherhelm combo then I don't see much reason to include a doombull, his output for points is always going to be better spent on say 6 more enlightened.

When using a bunch of enlightened you can contemplate things that help them that might not usually see use. A beastlord aura, skullfray general trait, grashrak's warscroll spell, just things to think about.

Considering all your brayherd are min size units you might be better served with gavespawn but if you took everything I said I think you'd have a different list entirely so just pick and choose what thoughts sound good to you and I'm glad to hear you've been having a good time with the new book!

I'm mainly just loving the Cygor are viable now.  Not convinced they are top tier but give a lot of utility for 210 points: solid shooting, good combat, monstruous rampage and chip damage on casters (which works really well with Bleating Gnarlstaff and ritual of D6 mortals to finish them off).

Ungor raiders I feel are almost mandatory (in competitive play) to let you peel away screens, create ambush openings and generally being a pain. Their damage output isn't massive but the flexibility is second to none.  

The Doombull is mainly their to provide a less fragile general, but also provides the option to counter charge with the Cygor, which is no Joke in combat. We have a real lack of survivable heroes especially with the Shaggoth being over costed.  Lots of competitive lists toss out mortal wounds that can get around GV protection, so 6W generals are lots going to survive on the top tables.

I have mixed feelings about Gavespawn.  The Spawn are cool, the aura is great, but so fragile with only 1" range means they are easy to pick off with shooting or weapons with over 1" range. Considering your giving up the other sub-factions in addition to the point costs make them unappealing to me unless your really going to build your list around them. Probably more of a grindy list, which I feel like we don't do particularly well with our lack of good armour saves or ward saves.

[Magnus The Blue]

14 minutes ago, Dolomedes said:

Not a bad list. I ran something similar over the weekend at a 2 day tournament, but I had 9 Morghurite spawn in as well.
 

Can you share your list? curious what you could fit in after nearly 700 points of spawn!

[Dolomedes]

4 minutes ago, Magnus The Blue said:

Can you share your list? curious what you could fit in after nearly 700 points of spawn!

Army Faction: Beasts of Chaos

- Army Subfaction: Gavespawn

- Grand Strategy: Protect the Herdstone

- Triumphs: Bloodthirsty

 

LEADER

 

1 x Beasts of Chaos Tzaangor Shaman (115)**

- Artefacts: Bleating Gnarlstaff

- Spells: Tendrils of Atrophy

 

1 x Great Bray-Shaman (95)**

- General

- Command Traits: Slakefray Reveller

- Artefacts: Brayblast Trumpet

- Spells: Wild Rampage

 

1 x Great Bray-Shaman (95)**

- Spells: Vicious Stranglethorns

- Aspects of the Champion: Tunnel Master

 

BATTLELINE

 

3 x Morghurite Chaos Spawn (Gibbering Congregation) (230)

 

3 x Morghurite Chaos Spawn (Gibbering Congregation) (230)

 

20 x Gors (220)*

- Foe-render

- 2 x Banner Bearer

- 2 x Brayhorn Blower

- Paired Hacking Blades

 

5 x Centigors (170)*

- Brayhorn Blower

- Banner Bearer

- Gorehoof

 

3 x Morghurite Chaos Spawn (Gibbering Congregation) (230)**

 

BEHEMOTH

 

1 x Chaos Gargant (145)

 

1 x Cygor (210)

 

ENDLESS SPELL

 

1 x Wildfire Taurus (70)

 

TERRAIN

 

1 x Herdstone (0)

 

OTHER

 

6 x Beasts of Chaos Tzaangor Enlightened (180)*

- Aviarch

 

CORE BATTALIONS:

 

*Galletian Veterans

 

**Warlord

Similar to yours - plan was to swamp objectives with MSU ******, and use the Enlightened, Gors, Cygor and Giant to deal damage where I needed it. Anything super scary I'd try to chaff up with Spawn and make it useless for the game.

 

I discovered in my first game that 9 Morghurite spawn do a frankly insane amount of damage when you group them up, so they became another hammer. My first match up was vs Nurgle flies - by turn 3 the spawn had killed 2 units of Blightlords and the Blightlord general. In my 2nd match up, the spawn killed a whole squig herd, even after it regenerated twice. Groups of 4 or 5 seem to be the sweet spot. Against elite units, you force them to split attacks, and they can only ever get 2 or 3 damage onto each spawn at most. They're not too shabby in melee either, if you run them as a pack. A pack of 4 will do 32 attacks at 3s and 3s, rend -1, which after shooting usually cleans something out. In Slakefray they move 13", which means turn 1 you have a 21" threat range for shooting. Spawn don't really have many weaknesses, other than a massive hero monster of some sort.

 

I've got another tournament next weekend, where I'm running my 9 spawn, 6 bulls with shields and 6 Enlightened. Trying to decide between going 9 Bulls for super killing power or another 3 spawn.

[Magnus The Blue]

20 minutes ago, Dolomedes said:

Army Faction: Beasts of Chaos

- Army Subfaction: Gavespawn

- Grand Strategy: Protect the Herdstone

- Triumphs: Bloodthirsty

 

LEADER

 

1 x Beasts of Chaos Tzaangor Shaman (115)**

- Artefacts: Bleating Gnarlstaff

- Spells: Tendrils of Atrophy

 

1 x Great Bray-Shaman (95)**

- General

- Command Traits: Slakefray Reveller

- Artefacts: Brayblast Trumpet

- Spells: Wild Rampage

 

1 x Great Bray-Shaman (95)**

- Spells: Vicious Stranglethorns

- Aspects of the Champion: Tunnel Master

 

BATTLELINE

 

3 x Morghurite Chaos Spawn (Gibbering Congregation) (230)

 

3 x Morghurite Chaos Spawn (Gibbering Congregation) (230)

 

20 x Gors (220)*

- Foe-render

- 2 x Banner Bearer

- 2 x Brayhorn Blower

- Paired Hacking Blades

 

5 x Centigors (170)*

- Brayhorn Blower

- Banner Bearer

- Gorehoof

 

3 x Morghurite Chaos Spawn (Gibbering Congregation) (230)**

 

BEHEMOTH

 

1 x Chaos Gargant (145)

 

1 x Cygor (210)

 

ENDLESS SPELL

 

1 x Wildfire Taurus (70)

 

TERRAIN

 

1 x Herdstone (0)

 

OTHER

 

6 x Beasts of Chaos Tzaangor Enlightened (180)*

- Aviarch

 

CORE BATTALIONS:

 

*Galletian Veterans

 

**Warlord

Similar to yours - plan was to swamp objectives with MSU ******, and use the Enlightened, Gors, Cygor and Giant to deal damage where I needed it. Anything super scary I'd try to chaff up with Spawn and make it useless for the game.

 

I discovered in my first game that 9 Morghurite spawn do a frankly insane amount of damage when you group them up, so they became another hammer. My first match up was vs Nurgle flies - by turn 3 the spawn had killed 2 units of Blightlords and the Blightlord general. In my 2nd match up, the spawn killed a whole squig herd, even after it regenerated twice. Groups of 4 or 5 seem to be the sweet spot. Against elite units, you force them to split attacks, and they can only ever get 2 or 3 damage onto each spawn at most. They're not too shabby in melee either, if you run them as a pack. A pack of 4 will do 32 attacks at 3s and 3s, rend -1, which after shooting usually cleans something out. In Slakefray they move 13", which means turn 1 you have a 21" threat range for shooting. Spawn don't really have many weaknesses, other than a massive hero monster of some sort.

Interesting, I just worry that any sort of area of effect damage or consistent shoot will decimate them in no time.  Definitely sounds fun though!

 

[Dolomedes]

2 hours ago, Magnus The Blue said:

Interesting, I just worry that any sort of area of effect damage or consistent shoot will decimate them in no time.  Definitely sounds fun though!

 

Yeah it probably would, but that decimates everything. Ranged MW output is a hard counter to any army. The play against it is to just close the gap as fast as possible, which should be doable with 13" move, or run and charge. Once the spawn are in combat, and the -1 attacks are working, shooting really isn't much of a threat. If it's looking really nasty, then turn 1 null deploy is your only real counter. That, or close the gap with bulls and charge in the combat phase to shut down UH.

On the point of ranged MW output - there was a KO player who quit the tournament after round 1 because he doubled the opponent and pretty much tabled him, with zero counter play. The player figured it isn't even a game if you can do that. His battle tactics were something like 'get out of the boat' or 'get in the boat'. He's got a point - if you can just show up with a gunline that deletes an army off the board with no counter play, it isn't really a game.  

[Dolomedes]

Army Faction: Beasts of Chaos
- Army Subfaction: Gavespawn
- Grand Strategy: Take What’s Theirs
- Triumphs: Bloodthirsty

LEADER

1 x Doombull (180)*
- General
- Command Traits: Slakefray Reveller
- Artefacts: Brayblast Trumpet
- Aspects of the Champion: Fuelled by Ghurish Rage

1 x Beastlord (145)*
- Artefacts: Bleating Gnarlstaff

1 x Great Bray-Shaman (95)*
- Spells: Tendrils of Atrophy

BATTLELINE

3 x Morghurite Chaos Spawn (Gibbering Congregation) (230)

3 x Morghurite Chaos Spawn (Gibbering Congregation) (230)

3 x Morghurite Chaos Spawn (Gibbering Congregation) (230)

10 x Ungors (80)*
- Brayhorn Blower
- Banner Bearer
- Halfhorn
- Gnarled Shortspear

9 x Bullgors (630)**
- 2 x Warheard Drummer
- 2 x Warheard Banner Bearer
- Cleaving Axe and Bullshield

OTHER

6 x Beasts of Chaos Tzaangor Enlightened (180)**
- Aviarch

CORE BATTALIONS:

*Warlord

**Galletian Veterans

TOTAL POINTS: (2000/2000)

Taking this lot out next weekend to a 1 day tournament. Hopefully it gets the job done. I'm slightly apprehensive about the 9 Bulls, but it's a dam solid hammer that can kill multiple units a turn. Hopefully spawn can protect them on the clap back.

[The Red King]

I haven't tested them so maybe its just a case of "mathhammer versus actual" but the damage output from 230 points of ungor raiders on average won't wipe a screen of 10 wounds with even a 6+ save with their hero phase shooting unless you also dedicate a warping curse and roll high enough. Yes they can shoot again in the shooting phase but by then the screen has already pushed out your ambushers. 

It feels like the blood taunt is "almost" always going to open the gap better without costing over 200 points. 

But again, maybe people in their games are just rolling better than averages.

[Hannibal]

1 hour ago, Dolomedes said:

Army Faction: Beasts of Chaos
- Army Subfaction: Gavespawn
- Grand Strategy: Take What’s Theirs
- Triumphs: Bloodthirsty

LEADER

1 x Doombull (180)*
- General
- Command Traits: Slakefray Reveller
- Artefacts: Brayblast Trumpet
- Aspects of the Champion: Fuelled by Ghurish Rage

1 x Beastlord (145)*
- Artefacts: Bleating Gnarlstaff

1 x Great Bray-Shaman (95)*
- Spells: Tendrils of Atrophy

BATTLELINE

3 x Morghurite Chaos Spawn (Gibbering Congregation) (230)

3 x Morghurite Chaos Spawn (Gibbering Congregation) (230)

3 x Morghurite Chaos Spawn (Gibbering Congregation) (230)

10 x Ungors (80)*
- Brayhorn Blower
- Banner Bearer
- Halfhorn
- Gnarled Shortspear

9 x Bullgors (630)**
- 2 x Warheard Drummer
- 2 x Warheard Banner Bearer
- Cleaving Axe and Bullshield

OTHER

6 x Beasts of Chaos Tzaangor Enlightened (180)**
- Aviarch

CORE BATTALIONS:

*Warlord

**Galletian Veterans

TOTAL POINTS: (2000/2000)

Pretty intresting list! I like Spawns, I lkie Enlightened, I like Bullgors.

1 hour ago, Dolomedes said:

 I'm slightly apprehensive about the 9 Bulls, but it's a dam solid hammer that can kill multiple units a turn. Hopefully spawn can protect them on the clap back.

Are the shields for additional protection? I built mine to bear double handweapons for more damage output, but I plan to run just 6 as a cruise missle. They will go in, hopefully kill something and eventually die in the counterattack.

[Dolomedes]

18 hours ago, Hannibal said:

Pretty intresting list! I like Spawns, I lkie Enlightened, I like Bullgors.

Are the shields for additional protection? I built mine to bear double handweapons for more damage output, but I plan to run just 6 as a cruise missle. They will go in, hopefully kill something and eventually die in the counterattack.

Yeah the shields are for protection. When you're running 9, you don't need the extra damage - 9 with shields will still kill pretty much anything in the game. The play with them is to kill stuff on the charge, then charge again.

When they get clap back, you'll probably lose a few, but if you take shields and have 1 or 2 left, you get a shot at rallying them back. Generally 36 wounds on a 4+ (or 3+ if you AoD them, which you will) can take a punch. 9 Bulls will usually go ahead and kill whatever the biggest threat is. When they're getting punched back, be sure to remove models so that they are out of combat at the end of the turn, so you rally them in the next hero phase. The general consensus is shields for a 9 block and dual weapons for a 6 block.

Edited April 25, 2023 by Dolomedes

[The Red King]

9 hours ago, Dolomedes said:

The general consensus is shields for a 9 block and dual weapons for a 6 block.

I promise I don't just come here to poo poo on other peoples ideas like it seems lol

 

Idk, the damage difference between shields and great axes is 7-9 wounds depending on the enemy save and that's not a negligible number. I'm really tempted to try shields and probably will because I'd love to have a 3+ save. Ultimately I dont feel they're strong enough to give up any killing power because for their cost in both points and list building they NEED to remove what they hit when they hit it. 

The real deciding factor for me is that my list already has enlightened who really need all out attack and Gor who really need all out attack (if you want to deal damage) so bullgor having the option to hit on 3's is worth more than just being +1 to hit imo.

More and more I want to try to fit Grashrak into my lists for his spell. I might have to test it and get back.

[Dolomedes]

16 hours ago, The Red King said:

I promise I don't just come here to poo poo on other peoples ideas like it seems lol

 

Idk, the damage difference between shields and great axes is 7-9 wounds depending on the enemy save and that's not a negligible number. I'm really tempted to try shields and probably will because I'd love to have a 3+ save. Ultimately I dont feel they're strong enough to give up any killing power because for their cost in both points and list building they NEED to remove what they hit when they hit it. 

The real deciding factor for me is that my list already has enlightened who really need all out attack and Gor who really need all out attack (if you want to deal damage) so bullgor having the option to hit on 3's is worth more than just being +1 to hit imo.

More and more I want to try to fit Grashrak into my lists for his spell. I might have to test it and get back.

If you're running a unit of 9 Bulls with shields they will absolutely kill whatever they go into with overkill. Only the most obscene anvil units with 4 or 5+ wards can stand it. I just rolled it out on my desk and I'm on 31 MW (including 9 from charge) without rolling any wounds rolls yet. 9 with great/dual axes would do more damage, but you really don't need it. Just give it a try yourself - roll out the attacks on your desk and see how many MWs you get and ask yourself is anything honestly going to stand up to it. If it does, it's almost certainly dead next turn. The beauty of 9 Bulls is you don't really need to use AoA to get their damage off. It's 9 MW on the charge, then 47 attacks where 6s to hit do 2 MWs. I make that roughly 24 MW on average. The damage is in the MW output, not the wound & save rolls, so you can save the AoA for something else. I've ran 9 bulls competitively for a while now, and I can assure you that they get their work done.

I'm totally with you on them needing to kill their target. I learnt this the hard way. I had a competitive league game with my friend (LrL) where I ran 6 with great axe in Bestial Cunning as my hammer. Their job was to kill Teclis. I did 2 or 3 MW to him before sending in the Bulls so it was looking like an easy kill. Bulls got the charge, did 6 MW, then completely whiffed their attacks. I only got a single 6 to hit, and 2 wounds through. Teclis survived and killed a few back. I lost priority after that, then lost the unit, and the game, because they didn't kill Teclis. Statistically that was highly unlikely, but it happened. Ever since then I've ran 9 with shields because the MW output is so much more reliable.

Personally I don't like running units of 6 Bulls because of the above. However, I'm in a minority here, and most other competitive BoC players I've spoken to will go for 6 over a 9, especially since the price hike. Generally you're sending Bulls in to kill something, and you want that extra damage output from Dual/Great Weapons over shields to get the job done. In a unit of 6, the pick is generally dual weapons rather than great weapons. The damage output is comparable if you look at the averages, with great weapons pulling ahead against lower saves:

However, there's much more to it than the averages (I spent way too much time working this out). At first glance, great weapons look better because of the built in 3+ to hit, in a meta where more and more -1 to hit is showing up. Also, you'd think that having a built in 3+ to hit means you don't need AoA to get the damage off. Great axes also have the potential to do absolutely massive spike damage if you get lucky and roll hot. Dual axe remains the better competitive pick for a 6 though, due to the weight of dice:

6 DW bulls roll 25 dice, where 6s to hit are 2 MWs (max 50 MW).

6 GW bulls roll 13 dice, where 6s to hit are 3 MWs (max 39 MW).

Because the Great Axe bulls are rolling fewer dice, you're more likely to get a duff roll with no 6s or a bunch of 1s and 2s, and your opponent has a better chance at saving whatever does go through. With dual weapons though, even at 4+ to hit, you've got a much better chance at rolling a truckload of MWs. More dice means more potential results, and more potential results means less chance of rolling the really ****** result you don't want. When you look at it this way, the bulls with shields might even be worth considering over the great weapons in a 6, as they've got a higher chance to roll MWs than the great weapons, and an even better chance to do it across multiple turns. 

Edited April 26, 2023 by Dolomedes