beasts of chaos Beasts of Chaos 3.0

[The Red King]

Just thought I'd get the new thread started since we're finally getting a 3.0 book and tomorrow at least 2 youtubers I can see have already got their battletome reviews (man reads book) ready to go! So I'll link those (feel free to link others!) and hopefully starting tomorrow we'll have a lot to discuss about the true children of chaos!

 

 

 

[Rors]

Oh boy, there's so much to unpack! This book is absolutely packed with synergies.

Some of the main take aways I see:

- the command ability for a 7 inches charge is great and we have genuinely terrifying alpha strike potential. Ungors can potentially shoot off screens at the start of the movement phase, or we can use a heroics action to pull targets into position.

- Ghorgons getting to pick 3 models to remove with 3 inches is brutal for coherency.

- Gavespawn spawn have a stackable ability to reduce a targets attack characteristics and cockatrices can make a target only hit on 6s. Combo?

- Gor, bestigor, and ungor are all a lot better.

- Razorgor and ungor make an interesting combo. Ungor have 25mm bases so they can screen the razorgor, who stay within 3 to then pile in with double the attacks. Ungor can flee in the combat phase to make room for razorgor pile ins. 8 attacks each at damage 2 is nothing to scoff at.

Edited January 28, 2023 by Rors

[Beliman]

Finished some reviews and really happy for Goatpeople! It seems that they have everything to make crazy gameplays!!

From moving enemies 2D6" to any edge, 7" charges after ambushing, crazy chip mortal wound dmg (rituals, warherds, thunderscorn), some bonus to spells for juicy combos, and any combination of attack-last/chain attack.

Not sure if they are going to be top tier (don't care) but this bool seems to be make for playmakers.

Edited January 28, 2023 by Beliman

[Grontik]

I didn’t check other regions but any idea why BOC didn’t get cards released with the new book? They did the same with DOK but all other books have come with the card sets. Strange …

[Clan's Cynic]

24 minutes ago, Grontik said:

I didn’t check other regions but any idea why BOC didn’t get cards released with the new book? They did the same with DOK but all other books have come with the card sets. Strange …

Issues/delays with the printer probably.

[The Red King]

35 minutes ago, Beliman said:

Finished some reviews and really happy for Goatpeople! It seems that they have everything to make crazy gameplays!!

From moving enemies 2D6" to any edge, 7" charges after ambushing, crazy chip mortal wound dmg (rituals, warherds, thunderscorn), some bonus to spells for juicy combos, and any combination of attack-last/chain attack.

Not sure if they are going to be top tier (don't care) but this bool seems to be make for playmakers.

I personally can't wait to blood taunt blight kings to the back corner of the table all game but I dont know if it will be any good.

 

Theres a lot of great debuffs and buffs but my gut instinct is that some of these points increases were a little too much.

 

It's like "oh wow there is 3 really strong debuffs in the shaggoth lore" but you'll never get to take more than 1 a game because hes 300 points.

 

Stuff like that.

 

I'm still super excited and love the army but itll take some getting used to.

 

HUGE disappointment that the god marked frays are now just a command ability that IMPLIES you're god marked but I'll survive I'm sure.

 

Buffed chaos spawn in Gavespawn is great since I've been using the amazing ruinstorm daemon brutes as proxies and they were a little too cool for old spawn rules.

 

Unlike most reviews I like the trumpet myself. The artifact is basically 110 free points and we are really hurting for bodies (in all my lists so far) with all the point hikes.

 

Cant wait to dive in more!

[Rors]

I think this army will have a lower than average win rate but that will hide the higher than average skill ceiling on the list. I get the impression that we have LRL levels of tech we can bring to bear but with so few models it's going to take a lot more thought than the regular army to play.

I agree some units like Shaggoth are probably too expensive. while I like the Ghorgons, I suspected quakefray is a trap. Cygors doing mortals is cool though, if you have 2 or more within 30 that really hurts a magic army but it's also too many points invested and I reckon you'll have a really issue if the opponent just brings iron jaws or khorne or something.

[The Red King]

I expect we'll eventually see some point drops as it feels like we got the points increases of buffed units AND the points increases of "we need to bring this win rate down" at the same time.

[Lord Krungharr]

All I remember from the Goonhammer review is I can make almost an entire army of Spawn, Cockatrices, Chimeras, and toss in a couple allied Mutaliths; WOOT!

[Vasshpit]

Shameless plug - small bundle of BoC in sales and trades. 😉

[The Red King]

26 minutes ago, Vasshpit said:

Shameless plug - small bundle of BoC in sales and trades. 😉

I suspect you won't be the only one with summoning gone hah.

 

I'm mad the skullfray has not only been reduced to a single trait but that trait also doesnt affect bullgor because GW hates me in particular. My gut without math is that bestigor are almost always going to be better than bullgor even before all the buffs the bulls cant get but time will tell if I'm just jerking my knee.

[Vasshpit]

@The Red King

I actually dont play or collect BoC. I bought for a small batch for a friend who wanted to try out tabletop gaming and opted out after...😒😄

Take trade as well. Pretty sweet deal. 😉

[The Red King]

3 minutes ago, Vasshpit said:

@The Red King

I actually dont play or collect BoC. I bought for a small batch for a friend who wanted to try out tabletop gaming and opted out after...😒😄

Take trade as well. Pretty sweet deal. 😉

Link it?! I'd love to get rid of some skaven I haven't been able to move (since long before the recent tome, just decided my favorite ratmen models had horns so why not go where my heart lay lol)

 

Edit: found it and as good as it is for someone new im afraid I'm all set on battleline but best of luck!

Edited January 29, 2023 by The Red King

[Rors]

Yeah it'll be a great time to pick up the army because lots of players will be selling off models since the points went well up and summons are gone.

Ive seen negative reactions but I love this new book. It's a complete overhaul on BoC which is honestly what they needed.

Time will tell how over costed or not it is but this army has A LOT of tech.

Anyway, for fun here my 2k list. I'll post a report up once I get a game in.

Gavespawn

Shaggoth, general, cunning (7 inch deepstrike) and gnarlstaff 275

Braysharmen, stubborn aspect 95

3 Drogers 225

6 Drogers 450

3 Morghurite Spawn 230

3 Morghurite Spawn 230

3 Morghurite Spawn 230

Ghorgon 240

Battle regiment

1975

General idea is start with a spawn covering any home objectives, everything else off the board. One drop let's you choose to alpha or give them 1st.

Braysharman pull screens out of position or targets closer. 6 Drogers land 7 away to smash priority target. Shaggoth can use his artifact and season spell to pile mortal wounds on an objective. Spawn clog up board space and defend the Drogers.

Edited January 29, 2023 by Rors

[Ekrund Oath Splitters]

Disclaimer, I do like the new book, but imma have a lil rant about points costs.....

I do feel like we got some unjustified points increases in areas where it wasn't really needed and the book was completely separate from the new GHB seeing how we have a few units that have 5pts in their cost. I think the Beastlord is too much personally, he is pointed in the heavy weight category of foot heroes like Tyrants (5pts more), megabosses (5pts less), chaos lords (30pts less), Marshall (same cost), Myrmidon (15pts less) and so on. He isnt anyway near as durable as the ones mentioned or fightier (except the Myrmidon) and if im honest his abilities dont equate to that cost too. He's a Chaos Lord without the retinue so I fail to see how he is 145pts, my gut feeling is he is 120pts AT MOST. Then somehow a Doombull is only 15pts more who I think is arguably better, same MW output, some damage 3 thrown in there quicker and tougher, a nifty charge in the combat phase for Warherd (so himself) and charge phase MWs. Hatred of Heroes I dont rate all that much, not only do you have to be in melee with a hero but also not have killed it so your either forced to make the hero fight last or risk loosing your Goatboss by not activating with him and whilst Call to Battle is nice, you can do the same with Galletian Command which also unlocks Sworn Bodyguard.

Then we are onto Bullgor, why are they 195pts! ******! They didnt get any tougher, they didnt get that big of a melee boost in reality, they lost a rend on greataxes, still hit on 4s with the same amount of attacks, went to 2" range, horns went to 2 damage and bloodgreed went to hit rolls instead of wound rolls equal to the weapons MWs, then charge MWs (which are quite nice on a 2+ ill admit). But then they have literally close to 0 synergy in the book, not a single Greatfray interacts with them, as The Red King said, skullfray does jack all for them, essentially what is only their profile is all they get outside of Tendrils and Wild Rampage. They are costed like Theridons (5pts less) with worse durability (1 wound less) and id say worse melee if im honest outside of Blood Greed, but Theridons can absolutely pop off when its their time to shine with 5 attacks each when Khorne marked (as Legions of the First Prince) and Savage. I dont really see where the 65pts is coming from, hell... Trolls only went up 15pts, think a Rockgut as 160pts is MENTAL compared to a bull at 195pts!

Im fine with Gors and Bestigors going up, though maybe Besties could be 200 flat but Ungor Raiders at 115pts?! I dunno about that personally! Now I like their Hidden Volley rule but its fairly well telegraphed being only 12" from board edges. Dont understand why the Jabbersylth went up when its basically the same but lost its rend? Just odd. Then onto the big cows... I think they got the Sylvaneth treatment (Id argue a lot of the book did). 240 for a Ghorgon?! Its a bit tougher at 16 wounds and gained some attacks plus its swallow whole rule got leagues better but it feels too much for something so fragile and same with the Cygor. Its paying a lot for its Soul Eater it seems which is great vs Tzeentch and Lumineth (if it doesnt get nuked into the shadowrealm) but against the majority of armies, not so much. A Treelord is 230pts so I dunno, it feels like theyve gone up 20-40pts too much, I still think they will turn into beef cutlets too quickly.

Now this is just me but it really seems like its Battletome Brayherd, and Slaangor are the new Bullgor. 65pts cheaper, not that more fragile (only 3 wounds less overall at starting strength), more accurate in melee, quicker with a higher ceiling when it comes to damage, I guess itll all depend on if they are Brayherd like Tzaangor, because then itll be real Nutty. Speaking of Tzaangor, if they keep brayherd, Skullfray is going to be mental with them especially Enlightened! +1 attack to all melee weapons is insane on multi weapon profile units but it does feel rather unfluffy haveing Tzeentch marked units getting buffed by Khorne. 🤔

Sorry for the long ranting post guys, may seem like im hating on the book already before its out and jumping the gun quickly. I honestly do like the book for the most part, im glad summoning is gone, I love that the goats have had a face lift and that Gor are now relevant instead of being benched by Ungor, love the new spells, rituals and ambush! Im just confused by the degree that the points have gone up. I was fully expecting 25ish percentage across the board but its looking like an average of 40%? Which when we havent really gotten tougher (outside of Bestigor and Shielded Gor). For example my group is doing a new season of Path to Glory, my 750pt list has shot up by 390pts, whilst the Gloomspite Gitz player only had an increase of 10pts, to me thats INSANE and at a push he said his list he was planning has gone up 100pts maximum and hes taking Squigs.

I really think something has been lost in communication where it comes to our pts, but thats just my thoughts, feel free to disagree with me and tell me im wrong haha! 😅 again sorry guys for the huge post, I dont talk often in this chat until im roused to war... 😆

Edited January 29, 2023 by Ekrund Oath Splitters

[Myrdin]

4 hours ago, Ekrund Oath Splitters said:

Disclaimer, I do like the new book, but imma have a lil rant about points costs.....

I do feel like we got some unjustified points increases in areas where it wasn't really needed and the book was completely separate from the new GHB seeing how we have a few units that have 5pts in their cost. I think the Beastlord is too much personally, he is pointed in the heavy weight category of foot heroes like Tyrants (5pts more), megabosses (5pts less), chaos lords (30pts less), Marshall (same cost), Myrmidon (15pts less) and so on. He isnt anyway near as durable as the ones mentioned or fightier (except the Myrmidon) and if im honest his abilities dont equate to that cost too. He's a Chaos Lord without the retinue so I fail to see how he is 145pts, my gut feeling is he is 120pts AT MOST. Then somehow a Doombull is only 15pts more who I think is arguably better, same MW output, some damage 3 thrown in there quicker and tougher, a nifty charge in the combat phase for Warherd (so himself) and charge phase MWs. Hatred of Heroes I dont rate all that much, not only do you have to be in melee with a hero but also not have killed it so your either forced to make the hero fight last or risk loosing your Goatboss by not activating with him and whilst Call to Battle is nice, you can do the same with Galletian Command which also unlocks Sworn Bodyguard.

Then we are onto Bullgor, why are they 195pts! ******! They didnt get any tougher, they didnt get that big of a melee boost in reality, they lost a rend on greataxes, still hit on 4s with the same amount of attacks, went to 2" range, horns went to 2 damage and bloodgreed went to hit rolls instead of wound rolls equal to the weapons MWs, then charge MWs (which are quite nice on a 2+ ill admit). But then they have literally close to 0 synergy in the book, not a single Greatfray interacts with them, as The Red King said, skullfray does jack all for them, essentially what is only their profile is all they get outside of Tendrils and Wild Rampage. They are costed like Theridons (5pts less) with worse durability (1 wound less) and id say worse melee if im honest outside of Blood Greed, but Theridons can absolutely pop off when its their time to shine with 5 attacks each when Khorne marked (as Legions of the First Prince) and Savage. I dont really see where the 65pts is coming from, hell... Trolls only went up 15pts, think a Rockgut as 160pts is MENTAL compared to a bull at 195pts!

Im fine with Gors and Bestigors going up, though maybe Besties could be 200 flat but Ungor Raiders at 115pts?! I dunno about that personally! Now I like their Hidden Volley rule but its fairly well telegraphed being only 12" from board edges. Dont understand why the Jabbersylth went up when its basically the same but lost its rend? Just odd. Then onto the big cows... I think they got the Sylvaneth treatment (Id argue a lot of the book did). 240 for a Ghorgon?! Its a bit tougher at 16 wounds and gained some attacks plus its swallow whole rule got leagues better but it feels too much for something so fragile and same with the Cygor. Its paying a lot for its Soul Eater it seems which is great vs Tzeentch and Lumineth (if it doesnt get nuked into the shadowrealm) but against the majority of armies, not so much. A Treelord is 230pts so I dunno, it feels like theyve gone up 20-40pts too much, I still think they will turn into beef cutlets too quickly.

Now this is just me but it really seems like its Battletome Brayherd, and Slaangor are the new Bullgor. 65pts cheaper, not that more fragile (only 3 wounds less overall at starting strength), more accurate in melee, quicker with a higher ceiling when it comes to damage, I guess itll all depend on if they are Brayherd like Tzaangor, because then itll be real Nutty. Speaking of Tzaangor, if they keep brayherd, Skullfray is going to be mental with them especially Enlightened! +1 attack to all melee weapons is insane on multi weapon profile units but it does feel rather unfluffy haveing Tzeentch marked units getting buffed by Khorne. 🤔

Sorry for the long ranting post guys, may seem like im hating on the book already before its out and jumping the gun quickly. I honestly do like the book for the most part, im glad summoning is gone, I love that the goats have had a face lift and that Gor are now relevant instead of being benched by Ungor, love the new spells, rituals and ambush! Im just confused by the degree that the points have gone up. I was fully expecting 25ish percentage across the board but its looking like an average of 40%? Which when we havent really gotten tougher (outside of Bestigor and Shielded Gor). For example my group is doing a new season of Path to Glory, my 750pt list has shot up by 390pts, whilst the Gloomspite Gitz player only had an increase of 10pts, to me thats INSANE and at a push he said his list he was planning has gone up 100pts maximum and hes taking Squigs.

I really think something has been lost in communication where it comes to our pts, but thats just my thoughts, feel free to disagree with me and tell me im wrong haha! 😅 again sorry guys for the huge post, I dont talk often in this chat until im roused to war... 😆

Agree.

The entire way the army is played has been changed into something untested yet, and then they slapped massive price increases on almost all existing stuff, while nerfing a lot and improving little. Frankly all of this is because how stupidly OP they made Herdstone in that WD update. But instead of fine tuning it to be less powerful they not only nerfed herdstone itself, they also nerfed global rend for many of our units as well as jumped the prices up. Not saying the new book is all bad, but its a far cry from what I was hoping for.

Funny enough, ranged attack on Centigors is one of the small things I was hoping for and we got that haha. To bad they completely gave us the middle finger as far as new miniatures go. The Centigors, Shaggoth and Razorgors are way overdue, and the rest of the sculpts while still holding strong could use some dynamic reposing and uplifting like what they did with STD basic warriors.

[Lupercal]

4 hours ago, Myrdin said:

Frankly all of this is because how stupidly OP they made Herdstone in that WD update. But instead of fine tuning it to be less powerful they not only nerfed herdstone itself, they also nerfed global rend for many of our units as well as jumped the prices up. Not saying the new book is all bad, but its a far cry from what I was hoping for.

The book looks SUPER interesting, but this and what feels like MASSIVE points hikes are my two biggest concerns. I really struggle to understand why they nerfed Rend on so many warscrolls AFTER the Herdstone nerf. One or the other feels like it would have been adequate, but both?

[Beliman]

If the main issue was keyword incompatibility, absurd mechanics, boring sinergies, meh battle-traits,... that would be a problem. But if it's just points, yes, it sucks, but we already know that points are going to change every few months, so, there is a lot of room to improve.

Let's see how good the Goatpeople are on the table and if they can stay within 45-55 as Matt wants to achieve.

[pnkdth]

1 minute ago, Beliman said:

If the main issue was keyword incompatibility, absurd mechanics, boring sinergies, meh battle-traits,... that would be a problem. But if it's just points, yes, it sucks, but we already know that points are going to change every few months, so, there is a lot of room to improve.

I remember such optimism on the HoS boards. Only took them about 2 years to get around to fixing it (the battlescroll wasn't in effect back then though). Moral of the story, just because they can doesn't mean they will. Even if they do something doesn't mean they'll actually fix the right unit(s). It seems it takes *A LOT* of convincing, in addition to crashing spectacularly in the meta, for them to admit to mistakes.

Though as you say, the book might just work out once things are put into practice.

[Beliman]

15 minutes ago, pnkdth said:

I remember such optimism on the HoS boards.

That's exactly my point!

I wanted to start HoS but their rules were horrible. Even after big points cut, their rules still sucks: meh subfactions, meh artifacts, meh shenanigans or tricks to play, their most unique ability was about giving more command traits, battletraits are so generic... 

And all of this will not be fixe'd with points

[Rors]

HoS can't be fixed with points alone because their rules don't have enough synergies.

BoC has one of the most layered books I've ever read. As with any book the internal ballance isn't perfect, there's definitely some losers. That said, even with how expensive the army is I think it's actually ridiculous what it can pull off.

BoC have more control and debuff tech then any book out there right now. We can move the opponents models, multiple ways to slow the opponent, multiple ways to reduce characteristics their attack profiles. Multiple ways to hand out always strike last. So many cool warscrolls, cockatrices making people only hit on 6s is nuts. Razorgor are absurd counter chargers behind screens of ungor.

I think this book will on average, loose more than it wins however I think that's because the skill ceiling on actually getting the most out of this book is way higher than normal.

Points will shift but if they brought this book down in points so that the average player is going 50/50 in games, the top players are going to utterly wreck people.

All that said, there are definitely some duds. Beast lord isn't appealing to me at all. Also, for many players who built there armies last book, having half or more become redundant because of points hikes shrinking the total army size will be a negative play experience during the list building stage for awhile.

I think the Gitz book is actually a good comparison because it's also extremely heavy on layering of rules but they went the other way and priced the points so that the average player has a good chance without using them properly.

Edited January 29, 2023 by Rors

[Lupercal]

How hard is this book going to end up crutching on going second in Turn 1, Ambushing most of their list, then keying for the double-turn into turn 2 once the Herdstone goes live?

As someone who loathes the double-turn mechanic, I would hate for that to become “the thing”?

 

[Rors]

7 hours ago, Lupercal said:

How hard is this book going to end up crutching on going second in Turn 1, Ambushing most of their list, then keying for the double-turn into turn 2 once the Herdstone goes live?

As someone who loathes the double-turn mechanic, I would hate for that to become “the thing”?

 

It'll really depend on how much players lean into ambush. Even then, ambush lists want MSU and it's hard to MSU and one drop.

Also gors and a few other units really want to fight in two ranks so they won't one drop. The subfaction that teleports each turn isn't going to care about drops either.

It's entirely possible the best lists will have high drops, a single hammer that drops in from 7, and maybe a couple screens/objective grabbers that come in round 2.

Quakefrey is probably the biggest contender for battle regiment as Ghorgons and Cygors are squishy and making the battleline opens up the option.

Lastly, we have some of the best screens in the game still even though points went up in ungors. In allherd they can be spaces out like the skaven clanrat trick to be 1 inch apart and create huge walls without fear of loosing coherency.

In short, while you could 100% make a competitive list based around ambush and turn priority, I don't think beats are going to be forced in that direction.

 

[JerekKruger]

11 hours ago, Beliman said:

That's exactly my point!

I wanted to start HoS but their rules were horrible. Even after big points cut, their rules still sucks: meh subfactions, meh artifacts, meh shenanigans or tricks to play, their most unique ability was about giving more command traits, battletraits are so generic... 

And all of this will not be fixe'd with points

Yep, there's basically no way to fix current HoS with points alone, their rules are just bad.

It sounds like BoC have the opposite problem, which is the best problem to have (other than no problem I guess).

[Koala]

I recon i will have a few games with the new book before voicing complaints. 

AoS 3.0 clearly wants to reduce the amount of models on the battlefield, so i always expected the points to rise. 

At least there are nice new rules/stats to justify this. BoC were a bit bland before. 

Who knows, maybe Cygor will finally be a valid tech choice against caster armies