beasts of chaos Beasts of Chaos 3.0

[Dolomedes]

I'm really excited to play them. Sure, the points increases really sting, but I really like the look of all the cool Skirmishing units we have now. I think stacking up all the little 8" range attacks we have whilst setting up our big charges will be key.

Centigors and Chariots look like the units for me.

[willange]

I'm definitely interested to try these changes.  I agree that some of the increases seem like too much (coupled with the herdstone nerf), but I can also see this book working decently well in many other respects.  Certainly not EVERY unit is overcosted, so we may just not be playing with all our scrolls till points fixes come in.  Being able to ambush with the entire army is also pretty cool in the sense that you can overload 1 side after seeing your opponent deploy to minimize how much of their list can actually participate in the 1st round or two.  Obviously, that might make objectives a little hard, but if you overwhelm early enough maybe that doesn't matter.  I don't know, it will be fun to try!

[pnkdth]

23 hours ago, Beliman said:

That's exactly my point!

I wanted to start HoS but their rules were horrible. Even after big points cut, their rules still sucks: meh subfactions, meh artifacts, meh shenanigans or tricks to play, their most unique ability was about giving more command traits, battletraits are so generic... 

And all of this will not be fixe'd with points

Good points. Now if you will excuse me I'm going on a crusade to gather as much hopium I can for the new (supposed) hedonite book later this year. 😅

[Satyrical Sophist]

3 hours ago, pnkdth said:

Good points. Now if you will excuse me I'm going on a crusade to gather as much hopium I can for the new (supposed) hedonite book later this year. 😅

I think Hedonites is almost guaranteed in spring if it helps. There are two chaos, two death and an order book to come out before seraphon in summer. 

Currently the factions without 3rd ed books are.

Chaos - Khorne

Chaos - Slaanesh.

Death - Bonereapers

Death - Flesh Eater Courts.

Death - Soul Blight 

Order - Cities of Sigmar

Order - Kharadrons.

Soulblight are more or less 3rd ed already, and Cities is getting a faceswap for Dawnbringers. Unless they are adding a new faction in, everything else is getting a book before summer.

 

As for BoC, I did have an eye watering response to the points changes, but there does seem to be some really very powerful things you can do, to the point where I'm a little bit concerned it might be unfun. Stopping a pile in with an easy to cast spell where you can get + to cast for the turn order is sort of nuts! Tag a unit with a just grazing unit and you can look it down for potentially two turns in a row with one spell. Focus a redonkulous amout of debuffs on another threat and slam into it with your fast moving threat. Vs some slow moving lists you can keep whole units from ever doing anything significant by having a shaman force them to go 2d6 towards the battlefield edge with the off board ritual of ruin. If you only take one mortal wound off it, you can do it for a second turn in a row without risking dying, if you take more than one then ambush on the shaman and a unit of ungor and pull that unit back again. 

Losing summoning hurts in one sense, but the shear number of units that it was optimal to bring was insane! I know I lost games because I didn't have another unit of ungor to summon, or centigor or whatever.

It may well be that points are too high, but I do understand why they seem to have been cautious.

 

[Magnus The Blue]

10 hours ago, Satyrical Sophist said:

As for BoC, I did have an eye watering response to the points changes, but there does seem to be some really very powerful things you can do, to the point where I'm a little bit concerned it might be unfun. Stopping a pile in with an easy to cast spell where you can get + to cast for the turn order is sort of nuts! Tag a unit with a just grazing unit and you can look it down for potentially two turns in a row with one spell. Focus a redonkulous amout of debuffs on another threat and slam into it with your fast moving threat. Vs some slow moving lists you can keep whole units from ever doing anything significant by having a shaman force them to go 2d6 towards the battlefield edge with the off board ritual of ruin. If you only take one mortal wound off it, you can do it for a second turn in a row without risking dying, if you take more than one then ambush on the shaman and a unit of ungor and pull that unit back again. 

Losing summoning hurts in one sense, but the shear number of units that it was optimal to bring was insane! I know I lost games because I didn't have another unit of ungor to summon, or centigor or whatever.

It may well be that points are too high, but I do understand why they seem to have been cautious.

Yeah, agree with almost all of this.  The points changes were a shock but once you sit down and start to work out what the army can do, I'm not convinced the power level of the army has gone down much at all. Obviously plays very differently now, but oh boy the tricks we can pull. Having my first game with the new rules tomorrow, but suspect in the short-term points increases and nerfs are more likely than points cuts.

My current thinking on the best units we have:

Ungor Raiders, A+:  115 feels like allot at first glance but twice the shots combined with shoot from ambush then deploy and shoot again means they are throwing out quadruple the shots they used to (for one turn).  For only 230 points (probably two units of 10 unless your going dusk walkers) you get to throw 80 shots at almost any unit on the table, sure 4+/4+ but that's 20 saves and they can't use all out defence against half of them.  You can even use a cheeky ritual to pull a hero out of look out sir range before making them into a pin cushion. In my mind 20 is almost mandatory and much more starts getting obscene. 

Cockatrice, A+:  105 for 8 wounds, fast flier with 10 3+/3+ 2 damage attacks on the charge, ok but nothing to write home about.  But that ability, 50% change to completely neuter almost any combat unit in the game.  6" range is great as you don't need to be in combat and the mortals are just a nice bonus.  Can't see it staying in this state without a major errata or points hike. Again, feels like 2 is almost manditory to help you own the combat phase against anything. 

Chaos Gargant, B+:  Would be A in almost any other army in the game, but we often don't need the extra rend.  The -1 Save aura is almost worth the points cost on it's own, but put it near a hero and you have a nice little blender on your hands too. 

Tzaangor Shaman, B+:  Sooo cheap for all that they bring to the table. Massive move, extra cast when you really need Tendrils or Stranglethorns, solid warscroll spell and even a half decent melee profile.

Gor, B+:  Think of them as old bestigors and it feels obvious to me that they are not over-costed. Less rend, cheaper but the option of more attacks, 5+ rally, and either re-ambush or regenerate the unit (with sub-faction). The perfect ambush unit (while the Galli Vets battalion is around) needing only 7+ to charge and handing out strike last. 

Murglite Chaos Spawn, B: Stackable -1A, solid shooting, fast movement and solid combat profile.  Fragility combined with 1" range for the debuff stops them being A, but great option if your not leaning into Gors/Ungors with Duskwalkers or Allherd. 

Also ran: Ghorgon, Cygor, Dragon Orgors, and Centigors.  Excited to try all these units out now their rules better represent the models, proper damage output.  

Our spells, command abilities and artefacts are also all really good both powerful and interesting.

Not been more excited to try a new army book in a looooong time. 

Edited January 31, 2023 by Magnus The Blue
Typo

[Kevin K]

I haven't played in awhile but the new book might bring me back.  I completely skipped our OP phase sadly, but I like a lot of the changes in general.

The Dragon Ogors now have rules that match their looks.  Bestigors are actually elite.  The book generally matches what I think the BoC should be.

I'm sad about Chimera changes, at least on paper, but might still be good.  Also too bad we lost summoning, but probably simplifies things.  Point changes seem nuts, but if they are they'll come down so no problem long term.

[Rors]

Yeah to be honest as soon as I find a good stl file for cockatrices, I'm getting a bunch. they'll also be showing up in my slaves to darkeness army. Sat behind a wall of nurgle warriors.. they're just such an amazing support model that I think they'll be showing up all over the place as allies too.

I could see chaos gargants being taken as allies too for the rend bubble.

[Myrdin]

So about cockatrices: The rules says enemy unit can be affected only once.

Is this for the "hits on 6" or for the Mortal Wounds part as well ? Or can you still attempt to nuke things with multiple of them rolling for those MW ? The change to hit for enemies doesnt stack I know. Hell it might be too good regardless. It would be fine even if it was just on 5+ instead of 6+. Hope when/if they nerf this they dont completely remove or neuter it.

Edited January 31, 2023 by Myrdin

[Magnus The Blue]

1 minute ago, Myrdin said:

So about cockatrices: The rules says enemy unit can be affected only once.

Is this for the "hits on 6" or for the Mortal Wounds part as well ? Or can you still attempt to nuke things with multiple of them rolling for those MW ? The change to hit for enemies doesnt stack I know. Hell it might be too good regardless. It would be fine even if it was just on 5+ instead of 6+. Hope when/if they nerf this they dont completely remove or neuter it.

My reading would be you can target a unit multiple times but the mortal wounds (and 6s.to hit) only ever trigger once.   So retry if you fail but doesn't work at all on a unit that has been hit already.

[The Red King]

I actually am quite keen on the book. I'm just mostly annoyed that the god marked armies are just a command ability and that khornes is the only one that's keyword locked and that (I need to crunch numbers of course) bullgor seem to be out competed by tzaangor enlightened on disk again and get no synergy for some reason.

I am possibly interested in trying a 12 bull block with a doombull and the 7" ambush command ability. Use blood taunt and such to make a clearing. Ambush the 12 bulls, charge something that can hopefully be wiped out by the average 10 mortal wounds and then use the doombull to charge again in the combat phase into 2 more things dishing out another 10 mws and then fighting. It may not always work or even often work but the potential dmg could be a big swing.

 

But then I really want to use all my bullgor.

 

Edit: of course I forgot you cant bring a unit of 12 and 2 units of 6 means one of them will not benefit from the increased likelihood to make their charge so it's even more of a gamble.

 

Further the fact that the skullfray command trait flavor text says something like "radiates the wrath of the great brass bull" and does not benefit bulls is just... they really hate me don't they lol.

Edited January 31, 2023 by The Red King

[Popisdead]

On 1/30/2023 at 8:51 AM, Dolomedes said:

Centigors and Chariots look like the units for me.

Those look improved a fair bit yeah and i'm keen to try them out.  I think I have 6 chariots, I wonder if they are 1-3 still..  At first glance a fair bit was redone enough to have some excitement about most warscrolls.  

 

Also welcome to the thread all the people who are only here because it's a new army  

 

 

[The Red King]

1 hour ago, Popisdead said:

Those look improved a fair bit yeah and i'm keen to try them out.  I think I have 6 chariots, I wonder if they are 1-3 still..  At first glance a fair bit was redone enough to have some excitement about most warscrolls.  

 

Also welcome to the thread all the people who are only here because it's a new army  

 

 

My immediate reaction is that if I want speed I'll take dogs and if I want damage I'll take well tons of things, but then I was surprised by the damage output of centigor in the old book and I have 10 converted ones anyway so I'm sure I'll try them as soon as I can.

 

I might even try chaos gargants using some khorgorath proxies since I've got them and they fit the theme.

 

After some math hamer it seems that there isn't a big enough difference in damage between greataxe and dual weapon bulls (dual is always just a little better but by 1 or less avg dmg). I will say that a doombull feels mandatory to run with bulls now. Your opponent can easily leave your bulls outside of range to pile in after the charge and being able to respond to that by charging again is necessary in my opinion.

Bestigor do not invalidate bulls like I feared. They NEED to either get buffed by skullfray command trait or the enemy using AoD or tendrils of atrophy to compete. Now if you can get multiple buffs on them they will out damage bulls but unsupported (or minimally supported) bullgor will still break the line a lot harder than bestigor. I havent seen the tzaangor warscrolls so it's still possible that enlightened on disk still outcompete the bulls I'm really happy with the numbers on our elites.

Ghorgon damage is pitiful. 9 avg dmg on a 4+ save (plus the likely 3 extra models you will eat).

Edited January 31, 2023 by The Red King

[Myrdin]

59 minutes ago, The Red King said:

snip

What about the Drag Ogs, how do those fare with the power of math ?

[The Red King]

23 minutes ago, Myrdin said:

What about the Drag Ogs, how do those fare with the power of math ?

I will get back to you.  I hadn't been eyeing their synergies as much because I don't own any but I'll look into them. 

 

Also the herd welcomes all who are strong enough to fight no matter how recently... turnedskin!

[Rors]

I'm reconsidering my list to put cockatrices in. In particular, running 2 blobs/lines of 4 morg spawn with a cockatrices behind them and the -1 shots spell.

It's just such an aggressive 'unit'. If the opponent has a lot of shooting I'll probably bring them in via ambush but against combat focused armies they'll be such a headache to deal with. Put them base to base and it's going to be difficult for a unit to not get tagged multiple times and on a 4+ they only hit on 6s.

Going down to one attack per model and 6s to hit makes most of the heavy hitters out there worthless.

[The Red King]

12 minutes ago, Rors said:

I'm reconsidering my list to put cockatrices in. In particular, running 2 blobs/lines of 4 morg spawn with a cockatrices behind them and the -1 shots spell.

It's just such an aggressive 'unit'. If the opponent has a lot of shooting I'll probably bring them in via ambush but against combat focused armies they'll be such a headache to deal with. Put them base to base and it's going to be difficult for a unit to not get tagged multiple times and on a 4+ they only hit on 6s.

Going down to one attack per model and 6s to hit makes most of the heavy hitters out there worthless.

I agree and I love the morghurite spawn. Feels a bit wasted though because all my lists want to bring gor/ungor anyway so having these spawn satisfy my battleline doesnt really help. As for the cockatrice, use em if you got em. Everyone is really excited about how good they are allied into other armies so I expect we'll get nerfed to make up for other armies taking our stuff eventually. 

[Rors]

5 hours ago, The Red King said:

damage is pitiful. 9 avg dmg on a 4+ save (plus the likely 3 extra models you will eat).

I included the heardstone and monsterous action and got 11.67 vs a 4+ save or 15.56 if you all all out attack. Nothing amazing but not bad. However, Swallow Whole is what makes this guy an absolute killer.

You pick the models. So just always have this guy activate after they've had their pile in. Break the unit in half and ruin their coherency, forcing them to remove half the unit. You can also pull out banners and leaders etc.

More likely, you'll get two not 3 swallow whole roles because he effectively has always strike last if you want to get the most from him. However, between swallow whole and feast on flesh your going to be healing a lot.

A unit of 6 Drogers should do 24.61 wounds on the charge vs 4+ and then the D3 mortals on top.

Edited February 1, 2023 by Rors

[Magnus The Blue]

4 hours ago, Rors said:

I included the heardstone and monsterous action and got 11.67 vs a 4+ save or 15.56 if you all all out attack. Nothing amazing but not bad. However, Swallow Whole is what makes this guy an absolute killer.

You pick the models. So just always have this guy activate after they've had their pile in. Break the unit in half and ruin their coherency, forcing them to remove half the unit. You can also pull out banners and leaders etc.

More likely, you'll get two not 3 swallow whole roles because he effectively has always strike last if you want to get the most from him. However, between swallow whole and feast on flesh your going to be healing a lot.

A unit of 6 Drogers should do 24.61 wounds on the charge vs 4+ and then the D3 mortals on top.

Yup, my maths ends up very similar. 

I think Ghorgon are a solid choice, eating to break coherency isn't great as you eat before attacking so unless your engaging multiple units they will take casualties from the small half (also you choose models before rolling, so a single fail can ruin the plan), usually going to be best to target command models.   The damage Vs 4+ is reasonable for a sub 300 point monster but it really shines Vs better saves.  Can really wreck the modern classic of Nurgle chosen with banner.  50% chance to eat the banner then let rip with rend 3-4. 

Dragon Ogors seem rock solid.  Nearly double the damage and 2" range means they can work reasonably in reinforced units, although MSU will probably be better most of the time to maximise healing and spreading for more mortal wounds.

If the rules for regular two weapon Tzaangor are the same as in the Tzeetch battle tomb (and nothing I have seen suggest they change), they are mathematically our most effective unit: best damage output per point (assuming they all fight, go go Galli Vets) and third best survivability per points (after Warhounds and Ungor).

[Dolomedes]

@The Red King @Popisdead @Myrdin Attached is a spreadsheet that's been built with all damage values, pts per wound etc. As we've been discussing these things for years in the other thread, I figured you'd all like to see it. I didn't make it - it's from the AoS Coach - BoC Discord Channel, made by a guy called 'Eat Bray Love'.

Dual axe bulls are now king for damage. With AoA they have huge spike potential. Interestingly though, the great axe bulls are now +3 to hit, so if you want an option that hits almost as hard but don't want to burn a CP, great axe might be for you. Using the bestial cunning command trait (set up 7" away, for 5" charge) to drop 6 Dual Axe bulls into something nasty has seen some success as an alpha strike. It kills almost anything.

I'm tempted to go for 9 bulls with shields so I can make a death star unit that does 9 MW on the charge. That can usually blow up a screen. Keep a Doombull with them to get them to charge in the combat phase again. 

Dual Wielding Gors are pretty hard hitting for their points. They're not far off Bestigors. If you can charge them, and keep a Beastlord with them, you can fairly reliably get them fighting first in most situations, negating the need for a higher save. If you take the Allherd fray, 3+D3 come back anyway. Finally, a use for our stacks of Dual Axe Gors from 8th Ed!

Tzaangors are probably the most points efficient unit in the book that I can see. Massive damage, good points to wound ratio, and they retain their run an charge unlike everything else.

Chariots are a winner in my eyes. For their points, they do a solid amount of damage and can spike fairly well. I might be incredibly biased though because I have 4 nicely painted and I really want an excuse to run them.

I think there's alot of tech and toys to play with, but ultimately this book is going to win games by playing your infantry right. Bodies on objectives are what win games.  

Copy of BoC_AoS3_stats_by_Eat_Bray_Love (003).xlsx

[Dolomedes]

11 hours ago, Myrdin said:

What about the Drag Ogs, how do those fare with the power of math ?

Enjoy

Edit - This table doesn't show the herdstone rend bonus. 

Edited February 1, 2023 by Dolomedes

[The Red King]

I'm glad my gut reaction was wrong and bullgor are not obsolete. I personally lean towards the greataxe because the difference in dmg is often less than 1 point and the 3+ hit makes them more independent. If I'm likely to be spending a CP on bulls charging in the combat phase I'd prefer not to also plan on spending one on AoA every turn too. (Also because I built them all with greataxes but that's neither here nor there)

I'll also say all my griping about the skullfray command boy affecting bulls still stands from a fluff perspective but from a balance perspective I suppose it's entirely fair.

I've always preferred the look of gors with shields and will probably stick with them because I've got plenty of killy things and precious few durable things.

My ghorgon math didn't factor in most buffs except his own rampage but ultimately I still feel like his abilities have so many ifs/buts that it isn't that appealing to me. Targeting command models and special weapons definitely seems like the best use though. Think of him as turning off command abilities if they don't have another leader nearby to issue them hah.

All in all I'm still keen on the book and now probably more so. Warhounds wound efficiency is somewhat lessened by their bravery 4 but I still like them for being something that doesnt ambush and can get you objectives if you want to wait out turn 1.

[Myrdin]

I do wonder if Jabberslythe suddenly and out of nowhere loosing Fly is an oversight or actual intent.

Hope its the former and they ammend it with an Errata asap, since the unit is not exactly appealing if it has to walk to where you need it to be (they still seems unsure how or what to do with this critter looking at the changes to its profile).

Edited February 1, 2023 by Myrdin

[The Red King]

Does anyone know if  a gibbering congregation counts as 3 battleline choices or one? They "must be taken as a set referred to as a gibbering congregation. Although taken as a set, each is a separate unit."

 

Also how does that work with batallions? Do they take one slot because it's in the list building phase or 3?

[RocketPropelledGrenade]

5 minutes ago, The Red King said:

Does anyone know if  a gibbering congregation counts as 3 battleline choices or one? They "must be taken as a set referred to as a gibbering congregation. Although taken as a set, each is a separate unit."

 

Also how does that work with batallions? Do they take one slot because it's in the list building phase or 3?

I'd send those questions in to the AoS rules team--you can e-mail them at aosfaq@gwplc.com. They don't respond immediately, but I found when I sent in some questions for S2D immediately after the battletome release, they found their way into the FAQ.

[The Red King]

19 minutes ago, RocketPropelledGrenade said:

I'd send those questions in to the AoS rules team--you can e-mail them at aosfaq@gwplc.com. They don't respond immediately, but I found when I sent in some questions for S2D immediately after the battletome release, they found their way into the FAQ.

I probably will. I was just wondering because it isn't the first unit like this (idk fuethan sharks) but I dont know if they were battleline.

And Grashraks and other WU warbands all take 2 slots in batallions so who knows.