AoS 3.0 - Gloomspite GItz Discussion

[Gitzdee]

36 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

this is roughly right, had to do 4+2d3 for the mirebrute attacks though.

in kruleboyz the mirebrute would beat the dankhold vs low saves too thanks to VEW.

Thanks! Still decent stats it seems. Havent read the exact wordings but i think the Mirebrute still benefits from the Troggoth buffs too?

Edited January 30, 2023 by Gitzdee

[Siegwin]

44 minutes ago, Gitzdee said:

Thanks! Still decent stats it seems. Havent read the exact wordings but i think the Mirebrute still benefits from the Troggoth buffs too?

Light of the Bad Moon and the Troggboss Command only work on Gloomspite Gitz Troggoths now

[Mutton]

It's worth noting that both Dankholds' Crushing Grip is now at the end of the combat phase, which means they have to survive it, which sucks. But you can still squish vital unit leaders.

I'd also point out that the Glowy Howzit is now AWESOME in my opinion. The wording has changed significantly. Now you only roll if the troll took wounds that weren't negated (if you fail the 4+ ward) at the END OF THE PHASE (meaning you get the ward for the whole phase at least), AND, if you end up having to roll, you only roll a SINGLE DIE. Statistically, this means your Trogboss could very easily have a 4+ ward for most of the game.

[Aelfric]

6 hours ago, Boingrot Bouncer said:

You can't sadly give Troggboss gryph feather charm since he is not Galletian Champion.

Of course, wasn't thinking.  Thanks for pointing that out.  Just so eager to see it had returned, Isuppose.  Oh well, back to Glowy Howzit and rolling ones again.  It is more durable now, so maybe less frustrating.  ( other artifacts are available ).

[Boingrot Bouncer]

5 minutes ago, Aelfric said:

Of course, wasn't thinking.  Thanks for pointing that out.  Just so eager to see it had returned, Isuppose.  Oh well, back to Glowy Howzit and rolling ones again.  It is more durable now, so maybe less frustrating.  ( other artifacts are available ).

It's much improved, you could have a good chance to keep it all game since it's only 1 dice and only if you have taken a wound that turn. But sure, you might lose it round 1 if you are unlucky.

[dirkdragonslayer]

19 hours ago, Aelfric said:

I totally agree about the General Trogboss.  Make him as defensive as possible and take a free Mork's Mushroom ( I'll also take the Scuttletide and a Webspinner to cast it ).  I'm leaning towards the Gryph Feather Charm as I've been bitten by the Glowy Howzit once too often.  It's whether to take more Trogbosses or Troggoths that I am considering.  I have been using 2 Trogbosses before and have just painted up a 3rd hoping the Dankhold Troggoths would be worth taking over the Boss.  I feel like they are on first impression, but not completely sold at the moment.  I'll try them out in a game or two and see how they go.

Free Morks Mushroom really seems like the way to go. You do need to be careful about the random distance. If you watch the 2v2 Gloomspite battle report on Rerolling Ones, the Trogg player rolls very low and nukes his own troggoths. Hilarious.

[Ganigumo]

Honestly all of the trogg artefacts are winners in my opinion. Pet Gribbly is a little questionable, but if you take it with the monster command trait its +3 wounds.
Getting the free endless spell is probably the best command trait though. Malevolent moon is probably going to be in most lists.

[Sinfullyvannila]

Yeah I feel the entire reason for Trogboss not getting buffs to his combat stats is the Loonskin and that he basically gets a free enhancement as long as you take a Dankhold Troggoth along.

[Aelfric]

1 hour ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

Yeah I feel the entire reason for Trogboss not getting buffs to his combat stats is the Loonskin and that he basically gets a free enhancement as long as you take a Dankhold Troggoth along.

I have found he differences between the two warscrolls in the new book to be quite intriguing. 

The narrative part of me likes to think that it's because the Trogboss in the lore is seen by other Troggoths instinctually as the leader and therefore does not need to fight for their position at the head of the Herd.  Dankhold Troggoths, though are more likely to fight for their position within the Herd.

The cynical part of me, on the other hand, thinks that the divergence of the warscrolls is intended to curtail the use of either model build to represent either warscroll and so increase the overall sales of the kit.

Of course, both can be true.

[Malakree]

@Ganigumo few questions

Whats the unbuffed damage per point between rockguts and dankholds Whats the damage scaling per bonus attack applied to both of them?

Specifically because sporesplattaz no longer have the moonclan keyword requirement so they can be used to give +1 attack aswell. Same with sneaky snufflers. 

Worth pointing out that sneaky snufflers don't required you to pick a target until after you've rolled. This means if you only get the 5+ ward you just dont put it on rockguts.

What are peoples opinions on taking malevolent moon instead of the shroom. It's basically a flaming head which doesnt dispel itself, doesnt do friendly fire and also has an aura for +1 save while wholly within 12.

[Ganigumo]

3 minutes ago, Malakree said:

@Ganigumo few questions

Whats the unbuffed damage per point between rockguts and dankholds Whats the damage scaling per bonus attack applied to both of them?

Specifically because sporesplattaz no longer have the moonclan keyword requirement so they can be used to give +1 attack aswell. Same with sneaky snufflers. 

Worth pointing out that sneaky snufflers don't required you to pick a target until after you've rolled. This means if you only get the 5+ ward you just dont put it on rockguts.

What are peoples opinions on taking malevolent moon instead of the shroom. It's basically a flaming head which doesnt dispel itself, doesnt do friendly fire and also has an aura for +1 save while wholly within 12.

damage per point for rockguts vs 4+:
6.67/160=0.041 damage per point

Damage per point for danks vs 4+:

9.26/180=0.051 damage per point.

At 2 extra attacks rockguts become more efficient damagewise per point, but they don't outdamage a comparably sized unit of dankholds until you get 3 bonus attacks.

Each extra attack gives rockguts a 50% increase in damage (50% more attacks) and dankholds a 25% increase (25% more attacks), but the damage difference is big enough that its better to buff a comparably sized dankhold unit if you have it around.

 

I think moon is almost auto include? Just to turn the moon on more consistently, especially if you're troggs since you get it for free with loonskin
 

[spenson]

What happens if you give an arcane tome to a Troggboss with loonskin? Does it only have 1 cast and at least the free endless spell won't go wild or do we get our normal spell from arcane tome (flaming weapon doesn't look too bad) + one free cast of that endless spell from loonskin?

I only have access to summaries so I don't have the exact wording.

[Jmason]

3 hours ago, spenson said:

What happens if you give an arcane tome to a Troggboss with loonskin? Does it only have 1 cast and at least the free endless spell won't go wild or do we get our normal spell from arcane tome (flaming weapon doesn't look too bad) + one free cast of that endless spell from loonskin?

I only have access to summaries so I don't have the exact wording.

I believe arcane tome was retired when the new ghb was released?

[RocketPropelledGrenade]

1 hour ago, Jmason said:

I believe arcane tome was retired when the new ghb was released?

Nope. Core enhancements are still around.

[Ganigumo]

5 hours ago, spenson said:

What happens if you give an arcane tome to a Troggboss with loonskin? Does it only have 1 cast and at least the free endless spell won't go wild or do we get our normal spell from arcane tome (flaming weapon doesn't look too bad) + one free cast of that endless spell from loonskin?

I only have access to summaries so I don't have the exact wording.

The troggboss will control the spell if its predatory.

Per the core rules:

"A predatory endless spell within 30" of the model that summoned it is controlled by that model"

No mention of wizards here except to limit the number of spells that can be controlled by a single wizard, but the troggboss can only cast one of those anyways.

I imagine arcane tome won't stack to give you 2 casts. Its similar to the cabalists ruling, and also says "you can cast the spell". If you make the troggboss a wizard he still can cast the spell. Could go either way though.

 

The trogg artefacts are all pretty solid so its not a big loss imo.

[Ganigumo]

I did some math on the Slapspinner shaman (moon + spell/banner + double mortals + flaming weapon). You can make it into a hammer.

average damage is good but hilariously uncompetitive because pretty much all the damage is in rolling 5s and 6s on the 4 bite attacks.

could be a fun piece to bring in a casual game.

[Malakree]

7 hours ago, Ganigumo said:

damage per point for rockguts vs 4+:
6.67/160=0.041 damage per point

Damage per point for danks vs 4+:

9.26/180=0.051 damage per point.

At 2 extra attacks rockguts become more efficient damagewise per point, but they don't outdamage a comparably sized unit of dankholds until you get 3 bonus attacks.

Each extra attack gives rockguts a 50% increase in damage (50% more attacks) and dankholds a 25% increase (25% more attacks), but the damage difference is big enough that its better to buff a comparably sized dankhold unit if you have it around.

 

I think moon is almost auto include? Just to turn the moon on more consistently, especially if you're troggs since you get it for free with loonskin
 

What do you mean by comparably sized, 2 vs 6?

[spenson]

7 hours ago, Ganigumo said:

The troggboss will control the spell if its predatory.

Per the core rules:

"A predatory endless spell within 30" of the model that summoned it is controlled by that model"

No mention of wizards here except to limit the number of spells that can be controlled by a single wizard, but the troggboss can only cast one of those anyways.

I imagine arcane tome won't stack to give you 2 casts. Its similar to the cabalists ruling, and also says "you can cast the spell". If you make the troggboss a wizard he still can cast the spell. Could go either way though.

 

The trogg artefacts are all pretty solid so its not a big loss imo.

But if it's not wild then RAW you can't move the endless spell since only wizards that control endless spells can move them and Loonskin only allows you to cast it as if you were a wizard.

"After determining control of predatory endless spells, the player whose turn is taking place moves all of the predatory endless spells controlled by friendly Wizards."

I think it'll need an errata that either also lets you control it or specifically state that it becomes wild.

edit: the errata from the KO battletome says that you can't control the spell you cast using "Spell in a Bottle" so it may be the same.

Edited January 31, 2023 by spenson

[Gitzdee]

I think ill go somewhere along these lines from the things i have read so far.

Skrag

Troggboss

Dankhold

Fellwater troggs

Rockgut troggs

Gobbapalooza and or snufflers

Would like to add a unit like snarlfangs or hoppers. But waiting for the app to update. 

Tactics are a solid Troggoth core without going heavy in the battleline department. Thinking about 2x3 Fellwaters and 1x6 Rockguts.

Then ill add some utility pieces like Skragrott providing the moon buff on a stick and Gobbapalooza and the Snufflers for all kinds of buff/debuffs and spells/dispells.

I would like to add some fast objective grabbers too but i dont know the point costs yet so i dont know where i stand now. 

Wanted to try to be as diverse as possible while keeping synergy in mind. But like to know everyones thoughts on this.

[Ganigumo]

7 hours ago, Malakree said:

What do you mean by comparably sized, 2 vs 6?

Same number of reinforcements so 1 vs 3, 2 vs 6

[Beliman]

10 hours ago, Ganigumo said:

No mention of wizards here except to limit the number of spells that can be controlled by a single wizard, but the troggboss can only cast one of those anyways.

KOs lost the option to move any Predatory Endless Spell thx to 3.0 wording because, even if they control can control the spell, they are not wizards and can't move them:

"After determining control of predatory endless spells, the player whose turn is taking place moves all of the predatory endless spells controlled by friendly WIZARDS"

Not sure if it's the same for Loonskin but it's something to take in mind.

[Malakree]

2 hours ago, Ganigumo said:

Same number of reinforcements so 1 vs 3, 2 vs 6

So basically if it isnt a block of 9 rockguts you should be buffing the dankhold. Wait are we talking +1 attack or +1 hit/attack. I'd have thought a flat +1 attack on rockguts (ie. +3 total) would have been better than +1 on a dankhold.

It does raise the intresting point that sneaky snufflers on a unit of 2 dankholds is almost always better than on 6/9 rockguts purely because of the 5+ ward being useless on the rockguts. I'm assuming that fellwaters are just worse for melee buffs.

[Ganigumo]

10 minutes ago, Malakree said:

So basically if it isnt a block of 9 rockguts you should be buffing the dankhold. Wait are we talking +1 attack or +1 hit/attack. I'd have thought a flat +1 attack on rockguts (ie. +3 total) would have been better than +1 on a dankhold.

It does raise the intresting point that sneaky snufflers on a unit of 2 dankholds is almost always better than on 6/9 rockguts purely because of the 5+ ward being useless on the rockguts. I'm assuming that fellwaters are just worse for melee buffs.

the +1 to hit is pretty much the same for both, its always a 16.67% increase.
Rockguts do get a bigger increase out of a bonus attack than the dankhold does, but because the dankhold's base damage is higher he'll still do more damage until you get up to +3 attacks.

Base fellwaters match rockgut damage vs a 3+ save, and are better against anything higher (before factoring in the vomit) but fall a bit short of the dankhold's damage. Rockguts do take to extra attacks better though. If you give both a troggboss buff rockguts beat out fellwaters against anything except a 6+ save, but the vomit penalty would push it down to a 5+.

When it comes to fellwaters I think you want to give them the snuffler buff though, 4+/5++/-1 to hit, should be a tough profile to shift. I think its something like 32 effective wounds before save buffs or the -1 to hit for 3 of them.

 

 

1 hour ago, Beliman said:

KOs lost the option to move any Predatory Endless Spell thx to 3.0 wording because, even if they control can control the spell, they are not wizards and can't move them:

"After determining control of predatory endless spells, the player whose turn is taking place moves all of the predatory endless spells controlled by friendly WIZARDS"

Not sure if it's the same for Loonskin but it's something to take in mind.

pretty sure its the same, I missed that ruling. When it came to the gargant artefact they gave the gargant the wizard keyword but only to cast endless spells.

[Malakree]

35 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

pretty sure its the same, I missed that ruling. When it came to the gargant artefact they gave the gargant the wizard keyword but only to cast endless spells.

I can see that getting an FAQ 

 

35 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

When it comes to fellwaters I think you want to give them the snuffler buff though, 4+/5++/-1 to hit, should be a tough profile to shift. I think its something like 32 effective wounds before save buffs or the -1 to hit for 3 of them.

Then prio for it is probably 9 fel > 2 dank > 9 rock > 6 fel > 6 rock > 1 dank. If you only get the ward then obv the rockguts would never get it.

 

35 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

the +1 to hit is pretty much the same for both, its always a 16.67% increase.
Rockguts do get a bigger increase out of a bonus attack than the dankhold does, but because the dankhold's base damage is higher he'll still do more damage until you get up to +3 attacks.

So snufflers + troggboss + sporesplattaz is the point at which 6 rockguts overtake 2 danks 🤣

Edited January 31, 2023 by Malakree

[Sinfullyvannila]

We can still get the endless spell and have a different wizard cast it to cover the concern about the Predatory spell