AoS 3 - Fyreslayers Discussion

[DwarfsOnly]

27 minutes ago, Oldhat said:

Arcane Tome? Thoughts? I'd love some feedback on this list, especially since I have all but I think the Runesons and 5 AHG built, so I can get this on the table pretty quick (lmao not really, because I got to paint everything).

I like that list much better. And yea, Arcane Tome or Ash-Cloud are probably the way to go, depending on your local Meta. I, also, might instead drop 5x Auric HG for a Grimwrath and stick him with a Magmalt Ale. But the smiter dropping 15x ahg gives solid pressure for opponents to protect their backline, which frees up your front. Seems like an improved list!

[Liquidsteel]

4 hours ago, DwarfsOnly said:

It's been allowed a few places, mostly because many TOs either don't care or don't know the rules. But technically it is not valid. The reason is pretty straight forward: you build your army list before you choose enhancements. Since endless spells are chosen when building your list, you do not have a wizard to choose them. Then, after that step, your enhancements are chosen, but you are past choosing an endless spell.

This is noted in: 27.3 where it notes enhancements are chosen after battalions.  In 26.0, battalions are picked after you have created your army. It's fairly clearly written in the core rules.

Yes I'm aware of this argument but it's not actually that straightforward. 

Nowhere does it state that you have to ensure the list is legal at each step in the process and that you can't proceed if there are any errors at each individual step.

As long as the list is legal at the end there is no issue.

To go further, you don't unlock sub allegiances and therefore battleline-if from those until after battalions are picked, so if you picked a bunch of blood knights in a Soulblight list, your list would technically be illegal and have no battleline even as you tried to bundle them in to a battle Regiment, as you don't unlock Kastelai til you get to choosing your subfaction.

Same with Gristlegore, they don't become battleline til you pick the subfaction so you'd get stuck trying to put a terrorgheist in Hunters because at that point it's still a Behemoth.

It alludes to this earlier, but doesn't actually take place til after.

If you can retroactively make the list legal with this I'm sure you can do the same with Arcane Tome and an endless spell. List building is therefore a fluid process.

Of course I could be making a mistake somewhere but as far as I'm aware the above is true. Happy to be proven wrong as it doesn't impact any of my armies but I don't think it's as straightforward as you say.

[DwarfsOnly]

23 hours ago, Liquidsteel said:

 

To go further, you don't unlock sub allegiances and therefore battleline-if from those until after battalions are picked, so if you picked a bunch of blood knights in a Soulblight list, your list would technically be illegal and have no battleline even as you tried to bundle them in to a battle Regiment, as you don't unlock Kastelai til you get to choosing your subfaction.

 

You actually unlock sub-allegiance (i.e. subfactions) at the Allegiance Abilities phase, which is done during army building prior to battalion choice and enhancement choice in 3.0. This is noted in 27.2.1: "Some factions contain one or more subfactions. The battle traits for the faction tell you how or if you can pick a subfaction for your army." This means they are part of the battle traits determined when you take the allegiance. 

Essentially, this is the order:

1. Pick you Army, including allegiance
2. Pick you units. This includes endless spells or invocations. 
3. Battle Traits are gained when allegiance is chosen. Battle traits include choice of subfaction.
4. Choose your battalions.
5. Choose your enhancements.

For your example of Soublight. You:

1. Choose Soublight Gravelords
2. Pick your units. This includes any conditional battlelines that are now battleline due to previous step. This also includes any endless spells.
3. Gain their Battle Traits including "The Cursed Bloodlines" battle traits which includes the text, "When you choose a Soulblight Gravelords army, you must give it a lineage keyword from the list below."
4. Choose your battalions. 
5. Choose your enhancements.

 

So here, as we can see in the example. You choose an army before you choose battalions and enhancements. The cursed bloodlines specifically say it is at this point you choose a bloodline.

Edited March 24, 2022 by DwarfsOnly

[Liquidsteel]

You've basically confirmed that 27.2.1 works retroactively, which was my point. As per the Core Rules, you don't gain Battle Traits until 27.1 which is after youve picked your list and after you've picked battalions in 26. Why is it okay to work backwards here but not for enhancements? 

I was mainly trying to highlight that list building is fluid, and at no point does it clarify when you check the list is legal.

You can add an endless spell and then ensure you take Arcane Tome to make sure the list works, nothing is stopping you doing this.

[DwarfsOnly]

You choose the subfaction when you pick the army, this is the very first step. It's not retroactive. Nothing is retroactive, here that isn't explicitly said to be. Battle Traits are gained before enhancements as well.

To clarify again, this is the ordering:

1. Pick your army (1.1). This includes allegiance/subfaction.
2. Pick Units (25.0~). Note 25.5.1, "Conditional Battlefield Roles." 
3. Battalions are chosen (26.0).
4. Check allegiance abilities and gain subfaction (27.2) It's important to note that by this point you have already picked all the units from your army as well (including the endless spell).
5. Enhancements are chosen (27.3).

No, nothing is retroactive. I guess technically the only "retroactive" part is that the subfactions themselves are picked when you pick the army (as per subfaction rules in the tomes) even though they aren't specified to be "checked" until later. But even this check is before enhancement choice. 

So yea, it is stopping you. But keep on doing it, no reason not to if your local TOs aren't stopping it. I believe it has been denied at most larger events, however.  It definitely needs and FAQ just to make it explicit regardless which way it goes.

Edited March 24, 2022 by DwarfsOnly

[Liquidsteel]

19 minutes ago, DwarfsOnly said:

You choose the subfaction when you pick the army, this is the very first step. It's not retroactive. Nothing is retroactive, here that isn't explicitly said to be. Battle Traits are gained before enhancements as well.

To clarify again, this is the ordering:

1. Pick your army (1.1). This includes allegiance/subfaction.
2. Pick Units (25.0~). Note 25.5.1, "Conditional Battlefield Roles." 
3. Check allegiance abilities and gain subfaction (27.2)
4. Battalions are chosen (26.0)
5. Enhancements are chosen (27.3).

No, nothing is retroactive. 

So yea, it is stopping you. But keep on doing it, no reason not to if your local TOs aren't stopping it. I believe it has been denied at most larger events, however.  It definitely needs and FAQ just to make it explicit regardless which way it goes.

I was just using it as an example of how trying to follow the numbers exactly in order doesn't always compute, which is where this argument that Arcane Tome can't be used to take Endless Spells comes from. You actually have to take all these rules in to consideration, and then you move on to listbuilding, which is what it says right there in 1.1 - you review all of this, then you pick the battle pack, and then you pick your list. So you already have the knowledge of allegiance abilities (and therefore potential artefacts because artefacts fall under allegiance abilities) before you get started. For what it's worth, step 25.0 isn't picking units, it's just guidance.

Regardless, my original point still stands - nowhere do the rules say that the list has to be legal at each step and that you can't proceed if it's not. If you end up with a list that is legal, then you are fine. If you take Arcane Tome, then you satisfy the requirement to have a Wizard and your Endless Spell pick is valid.

For the record I do play at large events, here in the UK, so there's no need for the "local TO's" comment.

With that said I don't want to drag this out any longer, in a faction sub-forum especially. You've made up your mind on this and that's fine, I'm just glad I was able to show that it's not a watertight case either way, and that people should stop saying that the rules expressly prohibit Endless Spells being taken via Arcane Tome when it's not the case, rather it's one interpretation.

 

[Superking]

Could Doomseekrs fight on death and damage boost on death make them a niche screen unit/small unit trader? Put them in front of a nasty and bait a charge or sit on a back objective. Wouldn't work against anything with ranged damage though. 

[5kaven5lave]

Are people painting HGBs in 5s or 10s? Thinking of taking on 10s but don’t want to lose the will to live.

[Oldhat]

1 hour ago, 5kaven5lave said:

Are people painting HGBs in 5s or 10s? Thinking of taking on 10s but don’t want to lose the will to live.

Aw, they're not that bad. Better to have too many than not enough right? My goal is 30 total.

[5kaven5lave]

So, finished my slow game over a couple of sessions vs. Stormcast dragons (not exactly the cutting edge version, but there was Stormdrake Guard and Fulminators), managed to pick up the W but we were so rusty it hardly matters tbh. So will just post a couple of reflections on stuff that doesn’t really require me to be good at the game to say them:

10 HGBs can die quite quickly if your ward rolls go bad - 2x SDG and 2x Fullies shot and fought them off before they could respond.

Following on from that, our counter-attack CA is exactly that and so can be negated by Roar - might be worth taking HotH battalions so we can use it at will?

Also wondered about drops and how important they are for us, especially if 2 or 3 units of HGBs would probably be set out the same way ish most of the time and most of our units can lose priority turn 1 and still start the game with a ward save?

Did like the option of 5 Aurics as a deck-chair or deep strike unit.

They also gave me the option to take the Fyrewall which I thought was excellent, gave my Runemaster the Volatile Brazier and he could launch it around the board to block movement and charges around my Magmadroth as well as giving him a ward if he’s isolated (managed to bag a 4+ ward on him in a combat where he had 3 wounds left which was massive).

Dad on Droth with Axe of Grimnir is an absolute murdertrain and Battlesmith Rally is glorious.

Really looking forward to my next game now!!

[Voltek]

Edit: I guess we cannot do the idea I posted.

I am excited to be building my force and playing in a path to glory campaign starting soon

Edited April 3, 2022 by Voltek

[5kaven5lave]

Does Curse and Poleaxe HGBs get you 3mw for every 6 to hit or do they not stack? Cheers!!

[angrycontra]

1 hour ago, 5kaven5lave said:

Does Curse and Poleaxe HGBs get you 3mw for every 6 to hit or do they not stack? Cheers!!

Any abilities that trigger on 6s to hit (or wound) do not stack with each other, you would have to choose which effect you trigger (and in hgbs case, you always pick poleaxe to trigger), If you have seperate hit and wound roll triggers that of course works normally.

[Paul Buckler]

Amazing results for FS at Hants GT, just barely missing out on a podium, and could easily have taken out the event.

Plenty to provide huge encouragement of how good this new book is.

 

 

 

[Superking]

You got the lists?

[Tarogrim]

You can find them on tabletop.to

https://tabletop.to/the-hampshire-grand-tournament/lists

[Doko]

Before tome we had 48\52% win rate

 

Now with book we have 40%

 

So.....data dont lie,also see how idoneths have 50+ even with same time.

 

[JonnyTheKing]

3 hours ago, Doko said:

Before tome we had 48\52% win rate

 

Now with book we have 40%

 

So.....data dont lie,also see how idoneths have 50+ even with same time.

 

It is also way too early and the stats need time to settle

[5kaven5lave]

Anyone played any games recently?

[EntMan]

Hello Fyreslayers! I hope you will indulge me in a couple of (probably to you) really obvious fluff questions:

1) Why do all Fyreslayers have Orange or Red Beards/Hair?* Is it just the convention/fashion or is there a specific reason? 

2) Is the crest on top of their helmets their own hair threaded up through the helmet? Or is it apart of the helmet and if so is there any lore on where it comes from?

*I may be wrong but I don't remember seeing any other colours.

[Baron Klatz]

8 hours ago, 5kaven5lave said:

Anyone played any games recently?

Well just beginner Open Play fights with my brother-in-law new to the game but they’ve been really fun! He hasn’t assembled many Fyreslayers yet so for his Flamekeeper I shortened the rule down to 3 deaths needed to compensate our half-sized armies and even though my Deepkin hero carved through his double-axe Vulkites(really made him consider the sling-shields next time) it let his Flamekeeper get off that huge damage boost plus the Acid Rain Realm Rule adding additional damage which made him a terror Grimnir could give a smouldering grin to as he avenged his fallen.  

His Lodge theme is gonna be a mix of firey bodies but ice weapons and frost tip armor because the background is his Fyreslayer warriors caught the Everwinter curse from taking Ir-gold from slaughtered Beastclaw stomachs and now are known as far ranging wandering mercenaries with their flames keeping ahead of the blizzard and rotating between a number of smaller lodge-Safeways they circulate through to keep the frost from gathering in one place too much for the lava to handle.

This is also why he’s stacking a bunch of weapons on his Vulkites to show they’re versatile travelers. In battles we pick which Vulkites warscroll they use before deploying.

(Don’t worry about painting past the stacked weapons. It’s cheap glue right now for his first models so easy to remove plus there’s many more Fyreslayers on the way and these are practice.  )

2 hours ago, EntMan said:

Hello Fyreslayers! I hope you will indulge me in a couple of (probably to you) really obvious fluff questions:

1) Why do all Fyreslayers have Orange or Red Beards/Hair?* Is it just the convention/fashion or is there a specific reason? 

2) Is the crest on top of their helmets their own hair threaded up through the helmet? Or is it apart of the helmet and if so is there any lore on where it comes from?

*I may be wrong but I don't remember seeing any other colours.

1. Mostly to emulate their fire god father, Grimnir and his fiery foe Vulcatrix which some venerate since the Magmadroths are in an alliance to reassemble their god-beast as well.

 

As for hair colors, it’s usually red and orange but there’s blacks, greys and even Ghyranite greens or Shyishian whites from covering themselves with the ash of the dead among whatever else you could want.

2. It’s a mix. Some have legitimate towering crests while others use helm crests.

 

 

Edited April 23, 2022 by Baron Klatz

[Superking]

https://woehammer.com/2022/04/28/top-three-aos-lists-from-thr-annihilation/

Lofnir tournament win.

[5kaven5lave]

How do we all feel about Runesmiters? Must-pick? Forgettable? 

[Tarogrim]

Didn't play a game with the new book so far, but from my experience with the army I also found them helpful because they give us mobility. You could also ally in some stormdrakes or a gunhauler for mobility. It's a little bit down to your preference. 

 On some Battleplans they really shine with their deep-strike potential. Being able to tag 2 objectives in the backfield can really make a big difference. 

Another plus is that you can hide a unit from an alpha strike. 

I have one in my list but if I recall correctly most tournament lists did not have any. 

Edited May 3, 2022 by Tarogrim

[Lord Krungharr]

On 4/23/2022 at 9:28 AM, EntMan said:

Hello Fyreslayers! I hope you will indulge me in a couple of (probably to you) really obvious fluff questions:

1) Why do all Fyreslayers have Orange or Red Beards/Hair?* Is it just the convention/fashion or is there a specific reason? 

2) Is the crest on top of their helmets their own hair threaded up through the helmet? Or is it apart of the helmet and if so is there any lore on where it comes from?

*I may be wrong but I don't remember seeing any other colours.

As for #2, yes they actually sort of compete with one another on who can sport the longest mohawk through the fanciest helm-crests.  That's in the battletome lore as I recall, at least the old battletome.