The Winter Rules Update

[PrimeElectrid]

1 hour ago, vinnyt said:

You guys know that it's like comically easy for stormcast to kill kragnos, right? And that there's a slight difference between a 3d6 charge and a 4-5" charge after teleporting? And that dragons still get their hero phase move/charge? 

SCE are insanely mobile with a reliable teleport of any unit, ability to deepstrike across the army, ability to deepstrike and auto-make a 12" charge, etc, etc. You also have things like fulminators, dragons, chariots, etc, etc. Plus some of the best shooting in the game that escaped the update completely unharmed. And if your reponse is to just "kill the raptors", then I know you have no idea what you're talking about. They can deploy in the sky to avoid the alpha and are outrageously maneuverable with the teleport and 30" range. 

Like every post is just SCE players being extremely salty that their army isn't the most broken thing imaginable. There are multiple competitive builds that will absolutely compete at the highest level and SCE are absolutely an A-tier army. And in case you're wondering, here are 2 builds just right off the cuff that are extremely competitive: Incantor, relictor, drake hero, 4 dragons, 6 raptors, 3 aetherwings. Flavor to taste. Incantor, Relictor, imperator, 9 grandhammer annihilators, 6 raptors, aetherwings. Flavor to taste. Feel free to swap out whatever with fulminators since they're also unbelievably good. Meanwhile armies like Skaven, Gitz, and BoC are still practically unplayable after this update.

 

That’s some strawman you got there buddy.

There is a difference between a 3d6 charge and a teleport and move charge. You can redeploy from one and not the other.

You know what else? Ironjawz get to do both.

[readercolin]

7 minutes ago, vinnyt said:

You guys know that it's like comically easy for stormcast to kill kragnos, right? And that there's a slight difference between a 3d6 charge and a 4-5" charge after teleporting? And that dragons still get their hero phase move/charge? 

SCE are insanely mobile with a reliable teleport of any unit, ability to deepstrike across the army, ability to deepstrike and auto-make a 12" charge, etc, etc. You also have things like fulminators, dragons, chariots, etc, etc. Plus some of the best shooting in the game that escaped the update completely unharmed. And if your reponse is to just "kill the raptors", then I know you have no idea what you're talking about. They can deploy in the sky to avoid the alpha and are outrageously maneuverable with the teleport and 30" range. 

Like every post is just SCE players being extremely salty that their army isn't the most broken thing imaginable. There are multiple competitive builds that will absolutely compete at the highest level and SCE are absolutely an A-tier army. And in case you're wondering, here are 2 builds just right off the cuff that are extremely competitive: Incantor, relictor, drake hero, 4 dragons, 6 raptors, 3 aetherwings. Flavor to taste. Incantor, Relictor, imperator, 9 grandhammer annihilators, 6 raptors, aetherwings. Flavor to taste. Feel free to swap out whatever with fulminators since they're also unbelievably good. Meanwhile armies like Skaven, Gitz, and BoC are still practically unplayable after this update.

Ahh, yes, the person who sees that 1-2 decent stormcast lists exists and assume that makes everyone happy.  Can't have a thread without them.

Are stormcast players salty that their army isn't the most broken thing imaginable?  No.  Are stormcast players salty that 3/4 of their units aren't worth bringing?  Yes.

If you want to play stormcast competitively, you can run Liberators, Fulminators, Annihilators, Vanguard Raptors, Stormdrake Guard, Gardus, Knight-Draconis, Knight-Incantor, Knight-Judicator, Lord-Relictor, Lord-Imperitant, and the Lord-Arcanum on Taurelion.  Some questionable picks include Celestant Prime, Bastian, Yndrasta, Vindictors, and Judicators (with Skybolt Bows).  That is 17 units that are at least questionably worth bringing.

There are 79 warscrolls.  Let me repeat that.  THERE ARE 79 WARSCROLLS (not counting endless spells).  17/79 is 21%.  That means that 79% of the warscrolls in the book, 79% of the models that people have AREN'T WORTH BRINGING.

Stormcast players don't want their army to be broken.  Stormcast want some of those 62 warscrolls to be playable.  Does move after teleport actually help any of the units above?  Fulminators, sure, though not really in a way that makes them a ton more powerful than they already are.  Anything else, probably not.  But it does make evocators and paladins playable.  What about Gardus's +3" charge ability?  That would make other paladins and evocator units worth playing over annihilators, or be able to play annihilators without paying the Imperitant tax.  Bring back the Heraldor's ability to give a unit run+charge, and you make paladins potentially playable, and open up other dracothian guard for playability.  Adjust coherency to be 1-6 models in the unit and Evocators on Dracolines become viable, and Vanguard-Pallidors might be worth at least considering.  Do just some of those and we can jump from 21% of warscrolls being viable to 50% being viable - that is still a great improvement.

But noooooo.  Stormcast are "Fine".  Just like they were "fine" in 2nd edition because they had a single army that could, if played well, take an army 3-2 in a tournament.  After all, that is about where they should be sitting at again, right?

[Gailon]

1 hour ago, vinnyt said:

You guys know that it's like comically easy for stormcast to kill kragnos, right? And that there's a slight difference between a 3d6 charge and a 4-5" charge after teleporting? And that dragons still get their hero phase move/charge? 

SCE are insanely mobile with a reliable teleport of any unit, ability to deepstrike across the army, ability to deepstrike and auto-make a 12" charge, etc, etc. You also have things like fulminators, dragons, chariots, etc, etc. Plus some of the best shooting in the game that escaped the update completely unharmed. And if your reponse is to just "kill the raptors", then I know you have no idea what you're talking about. They can deploy in the sky to avoid the alpha and are outrageously maneuverable with the teleport and 30" range. 

Like every post is just SCE players being extremely salty that their army isn't the most broken thing imaginable. There are multiple competitive builds that will absolutely compete at the highest level and SCE are absolutely an A-tier army. And in case you're wondering, here are 2 builds just right off the cuff that are extremely competitive: Incantor, relictor, drake hero, 4 dragons, 6 raptors, 3 aetherwings. Flavor to taste. Incantor, Relictor, imperator, 9 grandhammer annihilators, 6 raptors, aetherwings. Flavor to taste. Feel free to swap out whatever with fulminators since they're also unbelievably good. Meanwhile armies like Skaven, Gitz, and BoC are still practically unplayable after this update.

 

I think some of the Stormcast "saltiness" is a reflection of poor internal balance, a huge list of units, and an army that has been around a long time so people have their favorite toys. 

SCE is going to be competitive with longstrike raptors and dragons. But both of those are a LOT of points, and really center a list around them (as do grandhammers). So players who enjoy different lists or different style are a bit frustrated. 

In particular the foot paladins were shafted. Move after translocation gave us a glimpse of what it might be like to be able to run Retributors that can get into combat. But that was way overpowered when applied to Fulminators. So people are just looking at a giant roster of significantly underpowered units, but any complaints are met with "just take raptors and fulminators, omg, so OP." 

I think that's kind of true for all the competitive armies right now, besides maybe SBGL and Seraphon a bit. 

I don't like vanguard raptors because I think it's a feel bad play experience for me to shoot off the key pieces of my opponent's army from 35" away on turn one and two. Fulminators are heavily dependent on big charges and should be relatively easy to screen (compared to other scary hammers in the game like stonehorns or maw krushas). 

Even this FAQ nerfed the Armor artifact for rerolling saves. That isn't impacting a competitive meta, but just kind of sucks because that's one of the best ways to try to keep a Stardrake alive, a unit that also is not part of the competitive meta. 

Just saying I think the salty SCE players and the respondents are kind of talking past each other. There will be a couple very competitive ways to play SCE, and a ton of units people love that are left very far behind. But that's just how the game always seems to work. 

[yukishiro1]

24 minutes ago, readercolin said:

If you want to play stormcast competitively, you can run Liberators, Fulminators, Annihilators, Vanguard Raptors, Stormdrake Guard, Gardus, Knight-Draconis, Knight-Incantor, Knight-Judicator, Lord-Relictor, Lord-Imperitant, and the Lord-Arcanum on Taurelion.  Some questionable picks include Celestant Prime, Bastian, Yndrasta, Vindictors, and Judicators (with Skybolt Bows).  That is 17 units that are at least questionably worth bringing.

 

The flip-side of this is that I can't think of a single other army that has 17 viable warscrolls. Certainly it is significantly more than the average faction has. 

A lot of the reason so many SCE warscrolls are bad is simply because there are way too many of them period. 

[PrimeElectrid]

To be clear I don’t resent kragnos being awesome. That’s cool.

I’m salty that all of destruction now get better charging than sce and many of them have same/similar delivery mechanisms on top which sce once had but now aren’t allowed, and GW casually rolled this out in a balance update, making all the arguments against sce having such mechanisms seem totally superfluous. 
 

Translocate and move Fulminators bad 

Living Cities deep strike Fulminators ok

Teleport Goregruntas, hero phase move, normal move, 3d6 charge ok

They’re the same picture

[yukishiro1]

They're unlikely to have a 3d6 charge if they teleport then move, the IJ teleport is super unreliable compared to the SCE one (less than 50% chance of success vs ~96% chance of success), and the living city one is limited to board edges once per game, but I don't think many people would be upset to see moving after teleporting / deep striking go away from those other factions, too. 

Edited December 22, 2021 by yukishiro1

[Rachmani]

I think people should try to envision themselves in other peoples shoes more while being honest to themselves.

Otherwise discussions like this will lead to nothing.

Like what does „playable“ even mean? In what context? What do people want from an army? What level of professionalism is needed to succeed, have a fun time etc.

If we don’t establish some context we‘ll discuss for hours on end and still be left with nothing of value.

[PrimeElectrid]

1 minute ago, yukishiro1 said:

They're unlikely to have a 3d6 charge if they teleport then move, but I don't think many people would be upset to see moving after teleporting / deep striking go away from those other factions, too. 

Sure they can. Kragnos bubble has a 22” effective range including his move

[Ragest]

Those guys should read khorne's book 

[yukishiro1]

9 minutes ago, PrimeElectrid said:

Sure they can. Kragnos bubble has a 22” effective range including his move

Wholly within, not just within. If you're wholly within that there probably wasn't a need to teleport in most cases (or alternatively, you were 3" out and a 3d6 charge isn't going to make much of a difference vs a 2d6 charge). It will occasionally give you something, don't get me wrong, but it's not the wombo combo you're making it out to be. 

It's going to see a lot more play on ogres than on IJ IMO, IJ don't have any trouble with making charges in the first place. 

But again I agree IJ shouldn't be able to move after teleporting either. It was a bad mechanic on SCE and it's a bad mechanic on IJ, even with the much lowered reliability. 

Edited December 22, 2021 by yukishiro1

[Third]

4 hours ago, Doko said:

Yes,i laugth so hard when i see peoole saying blisbard are bads but irondrakes must be nerfed.

 

I hadnt idea about stats of blisbards but then i go to his scroll and i see how they are so much better than irondrakes for same cost and this unit is supossed to be bad and overcosted due to free sumon???

I would play blisbard above irondrakes everyday.

Irondrakes 8,8damage output at 18" treathrange and 4'4 at melle(new unleash hell makes irondrakes useless) or at 22" treathrange

Blisbarbs 6,6damage at almost 30" treathrange and dont loose damage at melle.(can run and shoot)

So in my experience blissbarbs gonna do more damage than irondrakes allways because enemy know how play and stay at 18'1 of irondrakes so his damage is useless while blisbards have a insane 30" treathrange

 

Can you share some of whatever it is you got? Must be some good ****** man! 

 

Can you please remind me what buffs it's possible to do on Irondrakes, and if you got some spare time, please do look through the Hedonites of Slaanesh book, and get back to me with the amount of buffs available for Blissbarb Archers :) thank you..... 

[NauticalSoup]

2 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

*hyperbole start* Nice, we have 4 useful units. It’s a really good quota in a book with 100ish Warscrolls and basically zero defense against MWs. 👏🏼
*hyperbole end*

Can't wait until all four are nerfed out of the game so I can stop being reminded I'm using the wrong SCE units.

[Ghoooouls]

2 hours ago, readercolin said:

Ahh, yes, the person who sees that 1-2 decent stormcast lists exists and assume that makes everyone happy.  Can't have a thread without them.

Are stormcast players salty that their army isn't the most broken thing imaginable?  No.  Are stormcast players salty that 3/4 of their units aren't worth bringing?  Yes.

If you want to play stormcast competitively, you can run Liberators, Fulminators, Annihilators, Vanguard Raptors, Stormdrake Guard, Gardus, Knight-Draconis, Knight-Incantor, Knight-Judicator, Lord-Relictor, Lord-Imperitant, and the Lord-Arcanum on Taurelion.  Some questionable picks include Celestant Prime, Bastian, Yndrasta, Vindictors, and Judicators (with Skybolt Bows).  That is 17 units that are at least questionably worth bringing.

There are 79 warscrolls.  Let me repeat that.  THERE ARE 79 WARSCROLLS (not counting endless spells).  17/79 is 21%.  That means that 79% of the warscrolls in the book, 79% of the models that people have AREN'T WORTH BRINGING.

Stormcast players don't want their army to be broken.  Stormcast want some of those 62 warscrolls to be playable.  Does move after teleport actually help any of the units above?  Fulminators, sure, though not really in a way that makes them a ton more powerful than they already are.  Anything else, probably not.  But it does make evocators and paladins playable.  What about Gardus's +3" charge ability?  That would make other paladins and evocator units worth playing over annihilators, or be able to play annihilators without paying the Imperitant tax.  Bring back the Heraldor's ability to give a unit run+charge, and you make paladins potentially playable, and open up other dracothian guard for playability.  Adjust coherency to be 1-6 models in the unit and Evocators on Dracolines become viable, and Vanguard-Pallidors might be worth at least considering.  Do just some of those and we can jump from 21% of warscrolls being viable to 50% being viable - that is still a great improvement.

But noooooo.  Stormcast are "Fine".  Just like they were "fine" in 2nd edition because they had a single army that could, if played well, take an army 3-2 in a tournament.  After all, that is about where they should be sitting at again, right?

This is a problem with stormcast just having WAY too many units and similar units. 17 viable units is absolutely great - compare that to flesh eaters with a mere 17 units in total to even choose from. 9 of which are heroes including a useless warband.

17 viable options in a tome is fine. The thing that isn't fine is that GW are treating them like space marines and releasing unit after unit that they don't need, so you end up with a huge amount of stuff that's old, been replaced, reimagined or just straight up isn't good because there's so much to try and make viable.

[Perturbato]

If BT won't bring only a few unit (a lot of recent one and all not from previous version) very good, you would not pay for New minis

 

[Doko]

1 hour ago, Third said:

Can you share some of whatever it is you got? Must be some good ****** man! 

 

Can you please remind me what buffs it's possible to do on Irondrakes, and if you got some spare time, please do look through the Hedonites of Slaanesh book, and get back to me with the amount of buffs available for Blissbarb Archers :) thank you..... 

Where are your numbers? Because all i said true......

Irondrakes median damage is 8,8 with 16" rangue and cant move neither have units in melle

Blisbarbs median damage is 6'6 with 18" rangue+6" move and 3'5 of run so their treathrange is 27'5 and dont mind units in melle that huge advantage for unleash hell.

Now where are you data to refute this and not only this kiddo joke?

Also you can tell me the 1000 points of free sumons that can have the irondrakes? No true?

Show us data and numbers if you want people take you serious because is a fact that blisbarbs are better than irondrakes rigth now with same cost because so easy as same cost 8'8 damage at 16" or 6'6 at 28'....... The choice is a no brainer

Edited December 22, 2021 by Doko

[yukishiro1]

I don't think this is really the place to argue about it, but Blissbarbs have a 6+ save as opposed to a 4+ save with +1 to save vs shooting, which is a pretty massive difference, and they also don't have easy access to -2 rend. 

[Doko]

Sure but that isnt in the irondrakes warscrool neither in his cost,it is a extra 100 points runelord.

Yes the 4 save vs 6 is big(32% better save) but also blibarb have 11 wounds (10% more) so the gap isnt so big.

And also we could mention the others 100+ points that the unit of blibars gonna bring in free sumon.

I am not saying irondrakes for 170 are bad,buy i laugth so hard when i heard some people cry about blibarbs when they are the same or even better than irondrakes

Im pretty sure that only one game with irondrakes cant move,cant have units in melle and only 16" rangue and everyone gonna see how more playable and reliably is have 27" rangue and can unleash hell with units in melle at his 100% damage output and not 50% as irondrakes.

In fact after the nerf to unleash hell the irondrakes must have got a decrease in points as every other cos rangued unit that halves his damage with units in combat

Edited December 23, 2021 by Doko

[vinnyt]

3 hours ago, Gailon said:

I think some of the Stormcast "saltiness" is a reflection of poor internal balance, a huge list of units, and an army that has been around a long time so people have their favorite toys. 

SCE is going to be competitive with longstrike raptors and dragons. But both of those are a LOT of points, and really center a list around them (as do grandhammers). So players who enjoy different lists or different style are a bit frustrated. 

In particular the foot paladins were shafted. Move after translocation gave us a glimpse of what it might be like to be able to run Retributors that can get into combat. But that was way overpowered when applied to Fulminators. So people are just looking at a giant roster of significantly underpowered units, but any complaints are met with "just take raptors and fulminators, omg, so OP." 

I think that's kind of true for all the competitive armies right now, besides maybe SBGL and Seraphon a bit. 

I don't like vanguard raptors because I think it's a feel bad play experience for me to shoot off the key pieces of my opponent's army from 35" away on turn one and two. Fulminators are heavily dependent on big charges and should be relatively easy to screen (compared to other scary hammers in the game like stonehorns or maw krushas). 

Even this FAQ nerfed the Armor artifact for rerolling saves. That isn't impacting a competitive meta, but just kind of sucks because that's one of the best ways to try to keep a Stardrake alive, a unit that also is not part of the competitive meta. 

Just saying I think the salty SCE players and the respondents are kind of talking past each other. There will be a couple very competitive ways to play SCE, and a ton of units people love that are left very far behind. But that's just how the game always seems to work. 

Yeah, I'd like to be able to take every warscroll in my books in super competitive lists too. Everyone would.

It's just amusing that in a book with roughly as many warscrolls as GA:Death, multiple extremely strong builds (shootcast, dragoncast, annihilatorcast, whatever), people are still complaining. In fact, in an update that dropped the points of some SCE special characters and removed one of the ways to protect the big beasties from them, people are still complaining that it didn't do ENOUGH. 

I haven't seen ANY battle reports with pictures and analysis in the stormcast subforum. Absolutely no attempt at actually playtesting alternative builds besides people just reporting "oh yeah i did this and it didn't work". The SCE community seems only united in their bitterness that not every unit is an absolute wrecking ball at all things. You want the other 62!!!! warscrolls in your book to be competitive? Maybe actually try them in fusion builds with proven pieces. Find synergies. Heck, you've got a podcast that's pretty darn good. Throw some batreps on there.  

Also not sure what you mean by not being able to get foot units into combat. You may not be able to choose the exact combat, but Gotrek managed just fine with 4" movement and he doesn't even get a deepstrike or teleport. Oh, you can also resurrect them for free in a couple different ways to help mitigate chip damage. 

[yukishiro1]

Oh, the times we live in, where people complain that a 2+ rerollable teleport that can't be stopped in any way is insufficient mobility. 😁

Edited December 23, 2021 by yukishiro1

[Jaskier]

TIL someone in this thread lives in a magical world where Irondrakes can't use the Soulscream Bridge and Living City doesn't exist...I say magical because I'd like to live in that world too Oh and apparently the gap between 10 4+ save (3+ against shooting) wounds and 11 6+ save wounds "isn't that big." 

.....

what

Edited December 23, 2021 by Jaskier

[Sagittarii Orientalis]

3 hours ago, vinnyt said:

I haven't seen ANY battle reports with pictures and analysis in the stormcast subforum. Absolutely no attempt at actually playtesting alternative builds besides people just reporting "oh yeah i did this and it didn't work". The SCE community seems only united in their bitterness that not every unit is an absolute wrecking ball at all things. You want the other 62!!!! warscrolls in your book to be competitive? Maybe actually try them in fusion builds with proven pieces. Find synergies. Heck, you've got a podcast that's pretty darn good. Throw some batreps on there.  

Also not sure what you mean by not being able to get foot units into combat. You may not be able to choose the exact combat, but Gotrek managed just fine with 4" movement and he doesn't even get a deepstrike or teleport. Oh, you can also resurrect them for free in a couple different ways to help mitigate chip damage. 

"Maybe actually try them in fusion builds with proven pieces. Find synergies." is not a valid argument against posters who complained about internal balance of SCE battletomes. You are not providing any counterexamples. The argument is not too different from pointless "git gud" rhetoric which occasionally comes out in balance discussions.

Also if you think making an intact unit of paladins, which usually have 3+ save, across the board on foot to combat is similar to sending Gotrek, a model with one of the best defensive mechanisms existing in the game, into melee then I must highly doubt your capability to make fair comparisons between units.

And resurrection does not come free in SCE, unless you meant to say investing 300+ points on Yndrasta with lackluster combat power costs nothing in already expensive SCE roster. If you were referring to Lord-Arcanum's unique ability, then you are vastly overestimating its utility.

Edited December 23, 2021 by Sagittarii Orientalis

[Carnith]

Also I keep seeing how busted IJ's teleport in when it comes on a fragile caster, or thorugh a warlord battalion with often no buffs to cast on a 7+ and spend CP to get a move. Compared to... a 2+. Yeah okay.

[Sagittarii Orientalis]

3 minutes ago, Carnith said:

Also I keep seeing how busted IJ's teleport in when it comes on a fragile caster, or thorugh a warlord battalion with often no buffs to cast on a 7+ and spend CP to get a move. Compared to... a 2+. Yeah okay.

If I can make my hammer units to actually move after teleportation, then I would gladly pay those costs. You write as if the Ironjaw shenanigan you mentioned and translocation are identical.

Edited December 23, 2021 by Sagittarii Orientalis

[Carnith]

7 minutes ago, Sagittarii Orientalis said:

If I can make my hammer units to actually move after teleportation, then I would gladly pay those costs. You write as if the Ironjaw shenanigan you mentioned and translocation are identical.

They aren't. One's a prayer that I can't interact with. The other is subject to poor dice rolls and opponents usually having wizards to counterspell. 

[yukishiro1]

People might want to make a new thread to argue about Stormcast vs Ironjawz teleports, it doesn't really seem particularly relevant here.