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Stormcast Eternals 3.0 - There is no "a" in Vindictors


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7 minutes ago, Freejack02 said:

What are you talking about

he's saying that a list with Stormdrake guards hasn't won a tournament* yet -this is to be read in connection with the debate concerning their excessive power.

*defintion of tournament is an event with (at least) 5 games and 25 players.

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1 hour ago, Doko said:

So we continue with dragons without winning any tournament(5 rounds and 25+ players or isnt a tournament only friends playing).

The list with fulmis and judis is the best in paper and i dont get why people preffer raptors when have the same damage than judis but 12 wounds vs 30 wounds for only 50 extra points

Longstrikes have +6" range, cost less points (though they arent battleline), have a smaller unit footprint, Rend-2 is much better than Rend-1, and they can get +1 hit from Aetherwings in every phase - relevant for Thunderbolt Volley and Unleash Hell.

Both units are good

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7 hours ago, Doko said:

So we continue with dragons without winning any tournament(5 rounds and 25+ players or isnt a tournament only friends playing).

The list with fulmis and judis is the best in paper and i dont get why people preffer raptors when have the same damage than judis but 12 wounds vs 30 wounds for only 50 extra points

Raptors are slightly higher damage, actually. Significantly so vs. Kragnos, which is relevant these days. 6 Raptors+5 Liberators is also slightly cheaper than 15 Longbow Judicators. Combine that with the extra 6" range, and Raptors just have more utility.

 

They do have a couple of awful matchups though like vs. Coalesced and Nighthaunt. And they are made of paper mache vs shooting. But the moment people seem to think that's an acceptable trade-off.

Edited by Squark
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40 minutes ago, Tizianolol said:

Guys exuse me for repost, but for bring it down opponent must kill me just 1 drake or the entire unit? Thx a lot!

The entire unit. Bring it down refers to destroying units, not models.

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21 minutes ago, Lord Krungharr said:

Anyone tried Krondys with Flaming Weapon on his tail vs hordes of goblins or Bloodreavers yet?  Sounds like an amazing experience!

Krondys cant learn Flaming Weapon

Unique characters cant take any Enhancement unless there is a special rule saying otherwise, like there is with most battletome spell lores.

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tomorrow I face a list of legion of the first prince (belakor, Kairos, etc) with this list:


++ **Pitched Battle GHB 2021** 2,000 (Order - Stormcast Eternals) [1,990pts] ++

+Core Battalion+

Core Battalion: Battle Regiment

+ leader +

Knight-Draconis [300pts]: Aeonfire Blade, Battle Regiment - 1 Commander, Celestial Instincts, Draconic Fangs and Talons, Draconic Flamestream, Flaming Weapon, General, Master of the Celestial Menagerie
. Arcane Tome: Arcane Bolt, Mystic Shield

Knight-Relictor [140pts]: Battle Regiment - 0-2 Sub-Commander, Relic Maul, Thunderbolt Volley

+ battle line +

Stormdrake Guard [340pts]: 2 Stormdrake Guard, Battle Regiment - 2-5 Troops, Draconic Fangs and Talons, Draconic Flamestream, 2x Drakerider's Lance

Stormdrake Guard [340pts]: 2 Stormdrake Guard, Battle Regiment - 2-5 Troops, Draconic Fangs and Talons, Draconic Flamestream, 2x Drakerider's Lance

Vindictors [130pts]: 5 Vindictors, Battle Regiment - 2-5 Troops, Stormspear

Vindictors [130pts]: 5 Vindictors, Battle Regiment - 2-5 Troops, Stormspear

Vindictors [130pts]: 5 Vindictors, Battle Regiment - 2-5 Troops, Stormspear

+Other+

Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows [480pts]: 6 Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows, Beak and Claws, Heavy Stock, Longstrike Crossbow, Reinforced

+ Allegiance +

Allegiance
. Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals: Hammers of Sigmar, Stormkeep

+ GameOptions +

Game Type: 2000 Points - Battlehost

grand strategy

++ Total: [1,990pts] ++

but I don't know how to play him, I understand that the raptor unit with belakor is going to stop me. my idea was to kill kairos with the double shot but I'm afraid that until turn 2 I won't be able to.

any ideas? best dragons in a unit of 4?

Greetings and thanks for the help.

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Dragons in a unit of 4 is a doubled bladed edge. You get better double tap from Knight Draconis and can get the onedrop. But Belakor can do Belakor things to a single unit. But then he doesn't do Belakor things to longstrikes, which is a win, too.

Also do yourself a favor and make the Knight Relictor a Lord Relictor.

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There are 2 changes that I would make to this list, with a third option.

First, I would swap the knight relictor with a lord relictor if possible.  Since he isn't your general, getting the 2+ is better than the 3+, though it would matter less if he was your general with high priest.

Second, I would swap one of the vindicators for an incantor.  Having an auto unbind is usually fairly important when facing legions to deny Kairos on turn 1 before you can blow him away.  This also let's you afford to be able to give away turn 1 if you want, as it also let's you fit everything in the battle regiment.

The last thing would be to combine the dragons into 1 unit.  This is more playstyle dependent, but I like it because it makes it easier to buff them with celestial blades/mystic shield.  It also forces your opponent to decide if they want to belakor the dragons or the longstrikes, and forcing them to make that choice will always leave them in a bad spot.  That being said, there are arguments both ways - I just prefer the 4 man squad to the 2 man squads.

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Can Path to Glory be discussed here? We’re planning a friendly PTG escalation campaign, and I’m going to try using a Knight-Draconis as a warlord.

I’ve been pondering going super-elite and playing the KD and Bastian Carthalos as my 600pts list… it would be kind of funny to play a game with only two models. Bastian might have decent survivability in a low-point PTG game, with his effective 16 wounds and his ability to fully heal himself after killing a model. I doubt an opponent would have enough concentrated damage potential to take him out easily. The KD by himself would be OK (obviously his command ability is useless) but I’d plan on adding a single SDG at higher point values (probably swapping out Bastian).

But thoughts on a Knight-Draconis + Bastian list? Obviously the plan would be to smash face, not play objectives. Would it be too oppressive? Or hopeless as I’d be terribly out-unit’ed?
 

Edited by I_usually_just_lurk
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2 hours ago, I_usually_just_lurk said:

Can Path to Glory be discussed here? We’re planning a friendly PTG escalation campaign, and I’m going to try using a Knight-Draconis as a warlord.

Path to glory can certainly be discussed, however as it tends to be more of a casual playstyle, it tends to get more ignored due to not tending to be a format where you want to min/max.

2 hours ago, I_usually_just_lurk said:

But thoughts on a Knight-Draconis + Bastian list? Obviously the plan would be to smash face, not play objectives. Would it be too oppressive? Or hopeless as I’d be terribly out-unit’ed?

So the key thing here is - what is your play group?  Is your play group really competitive trying to eek every advantage out?  Then your army list is (probably) fine.  Does your play group tend towards more casual, or lean towards rule of cool rather that warscroll power?  Shelve your idea and don't run any massive monsters like Bastian/Knight-Draconis until you are at LEAST at 1k points.

Something to keep in mind here is that if you want to keep your playgroup interested and not just stomp them, you need to remember to keep the game fun.  Running over your opponent with 2 nearly impossible to kill monsters (at least at 600 points) is going to make your friends just not want to play with you.  It is not an entertaining game to sit down and go "there is exactly NOTHING I can do to win".  This is then going to lead to "Yeah, we just don't feel like playing anymore" and you not having games at all.

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26 minutes ago, readercolin said:

It is not an entertaining game to sit down and go "there is exactly NOTHING I can do to win".  This is then going to lead to "Yeah, we just don't feel like playing anymore" and you not having games at all.

This is actually, at least in my experience, basically just how sigmar games sub 1k tend to go by default because of the way turns/combat alternations go. Even with two casual lists the warping effect of small points games makes it seem like almost every single one is lost and won in construction. 

Even at 1k we've found it basically mandatory to ban 300 point plus units to make it feel even semi playable. We're even thinking about restricting reinforcements. It's so easy to just completely roll over the other list if you connect first with your big hammer unit, particularly when casuals are involved (because they don't know how to screen effectively) and it's trivial to shove most of your points into a single activation at the top of combat.

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Great points both. My play group is pretty competitive (however I am not). And I totally agree with the comments on small Matched Play games — we tend to play 1250pts max, with big centerpieces (Glotkin, etc.) and it’s really hard to have balanced games.

If the 300+300 is too oppressive (it might be), I’ll do something else. There are some SC PTG rules where you can upgrade a Knight on foot to a Knight-Draconis; maybe this will be the way to go. A Knight-Judicator might be fun in narrative games (and I love the model!).

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Can anyone help me out with the math again? Are starsoul maces worth it? I currently have 3 Paladins with Maces and 9 with Hammers as Retributors. Got a box on the way I want to build as Protectors. So if I convert one hammer to a protector, build them all with the spears and convert two of the Retributors to Maces I'd have 5 maces, 6 Spears and 7 Hammers, meaning I could play a unit of 10 of both and a unit of 5 with up to one mace of the other variant. Never played protectors, they seem almost better than the maces 😅

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46 minutes ago, Fuxxx said:

Can anyone help me out with the math again? Are starsoul maces worth it? I currently have 3 Paladins with Maces and 9 with Hammers as Retributors. Got a box on the way I want to build as Protectors. So if I convert one hammer to a protector, build them all with the spears and convert two of the Retributors to Maces I'd have 5 maces, 6 Spears and 7 Hammers, meaning I could play a unit of 10 of both and a unit of 5 with up to one mace of the other variant. Never played protectors, they seem almost better than the maces 😅

Retributors are generally considered better without maces, as their hammers deal more reliable damage and have a decent chance of turning into mortal wounds anyway.

A 10 block of protectors can have up to 4 maces in the unit, and are a spectacular candidate for Unleash Thy Hatred, as both the spears and the maces get +1 attack, and the range on the spears mean that so long as the maces are out front, everyone can still get into combat. 

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4 minutes ago, OkayestDM said:

Retributors are generally considered better without maces, as their hammers deal more reliable damage and have a decent chance of turning into mortal wounds anyway.

A 10 block of protectors can have up to 4 maces in the unit, and are a spectacular candidate for Unleash Thy Hatred, as both the spears and the maces get +1 attack, and the range on the spears mean that so long as the maces are out front, everyone can still get into combat. 

Thank you very much ;) I'll have to think how I built them a bit more it seems :)

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On 1/21/2022 at 3:23 PM, I_usually_just_lurk said:

Can Path to Glory be discussed here? We’re planning a friendly PTG escalation campaign, and I’m going to try using a Knight-Draconis as a warlord.

I’ve been pondering going super-elite and playing the KD and Bastian Carthalos as my 600pts list… it would be kind of funny to play a game with only two models. Bastian might have decent survivability in a low-point PTG game, with his effective 16 wounds and his ability to fully heal himself after killing a model. I doubt an opponent would have enough concentrated damage potential to take him out easily. The KD by himself would be OK (obviously his command ability is useless) but I’d plan on adding a single SDG at higher point values (probably swapping out Bastian).

But thoughts on a Knight-Draconis + Bastian list? Obviously the plan would be to smash face, not play objectives. Would it be too oppressive? Or hopeless as I’d be terribly out-unit’ed?
 

Bastian in 600 pts is basically a big middle finger. The guy can clear out alone entire PTG armies because most of battleplans have no objective and are basically about killing the ennemy. In PTG most armies are like 1 hero et 3/4 not reinforced units. I run two PTG campaign and someone sending bastian and a knight draconis would basically be a WAAC in my eyes.

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56 minutes ago, feadair said:

Stormcast win GoldCon. List:

Hammers

Draconis
Relictor
Incantor

4 SDG
2x 5 Vindictors
6 Longstrikes

Any more details? Was it a 5-0 win? How many attendees? I'm curious if the "SDG aren't even strong" people will finally move the goalposts to justify "win". 

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1 hour ago, feadair said:

Stormcast win GoldCon. List:

Hammers

Draconis
Relictor
Incantor

4 SDG
2x 5 Vindictors
6 Longstrikes

the really interesting thing is that he went for command entourage + brotherhood for a 4 drops just to take Call for Aid (on top of thunderbolt volley), whereas he could have gong 1drop. Really curious about the reasoning behind this one. (also, it's a stormkeep list)

Edited by Marcvs
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21 hours ago, ledha said:

Bastian in 600 pts is basically a big middle finger. The guy can clear out alone entire PTG armies because most of battleplans have no objective and are basically about killing the ennemy. In PTG most armies are like 1 hero et 3/4 not reinforced units. I run two PTG campaign and someone sending bastian and a knight draconis would basically be a WAAC in my eyes.

Yeah I won’t bring Bastian, even in our competitive group. For the record, I had to google “WAAC” :)

I’m painting Stormdrakes for matched play, so obviously I’d love being able to do a PTG with them. I’m now thinking of a KD, a SDG and a single Fulminator @ 600 pts. It will probably go as most very low points games go: if I connect first on the charge, I’m good. If the opponent connects first, I don’t accomplish anything.

Just not sure how to build around a KD for PTG, to be honest. 

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16 minutes ago, I_usually_just_lurk said:

Yeah I won’t bring Bastian, even in our competitive group. For the record, I had to google “WAAC” :)

I’m painting Stormdrakes for matched play, so obviously I’d love being able to do a PTG with them. I’m now thinking of a KD, a SDG and a single Fulminator @ 600 pts. It will probably go as most very low points games go: if I connect first on the charge, I’m good. If the opponent connects first, I don’t accomplish anything.

Just not sure how to build around a KD for PTG, to be honest. 

I am not familiar with PtG rules but are you sure you can take a single Fulminator without a lord celestant on dracoth?

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