AoS 3 - Nighthaunt Discussion

[Evil Bob]

11 hours ago, lare2 said:

OK, I've a game Thursday (probably against Giants) and I think I've settled on the below. No idea how I'll get on but the only way I'll learn is by trying! Any c&c greatly appreciated. 

snip

30 x Bladegheists – 525
Hex – 160

Snip

Bladegheists to deepstrike with KGC and 1xSH offering support, the latter tanking for KGC

Hex running around doing stuff.

Please share how this game turns out.

That aside I’m rather pleased with Hexwraiths. Their MW output might in theory mathematically be going down but it has always been a bit tricky to pull off the spectral hunters anyways. Not to mention getting stuck in a fight mostly stymied the option. Backing up and ramming every turn (not necessarily the same units) is going see Hexwraiths playing as if they are in a demolition derby. I had been running them in units of ten but being “forced” to try them in teams of five doesn’t bother me.

Hexwraiths and Spirit Hosts might become my go-to for battleline. It’s hard to be sure with how close Chainwrasps are with the cheaper wound count.

I am going to wish you luck with the Bladegheist Revenants. If your opponent figures out to target them then everything will come down to how often 4+ invulnerables happen. It really is sad how easy they are to remove from the table while not quite reaching the level of glass-cannon. These visually appealing models deserve at least a -2 Rend, the Devs have cheated them.

A real shame CoGs can’t boost the Wave of Terror options. If “unmodified” wasn’t the rule poor Glaivewraiths would have finally had a little love or at least a hug.

-

You have the points to squeeze in a Burning Head. More MW options can’t hurt.

If you end up fighting Giants try and alpha the baby giants with the bladeghiests. The -1 rend will matter there and any you can remove will drastically reduce his army’s offensive power. Whereas the big hitter might get bracketed but even with statistical rolls will mess up valuable units engaged with him.

[Vastus]

51 minutes ago, Beliman said:

No. You can still take him in any other Nighthaunts subfaction, but he will not get any subaction bonus appart from the Grieving Legion

Phew, that's good to know. I rather like my Kurdoss conversion so I want to use him.

[Rachmani]

The Bladegheist Subfaction looks very cool.

I think a KoS + Dreadblade will not only look cool and be flavorful, but issuing all out attack or our new improved ward save to two units of bladegheists sounds good. Pair that with a black coach and we'll surely pack some hefty punch. By charging alongside the respective units they'll also increase the chance for those sweet debuffs we all long for.

The strongest build? I have no idea. Probably not. Emerald Host looks to be more flexible and probably better as of now. But I think it'll be strong enough to play in earnest - while looking formidable.

[Boggler]

Here is where I'm leaning if everything leaked turns out to be true! Emerald Host

Spoiler

Kurdoss	210
ST	115
GoS	150
Spirit Hosts	125
Spirit Hosts	125
Hex	160
Hex	160
Hex	160
Rasps	110
Bladegheist	175
Myrmourns	105
Krondspine	400
	1995

The Krondspine really pairs well with our new WoT table and multi-charges. Maybe get an early Monstrous Takeover, and hope for a mid game Broken Ranks with the Monster. 3* -4 rend damage 4 attacks is no joke. Also if your Incarnate is still engaged in your turn you can just retreat and charge back in with something else if you want.

The Rasps, Bladegheists and Myrmourns go off on their own. With the Rasps acting as the screen.

3 units of Hex can help with a lot of board control and MW's where required or to just lend a hand on a multi-charge.

Kurdoss and his Spirit Hosts blob around where required. The army is faster than you think.

I wish I had the pts for another unit of Myrmourns.

No clue what Artefact to take, maybe the Beacon...

[Jabbuk]

13 minutes ago, Boggler said:

Here is where I'm leaning if everything leaked turns out to be true! Emerald Host

  Hide contents

Kurdoss	210
ST	115
GoS	150
Spirit Hosts	125
Spirit Hosts	125
Hex	160
Hex	160
Hex	160
Rasps	110
Bladegheist	175
Myrmourns	105
Krondspine	400
	1995

The Krondspine really pairs well with our new WoT table and multi-charges. Maybe get an early Monstrous Takeover, and hope for a mid game Broken Ranks with the Monster. 3* -4 rend damage 4 attacks is no joke. Also if your Incarnate is still engaged in your turn you can just retreat and charge back in with something else if you want.

The Rasps, Bladegheists and Myrmourns go off on their own. With the Rasps acting as the screen.

3 units of Hex can help with a lot of board control and MW's where required or to just lend a hand on a multi-charge.

Kurdoss and his Spirit Hosts blob around where required. The army is faster than you think.

I wish I had the pts for another unit of Myrmourns.

No clue what Artefact to take, maybe the Beacon...

Do you guys take automatically into account that the Krondspine can be played in your lists? I was under the impression that you needed to play the new specific battlepacks in order to play it. The Krondspine can just be used in normal Matched Play?

[dmorley21]

Remember Krondspine turns off retreat and charge. The trick will be to just let it anvil something or to be within its bubble before you charge and not once you’re in combat.

And yes @Jabbuk, the warscroll is matched play legal in regular matched play. 
 

As for the questions about Nagash - losing Reaping Scythe makes his melee so much less reliable. He’s still an option though. Just by having him you’re returning 4 wounds/models to each of your units in your hero phase. That’s huge.    Soul Cage remains and the new Spectral Tether means the dude can teleport around the board. Load up 6 Arcane Bolts, teleport, and just zap a support hero to oblivion. 
 

I think Nagash and Krondspine remain solid options, but don’t feel like musts at all anymore. And that’s a great spot to be. 

[dmorley21]

I actually think people are really sleeping on the fact that Nagash now has access to a teleport. Makes his reach with Umbral Spellportal table wide and just opens up so much.

[Boggler]

7 minutes ago, dmorley21 said:

I actually think people are really sleeping on the fact that Nagash now has access to a teleport. Makes his reach with Umbral Spellportal table wide and just opens up so much.

Sleeping maybe. The teleport is great, for sure. The whole spell lore is amazing. I loved the old Spirit Drain. The new version is fine too. Especially as you say... you won't be able to hide anywhere... 30 Sentinels? 60 Zombies?

His points stayed the same. Everything else went up... Except Hex, who'll be able to keep up with that Teleport with their 24" moves...

He'll favour Kurdoss now, as he's cheaper and hits harder.

Spoiler

Nagash	955
Kurdoss	210
Hex	160
Hex	160
Hex	160
Spirit Hosts	125
Spirit Hosts	125
Portal	70
	1965

We'll see... and I didn't even have to assemble all these damn Dreadscythes... Good times!

[The_Dudemeister]

So far noone talked about the Briar Queen.

For starters, both her and her retinue are now the only units left with a 6" move. Did GW forget about them when they made 8" move universal for the new tome (LOVE LOVE LOVE that change by the way!).

 

Let's look at her 6x Chainrasp retinue though and compare them to regular Chainrasps. All other rules being equal, they have 6" instead of 8", 3 attacks instead of 2, 10 bravery instead of 8... and 2 wounds each 😳

 

Compared to 10 Chainrasps the 6-man retinue has a total of 19 attacks (instead of 21), 12 wounds (instead of 10). They're actually tankier without losing out on attacks really. They miss the SUMMONABLE keyword though.

 

If they had points costs as a standalone unit, they'd be virtually identical to 10 Chainrasps. Meaning the Briar Queen alone would be costed right between Guardian of Souls and Reikenor. Her spell is still exceptionally strong with great range and with her innate bodyguard ability, she's not dying immediately anymore. Even though the whole package of them is now vastly better and actually playable for the first time, personally I'm not very excited to field them. Though after trying all the competitive options, I'll definitely put them on the table.

 

What's y'alls opinion?

[Neck-Romantic]

Eager to see what the Mourngul ends up doing. 

So far it seems like a lot of tools in the toolbox, but nothing really jumps out at me as far as obvious synergies goes.

I instinctually cringed at the loss of mortals; but it looks like the idea is to do ots of retreat-and-charge in order to degrade their save to the point loads of wounds go through.

Im at work rn but I would suggest searching for endless spells or artifact combos that key in to retreat and charge, bravery hits that tie in with terrify, and ways to tie together the new effects.

Spirit Hosts as hero bubble wrap is interesting but the Heros themselves *seem* to be doing less overall.

*Still a possibility of new sculpts or kits for Hosts and Hexes launching beside the book; never know.*

***edit***

The Host and Hex model art in the leaked book is still the old models 🙄

Edited May 2, 2022 by Neck-Romantic

[Rachmani]

As the Krondspine got mentioned.

The timing isn’t excellent, but we have to ask outselves, what we do *against* it, as it blocks retreats, which are a staple of ours. 
 

At least the Bladegheist faction should take a hard look at Awlrach. For that exact reason.

[The World Tree]

24 minutes ago, Rachmani said:

As the Krondspine got mentioned.

The timing isn’t excellent, but we have to ask outselves, what we do *against* it, as it blocks retreats, which are a staple of ours. 
 

At least the Bladegheist faction should take a hard look at Awlrach. For that exact reason.

The one upside to having no monsters is that it can't level up!

[Rachmani]

16 minutes ago, The World Tree said:

The one upside to having no monsters is that it can't level up!

Well said. If we ignore any endless spells we should be somewhat able to starve it. Still a potential problem to look out for.

Do we have any good charge bonuses?

[Neck-Romantic]

Only charge bonus we get is on the Glaivewraiths. Its substantial... but they're sooo overpriced now. And, please; they have spear/polearms...why range 1"

[dmorley21]

1 hour ago, Rachmani said:

As the Krondspine got mentioned.

The timing isn’t excellent, but we have to ask outselves, what we do *against* it, as it blocks retreats, which are a staple of ours. 
 

At least the Bladegheist faction should take a hard look at Awlrach. For that exact reason.

Pin it. It can’t retreat either and with Ethereal, it’ll have trouble chewing through a unit. 6 Spirit Hosts or 20 Chainrasps should be able to tie it up long enough to make a difference. 

[That Guy]

6 hours ago, Neck-Romantic said:

Eager to see what the Mourngul ends up doing. 

So far it seems like a lot of tools in the toolbox, but nothing really jumps out at me as far as obvious synergies goes.

I instinctually cringed at the loss of mortals; but it looks like the idea is to do ots of retreat-and-charge in order to degrade their save to the point loads of wounds go through.

Im at work rn but I would suggest searching for endless spells or artifact combos that key in to retreat and charge, bravery hits that tie in with terrify, and ways to tie together the new effects.

Spirit Hosts as hero bubble wrap is interesting but the Heros themselves *seem* to be doing less overall.

*Still a possibility of new sculpts or kits for Hosts and Hexes launching beside the book; never know.*

***edit***

The Host and Hex model art in the leaked book is still the old models 🙄

I hope they make him cheaper. It would really be nice to have him around 200-250p, but if not I hope they pip up his rend to at least -2 and i hope they'll give him something else. A better ethereal save would be nice. Other than that, with the new nighthaunt rules i think he'll do better even now. Forget about his warscroll frightful touch and play him with the new armywide one for now and see how it feels. I think the combo of a cruciator with mourngul will be absolutely bonkers now. Able to yolo the mourngul into anything and than have them -1 to hit  and -1Dmg, add in shademist for -1to wound and my god.... Also the moment you realize you can use this on a Mourngul: 

[lare2]

The more and more I ponder our new rules, the more and more I realise I'm gonna need tokens to remember all the debuffs in effect!

[Beliman]

6 Spirit Torments Hosts+Krulghast seems to be a good tarpit for big threats: 

• Krulghast with Look Out Sir, bodyguard (3+) and 4+ unrendable save.
• 18 Unrendable wounds with a Ward 6+ (or 5+ with 1CP) and -1 melee damage.
• No inspiring presence for engaged enemy units.
• Wave of Terror (if needed).
• (Conditional bonus) Grieving Legion don't let the enemy retreat. 10+ models!!!

Edit: Thx @That Guy!

Edited May 2, 2022 by Beliman

[That Guy]

I recently got the Krondspine. It’s amazing, but now with the new tome of this faction specifically i feel awkward of using it here. You want to be in it’s aura and you don’t. The army wants to charge and it enables them! But than it counters our ethereal and wave of terror synergy by not allowing us to retreat in its aura.

[That Guy]

12 minutes ago, Beliman said:

6 Spirit Torments+Krulghast seems to be a good tarpit for big threats: 

• Krulghast with Look Out Sir, bodyguard (3+) and 4+ unrendable save.
• 18 Unrendable wounds with a Ward 6+ (or 5+ with 1CP) and -1 melee damage.
• No inspiring presence for engaged enemy units.
• Wave of Terror (if needed).
• (Conditional bonus) Grieving Legion don't let the enemy retreat.

I assume you mean 6 Spirit Host. I really like the Krulghast for the fact we can baby Seraphon and give the top tables a piece of their own. I was actually planning to make a Nagash list with a Krulghast, Spirit Torment and Spirit Hosts. I think it'll be a pretty resilient group. Sadly the Grieving Legion ability only works if your unit is 10 or more models, so it won't work for the Spirit hosts.

19 minutes ago, lare2 said:

The more and more I ponder our new rules, the more and more I realise I'm gonna need tokens to remember all the debuffs in effect!

Yeah I think for this release i might double down on tome + warscroll cards and tokens. It will be an army in which you need to micro manage a lot.

[That Guy]

Made a few Nagash lists. Let me know what you think.

Emerald Host:

Spoiler

Army Faction: Nighthaunt
    - Army Subfaction: Emerald Host
    - Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
    - Triumphs: Bloodthirsty

LEADER

Nagash (955)
    - General
    - Spells: Entire Nighthaunt Spell Lore 

Krulghast (150)
    - General
    - Command Traits: Cloaked in Shadow
    - Artefacts: Pendant of the Fell Wind

Spirit Torment (115)

BATTLELINE

2x Spirit Hosts (375)

Hexwraiths (160)

Hexwraiths (160) 

ENDLESS SPELL

Umbral Spellportal (70)

TOTAL POINTS: (1985/2000)

Scarlet Doom:

Spoiler

Army Faction: Nighthaunt
    - Army Subfaction: Scarlet Doom
    - Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
    - Triumphs: Bloodthirsty

LEADER

Nagash (955)
    - General
    - Spells: Entire Nighthaunt Spell Lore 

Knight of Shrouds on Ethereal Steed (155)
    - General
    - Command Traits: Cloaked in Shadow
    - Pendant of the Fell Wind
 

BATTLELINE

1x Bladegheist Revenants (350)

Bladegheist Revenants (175)

Bladegheist Revenants (175)

Chainrasp Horde (110)

ENDLESS SPELL

Umbral Spellportal (70)

TOTAL POINTS: (1990/2000)

 

Grieving Legion: 

Spoiler

Army Faction: Nighthaunt
    - Army Subfaction: Grieving Legion
    - Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
    - Triumphs: Bloodthirsty

LEADER

Nagash (955)
    - General
    - Spells: Entire Nighthaunt Spell Lore 

Kurdoss (210)
    - General

BATTLELINE

Spirit Hosts (125)

1x Chainrasps (220)

1x Chainrasps (220)

Craventhrone Guard (115)

Craventhrone Guard (115)

ENDLESS SPELL

Emerald Lifeswarm (40)

TOTAL POINTS: (2000/2000)

 

Quicksilver Dead: 

Spoiler

 

Edited May 2, 2022 by That Guy

[Landohammer]

Played a game with new rules using Quicksilver Dead vs Nurgle w/Incarnate

List was 3x10 Harridans, 2x10 bladegheist, 2x8 myrmourn, kurdoss, and kruciator.

Lost 25-26, here is my hot take.

The Good

-Kurdoss is an absolute beatstick in melee. He single handedly put 20+ wounds on the incarnate over the course of the game and bashed in several strong units. Also stole 2CP as well!

-Harridans are amazing on the charge, but getting the enemy unit wounded before they strike is tricky. They pair well with the Kruciator since he can plink wounds off before they charge and his -1 damage combos well with their -1 to wound and potential -1 to hit. 

-Harrdians in quicksilver dead hitting a 8+ on the charge actually put nurgle in multiple situations where they got no save OR ward. I can't stress how powerful felt to just pour wounds into a unit without ANY saves. I killed entire units of plagebearers in a single round which NEVER happens otherwise.  

-The black coach was an absolute menace. A 4+/4++ with 12 wounds and a free teleport each turn was incredibly hard for my opponent to kill. He also did 7 mortals with this explosion. 

The Bad

-Myrnmourn didn't do anything of value. My opponent didnt have much magic and just shot them off early. I think I will pass on them in the future. Their points per wound is absolutely insane and they burned valuable reinforcement points.

-The effectiveness of our units seems to rely entirely on getting the charge off. I bled a lot of points in my opponents turn and a few key failed charges were devastating. 

Verdict

Overall I am really digging the new book. There is still a lot to sort through (I'm honestly torn between Emerald Host, Scarlet Doom, and Quicksilver Dead) but it looks to be a solid mid-tier book overall with the ability to perform better with higher skill and thats exactly what I wanted. 

[Boggler]

12 minutes ago, Landohammer said:

Played a game with new rules using Quicksilver Dead vs Nurgle w/Incarnate

-Harrdians in quicksilver dead hitting a 8+ on the charge actually put nurgle in multiple situations where they got no save OR ward. I can't stress how powerful felt to just pour wounds into a unit without ANY saves. I killed entire units of plagebearers in a single round which NEVER happens otherwise.  

Did you know what your opponent was playing beforehand?

I'm not down on Dreadscythes. They seem really good, they just aren't their old scroll which isn't that old!

Getting the most out of the new scroll likely isn't that hard either. The 6" within is possible in a lot of situations and if you're choosing to activate them 2nd or 3rd they'll be at -1 to hit/wound if you want and be close to something that was slain.

The new Processions allow you to customize your list if you have an overall plan of what you want to achieve.

Dammit! I have to buy a Black Coach?

[Gitzdee]

1 minute ago, Boggler said:

Dammit! I have to buy a Black Coach?

Its the model i had the most fun painting up so far from everything i own. Looks awesome on the table too.

[Landohammer]

13 minutes ago, Boggler said:

Did you know what your opponent was playing beforehand?

I'm not down on Dreadscythes. They seem really good, they just aren't their old scroll which isn't that old!

Getting the most out of the new scroll likely isn't that hard either. The 6" within is possible in a lot of situations and if you're choosing to activate them 2nd or 3rd they'll be at -1 to hit/wound if you want and be close to something that was slain.

The new Processions allow you to customize your list if you have an overall plan of what you want to achieve.

Dammit! I have to buy a Black Coach?

In this case I did not know what my opponent was bringing before I made my list. But honestly I NEVER tailor a list to an opponent. I like dreadscythes and I always wished they could be battleline. So my list basically built itself.

 Yea harridans are definitely a high skill unit. The impact hits from the coach (or maybe even hexwraiths or Drowner) are ideal since it lets the harridans activate first with the buff already active.

Also I was using Discorporate in just about every situation I could. Its essentially our All out Defense.

Honestly i think our new wave of terror rules are really where the strength lies. It wasn't that uncommon for me to nail two 8+ charges and put a unit at -2 armor save and of course the Always Strike Last effect is super powerful. I got one of those as well.

Honestly I felt like I should have won the game TBH. But we were playing Tectonic Interference and I had consistently bad rolls on the Alpha objective (it was nearly always favorable to my opponent) and the Incarnate was a HUGE problem to deal with. 

I think with a bit more practice (and not relying on potato cam photos) I can probably compete with most armies.