Rumours on low Dominion sales - discussion

[yukishiro1]

It's really good for the game that AOS doesn't have one clearly favored faction - despite GW's efforts over the years to position SCE there, it's never worked. But one knock-on effect of that is that they don't have a nailed-on starter set that's going to instantly appeal to 50% or more of the playerbase, the way anything with space marines in it does. Add on that the other faction is another new army and it isn't clear how they're going to mesh in with anything else, and the natural customer for this set is only (1) stormcast players, and (2) people who are inclined to just buy whatever AOS starter set GW puts out. Both these groups are vastly smaller than their respective 40k contingents, and I think we're seeing that they're also a smaller group of people than GW hoped. 

[SilentSentinel]

Another factor that possibly helped Indomitus was the leaked image with the majority of the new/redone Necron models, although it probably still would've sold extremely well even if the leak didn't happen.

I do feel like GW could've done some more solid teasing for the other Stormcast and Kruleboyz models that are coming with their tomes, all we've gotten is name drops for the Sludgeraker, Mouth of Mork and the description of a flying swamp creature. It probably would've helped build the hype a bit more as well.

Hopefully we'll get a solid reveal next weekend.   

[Beer & Pretzels Gamer]

I’m much less familiar with 40k (particularly list building, still working through that) but think the inclusion of a named character and, yes, non-battleline hobgrots, a mistake as it disincentivized buying two sets.  You can’t play two Yndrastras and even those excited by Kruelboyz (count myself in that corner) seem to have little interest in hobgrots.  (Their primary point of interest seems to be hints that Chaos Dwarfs are coming…)  So add box composition to lack of a universal faction and a far tougher sales path than Indomitus.

The real issue though (since they will eventually sell all these Dominion boxes) besides inventory costs is the opportunity cost of what sales they missed out on by not using the factory run time on other products?

[yukishiro1]

Yeah, that's a good point too. The box composition is...not great. Points are really disparate for the two factions, and the Kruleboyz aren't legal to play as an actual army at 1,000 points either due to having too many characters and not enough battle line, which is a real head-scratcher. Like the ultimate example of GW design: make models first, come up with rules later, whether or not it makes your new model set actually playable or not. 

Edited June 27, 2021 by yukishiro1

[Beer & Pretzels Gamer]

2 minutes ago, yukishiro1 said:

Yeah, that's a good point too. The box composition is...not great. Points are really disparate for the two factions, and the Kruleboyz aren't legal to play as an actual army at 1,000 points either due to having too many characters and not enough battle line, which is a real head-scratcher. 

This gets to a broad issue where I’m disappointed 3.0 seems to be still starting off on the same wrong foot that 2.0 regularly stumbled in which is a lack of an overarching design philosophy.  On several threads I’ve defended GW against accusations of certain negative business practices but a lot of it comes down to 20+ years of business analysis that says never assign to maliciousness what can better be assigned to normal corporate bureaucracy over process.  40k isn’t without faults but there really does seem to be an overarching design philosophy driving not just the products but their marketing and packaging (see Combat Patrols in 9e).  AoS really seems to lack in this area.

[Fred1245]

3 hours ago, Chikout said:

I'll just copy this over from the other thread 

 think there are several factors. 

1- AoS has had a banging six months. I don't know about anyone else but I've already spent more this year than I usually do in whole year. People might not have any money left. 

2- they made a lot. Rumours are that they made as many copies as Indomitus, which is kind of crazy as AoS is growing in popularity but is still much less popular than 40k

3- The Kruleboyz marketing. It's a subfaction which is not going to get its own battletome. Nobody knows how large the faction is going to be or even what a typical 2000 point army will look like. 

4- The Kruleboyz models. This is a bit of a Marmite faction which is great for the health of the game but not great for a starter. The Hobgrotz in particular have been a bit divisive and they make up a third of the models in the game. 

5- the Stormcast models. They have been well received but they aren't AoS's number one faction which again is good for the health of the game but not good if you want to seek a starter box. 

6- people aren't ready for a new edition. We all spent a year not playing games. It might have been wise to wait a year. 

7- controversial rules changes. Coherency and unleash hell have caused a stir and not in a good way. 

8- Now that the launch day scramble has passed, there is really no rush. They made 33,000 coins. As long as those are still there I don't feel the box well sell out. I might have caved and bought it without that safety net. Ironically the bonus incentive might have made the game sell slower. 

Edited 4 minutes ago by Chikout

That first point is interesting to me because it's from such a wildly different perspective than my own.

From my POV the last year of AoS has been one of the worst, even without Covid.

The DoT-KO-Lumineth-Seraphon codex block was the worst powercreep AoS has ever seen.

I haven't purchased anything AoS related in more than a year except Morgwaeth, which I immediately regretted when they butchered her points. I haven't even bothered to fully pirate the DoK battletome rather than just memorizing the rules from places you can get them for free.

I used to buy SCE and DoK models like they were part of my electrical bill but I hated the last DoK book and all of the boxset SCE except Yndrasta are terrible. They look exactly the same as every other stormcast foot soldier and it's SO BORING. My thought right now is that I'd rather buy Two Yndrastas off of ebay than spend the same money for 1 Yndrasta and the other stuff in the box.

[yukishiro1]

What would you do with two Yndrastas? 

[Beer & Pretzels Gamer]

6 minutes ago, yukishiro1 said:

What would you do with two Yndrastas? 

eBay the obvious answer but again, since SCE are NOT Space Marines the secondary market going to be weak as most SCE players who want her would have already gotten her.

So when I was considering two I was looking into kitbashing an Azyros or Venator…

EDIT: hobgrots proved the killer in that sense.  But without new tome also tough to determine if Yndrasta plus Azyros or Venator a good combo.

Edited June 27, 2021 by Beer & Pretzels Gamer

[Chikout]

15 minutes ago, Fred1245 said:

That first point is interesting to me because it's from such a wildly different perspective than my own.

From my POV the last year of AoS has been one of the worst, even without Covid.

The DoT-KO-Lumineth-Seraphon codex block was the worst powercreep AoS has ever seen.

 

I meant more from a sales perspective since that's what might impact Dominion. 

We've had three broken realms books and four battletomes. We've had 3 major ranges of minis which have all been popular for various reasons. We've had several awesome Underworlds warbands, 12 discount boxes, and a bunch of individual models, some which are pretty expensive. We've also had Cursed City which ran into problems precisely because so many people bought it. I was lucky enough to get hold a copy and I've still only painted about half the minis. If I'd missed out, I would have been much more likely to pick up Dominion. 

Edited June 27, 2021 by Chikout

[Fred1245]

3 minutes ago, Beer & Pretzels Gamer said:

eBay the obvious answer but again, since SCE are NOT Space Marines the secondary market going to be weak as most SCE players who want her would have already gotten her.

So when I was considering two I was looking into kitbashing an Azyros or Venator…

I want two so that I can paint one and someone who doesn't suck at painting can paint the other one.

Display version vs Play version. 

[Christopher Rowe]

5 minutes ago, Chikout said:

I meant more from a sales perspective since that's what might impact Dominion. 

We've had three broken realms books and four battletomes. We've had 3 major ranges of minis which have all been popular for various reasons. We've had several awesome Underworlds warbands, 12 discount boxes, and a bunch of individual models, some which are pretty expensive. We've also had Cursed City which ran into problems precisely because so many people bought it. I was lucky enough to get hold a copy and I've still only painted about half the minis. If I'd missed out, I would have been much more likely to pick up Dominion. 

Four Broken Realms books now! Kraaaaagnooooosss! Rawr!

[Enoby]

It does seem to me, and maybe this just my limited experience from my social media circles and this forum, that there seems to be more negativity and less hype around AoS3 (and AoS om general). 

I couldn't pinpoint on where it started, though definitely before the new edition, but it feels like people are less excited about the new AoS edition compared to AoS 2. If I were to chalk it up to something, it's not that the models are disappointing but rather the rules. I'm not sure how it is for 40k so this could be totally off the mark, but it seems there's a lot of fretting about some AoS 3 rules and there was previously a lot of disappointment/confusion about some of the more recent books. 40k, on the other hand, has overpowered stuff coming out but most people seem to like their new books and rules (correct me if I'm wrong here though), whereas many people seem disappointed at apparent 'underpowered'/boring stuff coming out in recent AoS publications. 

Again, this could very well just be a personal experience that isn't reflective of the community as a whole (and I hope it is just me), but there does seem to be less excitement about the current rules, even the good ones. That's added on to the complaining about Slaanesh's battletome and the lesser complaints about Soulblight, and the dislike of some of Lumineth's wind rules (I personally don't mind them but people did not seem happy about the wind spirit), it just seems like the hype wasn't quite there as there was a lot of gripes in the community about the game that AoS 3 hasn't (and probably couldn't) address. 

It also may be that in AoS 2 everyone's army got something new and exciting (either the promise of a new battletome, summoning points, endless spells, scenery) whereas AoS 3 has come with a more mixed reaction (as we know, everyone (bar one) gets these new command abilities, but they're pretty cut and dry and difficult to get excited about on paper, even if they play really well). Personally, playing the AoS 3 rules they seem considerably better than AoS 2, but I'm less hyped because of the Slaanesh situation (they are better than initially thought, but it's difficult to get the hype back up once lost) and I have a feeling others may be in a similar situation (e.g. Fyreslayer players may benefit from new prayers, but that's overshadowed by battalion loss, and so the hype is less).

Hopefully this is just me, or maybe just this forum, but it does seem like there are more negative opinions around AoS 3 rules (not just the core book but the most recent battletomes and warscrolls - Kruelboyz maybe being the most recent example) than there were AoS 2, and I'm not sure if that would have had an affect on Dominion's sales. 

[Chikout]

1 minute ago, Christopher Rowe said:

Four Broken Realms books now! Kraaaaagnooooosss! Rawr!

Morathi came out last year. I was just talking about 2021. Compare this year to 2017 where we had 4 books in the whole year and no big boxed sets. 

[sandlemad]

I’d be reluctant to attribute much of Dominion’s reception to the disparity in forces/points values or viability as small forces as those are pretty much constants with GW starter boxes for 40k, AoS and WHFB. Soul War in particular was a small disaster when it came to correct NH unit sizes for matched play and that didn’t seem to stop people.

If anything Dominion might be slightly better than some on the basis that if you just drop Yndrasta, the two forces are roughly even.

[Christopher Rowe]

3 minutes ago, Chikout said:

Morathi came out last year. I was just talking about 2021. Compare this year to 2017 where we had 4 books in the whole year and no big boxed sets. 

Gotcha, sorry. I was confused by the post you were responding to, which mentioned "the last year" and Covid so I assumed they (and you) meant since last summer. My bad.

[EccentricCircle]

I agree with what others have said. I don't think that something went wrong with Dominion, and that the sky is falling. Rather I think that they just happened to make enough boxes to meet the demand this time around. Its just that its been so long since we saw what a limited edition release without the added scarcity looks like, that it seems strange that its taking a few weeks for them to sell out.

GW clearly does well out of FOMO, but for all practical purposes its bad for business to make something which is so limited that your customers can't get it unless they happen to have a spare £125 to spend on a specific morning, with only a week's notice. I wish my hobby budget was that flexible, but really if I want to buy something I need at least a month to plan, and so whether I can get limited editions or not depends massively on where the release falls relative to pay day. 

All I can really speak to is why I didn't buy Dominion. So...

Would I have liked to have gotten a copy? Yes, on balance. I like Yndrasta a lot, even though stormcast aren't really my thing, but I have enough from 2e boxed sets that I could have made good use of the stormcast half if I ever got around to painting them. I do like the orcs, although they are not spectacular, and I suspect would be fiddly to paint. I want to read the lore in the new book and see where things are going.

But...

I've only just bought Cursed City, which has eaten up most of my hobby budget for the next month or so. I'm currently saving up to get Kroak, and he definitely takes priority over dominion.

While I like the new orcs, I have 200 half painted goblins who would much rather that I finished painting them than that I bought them new friends. I've got enough part painted models to keep me busy for a while, so really don't need to get another massive box of models right now.

While I'm keen to see where the lore goes, I've come to the conclusion over the last few weeks of new edition coverage that I just don't care about the new edition. I've not played for over a year, and barely played in the year before that. If I get a game in in the coming months its most likely to be Warcry. If I am called upon to play a mass battle game, I don't game with anyone who cares enough about AoS that they will insist on playing 3e, so basically I'm good with 2e for the forseeable future.

If, in a few months time, I see Dominion floating around at my FLGS, and I have nothing better to spend my hobby budget on then I might pick it up. I'm not convinced it will stick around that long though, and I'm pretty much fine with that.

 

[Baron Klatz]

Haha, this is looking more like Opinions rather than Rumors why it didn't sell out.

But yeah, they made too much with 40k amounts, dropped 3.0 at least a year too early, free rules make it less desirable beyond collectors & lore buffs and both the forces are add-on armies to existing ones. Stormcast are a very popular faction and Warclans have their hardcore fans but patch armies don't pull people in like big shiny releases like a new Chamber and Orruks battletome would've(could you imagine a Gordrakk's tome with Endless Spells, new Ironjawz monsters and even the Skybasha clans bringing in scrap airships to capitalize on the earlier Aether wars?)

Which is the thing. It feels like a patch release rather than a full-blown big step release like the last two. Patch armies, patched in rules and patched up new lore bits.

Mind, nothing here is a bad thing, it's still selling well. The important part is it is bringing in new fans* and doing a service to veterans as everyone has gotten their copy with no shortages in sight. As the year progresses and the new battletomes drop it'll smooth things out and get the game rolling. (Hopefully 4th edition will stay 4-5 years away this time though)

Edit:*some nice reports out there of hobby stores seeing lines of people waiting to buy their box when they never had lines before.

Edited June 27, 2021 by Baron Klatz

[Bayul]

I don't know if they are huge factors but the chunky hardcover rule book, the lack of terrain and a gaming board might affect the appeal of the box in a negative way. Warhammer veterans can already assume that Dominion will be followed by a big starter box, which might include new terrain, said gaming board(s) and a handy softcover manual with all necessary rules. It's undisputable that the value of the models is lower, but so is the monetary investment and the additional content of the box can actually be used for existing armies.

[yukishiro1]

17 minutes ago, sandlemad said:

I’d be reluctant to attribute much of Dominion’s reception to the disparity in forces/points values or viability as small forces as those are pretty much constants with GW starter boxes for 40k, AoS and WHFB. Soul War in particular was a small disaster when it came to correct NH unit sizes for matched play and that didn’t seem to stop people.

If anything Dominion might be slightly better than some on the basis that if you just drop Yndrasta, the two forces are roughly even.

Historically, yes. But Indomitus had balanced points values and legal 1000 point armies (ok, the space marines were 5 points over due to the plasma pistol and the necrons 5 points under, but whatever). 

I agree it probably doesn't make a huge difference, but it doesn't help that they've gone back to having boxes that don't even give you legal armies at the points values they're at. 

I think another big aspect is that crusade was a hugely hyped thing for 9th edition 40k. In practice, I don't know that that many people have actually stuck with it, but it was a major hype factor that got people buying the set - both to get the rules and because it made getting a new 1000 point army a lot more attractive. Meanwhile, Path to Glory has gotten basically zero hype or attention whatsoever as far as I can see. I mean, you can't even use Yndrasta in Path of Glory. Not a great plan to have the centerpiece model for your new edition not usable in your new game mode. 

Edited June 27, 2021 by yukishiro1

[Fred1245]

11 minutes ago, Enoby said:

It does seem to me, and maybe this just my limited experience from my social media circles and this forum, that there seems to be more negativity and less hype around AoS3 (and AoS om general). 

I couldn't pinpoint on where it started, though definitely before the new edition, but it feels like people are less excited about the new AoS edition compared to AoS 2. If I were to chalk it up to something, it's not that the models are disappointing but rather the rules. I'm not sure how it is for 40k so this could be totally off the mark, but it seems there's a lot of fretting about some AoS 3 rules and there was previously a lot of disappointment/confusion about some of the more recent books. 40k, on the other hand, has overpowered stuff coming out but most people seem to like their new books and rules (correct me if I'm wrong here though), whereas many people seem disappointed at apparent 'underpowered'/boring stuff coming out in recent AoS publications. 

Again, this could very well just be a personal experience that isn't reflective of the community as a whole (and I hope it is just me), but there does seem to be less excitement about the current rules, even the good ones. That's added on to the complaining about Slaanesh's battletome and the lesser complaints about Soulblight, and the dislike of some of Lumineth's wind rules (I personally don't mind them but people did not seem happy about the wind spirit), it just seems like the hype wasn't quite there as there was a lot of gripes in the community about the game that AoS 3 hasn't (and probably couldn't) address. 

It also may be that in AoS 2 everyone's army got something new and exciting (either the promise of a new battletome, summoning points, endless spells, scenery) whereas AoS 3 has come with a more mixed reaction (as we know, everyone (bar one) gets these new command abilities, but they're pretty cut and dry and difficult to get excited about on paper, even if they play really well). Personally, playing the AoS 3 rules they seem considerably better than AoS 2, but I'm less hyped because of the Slaanesh situation (they are better than initially thought, but it's difficult to get the hype back up once lost) and I have a feeling others may be in a similar situation (e.g. Fyreslayer players may benefit from new prayers, but that's overshadowed by battalion loss, and so the hype is less).

Hopefully this is just me, or maybe just this forum, but it does seem like there are more negative opinions around AoS 3 rules (not just the core book but the most recent battletomes and warscrolls - Kruelboyz maybe being the most recent example) than there were AoS 2, and I'm not sure if that would have had an affect on Dominion's sales. 

One of the big differences for me has been Army Book Design.

I play DoK and Sisters of Battle in 40k. Both have gotten books very recently, both were absurdly strong before the new books, both were significantly reigned in by the new books.

The difference between them is still very starkly in Sister's favor though.

The absolute top end of what Sisters were capable of were nerfed(potentially overnerfed) but were given consolation buffs that left even the hardest hit units still meaningfully powerful(Retributors gaining ignores cover and having run and shoot with no penalty in Argent Shroud clawed back ground from the other nerfs). Several other mechanics and improvements were also added that never quite reached the ceiling they had previously, but offered interesting new ways to play the army that were still very effective. If it hadn't been for a few facepalm units/rules(-1 to wound against S3 attacks? Cool...no one cares) and the two books before it being absolutely busted, it would have been an absolutely solid book.

DoK was just a flat nerf. Everything plays exactly the same as it did post BR:Morathi, the numbers just got smaller. What gains were made(point drops on bloodwracks, mindrazor buff, Avatar buff, endless spells) didn't really mean anything compared to what was lost and certainly didn't help open up more competitive playstyles beyond 'Morathi+BloodStalkers'.

TLDR: 40k Codex design has been so much better than Sigmar's lately that even their missteps are way better.

[Saturmorn Carvilli]

12 minutes ago, Enoby said:

It does seem to me, and maybe this just my limited experience from my social media circles and this forum, that there seems to be more negativity and less hype around AoS3 (and AoS om general). 

I couldn't pinpoint on where it started, though definitely before the new edition, but it feels like people are less excited about the new AoS edition compared to AoS 2. If I were to chalk it up to something, it's not that the models are disappointing but rather the rules. I'm not sure how it is for 40k so this could be totally off the mark, but it seems there's a lot of fretting about some AoS 3 rules and there was previously a lot of disappointment/confusion about some of the more recent books. 40k, on the other hand, has overpowered stuff coming out but most people seem to like their new books and rules (correct me if I'm wrong here though), whereas many people seem disappointed at apparent 'underpowered'/boring stuff coming out in recent AoS publications. 

I think you are correct with that.

I think some reasons are that AoS unlike 40k had pretty workable core rules at the end of AoS 2nd ed. Warhammer 40k 8th ed was kinda mess at the end. I personally think updating all the codices would have only got the game so far.  So a new edition was welcome.  Particularly as 40k had seen a jump in popularity and a new edition is usually a good place to jump into the game as the meta is more or less reset to zero so new players don't feel like they are playing catch up.

I also think that salad days of 40k happened before the pandemic close downs.  Where AoS was experiencing re-newed vigor as the pandemic hit.  Maybe that's my personal perception as that was happened to me as I had grown mostly bored with 40k and hadn't yet got that many games of AoS in.  In some ways, I do feel cheated out of getting to experience more of AoS 2nd edition.

At this point right now, I like AoS 2nd more than 3rd.  That certainly can change after I actually play the new rules, but to look at the new rules on paper has me thinking the game is moving away from what I liked about.  I don't think AoS 3rd is worst, just not the direction I wanted to go.  I am hoping that I come to enjoy, or at very least, tolerate the new rules as I do enjoy the models, setting and local players of AoS a bit more than 40k now.

[edmc78]

5 hours ago, cofaxest said:

1) player base is smaller than in 40k
2) much better choice of unique factions than in 40k
3) SCE are not as popular in AoS as Space marines in 40k
4) Core rules are free
If you combine this you will get lower sales.

Book was released alongside the box set, stopped scalpers. 

[Laststand]

2 hours ago, Kitsumy said:

I would have bought the box if it would have, saurus, any kind of elf or even vsmpires, but more stormcast and ugly ass orcs? No thx, they could have been ironjaws at least.

 

Rules help too , i wont play a edittion where i cant use my units ( any 6+ models in minimun size with 32+ base and 1" weapon are totally useless, since only half will fight, despite people arguing u could spend 1 hour meassuring every milimeter and if rival is in perfect line u could even get 7 or 8 to fight!). And 2 absurds ca to ranged with an op endless to make melees more useless in a rangedhammer....So i will wait 1 year to see if other 2 faqs and other ghb fix that madness.

What army (s) do you play? 

[Blueraven84]

1 hour ago, yukishiro1 said:

. I mean, you can't even use Yndrasta in Path of Glory.

How come?

[yukishiro1]

No unique characters. Makes some sense when you think about it, but....it really exposes one of the big tensions with the whole Path of Glory concept, actually. Don't get me wrong, I don't like unique characters myself - but they are a massive part of AOS, much bigger than in 40k. GW has been pushing these big unique god-tier models for every faction - every single new release is full of them - and then you can't even use them in the new game mode.