Cities of Sigmar in AoS 3

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

So, what are everyone's hopes and dreams for the FAQ?

Realistically, I mostly expect some points rejiggering. A bunch of stuff goes down, Frost Phoenix goes up. Maybe we get a little rules buff somehow. Something that makes the realms of origin of the different cities relevant again?

Hopes and dreams mode: Steam Tanks get a 2+ save like Leman Russes did in the 40k slate and can be treated as a unit for purposes of command abilities.

[Jaskier]

I really hope they make Sisters of the Watch a bit cheaper (bring them in line with Irondrakes) to offset the inevitable Fulminator increase...the Stardrake getting cheaper is my other hope for my tournament list to stay under 2000 points 😅

[NauticalSoup]

Honest I don't think CoS as a faction is on their radar. The overperforming units in the new codexes will get the lion's share of the attention, as always happens, with scattershot adjustments to other stuff. I'm kinda resigned to the state of CoS as-is so my main hope is stuff I want to borrow from Stormcast goes down, specifically big dragons.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

1 hour ago, NauticalSoup said:

Honest I don't think CoS as a faction is on their radar. The overperforming units in the new codexes will get the lion's share of the attention, as always happens, with scattershot adjustments to other stuff. I'm kinda resigned to the state of CoS as-is so my main hope is stuff I want to borrow from Stormcast goes down, specifically big dragons.

I also don't think CoS will be a huge point of focus, but I do expect the usual points shuffle for all armies. And on that front I could see a bunch of CoS stuff move down. Although CoS are in a weird position: Because of their incredibly deep pool of units and all their coallition options, they are basically guaranteed to have some kind of viable list at all times, even though probably well over half of their unit and allegiance options are pretty bad at any given time.

[NauticalSoup]

It's both deep and shallow at the same time. We have a few categories of units that are all fairly similar and compete directly with different keywords for support pieces. Long list of units, but because so many of them are so similarly and in the same points range while also all being heavily restricted on support, you may end up with very few practical options. It's a similar problem to what SCE has where you have 10 largely interchangeable warscrolls that are all similarly pointed so if the baseline just isn't good you sweep the whole range into the dumpster at once.

[readercolin]

If they decide to do something significant with the cities:

First off, units that don't need adjustment, or only need a small tweak:

Frostheart Phoenix w/ annointed.  Yes, it is tanky and fast... that is about all you can say about it though, because you are spending 315 points for a monster that can average less than 9 wounds before saves.  I would argue that it could use a bit of a points drop, but I will say it definitely doesn't need a points increase.

Celestial Hurricanum (with and without battlemage).  There is a reason it goes in almost every list, and yet is useless outside of the cities.  Fine where it is.

Annointed, assassin, battlemage, Black Ark Fleetmaster, Cogsmith, Freeguild General, Nomad Prince, Runelord, Sorceress, and warden king.  All of these have at least some use (except maybe the cogsmith) in unlocking battleline or just being a support character.  Aside from the battlemage, sorceress, and maybe the runelord, none of these are something that I would stick in my list outside of unlocking battleline, or sub-faction synergies, but at the same time GW seems to like pricing these support hero's around 100 points, so I can't really see any significant changes here.

Darkshards, Irondrakes, Longbeards, Phoenix Guard, and sisters of the watch are all in fairly good places, though I could see a points drop for Sisters of the Watch.  In less good spaces, but might only get a 5-10 points tweak, there are the Black Ark Corsairs, Black Guard, Bleakswords, Dreadspears, Dark Riders, Demigryph Knights, Eternal Guard, Flagellants, Freeguild Crossbowmen, Freeguild Greatswords, Hammerers, Ironbreakers, Scourgerunner Chariots, Shadow Warriors, and Sisters of the Thorn.

Next up, units that need a more significant points adjustment:

Freeguild General on Griffon is overpriced for what it does and deserves to drop 25+ points. 

The Luminark is a little overpriced for what it does, and needs to drop some points so someone might actually consider taking it over the hurricanum.  Note that this applies to both the Luminark w/ battlemage, and the luminark without.

Frostheart Phoenix without rider.  Take the phoenix, drop a pittance of damage, and drop the 4+ ward.  At 220 points, not worth it, and to have it EVER see use without a rider, it needs to drop to more like 170-180 points.  Relevant here - this model can expect an average of 7 damage before saves when it is at its top bracket, and without the hero riding it, it loses much of its utility.

Finally, units that need warscroll adjustments, not just points:

Battlemage on Griffon.  This thing is 275 points for a single cast wizard, on a 13 wound model with a 5+ save, AND only 6 bravery.  I have never seen one of these things on the table, even in meme lists.  This model either needs to drop ~100 points off of it, or it needs to get a 2nd spell cast, or it needs SOMETHING to make it remotely survivable.

Dreadlord on Black Dragon.  This thing is absurdly swingy.  The fact that its claws and jaws hit on a 4+, and the best we can do to buff that is bring it to a 3+ is pretty terrible.  The lack of rend on the sword is also pretty poor.  However, then we get to the jaws.  3 attacks on a 4+ is already incrediably swingy (though I have now successfully bitten something with my dragons enough that I need two hands to count instead of just one... even after having played 1+ dragon in 30+ games of 3.0, and 3+ dragons in ~10 games of 3.0), but the fact that if you get through all that swingyness to do d6 damage, and inevitably roll a 1 (unless your target has a single wound left - then you'll roll the 6) just makes fielding these guys frustrating beyond belief.  Claws and Jaws need to be updated to a 3+ to hit, and the jaw attacks need to be changed to 3+d3 damage, not d6.  Do that and these guys might be worth their 290 points.

Sorceress on Black Dragon.  This is a combination of the battlemage on griffon and the dreadlord on dragon.  A 5+ save for these points is not worth it for a single cast wizard, though at least this one has a spell that might be worth bringing in bladestorm.  Combine that with the fact that the mount is swingy as all get out, and you have a recipie for an overpriced model.  Just like the battlemage on griffon, this needs to drop a lot of points, get a 2nd spell, or get something to make it survivable... but it also needs to make the dragon less swingy, just like the dreadlord.

Steam tank w/ or without commander.  Look at what I wrote about swingyness on the dragons.  Now apply that to the guns, AND the movement.  WHY!?!  Honestly, I would actually consider running steam tanks as they are if they had static movement, even it it changed as the model bracketed.  But realistically, they need to change their main gun shot to be d3+3, or just something like 4 damage rather than d6, and the steam guns could realistically use some rend as well (also, more range).  Then, if something gets into melee, it needs a consistent number of attacks there as well, because d6 just isn't cutting it.  Finally, a 4+ to hit is no longer good enough - you used to be able to get this back to a 2+ between a hurricanum and a commander, but now that stacking is gone they need either more shots, or to go to a 3+ to hit.

Drakespawn Chariots.  Why?  Why are these units even here?  They do nothing at range, have pitiful melee damage, poor movement for a chariot, and all they really have going for them is a 2+ chance at d3 mortals when they charge.  I don't know what these guys need, but they need something, especially as there is no way on gods green earth you are going to reinforce these guys now.

Drakespawn Knights.  No.  Just no.  I have played these guys at their initial 170 points (lol).  I have played them at their current 125 points.  Realistically, with a 10" move and a 3+ save, they can't drop much more points wise, as they would then be too good as a wall to just throw in front of people.  But a lot of these guy's failings would be fixed if you just gave the riders 2 attacks, which might make them worth bringing to get some charges off.  Don't get me wrong - they would still suck, as their stats are pretty terrible.  But at least with 2 attacks we could talk about them possibly being worth it at 125ish points, and not complaining about having to drop them to 95 points and still barely being worth it.  Also, some people really want to be able to run a cavalry heavy army, and these guys seem great at that until you read their warscrolls.

Freeguild Guard.  These guys were written with hordes in mind, getting stacking bonuses to hit for the number of models in the unit, and potentially being able to benefit from the freeguild general's buff as well.  With the changes to hordes and stacking in 3.0, this makes their warscroll seem particularly out of date, and it should get re-written to reflect the current reality.  Realistically, I would be fine with them at 85 points with just cutting all the bonuses from them and cleaning up the warscroll some, but I would like it if they got something to make them slightly unique afterwards.

Freeguild Handgunners.  Just like the freeguild guard, these guys were written with stacking bonuses in mind, but they were also written with stand and shoot.  Now that stand and shoot has been ruled as an "unleash hell" (and still counts as using unleash hell, so you can't do it across multiple units), and there is no longer ways that you can stack their buffs down to a 2+/2+, they need some attention.  Realistically, if we got rid of their attack bonuses and stand and shoot rules, and just gave them base 3+/3+ guns, they would probably still be worth 105 points (though I would appreciate keeping the "crack shot" for the unit leader's long rifle), but again cleaning up the warscroll would be nice for them.

Freeguild Outriders.  5+ base to hit is terrible, especially is this was a unit that previously relied on stacking buffing.  Change them to a 4+ to hit to account for the fact that you cant buff stack them to the moon anymore, and they would probably be fine at their current points.  Without doing that though, it is hard to say when they would ever get used, as they are just too un-reliable.

Freeguild Pistoliers.  Pistoliers were basically only used in Tempest Eye battalion, which allowed them to retreat and still charge.  Without that, it is hard to say that they are ever useful, especially with such short range.  Realistically, these guys either need retreat+shoot and charge on their warscroll, some other way to access that, or a significant warscroll re-write to make them worth bringing.

Gyrobombers.  The only real reason to bring gyrobombers was for the ability to fly over and drop bombs.  However, a 12" move isn't enough to make that reliable, and the fact that they can't drop bombs after retreating, or when running makes them really, really hard to use.  They need a warscroll re-write to adjust bomb dropping timing, either make it whenever they move in the movement phase, or at the start of the combat phase they can drop them on a unit within 3".

Gyrocopters.  Just like the gyrobombers, these guys need an adjustment to when they can drop bombs, though with theirs being once per game it is less vital to the usage of the unit.  However, the reason these guys were brought was to be used as horde killers... and you may have noticed a distinct lack of hordes right now.  Also, making them not able to be reinforced to 3 models in the unit makes them noticeably harder to use as a horde-clearing unit now.  But at the same time, it is really, really hard to consider dropping even more points off of these guys (also, why are they $50 a model? seriously?).  These guys need some sort of warscroll re-write to make them relevant... also, they need to be both Cities and KO units, because I want to bring some little gyrocopters alongside my bigger boats.

Wild Riders.  So, we want a hard charging unit that can move fast and smash.  Wild riders are perfect for that, right?  I mean, maybe... but these guys don't reinforce well, and with a 3+/4+ profile, even when charging you can't rely on a squad of 5 of them to be able to smash a 10 wound unit, so they can't even reliably make it through a screen.  Reinforcements making it so you can't bring a significant chunk of them also means that you can't buff them up enough to make them hammers, and coherency changes making it so you can't get a whole reinforced unit into combat is also rough.  Add on a 5+ save, and they melt to any sort of counter attack, and it is a struggle to figure out where they would ever get used.  These guys need a new warscroll, but I'm not really sure what they need to make them work on it.

Wildwood Rangers.  Woo hoo - monster slayers in the edition of monsters, just what we need, right?  Except a squad of 10 of these guys will still only do ~9 damage to a 3+ save (monster), and are pretty terrible vs anything else.  Stack on a 5+ save, so they die to a stiff breeze and it is no surprise that these guys don't see play.  Realistically, these guys need more rend, and a better save - giving them rend-2 and a 4+ save would make me actually consider using these guys, but as it is their real competition is Irondrakes... which just do their job with better projection and better damage.

Flamespyre Phoenix.  Oh dear, I am SOOOO disappointed by this unit, whether it has a rider or not.  This model can expect to do less than 6 damage in melee without buffs.  And that is before saves.  The ONLY thing that made it worth considering before was its wake of fire (which I have already spoken to earlier in this thread), which since it happens on a normal move, basically doesn't exist.  If he got re-written to use wake of fire at the end of the charge phase, or the start of combat, or just move/run/retreat, he might be worth bringing back out.  He also needs to lose his 4+ to hit on the bird (why!?!).  But as it is, I'm not sure I would bring one with an annointed on it for even as little as 200 points, and without an annointed his paltry 4 damage before saves in melee is... well... you might have to pay me to put it in my list, even if it was as low as 120 points, because realistically he is going to give away more points than he is going to gain me in a game.

Kharibdyss and war hydra.  I'm bundling these two together, because they are basically the same model.  But you are spending 170ish points for a monster that has some sort of regeneration, mediocre movement, and poor damage output.  Just... why?  I mean, don't get me wrong - they are better than a flamespyre phoenix (with or without the rider...), but that isn't exactly a high bar to surpass.  But these guys are realistically going to lose you more points when they die than they will gain you in a match, and even if they were to drop to 100 points they wouldn't be worth bringing due to that.  I don't know what they need, but a new warscroll is probably the best place to start, because there isn't exactly anything worth saving here.

Hellblaster Volley Gun.  The volley gun is a unit that was designed with hit stacking in mind.  You get +1 to hit for shooting something within 12", +1 to hit from a hurricanum, +1 to hit from a lord-ordinator, +1 to hit from the ironweld arsenal prayer, and now you max at +1 to hit.  Even the 3d6 roll though is an average of less than 5 damage (with +1 to hit), but it is extremely swingy due to the shots being d6 rolls - and doubles means you shoot 0 times too.  Overall, this unit needs a warscroll re-write to make it worth bringing without hit stacking being expected, and to make it less random (and make it so it will never just do nothing and fail you completely).

Helstorm Rocket Battery.  Another case of being designed with hit stacking in mind.  A 5+ to hit wasn't terrible when you get +1 to sending all the shots at 1 target, re-roll 1's for being near an engineer, and +1 from hurricanum, +1 from lord-ordinator, and +1 from the ironweld arsenal prayer, meaning that minimal investment is needed to put multiple on a 3+, and it wasn't impossible to get them to a 2+ either.  As it is now, the average damage from one of these is 2, while before you could expect an average of just short of 4 damage.  Personally, I like the idea of making this a rocket spewer, keep its 5+ to hit, but give it like 6-10 shots, but anyway you do it this unit needs a warscroll re-write, because I wouldn't be willing to spend even as little as 50 points on this thing in its current form.

[Doko]

On 12/3/2021 at 2:57 PM, NauticalSoup said:

Honest I don't think CoS as a faction is on their radar. The overperforming units in the new codexes will get the lion's share of the attention, as always happens, with scattershot adjustments to other stuff. I'm kinda resigned to the state of CoS as-is so my main hope is stuff I want to borrow from Stormcast goes down, specifically big dragons.

Yes,its imposible nothing in cos goes up in points when there are as 10 armys in top of us.

If we get some change must be buffs or reduction in points to ours behemots(all out of phoenyx are useless) and many other units as almost every dark elf unit or hammerers(i play soulbligths too and for less points than hammerers the grave guard with two hands habe almost double damage output lol)

And also i hope big dragons get a huuuuge decrease in points(100+) or any ward save because rigth now they are even more overcosted than stardrakes

[Mandzak-Miniatures]

I’d just like selected heroes to unlock battle line, not general. Also there is zero reason why a SCE general showing up wouldn’t be in command over measly “common folk”.

outside of that across the board, mostly mounted units, should also include a hero/general option. There’s zero reason a new warscroll could be made to make model in a sisters of the thorn a hero etc.  this goes for all armies 

[Thugmullet]

I just want Alleriale to get a 5+ ward save. If they just did that and only that I'd still be happy.

[zilberfrid]

50 minutes ago, Thugmullet said:

I just want Alleriale to get a 5+ ward save. If they just did that and only that I'd still be happy.

With mortal wound spam, I'd say a good option would be for all dwarves to get 5+ mortal wound save.

But an Alarielle fix isn't going to do much for most Cities players.

Giving something back for lost to hit stacking is neccessary, and desuckifying of Cities' monsters will finally see them used.

[Lord Krungharr]

I think for Gyrobombers if they just changed it to 'at the end of the movement phase' instead 'after a normal move'.  Then they could drop the bombs even if they 'ran'.  Or make them move 16" like the Gyrocopter.  One way to mitigate their current limits though is moving in a non-straight line.  Zig zag over like one enemy model of a horde.  Still have to have decent starting position though.

Maybe the Duardin will all get some newly crafted armor or runic wards in their next incarnation.  Grungni must have something in his shop for that?!

[Lightbox]

My hopes and dreams are for ironweld arsenal superiority!

I'd love a warscroll update for the steam tank but most importantly the Helstorm Rocket Battery, but as that's less likely I'll settle for cheaper artillery so I feel better about taking it and missing all my shots

I'd like wild riders to be 3+ to wound on the charge as well, I think points wise they're pretty fine though.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

49 minutes ago, Lightbox said:

My hopes and dreams are for ironweld arsenal superiority!

I'd love a warscroll update for the steam tank but most importantly the Helstorm Rocket Battery, but as that's less likely I'll settle for cheaper artillery so I feel better about taking it and missing all my shots

I'd like wild riders to be 3+ to wound on the charge as well, I think points wise they're pretty fine though.

The recent Nurgle update actually gives me hope for the Steam Tank and other Ironweld stuff. They threw out so much of the old jank in that book, like consolidating all the weapon profiles and so on, and made a lot of fan-favourite models really worth it. I think there is a good chance that the next Steam Tank warscroll is a little more intimidating and not quite so random.

[Lightbox]

1 minute ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

The recent Nurgle update actually gives me hope for the Steam Tank and other Ironweld stuff. They threw out so much of the old jank in that book, like consolidating all the weapon profiles and so on, and made a lot of fan-favourite models really worth it. I think there is a good chance that the next Steam Tank warscroll is a little more intimidating and not quite so random.

I pray that one day a full steam tank list will be a legitimate option and not just a giggle list.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

3 minutes ago, Lightbox said:

I pray that one day a full steam tank list will be a legitimate option and not just a giggle list.

In my hopes and dreams, the next update for the old Empire stuff will kind of just make them into the Imperial Guard, but from 17th century Germany. I would love the option to bring steam anti-air, self-driving steam artillery and steam troop transporters. Maybe even a heavy Steam Tank that would act like the Ironclad to the regular Steam Tank's Frigate. Realistically, all those units could be, like, two or three kits.

[Lightbox]

18 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

In my hopes and dreams, the next update for the old Empire stuff will kind of just make them into the Imperial Guard, but from 17th century Germany. I would love the option to bring steam anti-air, self-driving steam artillery and steam troop transporters. Maybe even a heavy Steam Tank that would act like the Ironclad to the regular Steam Tank's Frigate. Realistically, all those units could be, like, two or three kits.

Tbh if we're getting into steam shenanigans then I'd love to see some cool melee options, I feel imperial guard route would be too shooty gunline and I currently like that cities can be a bit of both shooting and melee without just being one or the other, so having something like clockwork cavalry or warriors with galvanic arms that can electrify their sabers would make for interesting units that I feel would help fit the wackier themes of the mortal realms alongside the more grounded tanks and footsoldiers of the freeguild.

 

Maybe also do more with actual steam, like some sort of steampowered/clockwork hounds that run around and have little steam cloud shooting attacks like the gyrocoptor. But tbh any extra options for cities would be cool, their biggest strength (and draw) is how versatile they are in terms of unit choice, you can build so many different armies with them and I'd love them to keep that.

[Lord Krungharr]

The Steam Tank kit could easily be tweeked to include some melee optional build like the Forgeworld Skullcracker Engine for Legion of Azgorh.  A couple of those on the flanks of a gunner unit, with greatswords in front, just plain good sense!

[Zeblasky]

I have a lot of things to say, but right now, listen to this idea - Knight-Draconis in Hammerall with Saints Blade. You get 1 more rend on his main attack, if he's contesting any point (and he should), you also get 3 damage instead of 2, if he's in the enemy territory, he can fight twice in a combat phase and if he's near your general, he can even reroll 1 to wound. And of course you can pop all out attack to make both activations to hit on 2. All that rounds up to average 8 rend 4 damage 3 saves for your opponent. And all this without his shooting and mount attacks mind you, in 2 combat phases this should kill any armoured target in the game. In most cases, even 1 phase should be enough.

[Tonhel]

Question, I want to include a  dragon my army. I play in a relax group, so l could use the legend warscrolls. Now is there any reason why it would be better to take the Dragonlord instead of the Dreadlord on Black Dragon? The point difference is huge and I see no real difference?

[Jaskier]

10 minutes ago, Tonhel said:

Question, I want to include a  dragon my army. I play in a relax group, so l could use the legend warscrolls. Now is there any reason why it would be better to take the Dragonlord instead of the Dreadlord on Black Dragon? The point difference is huge and I see no real difference?

From what I can see, the Dragonlord has slightly better weapon profiles and a more generically good breath attack, and his buffing abilities are better but once per game and affect a different set of units. I'd just use the Dreadlord given the massive points difference, especially if you're not using any of the discontinued Dragon Princes/etc.

[readercolin]

3 hours ago, Tonhel said:

Question, I want to include a  dragon my army. I play in a relax group, so l could use the legend warscrolls. Now is there any reason why it would be better to take the Dragonlord instead of the Dreadlord on Black Dragon? The point difference is huge and I see no real difference?

A few things.

First, the dragonlord has a better breath weapon attack.  Like, even against hordes I would prefer the dragonlord breath attacks most of the time.

Second, the rider gets noticably better attacks.  4 attacks at 3/3/-1/D3 is a LOT better than 6 attacks at 3/4/-/1.  The lances are a bit more even, but always being 2 damage is a notable improvement over base 1 damage.

Third, the buffs.  The biggest thing for dragonlord is that you really want several of them in a deathstar.  They get a once per game +1 attack and once per game +1 to hit, both of which are a 10" bubble.  The +1 attacks portion will stack as well.  This means that a deathstar can land on someone and blend them fast - especially if you can get one of the dragons to fight first (living city or tempest eye can do that).

Lastly, keep in mind base sizes.  Dragonlord is on a 120, dreadlord on a 105.  This is mostly to annoy you as you consider swapping between them.

Overall, neither will be worth it's points.  But either can be a fun option.  I would probably run dreadlord because they are cheaper, but if you want to emphasize the power of the hero, the dragonlord does that better.

Edited January 8, 2022 by readercolin

[Tonhel]

Thank you for the info! Very helpful!

Looking at the warscroll of the Dragon Blades, it seems that they made a bit of a mess. I guess that Dragon lance and lance charge are the same thing and they forgot to remove one of the two. Also, I assume they have a 3+ save?

[TheGrimKnight]

7 hours ago, Tonhel said:

Thank you for the info! Very helpful!

Looking at the warscroll of the Dragon Blades, it seems that they made a bit of a mess. I guess that Dragon lance and lance charge are the same thing and they forgot to remove one of the two. Also, I assume they have a 3+ save?

it is a mess because it's still legends, it's odd they updated a few models that aren't in production anymore (not complaining) but sadly they kind of just copy and pasted without checking it afterwards. 

but to the save. It's still a 4+ with an add one to rolls ability. so that's not an automatic 3+. so it's the same as mystic shield. the restrictions with save "stacking" still will happen with this unit. 

I'm currently very tired so if this doesn't make much sense I apologize. 

[readercolin]

On 1/8/2022 at 11:17 AM, Tonhel said:

Thank you for the info! Very helpful!

Looking at the warscroll of the Dragon Blades, it seems that they made a bit of a mess. I guess that Dragon lance and lance charge are the same thing and they forgot to remove one of the two. Also, I assume they have a 3+ save?

Yes, I have no idea what error checking was going on when they were updating some of the old warscrolls, but they clearly missed it on the dragon blades.  Don't expect it to get FAQ'd either with them being in legends - they might do that when they switch things on over to AoS 4.0.

As for the saves, just like the dragonlord/dreadlord, they have a 4+ save but get +1 with a shield.  Yes, this means that effectively they have a 3+ save.  But, when save stacking, you can never get it down to a 2+ - it will always be a 3+ even if you throw +100 to their save at them.  I would like to say that this seems to be a deliberate decision by GW to do this... but they aren't consistent with this across other warscrolls, so I'm just going to chalk it up as something deliberate by one game designer that isn't shared across the whole team.

[Tonhel]

Another question about those legend units. The Swifthawk Chariots have Charioteers bow with a range of 2" and damage 2. What would be the correct profile for those bows?