Cities of Sigmar in AoS 3

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

Are you guys excited about the future of Cities in AoS 3? It looks like Cities will be one of the big winners of the new edition.

Here are a few things that I think are good for us.

• Generic battalions

Most Cities armies could not make use of battalions before, since each city only got one. Now, every city can get extra artefacts/extra command points/low drops easily if they want to.

• Unleash Hell

Cities has super solid mid-range shooting. With Unleash Hell your Irondrakes or Freeguild Handgunners will be very good at protecting the rest of your army from charges. Unlike most shooting units, they have the damage output to put big dents into your opponent's hammers.

• Lots of 25mm bases

25mm bases are the easiest to manage with the new coherency rules. A small bonus, but nice!

• Good selection of monsters and heroes

Not only do we get a huge range of choices for monsters and heroes natively, we also potentially get access to all the toys from Stormcast, KO, DoK, LRL and Sylvaneth!

 

[Doko]

Yes i have 4 armys and some got destroyed by the new changes.

fyreslayers lost the big units of hearthguard zerkers,cant attack twice and havent any good shooting to use the overwatch.

stormcast i think are fine as they are elites so i dont mind new caps in units.

soulbligths seems dont affect the new changes as they were done with this edition in mind but it seem the buff stacking cap is a nerf for many units and the clear winners are blood knigths.

 

citys got some bad points:

we have the WORSTS behemots of all aos(compare to idoneths turtle or seraphons monsters) so i wont use the new behemoths tricks if they dont buff the stats or points of our monsters.

new cohesion is a big nerf for my style of play using a big block of 30 ironbreakers screening all my army and now gonna be imposible.

But some good points also:

new cohesion  is a nerf for our screens but in combat due to have small bases is lesser nerf for us than for other armys.

the new overwatch seems pretty powerfull,even with a -1 hit,my 20 irondrakes with the hurricanum close gonna delete many units with this and for sure the enemy wont like it.

new crusade.......i love get new models or relaunch of old kits,but it seems all gonna be only humans and i hate the tematic of holy inquisition so i wont like this second wave if it dont have elfs or dwarfs and it is only humans.

also we dont know nothing about points,its posible ranged units gonna get increase in points doing them overcosted and umplayable.

 

all in all i am happy for the overwatch but the monsters changes and posible increases in points for ranged units gonna be worse

 

 

[Aloth_Corfiser]

I am overall happy and pretty excited, because I like the overall rules of 3rd Edition, especially the Core Battalions. 
Whatever the thematic flavor of "new City Humans" in AoS might be - I am ready for it! 😁 
If GW updates the Freeguild Soldiers and the Siege Weapons (new Great Cannon please) it would already be an absolute win for me.
@Doko About behemoths: Isn't the Freeguild General on Griffin pretty durable and punchy? But I never played with Behemoths so I know nothing. 😅

[Doko]

Not he isnt.

Cost 320 and do around 10 damage with save 3

Idoneth turtle for 360 points do 21 damage,have save 2 and more wounds and give two auras of +1 hit and +1 save.

Or seraphon trex cost 210 and do 14'4 damage with save 4

Our behemots need do as double damage to be balanced with every other faction behemots. Even magmadroths that everyone know how bad they are,are better than our behemots

[Dankboss]

2 minutes ago, Doko said:

Not he isnt.

Cost 320 and do around 10 damage with save 3

Idoneth turtle for 360 points do 21 damage,have save 2 and more wounds and give two auras of +1 hit and +1 save.

Or seraphon trex cost 210 and do 14'4 damage with save 4

Our behemots need do as double damage to be balanced with every other faction behemots. Even magmadroths that everyone know how bad they are,are better than our behemots

Pretty sure you've made this argument before.
Last time I tested against a 4+ save my Hammerhal Griffon could deal 50+ damage when fighting twice with Saint's Blade. Perhaps this argument is true for other cities, but it is not the rule.

As for the topic at hand. Aside from losing Hammerhalian Lancers, my army is absolutely winning, based on the leaks. Any points increases should be absorbed by the loss of a battalion, and my current list doesn't need the new ones unless they're free or the Enhancements are really worth it.

I generate so many CP that I often can't spend it all; last game turns 2 and 3 I had 10 CPs. The new generic CAs will let me maximize my unit's potential in every way. My favorite is Rally and All out Defence, since I almost never need another +1 to hit nor do I normally care for Battleshock. The smaller board size also helps my infantry a bit.

My army is also not affected by the coherency rules nor the new reinforcement limit. Losing Lancers sucks but the game should be overall more balanced for it, and easy access to +1 save should let my Demigryphs deal the same damage over the course of their life as they did pre-3.0.

I'm also introducing one or both of the Ven Densts to my list which will give some much needed magic protection and support killing.

Overall it's very positive.

[Doko]

Explain how you do 50 damage with him AND against save4 because even against save6 his damage median is 32

Even with the sword relik(that only work with the rider weapon) and using the sword,the battallion and his ca,his damage is around 15 even attack twice is 30.

Now i can also say the damage of fec behemoths with his spells of extra d3 attacks and doing two attacks but pretty for sure gonna be as double than 30 and dont need battallion,neither ca neither relik

Edited June 11, 2021 by Doko

[Dankboss]

15 minutes ago, Doko said:

Explain how you do 50 damage with him.

Even with the sword relik(that only work with the rider weapon) and using the sword,the battallion and his ca,his damage is around 15 even attack twice is 30.

Now i can also say the damage of fec behemoths with his spells of extra d3 attacks and doing two attacks but pretty for sure gonna be as double than 30 and dont need battallion,neither ca neither relik

It CAN do up to 50+

If I really want something near the objective dead I use reroll 1s to hit from All out Attack, and my command trait gives me reroll 1s to wound; with +1 to hit and wound (Lancers), and another +1 to hit from his CA to make the claws hit on 2s, I literally cannot fail my attacks (hyperbole). I have so many CPs I can do this at my leisure.

5 attacks with sword doing 3 damage for 15

2 from beak doing 8

6 from claws doing 12

That is a potential 70 damage when fighting twice, not accounting for the few that will be saved by a 4+ (before rend).

I can and do blow whole units of 30 Longbeards off the table.

Edit: doing even 30 damage should be enough to rinse most things in the game.

Edited June 11, 2021 by Dankboss

[Doko]

Even then you wont do hit and wound with everything  as you have said and also the enemy gonna save 33% of that damage and 16% of the beak,i can say that my irondrakes kill 100 models with save 2 each turn but it is false.

The fact is gryfon cost 320 and do 10 damage.

Now you spend battallion,relik,warlord trait,3 ca(that even in hammerhall you wont have so many even if you bring 10 banners) and he does as 50 after attack twice againsth no save,now againsth save4 gonna kill around 40 with luck. And then enemy does 14 mortals in one round to you deathstar where you soent everithing and you can surrender.

As i said base damage is 10 for 320points, if we compare to others behemoths buffed the list is long and per example seraphons tryceratops or trex easily can do 70+ damage with so much less spent than you karl franz.

 

But to be sincere i didnt did numbers never with all the you said and can be fun to try.

I usually only run black dragon in anvilguard where the buffs are so much less

Edited June 11, 2021 by Doko

[Dankboss]

1 minute ago, Doko said:

Even then you wont do hit and wound with everything  as you have said and also the enemy gonna save 33% of that damage and 16% of the beak,i can say that my irondrakes kill 100 models with save 2 each turn but it is false.

The fact is gryfon cost 320 and do 10 damage.

Now you spend battallion,relik,warlord trait,3 ca(that even in hammerhall you wont have so many even if you bring 10 banners) and he does as 50 after attack twice againsth no save,now againsth save4 gonna kill around 40 with luck. And then enemy does 14 mortals in one round to you deathstar where you soent everithing and you can surrender.

As i said base damage is 10 for 320points, if we compare to others behemoths buffed the list is long

What I have said is true in my experiences. Ifs buts and maybes only go so far. I have done this and continue to do this; regardless, my griffon always does enough damage when I need him to, 30, 40 or 50+ it doesn't matter, it's enough. It's also not my Deathstar XD My Demigryphs are the real work horse of the army; the Griffon sometimes doesn't even get to play (in part because Be'lakor says no).

If you don't play my specific army it's probably not wise to tell me what I can and can't do. Everyone's experiences are different depending on local meta.

(Also, Saint's Blade is -2 so it's also 16%)

[Doko]

Im sorry if you taken it wrong,but usually i ignore hyperbole datas or anecdoticals games.

As you says i dont play your list,my list is around irondrakes.

But when i compare numbers i dont says that my 30 irondrakes kill 60 save4 enemys because every unit of the game if you stack buff on it do huge numbers also, so usually only unbuffed damage is used for compare.

But as i said unbuffed city behemots are a joke,you full buffed behemot is great,good for you but every other unit with the same buffs gonna outdamage all our behemots,but this for other post so i wont add more

[Dankboss]

Just now, Doko said:

Im sorry if you taken it wrong,but usually i ignore hyperbole datas or anecdoticals games.

As you says i dont play your list,my list is around irondrakes.

But when i compare numbers i dont says that my 30 irondrakes kill 60 save4 enemys because every unit of the game if you stack buff on it do huge numbers also, so usually only unbuffed damage is used for compare.

But as i said unbuffed city behemots are a joke,you full buffed behemot is great,good for you but every other unit with the same buffs gonna outdamage all our behemots,but this for other post so i wont add more

That's why I said could/can, and that whatever damage it does do, it's almost always enough. Anyway, we are straying from the real topic at hand.

[zilberfrid]

Dawnbringer crusade is a dumb name for religious nonsense.

There are no crucifixes in the imagery, so crusades are the wrong word.

It's just a bit of colonisation in the name of the King and religious leader* to bring the savages to heel.

No idea whether nonhumans will be allowed.

Technically my army isn't that much affected though, though Order has no decent Behemoths outside of Celestial Hurricanum, and that's not for the Behemothing.

* Did you know Queen Elisabeth technically is also both leader of state and church?

[Expendable Grunt]

If the Soulblight tome is anything to go by, we could see units with multiple weapon options have them condensed down to one (see skeletons as the prime example). On one hand, this would cut down some strategic choices, especially if units like Freeguild Guard lose their 2" range options, but on the other, it would reduce the chance of people building their models 'wrong' as weapon profiles change from edition to edition.

Personally, i'd love to see Demigryph Knights get the Blood Knight weapon profile (3/3/-1/1, with 2 damage on the charge), especially if we're losing the lancers battalion. Seems like a decent middle ground between their two current options and keeps them viable in a variety of situations.

[Andalf]

Bespoke warscroll battalions are in play still according to the latest war-com article.  Yadda-yadda Regiments of Renown something or other.

Edited June 11, 2021 by Andalf

[BaronBanana]

Just a thought, but would xbows be better in 3.0 than handgunners due to cap on hit?  You lose rend but double your shots.  I'm not super math hammery, my brain is simple and thinks big number go brrrrt

[zilberfrid]

5 minutes ago, BaronBanana said:

Just a thought, but would xbows be better in 3.0 than handgunners due to cap on hit?  You lose rend but double your shots.  I'm not super math hammery, my brain is simple and thinks big number go brrrrt

Warscrolls will need to be rewritten for Guards, Crossbowmen and Handgunners. Or a new set comes out and these are dumped.

They don't deal mortal wounds, so their damage output doesn't fit the new meta anyway.

[Dankboss]

9 hours ago, Expendable Grunt said:

If the Soulblight tome is anything to go by, we could see units with multiple weapon options have them condensed down to one (see skeletons as the prime example). On one hand, this would cut down some strategic choices, especially if units like Freeguild Guard lose their 2" range options, but on the other, it would reduce the chance of people building their models 'wrong' as weapon profiles change from edition to edition.

Personally, i'd love to see Demigryph Knights get the Blood Knight weapon profile (3/3/-1/1, with 2 damage on the charge), especially if we're losing the lancers battalion. Seems like a decent middle ground between their two current options and keeps them viable in a variety of situations.

I'd rather have the -2 rend personally. Plus, unlike most cavalry in the game, their mount can actually fight, which sets them apart from others in their weight class.

[Expendable Grunt]

4 hours ago, Dankboss said:

I'd rather have the -2 rend personally. Plus, unlike most cavalry in the game, their mount can actually fight, which sets them apart from others in their weight class.

That's a fair point, especially considering how achievable 2+ saves are in the new edition. Whilst it feels awful to fail/get charged on lance demis, that probably says more about my generalship than the warscroll. I'm guessing units of three will be the way to go with the new edition, thanks to the new coherency rules. Then again, Hammerhal will be swimming in CP if MSU is the new norm, so multiple units fighting twice should be pretty common.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

9 hours ago, Dankboss said:

I'd rather have the -2 rend personally. Plus, unlike most cavalry in the game, their mount can actually fight, which sets them apart from others in their weight class.

If you have the choice between +1 rend and going from damage 1 to damage 2, damage 2 is mathematically always better or equally good.

11 hours ago, zilberfrid said:

Warscrolls will need to be rewritten for Guards, Crossbowmen and Handgunners

Because they would be too good? Handgunners at least are great with the ability to reincforce twice and double overwatch when charged. Guard also seem good, they barely got touched by the new coherency rules because of their 25mm bases.

[Dankboss]

1 hour ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

If you have the choice between +1 rend and going from damage 1 to damage 2, damage 2 is mathematically always better or equally good.

Demigryphs get both -2 and damage 2

Edited June 12, 2021 by Dankboss

[zilberfrid]

1 hour ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

If you have the choice between +1 rend and going from damage 1 to damage 2, damage 2 is mathematically always better or equally good.

Because they would be too good? Handgunners at least are great with the ability to reincforce twice and double overwatch when charged. Guard also seem good, they barely got touched by the new coherency rules because of their 25mm bases.

No, guards because they are made for larger units, and if bonus is limited to +1, the warscroll does something weird.

Handgunners, on second thought, are fine. I already fielded them in msu's for sniping.

Not sure how relevant non-mortal wound damage dealers will be, but that's something for the future.

[Popisdead]

I'm very excited.

 

I think Wanderers got a bit of a leg up here.  Rangers will have some reliability over a tournament likely early on at least seeing lots of Behemoths.  

Also you can easily get up to 30 Rangers and Eternal Guard as well as ambushing SotW dropping within the battalion if you wanted a one-drop.  I still think Warlord is a better battalion than Battle Regiment.  Plus those unit's reach with 25 mm are good.  3x7 they get a boost for coherency.  

I'm also keen to see some abilities triggered of Unit champions.  

Plus stacked up bonuses on a dragon isn't bad.  Alarielle's new warscroll has some legs still.

[SentinelGuy]

1 hour ago, Popisdead said:

I'm very excited.

 

I think Wanderers got a bit of a leg up here.  Rangers will have some reliability over a tournament likely early on at least seeing lots of Behemoths.  

Also you can easily get up to 30 Rangers and Eternal Guard as well as ambushing SotW dropping within the battalion if you wanted a one-drop.  I still think Warlord is a better battalion than Battle Regiment.  Plus those unit's reach with 25 mm are good.  3x7 they get a boost for coherency.  

I'm also keen to see some abilities triggered of Unit champions.  

Plus stacked up bonuses on a dragon isn't bad.  Alarielle's new warscroll has some legs still.

Interesting thoughts on the Warlord battalion. I hadn't considered it, but you are right, it probably is better for CoS.

I'm considering full MSU armies now - 3 units of Irondrakes, 3 units of Eternal Guard, backed up by Wizard on Hurricanum and a Runelord. Then I'll fill the force out with fast objective grabbers and heavy hitters. Perhaps I'll run Hammerhal for the double charge and battle shock immunity, but I know that my brother is going to run Seraphon, so maybe Hallowheart's anti magic would be more useful. I can still get battle shock immunity from their trait. Hmmm

 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

13 hours ago, SentinelGuy said:

Interesting thoughts on the Warlord battalion. I hadn't considered it, but you are right, it probably is better for CoS.

I'm considering full MSU armies now - 3 units of Irondrakes, 3 units of Eternal Guard, backed up by Wizard on Hurricanum and a Runelord. Then I'll fill the force out with fast objective grabbers and heavy hitters. Perhaps I'll run Hammerhal for the double charge and battle shock immunity, but I know that my brother is going to run Seraphon, so maybe Hallowheart's anti magic would be more useful. I can still get battle shock immunity from their trait. Hmmm

 

Thinking about it, Cities can probably even manage double Warlord for two extra enhancements and command points. I don't think most Cities lists bring more than two big heroes, usually. The Hurricanum seems like the only staple hero with 10 or more wounds.

EDIT: Filling up on sub-commanders is also easy. Just slap a bunch of Assassins/Witch Hunters/Battlemages in there.

Edited June 16, 2021 by Neil Arthur Hotep

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

I'm still working my way through all the Cities units, but Handgunners seem really good right now. Especially in Tempest's Eye.

First of all: What is the movement range of Handgunners? Turn 1 in Tempest's Eye it is potentially 5" (move)+8" (run, musician bonus, TE run bonus)+3" (TE first turn bonus)=16". So you can definitely get them where you need to go turn 1. And the Tempest's Eye command ability can give them run+shoot, as well!

Handgunners are Freeguild units, who previously specialized in stacking +1 to hit effects from their warscrolls and the Freeguild General. Since bonuses to hit are capped at +1, is that useless now? I would say no: They still get to hit on 3+, and giving them more than +1 to hit helps to protect against -1 to hit effects.

There is one fairly prominent -1 to hit effect: Unleash Hell. So Freeguild Handgunners will be better than other units at using this ability. Between the +1 to hit from their warscroll, and from the Freeguild General or Hurricanum, you can Unleash Hell at +1 to hit instead of -1 to hit. You also get a +1 to wound out of the deal if you use the General's ability. So overall, once you are entrenched with them, they shoot at +1/+1 on reaction against anything that charges them (or a unit nearby, in the case of Unleash Hell).

And, of course, they get to also shoot on reaction against charges for free on their warscroll. So effectively double Unleash Hell.

So what's the damage like? For 30 guys, one salvo:

Save	Handgunners	Handgunners buffed
2+	3.33	5.56
3+	5	8.33
4+	6.67	11.11
5+	8.33	13.89
6+	10	16.67
-	10	16.67

Charging these guys seems incredibly hard, even without any screens. Potentially, a unit of Handgunners will shoot a unit that wants to charge them once in the shooting phase, and then twice in the charge phase. Can your unit live 50 points worth of rend -1 damage? If not, maybe reconsider charging these guys. Even in the unbuffed case, you are still looking at about 30 damage, which is still scary.

Tempest's Eye probably has no problem pumping out command points between the Seerstone artefact, Celestial visions spell and general Cities mechanics like the Adjutant. Core battalions are also super easy to fill. Warlord gives you another command point to use whenever, and you could pick up the Patrician's Helm on top of it to give to your Freeguild General to make these guys battleshock immune.

EDIT: Sisters of the Watch are another option that can pull off nearly the same combo. You need to take 30 and a Hurricanum with the Hawk Eyed command trait for a +1 hit/wound bubble if you want a strong Unleash Hell out of them. Theirs is slightly weaker than that of Handgunners because they can't get to +2 to hit. However, their normal shooting phase shooting is stronger. They get two attacks, 2+/2+, mortals on 6 to wound in addition with support from the Hurricanum. Pretty terrifying.

Edited June 16, 2021 by Neil Arthur Hotep