AoS3 - Kruleboyz Discussion

[Horizons]

3 hours ago, Zorki said:

Hello,

Do you think Mannok Da Kunnin' is worth it to include in a standard big Yellers army ? (Something like 2 shaman / 1 sludgeraker / 2x6 or 1x9 boltboyz / 1 breaka boss..) + if he's the army leader we have 1 + 1(if roll right) Dirty trick ok but we loose 1 command trait like Supa Sneaky etc.. 

Personnaly including Mannok looks good but not in army leader.

 

What do you think ?

Personally I find Kruleboyz pts to be very tight. When trying to see if a Warscroll will fit the army I'd ask myself what does he bring to my list, what am I cutting to make him fit.

If your thinking oooh, Double Dirty tricks, Remember that it's only a 33% chance to go off. If you spend a whole day and play 3 games you'll on average only get it once. And to make it worse alot of our dirty also require another dice roll.

Can increase to 50% by foregoing a Command trait But I think our 3 Command traits are too good to pass up.

At 175 he compares to Breakaboss, 10 Gutrippaz.

I think Breakaboss is a great solo piece that can threaten a flank. I'd really only take him instead of 10 Rippaz If you already had the battlelines. I think Rippaz in 10's are pretty meh, in 20/30's they're amazing. But Then you're paying 175 pts for a 33% chance at an extra Trick and 15 wounds to sit on an objective.

[W1tchhunter]

If you disappearing act a unit, can the opponent move the unit after they reappear?

[Beliman]

59 minutes ago, W1tchhunter said:

If you disappearing act a unit, can the opponent move the unit after they reappear?

Nop. The units come at the end of the movement phase. That's when everything already has happened, same timing as leaving a garrison.

[Sivyre]

On 10/26/2021 at 10:32 AM, Horizons said:

Personally I find Kruleboyz pts to be very tight. When trying to see if a Warscroll will fit the army I'd ask myself what does he bring to my list, what am I cutting to make him fit.

If your thinking oooh, Double Dirty tricks, Remember that it's only a 33% chance to go off. If you spend a whole day and play 3 games you'll on average only get it once. And to make it worse alot of our dirty also require another dice roll.

Can increase to 50% by foregoing a Command trait But I think our 3 Command traits are too good to pass up.

At 175 he compares to Breakaboss, 10 Gutrippaz.

I think Breakaboss is a great solo piece that can threaten a flank. I'd really only take him instead of 10 Rippaz If you already had the battlelines. I think Rippaz in 10's are pretty meh, in 20/30's they're amazing. But Then you're paying 175 pts for a 33% chance at an extra Trick and 15 wounds to sit on an objective.

You play that 170 pts unit on a side obj with a troggoth and now your opponent has to devote so much points to remove it from you.

troggoth averages 12.11 Wounds and mannok averages 9.01 MW before taking into account its missile attacks. It’s a lot of threat for only 350 combined points. it’s this tiny 2 unit block that your opponent can’t remove with an MSU and they gotta do something about it. But for you it’s just these 2 units that are self reliant and require no other support that have 27 wounds combined. Give that troggoth amulet of destiny and you have this beef stick working his regen, 4+ save with 5++. 
 

And silly mannok can bounce wounds to a 2 wound grot.

As well as mannok’s ability to snatch at the end of each combat phase, twice a turn you can disrupt coherency. 

It’s likely your opponent will need to invest more points into this obj than you.

Edited October 27, 2021 by Sivyre

[Abstract_duck]

17 hours ago, Sivyre said:

troggoth averages 12.11 MW and mannok averages 9.01 MW before taking into account its missile attacks. It’s a lot of threat for only 350 combined points.

Do you mean the mire-brute? That one averages less then 2 Mortal Wounds, right? The mount doesn't have VEW.

[Mutton]

I find that most lists I build end up running 5-10 points over, which is where I think Mannok's crew really shines over Gutrippaz. That 10 extra points can mean adding a whole unit that you might not normally have. I'm not paying $90 for a warband though...even splitting it on discount is going to be $40+. The inflation on underworlds has been maniacal.

[Sivyre]

7 hours ago, Abstract_duck said:

Do you mean the mire-brute? That one averages less then 2 Mortal Wounds, right? The mount doesn't have 

7 hours ago, Abstract_duck said:

 

Edited October 27, 2021 by Sivyre
Broke the code

[zombiepiratexxx]

I'll be splitting Harrowdeep with my SCE playing friend. I think Mannok does have a place, but like has already been mentioned finding a spot for him will be tough with how much other stuff we want to include. Having Gutrippas as the only Battleline really does hamstring us unless you're going Big Yellerz. 

[Sivyre]

1 hour ago, zombiepiratexxx said:

I'll be splitting Harrowdeep with my SCE playing friend. I think Mannok does have a place, but like has already been mentioned finding a spot for him will be tough with how much other stuff we want to include. Having Gutrippas as the only Battleline really does hamstring us unless you're going Big Yellerz. 

Eh it’s not that difficult at all, 

My new list for example I have 20 gutrippaz 15 boltboyz still included all the other junk from the range and still had the space to fit mannok in for an even 2k 5drop list. This list gives me the freedom to either play 2 x 20 guttrippaz and 6 bolt or 1 x 20 guttrippaz and 1 x 9 and 1 x 6 bolt. And this is still with 2 x 10 grotts for screens.
 

I am thankful mannok is 170 because I already have a KB, his inclusion allows it so I don’t need to take a 2nd one just to fill the points.

the overall issue is the fact the single battleline choice so we’re ‘kinda’ forced into big yellers, this is what I find most upsetting about our kruleboyz.

Edited October 28, 2021 by Sivyre

[Beliman]

1 hour ago, zombiepiratexxx said:

Having Gutrippas as the only Battleline really does hamstring us unless you're going Big Yellerz. 

Battlelines and subfactions in kruleboyz are really an step behind the whole 3.0 design.

Instead of having a lot of cool kits to buy, we are just fishing for boltboyz/guttrippaz from Dominion or buy a few boxes.

[Landohammer]

Quick update. Have played 11 games with Kruleboyz so far. Current record is 9-2.

I honestly think the bolt boyz covered in mud carry the army. I usually bring a Mega as an ally but have experimented with a unit of 6 Fellwater Troggoths with some success. (check them out, they are solid). The Sludgeraker, Swampa calla, and at least 12 bolt boyz are an auto include IMHO. Big yellers are also the only subfaction I would ever consider.

I did want to share a pretty rough game I had recently, as it does highlight some of our weaknesses in the meta. Happy for thoughts and feedback.

The Vice. Kruleboyz vs LRL

This was a long form deployment. He had Teclis and 30 sentinels, Scinari and some wardens, and I knew I was in trouble. He deployed his Sentinels literally on the short board edge behind a large rock. 

He gives me first turn, I supa sneaky a Breakaboss and "Fast'un" double move a Vulcha boss and both make it into this Sentinels. This was a hail mary to try and do as much damage as I could to them. But between his -1 to hit, atherquartz, and all out defense from his Scinari, I only managed to kill about half the squad.

Both of my models die next turn to shooting/magic and he casts Emerald Lifeswarm, and proceeds to roll nothing but 5+ and brings al the sentinels back in 2 turns. So basically my 420pt sacrifice meant nothing

The rest of the game is me trying to move up the board while getting massacred by Sentinels and Tecnado. I never make it close enough to matter, and only kill Teclis because he double moves onto my objective to get conquer. 

LRL win 25-21

The score was a bit misleading because this game never felt close or winnable. Sentinels being able to deploy 42 inches away (behind a giant rock)  and delete units (with +6" range spell, power of hysh, and sometimes Lambent light casted through a spellportal) was really demoralizing. Also total eclipse was usually up meaning I didn't have the CP to keep inspiring presence up. His spells rarely failed, and when they did he rerolled with his terrain piece or aetherquartz.  

I think the scenario combined with terrain had a lot to do with it. Sentinels getting a long form deployment and a giant rock to hide behind is the perfect storm.

Anyone have any thoughts on how to counter LRL? I keep circling back to a Mega, since they are able to weather the shots and move fast enough to reach them. But they just feel like a crutch. 

 

 

[Fabbbio]

1 hour ago, Landohammer said:

Quick update. Have played 11 games with Kruleboyz so far. Current record is 9-2.

I honestly think the bolt boyz covered in mud carry the army. I usually bring a Mega as an ally but have experimented with a unit of 6 Fellwater Troggoths with some success. (check them out, they are solid). The Sludgeraker, Swampa calla, and at least 12 bolt boyz are an auto include IMHO. Big yellers are also the only subfaction I would ever consider.

I did want to share a pretty rough game I had recently, as it does highlight some of our weaknesses in the meta. Happy for thoughts and feedback.

The Vice. Kruleboyz vs LRL

This was a long form deployment. He had Teclis and 30 sentinels, Scinari and some wardens, and I knew I was in trouble. He deployed his Sentinels literally on the short board edge behind a large rock. 

He gives me first turn, I supa sneaky a Breakaboss and "Fast'un" double move a Vulcha boss and both make it into this Sentinels. This was a hail mary to try and do as much damage as I could to them. But between his -1 to hit, atherquartz, and all out defense from his Scinari, I only managed to kill about half the squad.

Both of my models die next turn to shooting/magic and he casts Emerald Lifeswarm, and proceeds to roll nothing but 5+ and brings al the sentinels back in 2 turns. So basically my 420pt sacrifice meant nothing

The rest of the game is me trying to move up the board while getting massacred by Sentinels and Tecnado. I never make it close enough to matter, and only kill Teclis because he double moves onto my objective to get conquer. 

LRL win 25-21

The score was a bit misleading because this game never felt close or winnable. Sentinels being able to deploy 42 inches away (behind a giant rock)  and delete units (with +6" range spell, power of hysh, and sometimes Lambent light casted through a spellportal) was really demoralizing. Also total eclipse was usually up meaning I didn't have the CP to keep inspiring presence up. His spells rarely failed, and when they did he rerolled with his terrain piece or aetherquartz.  

I think the scenario combined with terrain had a lot to do with it. Sentinels getting a long form deployment and a giant rock to hide behind is the perfect storm.

Anyone have any thoughts on how to counter LRL? I keep circling back to a Mega, since they are able to weather the shots and move fast enough to reach them. But they just feel like a crutch. 

 

 

What about Supa sneaking 20 hobgrots close to them? If then you got turn 1 you can shoot and charge them, making the sentinels lose at least a turn of shooting. If he chooses instead to eliminate them taking turn 1, not only they lose a turn of shooting, but also you get the 2nd turn.

[Landohammer]

24 minutes ago, Fabbbio said:

What about Supa sneaking 20 hobgrots close to them? If then you got turn 1 you can shoot and charge them, making the sentinels lose at least a turn of shooting. If he chooses instead to eliminate them taking turn 1, not only they lose a turn of shooting, but also you get the 2nd turn.

I appreciate the response. Thats an interesting idea. But i'm afraid the hob grots wouldn't be able to do much, if any, damage to sentinels. Mostly because of shining company. And the unleash hell would likely kill a chunk of them. And then you would need to burn a CP to keep them from running away.

Thats one of the reasons I prefer to teleport the breakaboss, because he can pop finest hour and walk into unleash ****** with a 3+, and just flat out doesn't have to worry about battleshock. 

So best case scenario, a handful of hob grots would survive to die in my opponents magic phase. 

Also keep in mind this is predicated on the player not actually screening the sentinels. The only reason my opponent didn't was because he had never played vs Kruleboyz before and I don't think he understood the double move or teleport.

HOWEVER you do have me wandering if teleporting 20 Gutrippaz would have been smarter. They have a bit more staying power than hob grotz, and may have been able to stick around long enough to deny multiple shooting phases. Total Eclipse remains a problem though, as the gutrippaz are going to bleed to battleshock tests and inspiring presence would cost 2 CP when its up.

 

 

[Rachmani]

I think the solution to this will be on the LRL side rather than ours. 
The matchup feels super bad with how you generally want to field krulez.

MSU works well against a block of 30, but i don’t like MSU that much against other stuff.

[Abstract_duck]

The VP score of your game makes me wonder: did the LRL player not try to score too much, or was he having a decently hard time to score despite ruining your alpha strike? I feel like losing with just 4 points implies that it might've helped to just ignore the sentinels during the start, and instead using the bird and troll to score points. I get that getting tabled feels unwinnable, but unless the LRL player went easy on you in regards to scoring points, it seems like you might've tried to focus on VP,  even if you'd get tabled. I'd think that Kruleboyz have plenty of wounds to survive MW spam.

 

[Mutton]

On 10/29/2021 at 9:28 AM, Landohammer said:

Anyone have any thoughts on how to counter LRL?

I know the pain of LRL. They're way under pointed for what their units do. Aside from maybe Archaon, Sentinels are legitimately the most overpowered unit in the game right now. The biggest issue is there's no way to counter them--they have everything. I think you just wait and see if GW ever decides to raise their points or kneecap them in some other way.

The only time I've ever been able to win against LRL with mass sentinels is because I was using a teleporting Morathi (who doesn't care about unleash hell and the 15 mw's dealt to her). If I'm using any other army, I just won't play against LRL. But I realize if you're going to a tournament that's not an option.

Edited October 30, 2021 by Mutton

[Lord Veshnakar]

I would love to play an all Hobgrot force but I suppose that isn't much of an option? There's no way to make Hobgrots battleline correct? Even if no, I think there are some conversion opportunities, I might play around with it. 

[Squark]

1 hour ago, Lord Veshnakar said:

I would love to play an all Hobgrot force but I suppose that isn't much of an option? There's no way to make Hobgrots battleline correct? Even if no, I think there are some conversion opportunities, I might play around with it. 

Correct. Our only battline choices are gutrippaz and Big Yellers Boltboyz

[Beliman]

9 hours ago, Lord Veshnakar said:

I would love to play an all Hobgrot force but I suppose that isn't much of an option? There's no way to make Hobgrots battleline correct? Even if no, I think there are some conversion opportunities, I might play around with it. 

That would be a dream. With maybe a new Hobgrot hero and a new troop/cavalry...

Btw, the Hobgrot from the Underworlds Warband is awesome!!

[Phasteon]

15 hours ago, Mutton said:

I know the pain of LRL. They're way under pointed for what their units do. Aside from maybe Archaon, Sentinels are legitimately the most overpowered unit in the game right now. The biggest issue is there's no way to counter them--they have everything. I think you just wait and see if GW ever decides to raise their points or kneecap them in some other way.

The only time I've ever been able to win against LRL with mass sentinels is because I was using a teleporting Morathi (who doesn't care about unleash hell and the 15 mw's dealt to her). If I'm using any other army, I just won't play against LRL. But I realize if you're going to a tournament that's not an option.

LRL are pretty expensive for what they do. 

You can just counter them by putting cheap wounds on objectives or by wards. 

Kruleboyz are an extremely gimmicky army, with their biggest trick being blocking LOS and high MW alphastrike with 27“ range shooters. 

We are in no position to call LRL overpowered because in every other match up (ignoring LOS being the sentinel thing hardcountering our main strategy) we come out on top.

[W1tchhunter]

50 minutes ago, Phasteon said:

LRL are pretty expensive for what they do. 

You can just counter them by putting cheap wounds on objectives or by wards. 

Kruleboyz are an extremely gimmicky army, with their biggest trick being blocking LOS and high MW alphastrike with 27“ range shooters. 

We are in no position to call LRL overpowered because in every other match up (ignoring LOS being the sentinel thing hardcountering our main strategy) we come out on top.

I disagree, lumineth have an answer for absolutely everything.

Because of the low model count of the boltboyz once your opponent gets to them they are toast. And 12 inches isn't that hard to get to for a semi decent army, anything that has a range attack will likely destroy the unit in one volley anyway due to a 5 up save probably going to a 6. Covered in mud relies on 4s AND cover so unless the game board has terrain in your favour you might even have to move the boltboyz onto cover which ruins there range for a turn, which is bad because alot of decent shooters outrange us already.

And for subfaction with the cannot see within 12 inches (can't remember the name) that's only the first turn. This is decent but your losing big yellers which means your now having to spend points on more gutrippers and even more units now outrange the boltboyz 😛

Across our whole army its fairly hard to screen unless you have alot of hobgrots, which are useless except as a road bump.

In the games I've played I've found board presence to be fairly difficult due to needing my sludgeraker near enough to the bolt Boyz, gutrippaz and killa bow. Then the shamans need to be near them as well and then you need the killaboss near the gutrippaz. I've found playing the objective game difficult with them.

[whispersofblood]

4 hours ago, W1tchhunter said:

I disagree, lumineth have an answer for absolutely everything.

Because of the low model count of the boltboyz once your opponent gets to them they are toast. And 12 inches isn't that hard to get to for a semi decent army, anything that has a range attack will likely destroy the unit in one volley anyway due to a 5 up save probably going to a 6. Covered in mud relies on 4s AND cover so unless the game board has terrain in your favour you might even have to move the boltboyz onto cover which ruins there range for a turn, which is bad because alot of decent shooters outrange us already.

And for subfaction with the cannot see within 12 inches (can't remember the name) that's only the first turn. This is decent but your losing big yellers which means your now having to spend points on more gutrippers and even more units now outrange the boltboyz 😛

Across our whole army its fairly hard to screen unless you have alot of hobgrots, which are useless except as a road bump.

In the games I've played I've found board presence to be fairly difficult due to needing my sludgeraker near enough to the bolt Boyz, gutrippaz and killa bow. Then the shamans need to be near them as well and then you need the killaboss near the gutrippaz. I've found playing the objective game difficult with them.

You're struggling because you've built a fragile gunline and it's coming up against a gunline that isn't fragile to other gunlines. Not because a or b is over or under powered. The key to defeating LRL is giving them immediate threats to deal with that don't correspond to effecient BT selection. Their damage is very surgical and not at all significant so if they get distracted it's likely they just start failing BTs. 

LRL don't want to see gutrippers at all, an allied unit of troggoths are also rough for LRL to deal with effeciently. I'd add the Rogue Idol to that list.

My experience with boltboyz says they are a trap choice because gutrippaz don't appear strong. Long term however I see a gutrippa core supported by MSU hobgrot objective runners and screens as the model for success. Also don't sleep on hobgrot shooting it's some of the most effecient point per damage shooting in the game. 

What the army is lacking imo is a good trading unit, where IJ has goregruntas and BS have boars. The closest I've come to such a thing is a killboss either the Vulcha or the gnashtooth. 

[Horizons]

5 hours ago, Phasteon said:

Kruleboyz are an extremely gimmicky army, with their biggest trick being blocking LOS and high MW alphastrike with 27“ range shooters.

Kruleboyz have a lot of tools that allows them to alphastrike or weather an enemy alpha strike.

Supa Sneaky, Mistifying Miasma, Fast 'un allows us to easily get a turn 1 alpha strike with monsters or troops stationed 9" away. Kidnapping enemy screens also supports this playstyle. Your army really has to be built around this and it's most likely not our best build.

We also have lots of tools to weather enemy alphas. Belcha-Banner, Covered in mud, Mork's Eye Pebble lets us protect our assets from magic/shooting alphas.

Cheap Hobgrots that don't give an easy battle tactic + Noisy racket allows us to screen and hold on against fast alpha strike lists.

MW spam is such a strong Allegiance ability, combined with the rest of our tools we have what it takes to survive different meta's.

[Horizons]

15 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

You're struggling because you've built a fragile gunline and it's coming up against a gunline that isn't fragile to other gunlines. Not because a or b is over or under powered. The key to defeating LRL is giving them immediate threats to deal with that don't correspond to effecient BT selection. Their damage is very surgical and not at all significant so if they get distracted it's likely they just start failing BTs. 

LRL don't want to see gutrippers at all, an allied unit of troggoths are also rough for LRL to deal with effeciently. I'd add the Rogue Idol to that list.

My experience with boltboyz says they are a trap choice because gutrippaz don't appear strong. Long term however I see a gutrippa core supported by MSU hobgrot objective runners and screens as the model for success. Also don't sleep on hobgrot shooting it's some of the most effecient point per damage shooting in the game. 

What the army is lacking imo is a good trading unit, where IJ has goregruntas and BS have boars. The closest I've come to such a thing is a killboss either the Vulcha or the gnashtooth. 

 I agree with most of what you said. Kind of disagree that Boltboyz are a trap. Spammed Boltboyz is a trap. For 120 pts they are amazing, arguably undercosted, considering we're an army that wants synergies and are taxed a Sludgeraker + Shaman it works out.

They are both our cheapest battleline and our best threat projection at 120 pts. Beast-Skewers are just a little too unreliable.

They are incredibly too fragile, lose 1 and you're looking at a 33% chance to lose a second to battleshock. 6 wounds on a 6+.

I think Gutrippaz blocks with Boltboyz as threat projection is the way to go, either a pair of 6 man units or one 9 man. Gitz/Hobgrotz are fine bodies/screens.

Completely agree on lacking a good trading piece. Although I find both versions of the Vulture to be a little lacking. I play a lot of Dark Elf CoS, they remind me of a Dreadlord on Black Dragon/Sorceress. Pretty unreliable damage But for <300 pts you could do worse.

[Mutton]

6 hours ago, Phasteon said:

LRL are pretty expensive for what they do. 

You can just counter them by putting cheap wounds on objectives or by wards. 

We are in no position to call LRL overpowered because in every other match up (ignoring LOS being the sentinel thing hardcountering our main strategy) we come out on top.

I don't know what tabletop game you're playing, but it definitely isn't Warhammer. Or maybe you haven't played many actual games against LRL. I also don't know where this "kruleboyz always come out on top" thing is coming from. They get wiped out against plenty of other armies.