AoS3 - Soulblight Gravelord Discussion

[JackStreicher]

13 minutes ago, Vasshpit said:

Alright, alright. 🤘💀🤘 

Just saw their new scrolls and they're looking tasty as well. Very cool. 

But, you can revive them only once!

[Jaskier]

I think the VLoZD will be at home mostly in Legion of Blood, not just for the ethereal artifact but also for the +1 attack on all weapon profiles while in combat (and +1 to cast/unbind/dispel when out.) Add All Out Attack and the heroic action to turn off ward saves and it's actually a really scary unit, and the maths definitely favor the lance here. Eight total (between the lance and maw) Rend 3 Damage 3 attacks on the charge is pretty darned good. It's also nigh unkillable outside of mortal wound spam thanks to the incredible new version of the Hunger rule. 

Edited April 7, 2023 by Jaskier

[Doko]

What the heck they have done to the coven throne????? Was my favourite unit and have been deleted in every single way?????

 

The ca what gave a 33% more damage and 16% save to ANY unit have been deleted 

Reroll one dice each turn deleted

Make useless one enemy unit for entire game also gone(spell to make inmune to the coven and charge the deathstar of enemy)

Also damage nerfed from 10 damage old to 8 the new

Also a HUGE nerf in points.

 

What use have the new? Spend almost 300 points for only 8 damage model with one spell without bonus(or 2 if we are first) and give two ca to sumoneable units(again nothing for non sumoneables)

Also many hype with the new spell,but you must kill a hero with a spell of only d3 mortals.

Even if this unit can sumon one vampire lord in turn1 gonna be ****** and so much worse that spend the same points in one vampirelord and belladama.

 

I dont get it,nobody in competitive used the coven throne but was my mvp unit in every game and my most loved unit and have been butchered and done 100% useless with zero uses

But mortis engine isnt so bad,lost the bonus to spells but now have one use,charge his skill and then delete the castle of the enemy and small heroes.

Its situational but for 210 points wont hurt when enemy havent foot heroes or castle but gonna be the mvp when enemy have that setup.also the veill now at 16" is pretty cool and this season to snipe heroes together spells sound great,i really im seeing this model as autoinclude in many of my theorycrafting builds as belladama is autoinclude in every vyrkos list

 

Also both wk are pretty good now,the foot version is pretty great as buffer and finnally have one use and the mount version make now even amazing the black knigths,110 points each black knigth and made 1 mortal each model is great,a ball x3 reinforced are 330 points that gonna do 15 mortals wounds,sound pretty good and worth give it a try

Edited April 7, 2023 by Doko

[Sception]

2 hours ago, Jaskier said:

I think the VLoZD will be at home mostly in Legion of Blood

You're probably right, but there is definitely something to say for Vyrkos VLoZD paired up with a unit of Blood Knights, using the subfaction trait to attack sequentially and either Driven by Deathstench to re-roll charges for both units for free or Hunter's Snare to count the dragon lord's wounds characteristic for contesting objectives.

I'd be more excited to run VLoZD + Blood Knights in Kastelai, except for the faction trait bonuses specifically not enhancing the damage or attacks characteristics of mounts, which seems odd for the 'all cavalry' themed subfaction.  Though with its big base and durability/healing, a VLoZD can probably make good use of their 'masters of retaliation' heroic action, and Kastelai do also have a re-roll charges aura command trait, and the Fragment of the Keep does synergize nicely with the big base.

And Avengori stuff is good for monsters in general, as expected.

 

So yeah, LoB VLoZD are probably the best, but I think we're going to be seeing a lot of them in the new book, regardless of subfaction.

 

[TechnoVampire]

The new book seems to be pushing keywords and sub-faction specific abilities hard, which irks me as it limits build options significantly. I feel like GW also passed up an opportunity by not making death-rattle/ deadwalkers a sub faction, especially considering how much the book appears to encourage the use of summonable units (I’d have happily seen it replace avengorii… does anyone ever play it?)

How are people feeling about the lore of the vampires spells? I want to be more excited about them than I am, but can’t help but feel that pinions was better than any of the new options. It was such a staple. 

Edited April 7, 2023 by TechnoVampire

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

37 minutes ago, TechnoVampire said:

The new book seems to be pushing keywords and sub-faction specific abilities hard, which irks me as it limits build options significantly. I feel like GW also passed up an opportunity by not making death-rattle/ deathwalkers a sub faction, especially considering how much the book appears to encourage the use of summonable units (I’d have happily seen it replace avengorii… does anyone ever play it?)

How are people feeling about the lore of the vampires spells? I want to be more excited about them than I am, but can’t help but feel that pinions was better than any of the new options. It was such a staple. 

Deathrattle stocks have definitely gone up with this tome, but it's kinda hard to choose a subfaction for them. I am thinking of running Vyrkos, even though it does not explicitly buff them.

I am curious to try out the new spirit gale. One or two mortals doesn't sound like a lot, but if it's on literally every enemy unit it might be pretty good. Even just chipping all support heroes for a few wounds might have a big impact. The spell reads like it should be a newb trap, but I want to test it out to know for sure.

[Leshoyadut]

Just running some calcs on the new sword vs. lance on the VLoZD. This one is just a VLoZD normally.

This one is in LoB.

I think the lance is better against 2+ and 3+ saves because of the relatively small difference in non-charge damage vs. higher charge damage, but at 4+ it starts being worse overall, and at 5+ and 6+ it's worse even on a charge. If you know basically all of your opponents are going to be fielding 2+ save things that need to die, it could be better to have a lance? But it seems like sword is going to be the commonly correct call into either a more varied field or an unknown field.

This is also ignoring any other buffs which would even them out relatively, like AOA, but would still place the sword above the lance in raw numbers. Something like Flaming Sword would put sword even further ahead because it has more attacks to gain from the bonus damage.

Also, their spell seems...decent now? It does an average of 3 MWs, which isn't too bad, but casts on a 7. Including cast chance, it does ~5% more damage than an Arcane Bolt released in melee (1.666 for AB, 1.7499 for CoE), and about 109% more damage than a ranged Arcane Bolt (.8333 for AB, 1.7499 for CoE). In exchange, it can cast at an 18" range. When in LoB, if cast out of melee but released in melee, that changes to ~18% better than AB (1.8334 for AB, 2.1666 for CoE). Still a bit swingy and unreliable, but not bad on average. Comparatively, Flaming Weapon adds at least 1 damage on average, going upwards of over 3 damage, and casts on a 4, when in LoB.

Even outside of LoB, it adds almost as much (1 attack on the sword doesn't make a huge difference for Flaming Weapon).

All in all, I think sword with Flaming Weapon is a solid choice for a VLoZD. It works as a decent hammer relative to our other options and has good staying power with The Hunger giving it, on average, capped (or close to) regen every turn, though I'm not sure it's worth 440 points. But given the strong grindy game our army seems to be leaning toward, it may fit very well into what we have as a solid anvil. I think it's worth trying out, at the very least.

Edited April 7, 2023 by Leshoyadut

[RocketPropelledGrenade]

16 hours ago, Malakithe said:

Ive always preferred skellies over zombies so im okay with this

Same, but I'm happy both have utility now. I don't want my preferences to be the only good option, just for my preferences to not suck. Even if zombies stayed better, I'd have been happy if Skeletons became useful enough to take. As it stands, I think both will have play.

12 hours ago, MotherGoose said:

She also benefits from her allegiance now so gets +1 to cast and +1 attack

I totally missed that in due to old-battletome-brain! That's amazing. Combine it with the increased rend on her dagger and she can be a real assassin. I do wish the staff would trade the 2+ to hit for something else so she could be consistent in whether all-out attack is good for her, but bringing her most damaging per-attack weapon to what is effectively 4 attacks from 2 is huge already.

8 hours ago, TechnoVampire said:

How do others feel about the new VLOZD warscroll? I know it’s technically an improvement, but I can’t help but feel a bit disappointed by it. Probably more of an anvil than a hammer unit? I’m confused by this books lack of command ability’s on hero’s (although I am aware numerous hero’s have got free a ability’s now which is cool)… He seems to be a 440 point hunk of meat without a whole lot else going on.

Definitely more of an anvil still. I ran it with Soulbound Garments before, will now run it with the new "ethereal amulet" type thing and do the same role. My big complaint is they got the balance between the sword and lance nearly perfect, but flubbed it so the lance is still clearly better. The sword would be great for the attrition anvil role if it went to 2 rend instead of 2+ to wound. Now it's more of a horde clear weapon, but you don't want to send a 440 point unit to hunt chaff. It's more consistent on getting to make the enemy to take save rolls at all because of the high attacks and 2+ to wound, but still bad against hard targets that the lance can spike on. It also benefits less from the LoB attacks boost.

 

One big of tech I'm going to need to get the FAQ on is whether the Command Trait where you nominate units to be hit on a 2+ is applicable to a) rider only, b) rider and mount, or c) whole army. I read it as option c but I'm not sure. Even just option b would be amazing, as you could get the zombie dragon as one of the most accurate units in the game. Munch a couple Chosen or Protectors each turn with the bite alone, then heal back the damage they do.

[Gothmaug]

I actually think the Corpse Cart and Zombies are now more useful as a Regiment of Renoun for another death army, than they are for a soulblight Gravelords Army. The regiment grants The corpse cart the HERO status (for look out sir) a 6+ ward to the zombies, a 5+ ward to the cart and -1 to the enemy ward rolls within 12". 

It makes me sad you cant use the regiment IN a soulblight army..

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

9 minutes ago, Leshoyadut said:

Just running some calcs on the new sword vs. lance on the VLoZD.

In my mind that looks like a toss up, because more damage against 2+/3+ is probably more valuable than more damage against 4+/5+/6+. I think for general use, build what looks cooler. For tournament use, see if one hits benchmarks on relevant threats that the other doesn't.

7 minutes ago, Gothmaug said:

I actually think the Corpse Cart and Zombies are now more useful as a Regiment of Renoun for another death army, than they are for a soulblight Gravelords Army. The regiment grants The corpse cart the HERO status (for look out sir) a 6+ ward to the zombies, a 5+ ward to the cart and -1 to the enemy ward rolls within 12". 

It makes me sad you cant use the regiment IN a soulblight army..

Probably a very good pick in OBR as long as those rules stay valid. That army really has trouble getting bodies on the table with their new book.

[Gery81]

1 hour ago, RocketPropelledGrenade said:

One big of tech I'm going to need to get the FAQ on is whether the Command Trait where you nominate units to be hit on a 2+ is applicable to a) rider only, b) rider and mount, or c) whole army. I read it as option c but I'm not sure. Even just option b would be amazing, as you could get the zombie dragon as one of the most accurate units in the game. Munch a couple Chosen or Protectors each turn with the bite alone, then heal back the damage they do.

Doomed minions say, that if your general is within 3" of a selected unit, than every attack with a melee weapon hits on an unmodified 2+ against that unit. So, c), whole army.

[TechnoVampire]

Does anyone know if we’re no longer getting mount traits, or have they just not been shown yet?

[FeralMulan]

Okay ladies and gents, I've had my first game and here are my thoughts/observations:

 - I was playing Vyrkos, and while initially I was down on the Trait change, the sequential activation is amazing. You are able to set up some lovely little Deathballs and get the most out of your buffs, it was magical.

 - We definitely seem to be an attrition faction now - most of the damage buffs are gone/fairly anemic, but the healing and the regen feels so much better. I was playing into new OBS (who have some INSANE abilities, btw) and I just ground him down.

 - The +1 to Ward Vyrkos Relic is real clutch on the Wight King.
 

 - Vengorian Lord is still just a damage sponge, barely did anything all game but never came close to dying.

 - New spells feel far better, the extra effects on 9+ are great when they happen, but don't feel essential. Spirit Gale is real nice to add to the attrition, Vile Transference is clutch against a lot of Centerpiece, and all of the Deathmage ones are great. Especially Fading Vigour can insanely mess up your opponent's elite units. 

 - Belladama Volga is still the greatest, her exploding 6s spell having a 24" range makes her a phenomenal support unit - especially since she can heroic action D3 Dire Wolves into existence each battle round to keep her safe. Would recommend.

 - Grave Guard having 2" wepons is sweet, but hitting on 4s feels rough. Essentially needing All out Attack to be efficient is not the best. Being able to get the +1 attack from a Vamp Lord without CP spent IS the best, however

 - Lot of our Battle Tactics are pretty pants. Very situational. Ended up only using one (have a Summonable unit die) and it still felt like giving my opponent too much control. Grand strategies are better: Empire of Corpses is a near Guarantee with the new mechanic, and Lust for Domination plays into our attrition playstyle.

Hope to get some more games in with different subfactions and report back. I'm feeling positive!

[TechnoVampire]

 

1 hour ago, FeralMulan said:

Okay ladies and gents, I've had my first game and here are my thoughts/observations:

 - I was playing Vyrkos, and while initially I was down on the Trait change, the sequential activation is amazing. You are able to set up some lovely little Deathballs and get the most out of your buffs, it was magical.

 - We definitely seem to be an attrition faction now - most of the damage buffs are gone/fairly anemic, but the healing and the regen feels so much better. I was playing into new OBS (who have some INSANE abilities, btw) and I just ground him down.

 - The +1 to Ward Vyrkos Relic is real clutch on the Wight King.
 

 - Vengorian Lord is still just a damage sponge, barely did anything all game but never came close to dying.

 - New spells feel far better, the extra effects on 9+ are great when they happen, but don't feel essential. Spirit Gale is real nice to add to the attrition, Vile Transference is clutch against a lot of Centerpiece, and all of the Deathmage ones are great. Especially Fading Vigour can insanely mess up your opponent's elite units. 

 - Belladama Volga is still the greatest, her exploding 6s spell having a 24" range makes her a phenomenal support unit - especially since she can heroic action D3 Dire Wolves into existence each battle round to keep her safe. Would recommend.

 - Grave Guard having 2" wepons is sweet, but hitting on 4s feels rough. Essentially needing All out Attack to be efficient is not the best. Being able to get the +1 attack from a Vamp Lord without CP spent IS the best, however

 - Lot of our Battle Tactics are pretty pants. Very situational. Ended up only using one (have a Summonable unit die) and it still felt like giving my opponent too much control. Grand strategies are better: Empire of Corpses is a near Guarantee with the new mechanic, and Lust for Domination plays into our attrition playstyle.

Hope to get some more games in with different subfactions and report back. I'm feeling positive!

… maybe I’ll start playing OBR 😅

[FeralMulan]

30 minutes ago, TechnoVampire said:

 

… maybe I’ll start playing OBR 😅

I haven't seen ALL the abilities

But Katakros is stupid good

Whole army hitting on 2s with him around

They are swimming in CP with a ton of really useful command abilities.

They have some pretty great spells too, not to mention the subfaction I played against had a dumb*ss -1 damage thing on their best units.

[Leshoyadut]

8 hours ago, FeralMulan said:

Okay ladies and gents, I've had my first game and here are my thoughts/observations:

 - I was playing Vyrkos, and while initially I was down on the Trait change, the sequential activation is amazing. You are able to set up some lovely little Deathballs and get the most out of your buffs, it was magical.

 - We definitely seem to be an attrition faction now - most of the damage buffs are gone/fairly anemic, but the healing and the regen feels so much better. I was playing into new OBS (who have some INSANE abilities, btw) and I just ground him down.

 - The +1 to Ward Vyrkos Relic is real clutch on the Wight King.
 

 - Vengorian Lord is still just a damage sponge, barely did anything all game but never came close to dying.

 - New spells feel far better, the extra effects on 9+ are great when they happen, but don't feel essential. Spirit Gale is real nice to add to the attrition, Vile Transference is clutch against a lot of Centerpiece, and all of the Deathmage ones are great. Especially Fading Vigour can insanely mess up your opponent's elite units. 

 - Belladama Volga is still the greatest, her exploding 6s spell having a 24" range makes her a phenomenal support unit - especially since she can heroic action D3 Dire Wolves into existence each battle round to keep her safe. Would recommend.

 - Grave Guard having 2" wepons is sweet, but hitting on 4s feels rough. Essentially needing All out Attack to be efficient is not the best. Being able to get the +1 attack from a Vamp Lord without CP spent IS the best, however

 - Lot of our Battle Tactics are pretty pants. Very situational. Ended up only using one (have a Summonable unit die) and it still felt like giving my opponent too much control. Grand strategies are better: Empire of Corpses is a near Guarantee with the new mechanic, and Lust for Domination plays into our attrition playstyle.

Hope to get some more games in with different subfactions and report back. I'm feeling positive!

This sounds like everything I want from the army. I love me a grindy playstyle. Great to hear it was a positive experience!

[JackStreicher]

8 hours ago, FeralMulan said:

We definitely seem to be an attrition faction now

That makes me very sad.

However thanks for your report!

 

cheers

[Craze]

31 minutes ago, Leshoyadut said:

This sounds like everything I want from the army. I love me a grindy playstyle. Great to hear it was a positive experience!

Same here. I can't wait to grind those pesky Mortals to dust beneath our bony feet! ☠️

[AHexInScarletRed]

So, 

LoB builds a great VLoZD with Ethereal Save and more attacks but apart from that favors no particular units. 

Vyrkos increases the size of summonable Units and provides them with a 5+ Ward; it's hordes of infantry this time around. 

Kastelai with Vhordrai gives 2 units of Blood Knights 2 damage if 1 nets the necessary kill, so the old cav + chaff. 

I'm at a loss with LoN and not interested in Avengorii. More synergies for early theorycrafting? Where'd you see Black Knights shining? 

 

[FeralMulan]

3 minutes ago, AHexInScarletRed said:

Where'd you see Black Knights shining? 

 

In friendly games over a pint of beer

In all seriousness, my problem with our previous book is the same one as with this one: nothing we have really lends itself to clever combos or innovative builds. The buffs we have are restrained and directed, the playstyle clearly defined, the relics/traits a little underwhelming...

As I mentioned above, I do think that we have a lot of tools for a grindy playstyle, which I like a lot, but the heroes that are supposed to be the hammers feel a little underwhelming.

Legion of night.... I'm not sure honestly. The teleporting heroes around sounds interesting, but with no shooting or overwhelming damage magics, the question becomes, why would you?

Avengorii on the other hand I am determined to make work. I have been on the Vyrkos train since they came out, but I think there is something to our monster faction. Shame that their trait/relics are the WORST of them all. I'll play some test games with them and report back how they felt.

[JackStreicher]

I am expecting a day 1 FAQ.

RAW you can only return one Skeleton to the unit if at least one 4+ is rolled. It doesn’t say „for each 4+ return…“ it says „if you roll a 4+ return one model“

[FeralMulan]

9 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

I am expecting a day 1 FAQ.

RAW you can only return one Skeleton to the unit if at least one 4+ is rolled. It doesn’t say „for each 4+ return…“ it says „if you roll a 4+ return one model“

Read that again, mate. We fast roll to save time, but dice rolls happen one at a time:

 - For each slain model, roll a dice
 - If you roll a 4+, you return one model

Wording is perfectly fine. 

[Izotzuhure]

Vyrkos zombies with the V Lord extra attack and Velladama's spell with a corpse cart could be fun. 

[Malakithe]

2 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

That makes me very sad.

However thanks for your report!

 

cheers

Up until the last book they were still grindy. Legions of Nagash book defined attrition. This is just a more refined version of it...all death factions are basically attrition but have some elite options.

[Malakithe]

27 minutes ago, FeralMulan said:

Read that again, mate. We fast roll to save time, but dice rolls happen one at a time:

 - For each slain model, roll a dice
 - If you roll a 4+, you return one model

Wording is perfectly fine. 

I wouldnt say perfectly fine...tons of people pouring over the leaks are saying this needs to be FAQ'd