Broken Realms: Kragnos - SPOILER Discussion + Lore Summary

[Harioch]

Reading the summary, I still think there was originally going to be 5 BR books but due to Third edition coming they cut some content and put the rest in this one: mainly the Alarielle bit.

I don't know if it's good or bad in the end but this BR leaves us with major lore changes:

-Alarielle built an Oak of Age 2.0 with an Yggdrasil vibes of sort (Athel Loren bis is not a thing to me since Ghyran is basicaly a realm-span Athel Loren already).

-Grungni coming back. That's huge. But anticipated and now confirmed. Still funny to see a proud Dawi defending maybe the worst kind of Aelf at her trial like "Objection your honor !".

-I want to know what the Godrrak-Kragnos duel looked like.

-Seraphon got drakes' eggs ? Maybe they'll end up more draconic that dinosaurs in the long run of AoS ? (Could be really cool if they tied them to Dracothion now as their god like Sotek was in the World that was (I know Sotek is still a thing in AoS but I still can't see how and why))

- Morathi was on a trial ?! Like...the Mortal realms can put a God on trial ? It's ...interesting ? Ok the Celestant-Prime has the authority given by Sigmar and all but since the Pantheon is dead..Sigmar doesn't rule over the other gods so he has no authority over them...just an alliance. I don't get the trial thing. Maybe it's the summary that don't explain it well and by trial they mean just an argument between the Stormcast and Morathi weapons drawn ?

A bit sad that Exelcis wasn't destroyed (like Glymmsforge in Shyish..they resist because "Order duh") and that Slaanesh plot was a bit shoehorned there. But the other plots are interesting for the future of the setting.

[Public Universal Duardin]

Yeah, I'm on the 'there was originally 5 BR books' train too, feels almost like the Alarielle storyline should have been it's own book and just lead into BR: Kragnos. If BR: Kragnos is disjointed - which we'll know soon - I think we know why. In a way I'm a bit confused on Kragnos as he just appears to the narrative when I think most of us would agree Gordrakk was built as the big bad who'd smash the gates of Excelsis and suddenly Kragnos just arrives and yoinks it from him.

As an interesting sidenote, in the available summary there was 0 mention of Drycha who's included in one of the special boxes for BR: Kragnos. As in previous books any named characters have had some narrative importance (Lady Olynder or the Stormcast hero who got saved by Be'lakor) I'm really starting to think BR: Alarielle was cut and essentially just summarised in BR: Kragnos. Most likely Drycha played a larger role in that scrapped version, but not large enough to warrant a mention in the 'summarised' BR: Kragnos. Which, on a personal note, is quite a tragedy - there goes first mention of her in AoS lore outside of a paragraph or two in the Sylvaneth battletome.

[Sorrow]

So, I read the Broken Realms Kragnos and I have mixed feelings on the way Slaaneshi side was handled.

 

Spoiler

First, they are literal children of Slaanesh, even calling Slaanesh "their father".  So I would assume that they are mighty indeed, but the way the get killed by a family of vampire hunters is just absolutely tragicomic. Also, where are all the Hedonites? In Broken Realms short stories, we are told that Sigvald, Glutos and that named Lord of Pain are all going towards Excelsis? Nobody of them appears. Their final talk with Belakor implies once again some grand Slaaneshi scheme going on, maybe GW will follow on it, maybe not.

 

[Lord of the Isle]

Guess the Hedonites somehow found the Bretonnian wine 🍷 again!!!

[King Under the Mountain]

I definitely believe this was a 5 book series in the planning stages.

The first 3 were pretty much perfectly paced while this one kinda hopes all over the place.

One thing I would like to point out positively about the whole series is the developed lore on several of the major cities.   Anvilgard, Vindicarum, and Excelsis all had some great moments.

 

[Vasshpit]

@Sorrow Mind giving a brief but detailed description of how Gordrakk & Skragrott play into it?

[Sorrow]

10 minutes ago, Vasshpit said:

@Sorrow Mind giving a brief but detailed description of how Gordrakk & Skragrott play into it?

Gordrakk stands up to Kragnos, but gets defeated in a fight. Kragnos spares him and they all march towards the Excelsis.

Destruction side does not really factor in Slaaneshi side of story that much.

[Captain Marius]

Now i have my hands on the book and having avoided spoilers i am extremely satisfied with how it plays out. Gordrakk and Skagrott get some great screen time at last, and the duel between Gordrakk, Bigteef and Kragnos is suitably epic. Snazzgar's brutal death was a great character moment for Gordrakk. The Slaaneshi plot to seed a rift between men and aelves has some great potential, as does be'lakor chatting with the twins in the realm of Chaos. Kroak regarding Gardus as a fulcrum of the Great Plan is excellent, as is Nagash letting Teclis know its far from over. I like Kragnos leaving to smash some drakes and attracting the attention of the local Kruleboys. Morathi rejecting the judgment of the Celestant Prime as she is a god and can do what she wants cements her new role and repairs the grand alliance of Order at least for now. My absolute favourite reveal though is Grungni very strongly being implicated as having been the white dwarf all along, tying in nicely with the ongoing stories in WD and his appearance in BR Belakor. Great stuff and a solid finish to the Broken Realms series!

Edited June 5, 2021 by Captain Marius

[Feii]

4 hours ago, Sorrow said:

So, I read the Broken Realms Kragnos and I have mixed feelings on the way Slaaneshi side was handled.

 

I would bet the big thing is gonna be Tirion vs their "father". Anything that would give Slaanesh a new and functional battletome is welcome imo. 

[Feii]

On 5/30/2021 at 8:17 AM, Harioch said:

 

A bit sad that Exelcis wasn't destroyed (like Glymmsforge in Shyish..they resist because "Order duh") and that Slaanesh plot was a bit shoehorned there. But the other plots are interesting for the future of the setting.

reminds me of the 40k writing.  At least the ending of this book. Basically nothing that would matter happened or changed until the morathi trial. 

[Ganigumo]

So after reading a bunch of this, what was even the point of Kragnos?

He wakes up because of something allarielle does at the start

Was coincidentally (or was it the work of gorkamorka 😉) in the path of Gordrakk's WAAAGH!

He and Gordrakk fight, bigteef is the mvp and gets hit a bunch, but gordrakk doesn't get hit at all except at the end where kragnos knocks bigteef into some rocks and he's caught in the rock slide. Kragnos "wins" and lets him live, points to excelsis and they all go together.

Gordrakk slams the battering ram into the gates, and thanks to some seraphon magic the skull shatters. (Its not like skragrott was talking about a prophecy of a mighty orruk warlord wielding three great artifacts of power, one of which was the skull, earlier in the book)

Kragnos then charges the wall and slams into it, breaking it open (good thing he was here 😉)

He fights for a while and "Characters that actually matter" show up and redirect him.

Its not even clear what happens to Skragrott at the end, Gordrakk only gets mentioned in passing by celestant prime.

You could remove kragnos from the story, and nothing would actually change as long as the battering ram broke the walls.

Kragnos barely even feels like a destruction character, sure he's Destructive, but Destruction is typified as being like a force of nature, and Kragnos is hate filled, resentful, and outright genocidal which fits chaos better (and BoC perfectly but we don't need to go there).

[Vasshpit]

4 hours ago, Sorrow said:

Gordrakk stands up to Kragnos, but gets defeated in a fight. Kragnos spares him and they all march towards the Excelsis.

Destruction side does not really factor in Slaaneshi side of story that much.

Lame..  😒😑

But thanks. 

[Baron Klatz]

Tbf, if the big godly team-up at the end couldn't defeat the new Destruction god then Gordrakk as a demigod-tier power had no chance. At least he and the good boi cabbage give a good account of themselves to keep the title of Gork's chosen.

4 hours ago, Ganigumo said:

what was even the point of Kragnos?

Personally I just see him as post-game content to set up the sequel. Belakor was the actually final boss but now the stage is set for Kragnos to keep rampaging and the Slaanesh champions to continue playing their hands as the new edition focuses more on Excelsis and the Realm of Beasts as it was Glymmsforge and the Realm of Death before and Hammerhal and the Realm of Fire at the start.

The missing Slaanesh champions are odd though. I imagine since they were teased at the beginning they got waylaid by all the crazy follow-up stuff that came after like the exploding realmgates, increased Seraphon activity, Death invasions trying to spread the Shyish Nadir and the life magic flood soon after.

On 5/29/2021 at 11:17 PM, Harioch said:

 (Athel Loren bis is not a thing to me since Ghyran is basicaly a realm-span Athel Loren already).

Nor should it be. Sprues and Brews did exaggerate a bit. Alarielle just remarked the purified Realm of Life Reminded her of Loren as it did in the beginning. Nothing about a "rebirth"(which would be silly, like a king of all the oceans being happy to get a lake back )

On 5/29/2021 at 11:17 PM, Harioch said:

Alarielle built an Oak of Age 2.0 with an Yggdrasil vibes of sort 

This is the important part. A cosmic yggsdrasil of the Realms is such an amazing glow up from when we first saw the poor thing toppled over and growing horizontally in Ghyran with 2015's "Quest for Ghal Maraz" Realmgate Wars campaign.

Bonus points all those mythical lands of flying mountains and arctic naturelands where helpful frost jotunn reside are now up for grabs for new Sylvaneth-allied tree cities with Nurgle pushed back.

[Ganigumo]

1 hour ago, Baron Klatz said:

Tbf, if the big godly team-up at the end couldn't defeat the new Destruction god then Gordrakk as a demigod-tier power had no chance. At least he and the good boi cabbage give a good account of themselves to keep the title of Gork's chosen.

Personally I just see him as post-game content to set up the sequel. Belakor was the actually final boss but now the stage is set for Kragnos to keep rampaging and the Slaanesh champions to continue playing their hands as the new edition focuses more on Excelsis and the Realm of Beasts as it was Glymmsforge and the Realm of Death before and Hammerhal and the Realm of Fire at the start.

We have literally no frame of reference through which we could power scale these characters, plus given how Waaagh! energy works it becomes even harder, and would easily provide a method to scale Gordrakk up had they wanted to write the story that way. I'm not fond of how god level characters are portrayed either, they've been writing them in a way that makes anyone that's not a god a supporting character by default.

 

Also my comment about why we even needed kragnos was more aimed at the character, rather than the book itself. Despite being the book's namesake, and taking up a big chunk of space, the narrative doesn't actually need him. As far as I can tell there are only two things he contributed:

1. God level power scaling (which I mentioned above)
2. The battering ram was surprisingly useless for such a long hanging plot thread

If I was editing this as a story (not as a medium to sell models), My first question would be why is Kragnos necessary for the story? And the honest answer is he isn't.

An unnecessary character is any character who doesn't advance the plot of the story. Kragnos has 2 major parts in the book, the first being the battle with Gordrakk (which while fitting for the characters it does nothing for the plot) and the other is breaking the walls of excelsis which does advance the plot, but the plot already had a tool in place for that purpose and so it retroactively makes Gordrakk getting hammergord's skull pointless to justify Kragnos' inclusion.

[Captain Marius]

The story makes some interesting points about the power of the Waaagh i think. Firstly Gordrakk ignores Skagrotts prophecy and kills the shaman who relays it, choosing to go straight for Excelsis rather than find the two other artefacts he needs, one of which would make him even more resistant to damage. By choosing only brutality and rejecting kunnin, Gordrakk is set up to fail, first against Kragnos, then again at the Siege. Hopefully he will learn some kind of lesson and look for a way to beat Kragnos, before he gets back to hunting Sigmar.

The second idea i liked was Kroak's utter ruthlessness. He plans for the horde to enter the city as the power of the Waaagh will be split among the city streets, giving the defenders a chance where a battle outside the gates would been a guaranteed defeat. Kroaks wards are also responsible for Hammergord breaking, which i think is a fair trade off.

As for Kragnos' narrative purpose, i think its quite straightforward he represents the unpredictable impact of life ascendant after the soul wars, throwing a spanner into the established narrative and being set up to have an even greater impact in the Era of the Beast.

[The Brotherhood of Necros]

I’ve been a staunch advocate of the series and have overall loved it, but this entry felt by far the weakest for me, which was a shame given how much I love Kroak.

I’m still processing it but I think my biggest gripes:

— Why did Kragnos actually spare Gordrakk? From what I could tell, there was nothing in his character or backstory about offering mercy to worthy opponents. He indiscriminately killed and killed for hundreds of years before before being tricked into his prison, and actively pursued a genocidal war with the drakes simply because he wanted to prove he could defeat them — to the extent that he got his army of closest centaur friends all slain in a final battle with them. In the fight against Gordrakk, he got the upper hand; for him to just turn away and grunt towards Exelcis showed mercy, restraint and/or rationale that I just didn’t get from his story. As a result, it felt forced and took me out of the story. And because of that, I began to question everyone’s motives and now they were being portrayed. 

— Why is Kroak so weak now? I’m actually feeling quite sad in terms of his character and what has happened to him. Reading about his backstory in the Old World used to give me goosebumps as a child. The mystery surrounding this first amongst Slann. A being who has endured the presence of the Old Ones themselves — and been personally taught by them. We’re told he was spawned, along with his peers of the First Spawning, to move the actual orbit of the Old World.

And the few paragraphs we get that describe his defence of Itza remain some of my favourite WH lore ever written — reality-bending feats of geomancy as he drags mountains, forces rivers, pulls comets and fireballs from the sky.  I honestly find them so moving, not just because they show the full power of Kroak as he was when he was alive, but because we see him having to draw on that power. That’s how high the stakes are, this bloated, largely comatose amphibian with the power to shift the planet roused to desperate action by the functionally endless hordes of daemons engulfing the city... And even in death, his spirit banished that horde and against all odds wins. (The battle, if not the war...)

I know his powers diminished after that as a relic-priest, but we still see a glimpse of what he’s capable of again in the End Times, when he envelops dozens of monuments, temple-pyramids and mile-long stretches of jungle beneath mystic shields before taking off with them into the apocalyptic sky...

From what I understand, his condition (death!) has actually supposed to have ‘improved’ since we hit AoS, something to do with Dracothion’s breath or the celestial magic of Azyr giving him a less than dead semblance after all these millennia (and an in-game explanation for how he is more active now)? 🤷🏼‍♂️

But these latest stories just don’t reflect that. He’s chucking magic missiles at Kragnos like any old slann. All the primordial power, the majesty and mystery that I loved so much, seems to have gone out of his character. I wish they had preserved him as he was — a genuine relic from the World That Was, sequestered away in the depths of an ancient starship. Inscrutable, unknowable, ever-watching. Some new-to-AoS living slann could have taken the limelight (I loved the slann mobilising in the Be’lakor book!)

You could still have had Kroak appearing to Gardus, moving his pawns of order around in that dreamy out-of-body scene — and it would have been all the more awesome to see him getting involved in this rare way. (“Wow, the stakes must be high if Kroak is appearing like this!”) But new Seraphon poster-slann Toady McToadface of the third spawning could have helped to defend Excelsis, and when they realise that fate is moving against them, Kroak himself could have raised a mummified arm from the bowels of his tomb-ship and moved a mountain or raised the sea or, as they even suggest in the story, seal the realmgates from Ghur to contain the threat. That would have shown me how truly committed to the Great Plan they were (and how cold/reptilian when it comes to following that Plan to the word). It would have shown me his power. It would have shown me how great the threat of Kragnos was and helped me to get that from the book, too. 

TLDR: I’m sad about action-hero Kroak. I miss inscrutable relic-priest Kroak. 

Edited June 6, 2021 by The Brotherhood of Necros

[MitGas]

1 hour ago, The Brotherhood of Necros said:

TLDR: I’m sad about action-hero Kroak. I miss inscrutable relic-priest Kroak. 

I don't wanna be a negative nancy ALL the time but IMO the writing quality directly related to battletomes and short stories has declined - I don't read enough of the books but I've been told that some are indeed very well written (I think one about Gloomspite is said to be very good). Old Warhammer lore often felt deeper and darker. I'm not necessarily suggesting that all new fluff is bad but to me it feels like they still need to settle in this new world. Also, I've never been a big proponent of explaining everything in detail either, especially when it comes to mythical figures. Lots of stuff in the Horus Heresy seemed cooler to me when I didn't see how stupid, petty and childish all those guys were. 

I'd also like to have the story revolve more around mortals. It's cool to see glimpses of the pantheon but I feel like storytelling should be centered around mortals in the mortal realms.

[King Under the Mountain]

34 minutes ago, MitGas said:

I'd also like to have the story revolve more around mortals. It's cool to see glimpses of the pantheon but I feel like storytelling should be centered around mortals in the mortal realms.

I agree for the most part.  I actually like seeing the gods but we 100% need some more mortal heroes to focus on to balance things out.  That is one thing that AoS has been lacking story wise. 

[Baron Klatz]

I mean we did just get new mortal heroes with the witch hunters & Lumineth twins, a good 1/3rd of AoS stories focus on them and in Broken Realms quite a few get good side focus and shout-outs to, especially stuff involving the cities or when the Kharadron fleets stopped both the Mortarch and Belakor in Chamon.

That's the thing though, no matter how you write them they're Gods. Eternal reality-warpers that shape entire realms, create entire civilizations and aren't even wholly there but using aspect avatars to interact with reality.

Mortals can never be made to balance that out, it's like balancing out a mountain with rocks. You'd need thousands to accomplish what it can do and once it moves all those rocks turn to dust.(and i'd have it no other way, that's what Gods should be and the over-the-top cosmic bedrock AoS is built on to keep changing up the setting and it's races)

It makes me interested what'll happen to the Witch Hunters. Malign Portents lasted 200 years(edit: 100-200 years depending on source) and 3.0 is already hinting at a big timeskip. They won't last very long Unless we finally get Soulbound written into the stories which would solve a lot of mortality problems and keep the narrative flowing along at that pace.

16 hours ago, Captain Marius said:

Firstly Gordrakk ignores Skagrotts prophecy and kills the shaman who relays it, choosing to go straight for Excelsis rather than find the two other artefacts he needs, one of which would make him even more resistant to damage. By choosing only brutality and rejecting kunnin, Gordrakk is set up to fail

This is an excellent point!

That does make it feel why Kragnos can actually push Destruction to be legitimate threats to the other Grand Alliances as instead of fumbling their goals because they're focused on one of the two traits from Gorkamorka now we got Kragnos as a whole and very dangerous entity that can push the kunnin' and brutal at once.

Edited June 6, 2021 by Baron Klatz

[Vasshpit]

Gordrakk was portrayed as not being the typical "hulk smash", tunnel visioned orruk, although more than capable of unleashing it when needed. His whole build up over the last year or so just seems meaningless now. Is what it is...

I also do feel that he would have fought to the death before kneeling to anyone, but whatever. I hope that sparing the life of "the warboss of warbosses" has greater consequences in store. 

Are the other two prophecieded artifacts that were mentioned named at all? The crown of Azhag by chance?... hmmm?

Is it at all touched upon how Gorkamorka views Kraggy at all?

I think there's something fishy going on pertaining to pony boi. 🤔 We'll see. 

Edited June 6, 2021 by Vasshpit

[Baron Klatz]

48 minutes ago, Vasshpit said:

Are the other two prophecieded artifacts that were mentioned named at all? The crown of Azhag by chance?... hmmm?

So instead of-

49 minutes ago, Vasshpit said:

I also do feel that he would have fought to the death before kneeling to anyone,

You meant to say-

50 minutes ago, Vasshpit said:

I also do feel that he would have fought anyone and thus kneeled to Death. (Praise Nagash)

The Death god would welcome such a potent servant from Gorkamorka though to put his Soulblights back in line.

But yeah, he can go get those artifacts now to reboot himself (and model) into a new champion of the true Destruction god. I imagine a crown made of fragments of Gorkamorka's tooth(the guy lost those things all over the realms bringing things to life) and something to connect to the Bonesplitterz like a maul-scepter made from Shattatusk's (Gorkamorka's God-beast mount whose lost tusk became a glacier) magic bone ice.

[HorticulusTGA]

On 6/5/2021 at 8:52 PM, Captain Marius said:

Now i have my hands on the book and having avoided spoilers i am extremely satisfied with how it plays out. Gordrakk and Skagrott get some great screen time at last, and the duel between Gordrakk, Bigteef and Kragnos is suitably epic. Snazzgar's brutal death was a great character moment for Gordrakk. The Slaaneshi plot to seed a rift between men and aelves has some great potential, as does be'lakor chatting with the twins in the realm of Chaos. Kroak regarding Gardus as a fulcrum of the Great Plan is excellent, as is Nagash letting Teclis know its far from over. I like Kragnos leaving to smash some drakes and attracting the attention of the local Kruleboys. Morathi rejecting the judgment of the Celestant Prime as she is a god and can do what she wants cements her new role and repairs the grand alliance of Order at least for now. My absolute favourite reveal though is Grungni very strongly being implicated as having been the white dwarf all along, tying in nicely with the ongoing stories in WD and his appearance in BR Belakor. Great stuff and a solid finish to the Broken Realms series!

You and @Baron Klatz are quite right and the Broken Realms narrative arc was really well handed IMO (by the four books, the free stories and the five BL shorts). And BR : Kragnos had great moments (tie-in with many plot lines, the persecutions of the Aelves, the "worldbuiling" around Kragnos and Ghur, the various strategies of Waaagh Gordrakk to attack Excelsis with false mercenaries, sea-borne ships and gargants, Troggoth human shields, etc.).

But I can only concur with others in the thread that there was some weak spots in the story too, mainly how some characters' power level were handed. @The Brotherhood of Necros really nailed it for Kroak (I just re-read the 6th ed. Army Book chapter about The Fall ❤️ ). And even if having the focus shifts from Gods, Daemons, Monsters and "common" humans (the Ven Denst) was great, I think the Newborn as a formidable force of Chaos and inheritor of a god had an underserving story line... 

So I agree : where were Sigvald and the Palanquin guy ? What was the point of Hammergrod and Gordrakk defeat against Kragnos then some Liberators ? Kroak and Morathi-Khaine pulling a "Tzeentch Illusion to get Sigmar to throw Ghal Maraz in a Chaos Portal" trick to redirect Kragnos was cheap... (it was hinted in the Kroak reveal trailer, but still...). They could just have given a reason for Kroak NOT doing another spell to emprison him again (I guess Dracothion wasn't around this time ?).

Anyway, I'm looking forward for the Era Of The Beasts fluff, and my main grip with BR : Kragnos only was : WHERE ARE THE YEARS OLD EXCELSIS ARTWORKS, GW ?? 

[HorticulusTGA]

5 hours ago, Baron Klatz said:

Malign Portents lasted 200 years and 3.0 is already hinting at a big timeskip.

Apparently not : GW hinted at the lore being slightly reworked, and BR Kragnos confirmed again that the Age of Chaos lasted around 500 years (that was already known and confirmed) but specified that the time during the Realmgate Wars and the end of the Soul Wars (so including the Season Of War and the Time Of Tribulation) was like 100-150 years (see BR : Kragnos, page 4, about the Dirgehorn).

We know Kragnos will come back with Kruleboyz forces to Thondia soon, and the "Cursed Skies + return of Grungni" plot line at the end of Broken Realms directly ties-in with the deployment of the Thuderstrikes Hosts SCE, so no big time skip here either. 

[Envyus]

Feel you guys are forgetting that Kragnos is near immune to magic. Which is why Kroak could not do as much.

Also Kragnos did not spare Gordrakk on his own, Skragrott distracted him first so he calmed down. Then he seemed to get insight they wanted the same thing.

[Enoby]

I have really enjoyed the BR lore up to now, but I can't help but be a little upset at the Slaanesh storyline. It felt like they just rushed it, and in turn I think the entire narrative is weaker for it.

To show what I mean:

- Morathi becomes a god but there's a cost - a shard of Slaanesh has broken free

- This shard is so powerful that all of the Hedonites come to see it, and some die simply by looking at it

- The shard splits in two, revealing the two new children of Slaanesh

- The very first thing they do, they fail at, getting killed by two normal mortal witch hunters who weren't even especially prepared for them

It just seems... very poor writing?