The Lumienth waste design space

[Frowny]

This isn't to say they aren't an interesting, good and/or engaging. There are certainly cool ideas built into them, but from a design standpoint, they feel lazy, and a bit all over the place. They have tons of interesting themes, but somehow struggle to flesh out none of them, while simultaneously burning up interesting future designs. 

Magic the gathering has become increasingly aware of this in their multiyear history, as each card means they can't easily print another without evaluating it against others. Similarly, every mechanic must be different from others or it will start to feel same-y. Indeed they are very aware of this and try to reuse existing mechanics or cards when possible to preserve future space. 

So to summarize some of the design space the Lumineth have used (and my thoughts on it)

High-martial prowess rank and file units- Cool! I'm in. Kinda overlaps already with the Ossiarch Bonereapers in a different faction, and with freeguild, who gain bonuses for staying still from their general. But either way, this is cool and interesting. Takes away future ability to do something similar, for example if they ever make a full freeguild type faction, but it is certainly reasonable to use it here. 

Every unit is a wizard- Also cool, also interesting. Feels like a bit of a stretch though. I know elves are certainly magical but why are they more magical than Tzeentch, the god of magic himself? This decision also cheapens all future wizards-as-units in the future, and makes it way way harder to release any ' I am very magical' armies. Moreover, if this is going to be their main thing, then why also the martial mastery thing?

Elemental Themed subfactions-  Also cool and interesting but this could have been an entire set of factions, one for each element ala Idoneth deepkin for water. Alternatively, I would love a  an elemental type faction full of natural magic homed within destruction. It also takes up territory for future realm-related releases. What does it mean to be from Chamon if there is already going to be a 'fire temple' within Hysh to compliment the alirith? Feels unnecessary but also a bit confusing thematically with how the realms work. 

Animal Themed units- Nobody really likes the whole cow thing, and I agree it feels out of place. This feels like a better stand alone army with different animal themed or worshiping units homed within destruction or maybe as a cool expansion/extension of beasts of chaos. Why do the alirith worship cows? why is every beastman a variation on a goat? I think there is space for cool panther infiltrators or elephant or rhino heavy infantry? There are tons of cool possibilities here, but this one decision eats a ton of that design space.

Expendable Resources- aetherquartz of the lumineth feel frustratingly similar to the aethergold of the Kharadron.  Games are defined by their mechanics, which therefore exist to builds the narrative. For the lumineth, this does not feel like it serves a role. Unlike warpstone and the skaven (super cool OD on magic and blow yourself up resource) or the aethergold of the kharadron (establishes them as traders/pirates), Aetherquartz does neither of these things, instead adding power but no narrative or character. Like why are they actually collecting the stuff? I'm sure they wrote a fluff bit about it, but does that matter? I thought they were martial ruler wizard elemental animal worshipers, not collectors. Alternatively, if they wanted that feel from a narrative point, they could have saved design space and literally copied the same mechanics and naming from kharadron/aethergold it would be just as cool and interesting. +1 to hit is quite similar to rerolling hits in concept, and both offer rerolling armor. You could even give kharadron the useless +1 cast and it wouldn't affect balance (although obviously they couldn't really use it). There is nothing wrong with actually duplicating a mechanic if it serves a role.  

I love your games GW, but please keep enough space for yourself to actually design one in 20 years, when I'm hopefully still seeing cool new ideas. 

[Icegoat]

You clearly never played fantasy. High elves were the exact same masters of all, able to take in any army and insta win.  perks beyond all perks master wizards with always strike first 3 rank deep basic spearman. They are always seriously individually OP. 

And now their age old weakness t3 means nothing in aos stats prepare to see them dominate from now on. 

[LuminethMage]

Sorry, @Frowny but this looks really lazy, like you are writing a critique without even having made the attempt to read through the Battletome or think about why the things your are seeing critically are there.

They aren’t worshipping cows, they aren’t just “collecting” Aetherquartz- and there isn’t just “a bit of fluff” about it in the book, it’s central to what they are, and especially have been. And this goes on for almost everything you write about (why do they have Wizard in every unit etc.)

I mean, of course you can still personally find elements  problematic, or stealing something from other factions etc., but it would have been great to at least somewhat familiarize yourself with the Lumineth and probably HE too. That would make for a more interesting discussion. 

[Frowny]

I think you are mistaking the direction of my thoughts- I am thinking about the design of the rules, not of the lore. 

Warhammer starts first and a foremost as a game. By extension, the rules should speak for themselves. You don't need to read the 'lore' of the Settlers of Catan universe to know it revolves around building and trading- The rules make that obvious, and the game flows from the rules. Once you set up the island and see the cards with bricks and sheep on them, you get it. You understand the universe, without reading pages of lore or dedicated novels.

Also, what do you mean by 'have been'? The book was released 6 months ago. It isn't like there is some long history of 'them being that way', except in the lore, that GW themselves wrote, when they released the book, 6 months ago. If you are referring to the high elves, then yes, there is some elements of them in the lumineth, notably the martial history and magic use, but some of it is all AoS (elemental side, or the aetherquarts, for example) 

Similarly, you are underestimating the power of GW. They write BOTH the rules and the lore. They can write it however they want. For example, instead of the alirith spirits of the mountain being animalistic, they could have been elemental (for example, just replace the head with a crystalline prism or something). Now you aren't eating into the design space for future animal based releases, but keep the elemental aspect. As one of many possible examples.

In contrast, a really good set of rules, (at least regarding design, power level aside) is for the idoneth deepkin- You read the rules for tides, and then they name them 'ebb tide' etc. and it clicks. It feels like tides. They come in and out and then repeat. And then you see the characters that interact with it at different stages. It all makes sense, as a single idea, and ends up augmenting their eel riders, giant turtles, or even just the shells on their basic infantry. Well done! I don't need to read every page of lore, because it just fits. I Get It. 

Aethergold for Khardaron is similar. It fits with everything I know about pirates- they like gold. It also fits with how money works, where you can spend it for some value now. Finally, the -1 bravery there fits thematically, again with both how pirates and money work, you are sad after you spend it. It clicks. It also matches what I know about dwarves (who also usually like gold). And then I see a pirate dwarf in a skyship it all just clicks. I Get It.

Do Lumineth have that click? For me personally, no. But what's worse, they way they are designed gets in the way of several future ideas that might. 

Megagargants also don't really do it for me as design either, mostly just using the bully idea from ogors to count for 10 on objectives. In their defense though, ironically they don't take up much design space about it. 

 

 

[Baron Klatz]

3 hours ago, Frowny said:

Animal Themed units- Nobody really likes the whole cow thing, and I agree it feels out of place. This feels like a better stand alone army with different animal themed or worshiping units homed within destruction or maybe as a cool expansion/extension of beasts of chaos. Why do the alirith worship cows? why is every beastman a variation on a goat? I think there is space for cool panther infiltrators or elephant or rhino heavy infantry? There are tons of cool possibilities here, but this one decision eats a ton of that design space.

I call bull with this complaint(pun intended).

There's tons of people who love the Lumineth "battle-cattle" and it fits with their realm worship aesthetic of communing with nature and it's many creatures in the realm of light. Here very much because of the immortal mountain aurochs their temples live in harmony with.

As the Lumineth move away from the standard infantry and get more realm-spirit temples like the wind foxes, river and zenith cloud creatures the animal motif will go much better together that the Lumineth are all about harmonizing with nature. The fleshier side where-as Sylvaneth are the barkier side of it. It's the theme of Order that they each co-exist in their home realms, be it the Seraphon and the stars of Azyr or the Fyreslayers and the flames of Aqshy.

As for Brayherds they already explore those directions in the lore. Their battletome mentions shark & mammoth hybrid brayherds that stalk the wilds of ghur while Tzaangors gave us bird types already.

More, one of their heroes that gets focus is a albino lion-headed beastlord that lives in the realm of death and goes around to eats souls not claimed by Nagash.

https://ageofsigmar.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ghosteater

Given your complaint if anything the Lumineth taking that cliche'd design cue, goats & cattle, away from beastkin is a good thing as it makes them explore elsewhere for new designs while the old ones can serve as a ying-yang to the Lumineth's divine bulls with their corrupted ones.

Edit: I missed the "why be from Aqshy if there's already a fire temple in Hysh" on the elements part.

That actually gives them more reason to visit a realm and settle there. The Lumineth are about harmony amd calm minds, a fire temple would mean they'd make pilgrimages to that realm to aid the fire spirits in burning brighter while controlling their passions so they don't burn themselves out.

We see this already with the Alarith going to Beastgrave to calm the sentient mountain there as they feel it's pain. This has occurred in other elemental armies as well like with Fyreslayers going to other realm mountains & volcanoes to gather resources, worship their fiery gods or learn new trades like those in Hysh forging from moonlight and Sylvaneth go to the forests throughout the realms for different reasons like trying to bring life to the haunted ones in Shyish or helping the iron oaks to flourish naturally in Chamon so their allies can use them as forts and safe havens without harming them.

Edited October 24, 2020 by Baron Klatz

[Icarion]

Yeah, I have to call bull (pun definitely intended) on this topic. 

Everything but one feature* of the Lumineth is rooted in the traditional High Elf Army from warhammer fantasy, the army which GW and Phil Kelly have said ad nauseum was their intent to reimagine for the Age of Sigmar setting. 

In order:

Elves in warhammer have always had a martial focus. This army isnt coopting some other factions identity, it is reclaiming its own heritage from basically 6th-8th edition High Elves.

High Elves in warhammer were always magic focused, Teclis in particular. From both Gav Thorpe (who wrote a great deal of Old world Elf lore) and Phil Kelly who wrote the Lumineth Lore and is responsible for a great deal of Age of Sigmars lore, Elves have always been magically competent, even basic non wizard characters in lore have been able to do basic magic like starting a fire with a word. The Lumineth Magic focus has its roots there, but even more from the fact that Teclis is the AOS god of Magic, and this is HIS faction. Tzeentch is the God or sorcery and deception, but from the Old world to AOS, Teclis has been the one teaching humans magic. From the onset of AOS lore (before the lumineth were created one would assume) GW set up teclis as the Pantheons god of magic, and so honestly, if any order faction was going to have a magic focus, it would be ludicrous if it were not Teclis' own.

Elemental themed magic was always a core part of the Lore of High Magic from old world High elves, which again Lumineth are the reincarnation of. In this case though, GW took a minor aspect of their magic/culture and expanded it into something all encompassing and new, a great reimagining while keeping true to the old.

Animal themed units were always a High elf feature, from phoenix centric units, to Dragon centric units, to Lion centric unit.

*The one area where I will give you that Lumineth have reached outside their traditional wheelhouse is with a resource mechanic.

Aetherquartz has no precedent in the old High Elves faction, and I feel it didn't really need to be in this army.  It adds a level of resource management and special rules bloat to an already complicated/special rule heavy army.

 

 

[OkayestDM]

2 hours ago, Frowny said:

High-martial prowess rank and file units- . . .

This is one of the things I love about them from a design standpoint. They are a defensive army that is very efficient at killing their opponent. Bonereapers are mostly an attrition army - very hard to put down and slowly but relentlessly whittling your forces away.  Lumineth are a bit more equalized in design, they can take a punch, but are also deadly in return. The army is very much a balancing act, which seems appropriate given their lore.

2 hours ago, Frowny said:

Every unit is a wizard-  . . .

I'm not too fussed abut this one either way.I find it a bit tedious that I have to remember a spell for most of my units, but it does make sense to me that Teclis would prioritize thisin his troops. I don't compare the magic dispensation for units in the Lumineth to that in Tzeentch because they operate on different principles. For Teclis, it's a fundamental power that all of his warriors should have. For Tzeentch, it's a shiny bauble to be awarded to some, denied to others, and used to tempt the rest - only the most interesting people should be allowed to play with his fire. I also don't think that it cheapens wizard units in other armies, it's merely the natural progression of a theme that has existed for a while now, and one that I think most folks saw coming.

2 hours ago, Frowny said:

Elemental Themed subfactions- . . .

Sure, I guess I see where you're coming from on this one, but I feel that it's more a matter of personal taste than actual limiting of design space. Speaking specifically to the water element theme, they specifically chose the river. This still leaves elements like oceans, steam, rain, ice, snow, storms, etc available to them. Frankly, several of these are already in use as themes or elements on other factions and the design space doesn't feel all that crowded to me yet.

2 hours ago, Frowny said:

Animal Themed units-  . . .

This one, admittedly, really threw me.  Not so much the fact that animals were incorporated as a theme - hell I've never even played WFB and I know that it was a major part of the High Elf asthetic - but more that they felt cows (yaks, whatever) was the right one to lead off with. I've since learned to embrace the decision, and actually really enjoy the lore reasons behind the design choices , but I personally feel it was one of the weaker design choices. That said, I'm cautiously optimistic that they couldn't throw me another design curve-ball as big a Aelf cowboys, and look forward to what future themes they will add. As to this interfering with other design space, I'm inclined to disagree with that. Generic human-looking soldiers populate the entire game (actual humans, loads of different aelves, stormcast, vampires, zombies) and I don't feel for a moment that any of that has grown stale. There's still plenty of room for unique design even within the same framework.

3 hours ago, Frowny said:

Expendable Resources- . . .

Here I'm more in agreement with you. Aetherquartz is just Aethergold copy-pasted onto the Lumineth. I like the inclusion of aetherquartz as it's a fundamental part of the Lumineth society now, but I wish they had designed the mechanic so that it was unique to the faction rather than a carbon copy of something we have in another army.  To me, it cheapens the experience for both factions.  I was honestly far more pleased with the use of stances in the allegiance abilities and wish they had leaned more heavily in that direction.

[Kadeton]

4 hours ago, Frowny said:

High-martial prowess rank and file units

I don't think this actually reduces the potential design space in the way you're thinking. For starters, there are really only two modes for rank and file: massed, or elite. Every army is going to have one or the other or both.

Additionally, the Lumineth being universally competent shouldn't step on the toes of future Cities releases (if there are any) - if anything, it's an excellent distinction between army styles. The Cities troops shouldn't be anywhere near as competent as the Lumineth at base level, but they should benefit much more from their leaders and command synergies. That way, Lumineth can feel strong because they're extremely well trained and naturally talented, while the Cities troops can feel strong because they're ordinary people who are inspired to greatness.

4 hours ago, Frowny said:

Every unit is a wizard

I don't get how they're "more magical" than Tzeentch armies, honestly. Pretty much every unit in a Tzeentch army is a wizard too. Yeah, Teclis is a better caster... because he's an actual god. If Tzeentch themselves showed up on the battlefield in person, I'd expect them to blow Teclis out of the water in a purely magical duel. Also, all those wizard units casting spells becomes a real liability when going up against a Tzeentch army, so the Lumineth end up feeling like an army that relies heavily on magic while the Tzeentch army feels like an army that feeds on magic, which is exactly as it should be.

Neither magical nor martial mastery is the Lumineth's "main thing" - the combination of the two is their thing. That's their unique niche within the overall design space.

4 hours ago, Frowny said:

Elemental Themed subfactions

Animal Themed units

I don't see "animal themes" as represented in any way by the Lumineth rules, so it feels like you're expanding the discussion into aesthetics without any reference to game design here. The only animals used in the model designs are one-for-one mapped to their elemental temples, so from a rules perspective we can talk about them in the same breath, and they don't interfere with the design space of the Beastmen in any way.

One area where I do feel the Lumineth are too limited compared to other armies (and this does tie in to your point about the elemental themes) - they are entirely Hyshian. Most other armies can be themed to come from any of the Mortal Realms, and I think that's a great strength. With the Lumineth (and the rumoured Umbraneth) they're going in a very different direction, and it's one that I think genuinely does put unnecessary restrictions on their design choices.

4 hours ago, Frowny said:

Expendable Resources

I totally agree with you on this one. Aetherquartz may or may not have needed representation in the Lumineth rules (personally I think we'll see a lot more "expendable resource" mechanics in future army releases, and it's a very conscious design choice to keep adding these types of systems) but it could definitely have just used an identical mechanic to Aethergold. Or, it could have used a completely separate unique mechanic. There was no need to come up with a system that was very nearly, but not quite, identical.

2 hours ago, Frowny said:

Warhammer starts first and a foremost as a game.

Sadly, this is totally wrong. It might be nice if AoS was first and foremost a game, but it's not. We know (from GW game developers describing the internal process) that the people who write the rules actually come in quite close to the end of the chain, long after the lore and concept art is established.

So for a release like the Lumineth, the game designers don't get to look at the current state of the game and say "Hey, it seems like there's design space for an all-elite, elemental-themed magical faction that would fit a good niche alongside the existing armies. Let's make that happen!" Instead, the lore writers come to them and say "These are the Lumineth. They're super-skilled magical elves who venerate bestial elemental spirits - see the cow hats? - and rely heavily on their realmstone to boost their magic powers and dampen their emotions. Make up some rules which represent that."

It doesn't really matter whether we (the community) think GW should work rules-first, because they've made it abundantly clear they're not going to.

[MitGas]

They get to be OP cause else few people would play puny goody two-shoes Aelfs! 😁

That they're in some ways better at magic than Tzeentch is total bullcrap though (where our basic units can't take normal spells anymore and Lumineth can) and really doesn't fit the background. Then again they're also deadlier than Chaos Warriors (hell, even Gobbo Stabbas are...), so it just shows that some writers really don't understand their own material. It's like that pathetic (sorry, there's no other word for that) Phil Kelly Chaos codex in 40k all over again - we can only hope that the next revisions will fix some of the more problematic units and rules for quite a few armies.

My biggest wish is actually that they introduce more different looking stuff into ALL armies though. I think what they've (lumineth) got so far is a solid base. But when I think of them or of Fyreslayers and Ironjawz, a bit more visual diversity would be cool. At least I liked when armies don't all look the same.... and with 3d sculpting, it feels like copy/paste actually became more pronounced than when we had identical minis but they didn't reuse parts.

[Icegoat]

Only thing I can say about lumineth is that yes there has been a pandemic and maybe that's the reason but I dont know of anyone who has taken them on as a collectable force. 

I've had more than one discussion about cows and especially the cow heads on top of the stoneguard. I seriously truly believe if these guys helmets were different I know at least 2 people who would have collected them. As is the best units are the wardens and the riders which are very similar to just old high elves. 

The rest I think was too out there and has not been embraced by as many people as maybe it should have. Especially old high elf players many of whom are now waiting for the tyrion side to release instead.

Also lack of interesting heroes will kill any range.

[Baron Klatz]

3 hours ago, Icegoat said:

I seriously truly believe if these guys helmets were different I know at least 2 people who would have collected them. As is the best units are the wardens and the riders

Why don't they just head swap then? I prefer the tall horn helms as they stand-out but some kitbashed cavalry helm wouldn't go amiss on them.

3 hours ago, Icegoat said:

Also lack of interesting heroes will kill any range.

I don't think you can get more interesting than a God, a living suit of armor, a priestess that kills you with depression and a mage riding flying rocks.

[zilberfrid]

I feel one of the weakpoints of AoS is reinventing the wheel every time.

Instead of wasted design space, I see opportunities to unify in-game results in the rules.

Not everything about every faction needs to be unique. No reason why other rank and file units can't use the exact same mechanics as Lumineth.

[Saturmorn Carvilli]

4 hours ago, Icegoat said:

I seriously truly believe if these guys helmets were different I know at least 2 people who would have collected them.

And now you know of at least one person that wouldn't have collected them if they didn't have the helmets they have.  So I guess hypothetically GW loss a player in your experience.  However, my internet experience had been it takes a good dozen hypothetical players or more to equal one actually player. Since it is really easy say you'll do something more or less anonymously to a group of mostly strangers.  The spoiler has most of my army.

Spoiler

So I think GW will be okay.  Especially since head swaps are among the easiest kitbashing elements possible.  So I serious truly believe those two people weren't that interested in collecting them.  So forgive me if I doubt the validity of your claim.  It sounds far more like the usual internet sound and fury trying to add more weight to their complaints than truth.

Edited October 24, 2020 by Saturmorn Carvilli

[Galas]

The only thing I agree is with the Aetherquartz. I don't really think it works for them and is a lazy copypaste.

 

I like their morale mechanics, and the implementation of a "morale mage". The elemental and animal themes... eeh... I don't know. They are a slighly inspiration, yeah, cow helmets and those warriors are from the "earth" element but you don't see any kind of indication that they are part of the mountain spirit religion. If GW would release tomorrow a earth themed army with earth elementals and things like that I wouldnt step on the toes of Lumineth. 

 

And I believe thats a good thing. Thats how you make a believable race and faction, giving it inspirations and background without being too obvious. In India cows are sacred animals but that doesnt mean everybody wears Cow-themed clothes. The Lumineth have a religion based around elemental spirits but that doesnt mean they are literally elemental-benders from Avatar and are based around the elements, the same goes for the Cow and other future animals.

Edited October 24, 2020 by Galas

[Popisdead]

I guess,.. it's important you shared.  

On 10/23/2020 at 4:39 PM, Frowny said:

I love your games IKEA, but please keep enough space for yourself to actually design one in 20 years, when I'm hopefully still seeing cool new ideas. 

Fixed that for you.

Maybe,.. it doesn't really matter.  

[Greybeard86]

Perhaps the title is a bit too aggro inducing? I don't shy away from criticism, but still.

[Ravenborn]

You don’t like them, and GW shouldn’t make stuff that isn’t intended for you.

 

They made them for high elf players, who finally have a viable replacement after years of banishment from the game. Just be happy for someone else’s win, and move on. 

Edited October 26, 2020 by Ravenborn

[Nos]

On 10/24/2020 at 5:46 AM, Kadeton said:

I don't think this actually reduces the potential design space in the way you're thinking. For starters, there are really only two modes for rank and file: massed, or elite. Every army is going to have one or the other or both.

Additionally, the Lumineth being universally competent shouldn't step on the toes of future Cities releases (if there are any) - if anything, it's an excellent distinction between army styles. The Cities troops shouldn't be anywhere near as competent as the Lumineth at base level, but they should benefit much more from their leaders and command synergies. That way, Lumineth can feel strong because they're extremely well trained and naturally talented, while the Cities troops can feel strong because they're ordinary people who are inspired to greatness.

I don't get how they're "more magical" than Tzeentch armies, honestly. Pretty much every unit in a Tzeentch army is a wizard too. Yeah, Teclis is a better caster... because he's an actual god. If Tzeentch themselves showed up on the battlefield in person, I'd expect them to blow Teclis out of the water in a purely magical duel. Also, all those wizard units casting spells becomes a real liability when going up against a Tzeentch army, so the Lumineth end up feeling like an army that relies heavily on magic while the Tzeentch army feels like an army that feeds on magic, which is exactly as it should be.

Neither magical nor martial mastery is the Lumineth's "main thing" - the combination of the two is their thing. That's their unique niche within the overall design space.

I don't see "animal themes" as represented in any way by the Lumineth rules, so it feels like you're expanding the discussion into aesthetics without any reference to game design here. The only animals used in the model designs are one-for-one mapped to their elemental temples, so from a rules perspective we can talk about them in the same breath, and they don't interfere with the design space of the Beastmen in any way.

One area where I do feel the Lumineth are too limited compared to other armies (and this does tie in to your point about the elemental themes) - they are entirely Hyshian. Most other armies can be themed to come from any of the Mortal Realms, and I think that's a great strength. With the Lumineth (and the rumoured Umbraneth) they're going in a very different direction, and it's one that I think genuinely does put unnecessary restrictions on their design choices.

I totally agree with you on this one. Aetherquartz may or may not have needed representation in the Lumineth rules (personally I think we'll see a lot more "expendable resource" mechanics in future army releases, and it's a very conscious design choice to keep adding these types of systems) but it could definitely have just used an identical mechanic to Aethergold. Or, it could have used a completely separate unique mechanic. There was no need to come up with a system that was very nearly, but not quite, identical.

Sadly, this is totally wrong. It might be nice if AoS was first and foremost a game, but it's not. We know (from GW game developers describing the internal process) that the people who write the rules actually come in quite close to the end of the chain, long after the lore and concept art is established.

So for a release like the Lumineth, the game designers don't get to look at the current state of the game and say "Hey, it seems like there's design space for an all-elite, elemental-themed magical faction that would fit a good niche alongside the existing armies. Let's make that happen!" Instead, the lore writers come to them and say "These are the Lumineth. They're super-skilled magical elves who venerate bestial elemental spirits - see the cow hats? - and rely heavily on their realmstone to boost their magic powers and dampen their emotions. Make up some rules which represent that."

It doesn't really matter whether we (the community) think GW should work rules-first, because they've made it abundantly clear they're not going to.

Only thing I would add to this excellent post is that I feel as though the Lumineth are basically the Elves Circa War of the Beard, which is to say, at their zenith. Which lore wise is interesting and all but it does break the balance somewhat, as Elves are just too good pound for pound to exist in any great number without it seeing pretty absurd. Their decline and scarcity was part of their supernatiral prowess being believable and not egregious.

With the Lumineth that isnt so much the case and I think it adds a tension to the other aspects that you mention which makes them feel somewhat implausible. I suppose you could point to their splendid isolation on Hysh, as with Ulthuan, as being a corrective to that though.

[Baron Klatz]

Even then there's signs of them growing beyond the Realm of Hysh, they don't have the "been there for centuries" excuse other races do like the Fyreslayers or Sylvaneth so they're similar to the Kharadron/Ossiarchs who had to also slowly make their way out of their homes and a strong presence in the other realms as time went on.

That's the best part of the Mortal Realms as a constantly growing setting, nothing is set in stone. For all we know with the next Broken Realms book the Lumineth might see bigger expansion through the realms to account for the Khainites mischief and whatever rumblings it causes Slaanesh so we end up with glistening ivory towers of bone in Ghur & flying trade spire cities in Chamon as aetherquartz and aether-gold exchange hands.

It's also a subtle thing on their huge numbers i love. With their access to magic cloning being relatively common they've finally justified "as many aelves as the plot demands".

Edited October 26, 2020 by Baron Klatz

[Frowny]

Yes, probably my title is too rage inducing. Maybe something about being inefficient with it rather than wasting it since there are a lot of good ideas in them. I just think it gets messy when they smush in too many of those ideas simultaneously.

I also think I'm maybe thinking about them wrong. The goal was apparently to just recreate high elves, which they did, appealing to that audience, rather than one of the more concise armies they've done since then.

But that doesn't get gw off the hook. One could make the argument that the old high elves were lazy with design as well, as someone mentioned, they were a bit good at everything.

Some simple fixes to not eat their own design-old high elves were great at magic but not every unit was a wizard. Why use up that gimmick? Just give them some solid high tier casters. You've now satisfied the high elf vibe but haven't cheapened future wizard as unit releases, especially in the battleline slot. 

I really like the stances/martial side. The deploy in rank stuff for the spearmen is fun. Why not lean more into that? For example, the alirith could have just as easily leaned into their hammer stance, dropping the 'stone'/elemental sub theme while keeping them mechanically the same -now you've doubled down on their most coherent element (martial mastery) and not wasted another idea (elemental stuff).

 

[LuminethMage]

4 hours ago, Nos said:

Only thing I would add to this excellent post is that I feel as though the Lumineth are basically the Elves Circa War of the Beard, which is to say, at their zenith. Which lore wise is interesting and all but it does break the balance somewhat, as Elves are just too good pound for pound to exist in any great number without it seeing pretty absurd. Their decline and scarcity was part of their supernatiral prowess being believable and not egregious.

With the Lumineth that isnt so much the case and I think it adds a tension to the other aspects that you mention which makes them feel somewhat implausible. I suppose you could point to their splendid isolation on Hysh, as with Ulthuan, as being a corrective to that though.

Maybe a bit of a misconception about this, because the BT is a bit murky about it all. They aren't really at their zenith right now, that was during the Age of Myth (similar to most of the other factions). They've just preserveered  through almost being wiped out completely. I asked Phil Kelly on Twitter, and their big cities are still pretty much mostly in ruins, they are just in the process of re-building, and Hysh is still disintegrating in many places. That's one reason why Tyrion is opposed to Teclis "adventures" into other Realms. 

They are on an upward trend though right now, that's a big difference to Fantasy, as you say. But they are still scarce. At this point Teclis sent out the very first mission to other Realms basically, and likely a few other forces have followed behind (because of the short story in the BT, as well as the background story in Warcry etc.). They are really few though, outside of Hysh, and as you say - most of them would like still like to stay in Hysh. We also don't really know how high their total population is. But in the long run - if Broken Realms doesn't bring everything down again, they should be in a better position than they were in the last stages of Fantasy, that's true. 

[Baron Klatz]

Indeed, it makes for a good mix between them being a growing power like the other flourishing races but at the same time they aren't dominant as they're fighting from the shores inward to reclaim their continents so this nicely steps over the worries players had that armies like Bloodbound and Gloomspite couldn't fit in Hysh if everything was under aelven control.

2 hours ago, Frowny said:

Some simple fixes to not eat their own design-old high elves were great at magic but not every unit was a wizard. Why use up that gimmick? Just give them some solid high tier casters. You've now satisfied the high elf vibe but haven't cheapened future wizard as unit releases, especially in the battleline slot.

Stormcast Sacrosanct already had wizard units and that didn't cheapen the Lumineth's release as was befitting the creations of the greatest Order god of magic himself.

If GW want they can easily release another earth focused faction with wizard units and make it largely different in flavor with a few tweaks. For example it can be the Gholemkin race in the lore, their realmcrust bodies allow them to be wizard units to cast Chamon spells until too much is chipped off (too many wounds)and they're walking earth elementals so that can be uniquely played on by having them do stuff like eat terrain to repair their bodies. 

It's like saying Kurnothi take the Brayherd's gimmick or Fyreslayers step on Khorne's firey berserker foot. As long as they have a distinct style then they there's no worry of the Mortal Realms races getting in eachothers way while they fill out the endless possibilities the setting gives them.

[Liquidsteel]

The every unit is a wizard rule is a bit too much I think.

They already have Teclis as the number 1 Mage in the game, if they wanted to double down on this mastery then perhaps they could have introduced an elite 3 man unit/council of wizards, for example. Aelves that have dedicated their lifetime to magical mastery, just like the Wardens have dedicated their lifetime to martial mastery of the spear, or the sentinels of the bow.

Edited October 27, 2020 by Liquidsteel

[Bray]

My biggest gripe with LRL is that they aren't a part of Cities of Sigmar. Just hear me out: CoS doesn't get a lot of new models, and they're still using very old models. I thought when CoS was created that it would be the catch all faction for normal type aelves duardin and humans, so why introduce new aelves as they're own thing? I know they're a bit different than most aelves and have their own lore, but if dark elves and phoenix guard are a part of CoS, then why not aelves who snort quarts for big brain?

Maybe I'm completely out of it, buuut that's just my two drops of Aqua Ghyranis.

[Icarion]

2 minutes ago, Liquidsteel said:

The every unit is a wizard rule is a bit too much I think.

They already have Teclis as the number 1 Mage in the game, if they wanted to double down on this mastery then perhaps they could have introduced an elite 3 man unit/council of wizards, for example. Aelves that have dedicated their lifetime to magical mastery, just like the Wardens have dedicated their lifetime to martial mastery of the spear, or the sentinels of the bow.

It not a rule, and of the 10 warscrolls in the book, only 6 are wizards.

Nearly half the army is not.

Why wouldn't the army created by the literal God of magic have a lot of wizards.