Tzeentch win Cancon and the GW GT Heat 1

[Kasper]

10 hours ago, Sedraxis said:

Yes because every army can just dish out 100+ wounds in 1 turn, especially after being shot at by 60+ 3+ 4+ -1 1 shots and however many flamers you want to get in range. At -1 to hit of course, good thing you also have free reign on objectives too.

Have you never played another tome to notice the difference in power here?

Destiny Dice is one hell of a drug.

The fact that DD no longer autopasses battleshock for Horrors is gonna be quite a big thing. You often don't need to remove the entire unit in 1 round of combat due to battleshock, unless the Tzeentch player is keeping a hero super close. Even a DD of 1 shouldn't matter since you have likely removed the banner bearer. 

In the cases where Tzeentch throws 1 unit of 20 Horrors, he will keep you back in turn 1 but they will all die to battleshock since he wont have another hero within range. With "only" 1 teleport he wont be able to make another layer and risk some severe punch if you win the double. 

Edited February 4, 2020 by Kasper

[Sinfullyvannila]

2 hours ago, Qaz said:

??? Do explain.

Split and Split again (second paragraph): "Set up the additional models one at a time within 1"of the position that the slain model had occupied".

Rare is the occasion where the blues fail to appear. I think you need 4 (32mm) models surrounding a pink for the second blue to failed to be placed. 

They gain almost 50% of their footprint whenever they split. Don’t play with the assumption that the player put their splits within the range Locus of Change or Inspiring Presence. Make them check whenever a set of attacks resolve.

[Sedraxis]

19 minutes ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

They gain almost 50% of their footprint whenever they split. Don’t play with the assumption that the player put their splits within the range Locus of Change or Inspiring Presence. Make them check whenever a set of attacks resolve.

If only players could practice this and have free reign in deciding how to place their units. The restrictions are good but they are no excuse for their insane stats/efficiency. Anyone can do this right with a little bit of practice.

I wish there was more an opponent could do to interact with the Tzeentch mechanics in general, since randomness is already out the window.

 

Edited February 4, 2020 by Sedraxis

[NJohansson]

19 minutes ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

They gain almost 50% of their footprint whenever they split. Don’t play with the assumption that the player put their splits within the range Locus of Change or Inspiring Presence. Make them check whenever a set of attacks resolve.

The most common is that the Tzeentch player will place the new models further back (i.e. closer to Locus and IP) especially if you are using them as a tarpit (no need to increase the footprint for extra attacks). So naturally you are right that it is important to double check - but has never been a real problem in my games.

[Beliman]

Can they split if they "flee" from a failed battleshock? I don't know if "counts as being slain" can trigger the split ability (it only requires to be "slain").

[whiskeytango]

"counts as slain" is the same as "slain"

[Sedraxis]

21 minutes ago, whiskeytango said:

"counts as slain" is the same as "slain"

Not necessarily, since "counts as movement" has been ruled to not be the same as "movement" when it comes to the Balewind Vortex for example.

The GW rulesteam or whoever writes the faqs/tomes tends to have weird logic every now and then.

[whiskeytango]

13 minutes ago, Sedraxis said:

Not necessarily, since "counts as movement" has been ruled to not be the same as "movement" when it comes to the Balewind Vortex for example.

The GW rulesteam or whoever writes the faqs/tomes tends to have weird logic every now and then.

That's a fair point, but I think without a "clarifying" FAQ, the most logical stance is that if it says "counts as slain", then they do indeed, count as being slain, and thus split. 

[Bishop3]

Guys a question about the new use of dd for battleshock. The Faq says that the dd for battleshock aren't unmodified roll so the ability of pink horrors banner is triggered? 

The banner ability it's triggered only on natural 1.

What you think about it? 

[Inquisitorsz]

10 minutes ago, Bishop3 said:

Guys a question about the new use of dd for battleshock. The Faq says that the dd for battleshock aren't unmodified roll so the ability of pink horrors banner is triggered? 

The banner ability it's triggered only on natural 1.

What you think about it? 

The FAQ says: 
"In addition, any rolls that have been replaced (with the exception of save rolls and battleshock tests) count as unmodified rolls and cannot be re-rolled or modified further." 
and 
"If you spend a Destiny Dice to replace a battleshock test, the result of that Destiny Dice is modified by the number of models slain from that unit as normal.’"

The Pink Horror Icon Bearer says:
"If the unmodified roll for a battleshock test for this unit while it includes any Pink Horror Icon Bearers is 1, you can return D6 slain Horrors of Tzeentch models to this unit, and no models from this unit will flee in that battleshock phase. "

So using a destiny dice of 1 is still "unmodified" and triggers the Pink Horror banner, which then stops the rest of the battleshock calculation.   
The part in the brackets just means there's further clarification for those specific cases. They should have worded it differently, to avoid using the words "with the exception of" but GW has never been overly clear with their wording. 

I can see how it's confusing, perhaps GW needs to clarify the wording, but i believe the intent is for destiny dice of 1 to still work with the icon bearer. 

Edited February 4, 2020 by Inquisitorsz

[Sedraxis]

1 hour ago, whiskeytango said:

That's a fair point, but I think without a "clarifying" FAQ, the most logical stance is that if it says "counts as slain", then they do indeed, count as being slain, and thus split. 

I disagree, both from a design perspective and from reading the rules.

Battleshock reads: remove them and count them as having been slain. Just as some teleports read: the unit counts as having moved.

When a model is slain through allocating wounds however a model is first slain and then removed from play. There is a separate section for this in the rules.

Now these are all very minor things, same for the unmodified stuff on battleshocks and banners, but they have a big impact on the game. RAW they would both end up as not being allowed the way I read it, but those terms tend to just be put aside by populair demand when it suits.

What ruins it for me is that Tzeentch is the only faction that gains a big amount of power from shady rules mechanics and lack of clarifications, such as the thigns mentionned above, casting spells without targets for extra fate points and killing your own models with endless spells since they don't specify enemy targets and then returning extra models through healing/banners.

These things aren't tactical choices or faction mechanics, they're (likely unintended) bits and pieces of extra power that players draw out after interpreting the rules.

I don't understand why we as a community applaud these things.

 

[Freejack02]

13 minutes ago, Sedraxis said:

These things aren't tactical choices or faction mechanics, they're (likely unintended) bits and pieces of extra power that players draw out after interpreting the rules.

I don't understand why we as a community applaud these things.

The same reason why an attorney who finds a new niche in written laws becomes praised by their firm, or a racing engineer becomes a hero for figuring out how they can shave another 10 pounds off a car - it's natural to look for a competitive edge within the rule-set given to them. Competition breeds creative thinking, pure and simple. 

[HarbingerGaming]

Just to comment on the casting spells with no targets: that was entirely intentional. Ben Johnson on the official GW podcast openly said this was a tactic you can do when they were going over the different factions and how they were changing when AoS 2.0 was going to be dropping. All of the wording permits this as well, as even choosing a target for a spell isn't done until the spell is successfully cast. This is done purposefully, to encourage critical thinking during the hero phase of what spells are on the docket for your opponent, and what you should prioritize or let through. Yes, it does permit spells to be cast with no valid targets, and yeah that only really benefits Tzeentch because of how Fate Points work, but let's be honest here: Fate Points are the worst of the summoning mechanics for the god armies because of how volatile magic itself is. 

Edited February 5, 2020 by HarbingerGaming

[Kasper]

8 hours ago, Freejack02 said:

The same reason why an attorney who finds a new niche in written laws becomes praised by their firm, or a racing engineer becomes a hero for figuring out how they can shave another 10 pounds off a car - it's natural to look for a competitive edge within the rule-set given to them. Competition breeds creative thinking, pure and simple. 

I think there is a significant difference between people playing this hobby, which is ultimately to have fun and socialize, and people doing extradoinary work within their field, which is ultimately driven by earning higher salaries/bonuses.

[Kasper]

10 hours ago, whiskeytango said:

That's a fair point, but I think without a "clarifying" FAQ, the most logical stance is that if it says "counts as slain", then they do indeed, count as being slain, and thus split. 

The core rules for "slain models" and "battleshock" read significantly different. The text for "slain models" reads that the models are slain as in dead, then removed from the table. For battleshock the rules read that the models are removed from the table (not slain/dead), but following that they count as slain - For  the purpose of kill points etc. 

 

Edited February 5, 2020 by Kasper

[Gecktron]

44 minutes ago, Kasper said:

The core rules for "slain models" and "battleshock" read significantly different. The text for "slain models" reads that the models are slain as in dead, then removed from the table. For battleshock the rules read that the models are removed from the table (not slain/dead), but following that they count as slain - For  the purpose of kill points etc. 

 

In 40K, the Adeptus Mechanicus subfaction Graia has an ability that triggers when a unit is slain "or removed due to failed leadership test". 

Sure, its a different game, but It could be a hint on how GW handles these things. 

[NJohansson]

9 hours ago, Sedraxis said:

I disagree, both from a design perspective and from reading the rules.

Battleshock reads: remove them and count them as having been slain. Just as some teleports read: the unit counts as having moved.

When a model is slain through allocating wounds however a model is first slain and then removed from play. There is a separate section for this in the rules.

Now these are all very minor things, same for the unmodified stuff on battleshocks and banners, but they have a big impact on the game. RAW they would both end up as not being allowed the way I read it, but those terms tend to just be put aside by populair demand when it suits.

What ruins it for me is that Tzeentch is the only faction that gains a big amount of power from shady rules mechanics and lack of clarifications, such as the thigns mentionned above, casting spells without targets for extra fate points and killing your own models with endless spells since they don't specify enemy targets and then returning extra models through healing/banners.

These things aren't tactical choices or faction mechanics, they're (likely unintended) bits and pieces of extra power that players draw out after interpreting the rules.

I don't understand why we as a community applaud these things.

 

So far I have not seen anyone play it any other way than that battle chock counts as slain and thus creates new models. Sure you could maybe argue the other way around but unless FAQ says otherwise it seems very counterintuitive to argue that counts as slain and slain means different things.

[Sedraxis]

3 minutes ago, NJohansson said:

So far I have not seen anyone play it any other way than that battle chock counts as slain and thus creates new models. Sure you could maybe argue the other way around but unless FAQ says otherwise it seems very counterintuitive to argue that counts as slain and slain means different things.

Yet the ability even reads:

"Should a Horror meet its end at the hands of an enemy, it is capable of splitting itself into lesser daemons".

The ability also specifies that wounds should be allocated to pinks first, but doesn't mention Battleshock anywhere. How is the intention still unclear?

I get that a community of Tzeentch players will read the rules in the best way possible, this isn't news. It's the sole reason I'm trying to shed some light on it because I think it is bad for the game as a whole.

[Kasper]

2 hours ago, NJohansson said:

So far I have not seen anyone play it any other way than that battle chock counts as slain and thus creates new models. Sure you could maybe argue the other way around but unless FAQ says otherwise it seems very counterintuitive to argue that counts as slain and slain means different things.

But the chain of events is different for the two different rules. One says the model is slain on the table (triggering abilities), then removed from play. The other says the model is removed from play, but then counts as slain. The "counts as slain" reads to me that it is in cases such as calculating kill points, otherwise you wouldn't score points if the last few models in a unit flees. The model has already been removed from play, so if it "counts as slain" shouldn't have any gameplay effects. 

[grucha]

Seems like GW clarified using DD for batleshock (1 roll issue).

[Xyxel]

Well that escalated changed quickly.

Without heroes with CP to babysit them with Inspiring Presence they are weak now. Maybe worth 120-140 points.

Edited February 5, 2020 by Xyxel

[Sedraxis]

6 minutes ago, Xyxel said:

Well that escalated changed quickly.

Without heroes with CP to babysit them with Inspiring Presence they are weak now. Maybe worth 120-140 points.

I hope you are not talking about pink horrors, because that would be downright crazy.

[grucha]

....and they almost instantly kinda put it into "interpretation" tag. Not sure whether to treat is as a tragedy or comedy

[EMMachine]

How does "Warhammer Age of Sigmar" even come to such a conclusion.

I mean, "unmodified" roll only means, the value that is shown on the dice. So using a Destiny Dice of 1 is still an unmodified roll for the Banner rules because the dice is showing a 1.

The only intention for the destiny dice in case of Bravery was, that you can't simply make units completly immune to bravery even when spending a 6. (after most units have a bravery of at least 6).

[Sedraxis]

4 minutes ago, EMMachine said:

How does "Warhammer Age of Sigmar" even come to such a conclusion.

I mean, "unmodified" roll only means, the value that is shown on the dice. So using a Destiny Dice of 1 is still an unmodified roll for the Banner rules because the dice is showing a 1.

The only intention for the destiny dice in case of Bravery was, that you can't simply make units completly immune to bravery even when spending a 6. (after most units have a bravery of at least 6).

Because it clearly reads in the FAQ that Destiny Dice are unmodified except when using them for Save or Battleshock rolls. Its that simple. The intention was to stop DD from making units immune to battleshock, which is also what the banner does.

Edited February 5, 2020 by Sedraxis