Aos 2 - Lumineth Realm-Lords Discussion

[adboyslim]

Sorry about the noob question : in this forum I see a lot of discussion speaking about persistent spell that are not LRL like cogs, spell portal, a vortex and palissade. Are they all regrouped in one bundle? Do you know where I can find the rules if I want to test them and use proxy?

BTW thanks @chosen_of_khaine for this kind of explanation before. This is very valuable for a beginner like me. I was not aware of this paradoxal rule of the donkey with 2 carrots at same distance 😀

[LuminethMage]

1 hour ago, adboyslim said:

Sorry about the noob question : in this forum I see a lot of discussion speaking about persistent spell that are not LRL like cogs, spell portal, a vortex and palissade. Are they all regrouped in one bundle? Do you know where I can find the rules if I want to test them and use proxy?

BTW thanks @chosen_of_khaine for this kind of explanation before. This is very valuable for a beginner like me. I was not aware of this paradoxal rule of the donkey with 2 carrots at same distance 😀

Most of the Endless Spells are bundled in a product called Maligned Sorcery. But there are a few important ones, for us mainly the Balewind Vortex, that are not. Currently, you might not be even able to buy the Vortex. Malign Sorcerery has most of them though, like the Cogs and the Spell Portal. 

You can go to the Warhammer Warscroll Builder website, select Lumineth under Order and scroll down to see all the endless spells we can use (names and points, not rules). You can have a look at their Warscrolls on the free app, or on the GW website. Maybe there are other good options : ) 

Edited April 11, 2021 by LuminethMage

[Siegfried VII]

2 hours ago, chosen_of_khaine said:

It's easiest to imagine with a single entity like a bloodthirster - charge two units in on opposite sides, pile out to 2.9" so they are equidistant from the enemy, and the enemy can't pile in at all and can only fight if it has any 3" range weapons. You can do this against other units too, but they may be able to get a model or two on either end of the unit into your Windchargers if they have enough models to string between both sides and within weapon range. To be clear, with normal pile-in rules this is still a good strategy, but being able to pull out to just under 3" makes it incredibly hard for your opponent to get any models into fighting range. 

If you have the battalion, you don't even need to charge into half an inch anyway - you just pile in to exactly where you want to be with all your windchargers and they will never have a chance to hit you first. Then on their turn, you can opt to remain in combat and sit at 2.9" or just disengage entirely and pile back to 2.9" next combat phase.

Of course, you will still lose some windchargers over the course of the game, but your opponent has to put a disproportionate amount of effort into dealing with them, all the while your entire Auralan Legion's worth of other models are capturing objectives and winning the game.

Most units will have enough models to string and do damage to thw Windchargers. They are just 10 wounds with 5+ save. With more careful formation on units a good opponent can mitigate the effect even more. Against a single model it is certainly more doable what your're suggesting.

Again this is a very unrealistic in the way that Your opponent will have screens, chaf and can deploy in a way that you won't be able to do such tricks in the first1-2 turns by  having each of his units cover the other. There are may armies also who will strike first and be equally fast as you so they may ruin the strategy before you implement it.

Armies with shooting will already have the answer.. Seraphon, Kharadron and Tzeentch will deal in short time with this combo. If this combo can be negated by 3 of the top 6 armies with ease, then it is not a good combo for a tournament. I believe good players may try this, but will eventually move away in favour of more solid strategies..

[LuminethMage]

I really want to see how this works on the table. With other units taking part, space problems etc. I'm sure there are some cases, where people who are good with this can pull off some great plays. I have a hard time seeing this to be a common thing in most games though. But I might be wrong. I find this hard to judge. 

[chosen_of_khaine]

@Siegfried VII I do agree that Lumineth will probably not become enormously more consistent in terms of tournament results, as Seraphon, KO, and Tzeentch have better matchups against them than most, but to your point that they are only 10 wounds on a 5+ save, and your opponent will have screens, etc - from what I can tell, the reality is that the 6" pile in in any direction is an IMMENSELY powerful tool, and on a unit that has a 14" (or 16" near windmage) with fly, a decent ranged attack and a 3" melee attack with high rend, they will affect the game way, WAY beyond their points cost and I expect to see them everywhere in tournament lists. If they were a more expensive unit I would be inclinded to agree with you, but they are incredibly cheap for how many core rules they are allowed to break.

Regardless of how effective it is in tournament settings, it will be entirely unpleasant to play against in any other context. It's not even something that you "game" the rules with either, from what I can tell it is exactly their intended purpose as a unit. 

 

Edit: And to be clear, I'm saying this as someone who LOVES Lumineth and how well the rules match the lore, and honestly thinks High Elves should be allowed to break the rules since they are better than everyone else BUT I like to think I can recognize problematic rules when I see them...

Edited April 12, 2021 by chosen_of_khaine

[Siegfried VII]

1 hour ago, chosen_of_khaine said:

@Siegfried VII I do agree that Lumineth will probably not become enormously more consistent in terms of tournament results, as Seraphon, KO, and Tzeentch have better matchups against them than most, but to your point that they are only 10 wounds on a 5+ save, and your opponent will have screens, etc - from what I can tell, the reality is that the 6" pile in in any direction is an IMMENSELY powerful tool, and on a unit that has a 14" (or 16" near windmage) with fly, a decent ranged attack and a 3" melee attack with high rend, they will affect the game way, WAY beyond their points cost and I expect to see them everywhere in tournament lists. If they were a more expensive unit I would be inclinded to agree with you, but they are incredibly cheap for how many core rules they are allowed to break.

Regardless of how effective it is in tournament settings, it will be entirely unpleasant to play against in any other context. It's not even something that you "game" the rules with either, from what I can tell it is exactly their intended purpose as a unit. 

 

Edit: And to be clear, I'm saying this as someone who LOVES Lumineth and how well the rules match the lore, and honestly thinks High Elves should be allowed to break the rules since they are better than everyone else BUT I like to think I can recognize problematic rules when I see them...

I believe the unit is very good, no argument there! But in my opinion it will have value with just 2-3 units outside the battalion and it's charge with 6 inches and fly will be very useful in scoring objectives far away reaching behind chaf units or clearing said units from objectives. I think they pointed correctly and will have value in lists. Just not with this combo.

In casual games Idon't see people using this strategy anyways and I think casual players won't be bothered with more complex strategies etc, so I believe it won't be used as much in casual games too, but for other reasons..

P.S. I love Lumineth too and WE ARE better than everyone else..🤣🤣

4 hours ago, LuminethMage said:

I really want to see how this works on the table. With other units taking part, space problems etc. I'm sure there are some cases, where people who are good with this can pull off some great plays. I have a hard time seeing this to be a common thing in most games though. But I might be wrong. I find this hard to judge. 

It happens all the time and it has happened to me many times. What people say tha battle plans rarely survive contact with the enemy is quite true..

There were quite a few times something that looked awesome to me on the paper (like the reroll save Stoneguard get from the battalion), as soon as the time came to implement it in battle and saw that the wholly within 12 inches at the combat is very unwieldly and even more unwieldly if you want to get the initiative and go and charge/claim objectives..

As you said we'll see where the dust will settle after some months (or more if 3rd Edition comes so soon as July) and we be proven right or wrong .. Only time will tell.. 🙂 

[whispersofblood]

It's an overstated strategy. HoS have been able to do this for like 2 years now with a cheaper more durable unit, with less tax in the battalion and it never showed up because units don't float around the board in little bubbles with 8" gaps between them. 

At best you can trade for a couple turns to delay things like HGB, the battalion is a trap. I'd rather have 2 ballistae and do dmg then do zero damage and have the delayed units table me from turn 3 onwards. 

It would be better if the battalion could include more than one Spirit of the wind though because then you wouldn't be trading at all. Which would make it superior to the existing versions of this Strat, with units like Yetis, SoS, and Seeker Cavalcade. Even still anything with 2" reach solves the problem there, or anything that can pile-in twice or has a 6" pile-in itself. 

LRL also don't have a go to way remove single models so it's not as it we can punish people effeciently for pile-in moves which thin the center of their units. 

[Ragest]

3 hours ago, chosen_of_khaine said:

@Siegfried VII I do agree that Lumineth will probably not become enormously more consistent in terms of tournament results, as Seraphon, KO, and Tzeentch have better matchups against them than most, but to your point that they are only 10 wounds on a 5+ save, and your opponent will have screens, etc - from what I can tell, the reality is that the 6" pile in in any direction is an IMMENSELY powerful tool, and on a unit that has a 14" (or 16" near windmage) with fly, a decent ranged attack and a 3" melee attack with high rend, they will affect the game way, WAY beyond their points cost and I expect to see them everywhere in tournament lists. If they were a more expensive unit I would be inclinded to agree with you, but they are incredibly cheap for how many core rules they are allowed to break.

Regardless of how effective it is in tournament settings, it will be entirely unpleasant to play against in any other context. It's not even something that you "game" the rules with either, from what I can tell it is exactly their intended purpose as a unit. 

 

Edit: And to be clear, I'm saying this as someone who LOVES Lumineth and how well the rules match the lore, and honestly thinks High Elves should be allowed to break the rules since they are better than everyone else BUT I like to think I can recognize problematic rules when I see them...

You are going to need 810 points in the list for doing that (Windmage+spirit+2x windchargers+battalion)

almost half your list to just lock down a single unit that most of the time (unless it’s archaon) costs half you had to invest to make this work. 
 

When you invest that amount of points in a (elite) list, you need something stronger than just stopping one unit. Teclis+spellportal are 730 points, full Auralan batt is 720 pt (cath+2x 10 wards+2x 10 sents+batt) even alarith batt with the best hammer this army has is 790pt.

Hurakan's are too complicated to play them in casual games and too weak for tournament games.

At least I think windmage is pretty good, even just for the teleport and sevireth could have some uses, but windchargers are the worst warscroll this second wave has.

[Siegfried VII]

13 minutes ago, Ragest said:

Hurakan's are too complicated to play them in casual games and too weak for tournament games.

This sums it up very well in one sentence me thinks.. 🙂

[Bosskelot]

Just noticed a cool little detail in the short story in the Ballista's lore entry; the two female crew are lovers.

Nice to see GW at least make some effort in LGBT representation that isn't just squirreled away in a Black Library book.

[Acid_Nine]

Silly thought; has anyone tried to ally in a megagargant mercenary? Just seems like something silly we could do.

[adboyslim]

Guys the time has come were I need your help! As said in some previous post I never played any AoS game.

And I will fight against my best friend (who did few games) and who play Skaven (probably Skryre or pestilens)! I heard it is a terrible matchup isn't it? The party will be 1500 points. 🥴 I can use some proxies!

So please give me any advice you could have! Here are some areas of discussion. Because for now I have really no idea. 😀 

• what are the main threats (I think he has a lot of missile weapon / MW)?
• how do I counter his "teleport" ability?
• what is the recommended nation? Maybe illiatha trying to have multiple re-roll on sentinels and snipe the snipers? Or Alumnia to send dawnriders in melee quickly? Or Syar just because it is better?
• any preferred hero, wizard, lore or spell?
• any strategy to recommend? rushing in melee, trying to kill somebody in particular, protecting somebody?

Thanks a lot in advance!!

 

[Tizianolol]

Guys im not in my home,do you know if they add new lumineth models on tabletop simulator?:)

[Dreadmund]

On 4/13/2021 at 4:17 PM, Tizianolol said:

Guys im not in my home,do you know if they add new lumineth models on tabletop simulator?:)

Yes, but its in a new mod so you need to search the workshop again 👍

 

[Tizianolol]

Oh i found its! Its another guy that made it! Thx a lot!!

[John Edwards]

On 4/13/2021 at 4:13 PM, adboyslim said:

Guys the time has come were I need your help! As said in some previous post I never played any AoS game.

And I will fight against my best friend (who did few games) and who play Skaven (probably Skryre or pestilens)! I heard it is a terrible matchup isn't it? The party will be 1500 points. 🥴 I can use some proxies!

So please give me any advice you could have! Here are some areas of discussion. Because for now I have really no idea. 😀 

• what are the main threats (I think he has a lot of missile weapon / MW)?
• how do I counter his "teleport" ability?
• what is the recommended nation? Maybe illiatha trying to have multiple re-roll on sentinels and snipe the snipers? Or Alumnia to send dawnriders in melee quickly? Or Syar just because it is better?
• any preferred hero, wizard, lore or spell?
• any strategy to recommend? rushing in melee, trying to kill somebody in particular, protecting somebody?

Thanks a lot in advance!!

 

I've not played any games with my Lumineth yet due to covid keeping my local group apart, nor does my group have any Skaven players, so what I say is 100% theory rather than practice. However...

What kind of game are you playing? When I first introduce someone to Age of Sigmar I start with Core Rules + Warscrolls only, Open Play and a simple battleplan. Thereafter we ramp up the complexity by adding in our Battletomes and later Matched Play from the General's Handbook 2020.

My advice:

• Winning in Age of Sigmar is more about playing the battleplan than straight up killing the enemy (though it certainly helps!). Read "Objectives" on page 11 of the Core Rules.
• Age of Sigmar is a game where synergies matter. Talk with your opponent before the game about each other's armies, check out their list and warscrolls. This will help to inform target prioritisation and avoid a negative play experience where the more experienced player abuses their knowledge of  the game to destroy a new player.
• Because objectives matter, deployment and mobility matter. The spells Speed of Hysh, Transporting Vortex and Crippling Vertigo are all valuable in this regard. I like the Loreseeker's special deployment rule too.
• Play a Great Nation which you like lore wise. Play models you like aesthetically. You will spend a lot of time with your army out side of actual games and I find liking my army from a narrative/hobby perspective important.
• Skaven have access to cheap hordes, which help with securing objectives. Dawnriders will have a chance to shine vs these 1 wound infantry horde units.
• At 1500pts you can't afford a Teclis based list. I like the synergy between Cathallar (Darkness of the Soul) and a Stonemage with Voice of the Mountain.
  • I'm giving my Cathallar the Silver Wand so she can cast Protection of Hysh and Total Eclipse or Darkness of the Soul each turn (I play Zaitrec), and plan to protect her with Bladelords.
  • My Stonemage gets the Gift of Celennar and generally sits well back with some Sentinels given that Voice of the Mountain has no range limitations

[LuminethMage]

Just for the people who might have not done that yet. The new novel “The End of Enlightenment” is pretty good. It’s foreseeable how the story will end - especially if you have heard anything about what’s happening in BR Teclis, lol - but it has some genuine good characters in my view, and even the OBR part is pretty strong at the start.  

Edited April 18, 2021 by LuminethMage

[Koradrel of Chrace]

Anyone have any thoughts on the Twins?  I realize Teclis + Loremaster + Sentinels in Syar is probably going to be The List still, but I was looking at something like this for competitive play:

++ **Pitched Battle** 2,000 (Order - Lumineth) [2,000pts] ++

+ Leader +

Hurakan Windmage [120pts]: 0. Waystone, 6. Transporting Vortex

Scinari Loreseeker [160pts]

Vanari Lord Regent [150pts]: 0. Burning Gaze, 1. Syari Pommel, 4. Ethereal Blessing, General

+ Battleline +

Vanari Auralan Sentinels [140pts]: 1. Speed of Hysh, 10 Vanari Auralan Sentinels

Vanari Auralan Sentinels [140pts]: 1. Speed of Hysh, 10 Vanari Auralan Sentinels

Vanari Auralan Wardens [240pts]: 2x 10 Vanari Auralan Wardens, 6. Protection of Hysh

Vanari Dawnriders [260pts]: 3. Lambent Light, 2x 5 Vanari Dawnriders, Standard Bearer, Steedmaster

+ Battalion +

Battalion: Bladelord Host [720pts]
. Ellania and Ellathor: 5. Total Eclipse
. Vanari Bladelords: 2x 5 Vanari Bladelords
. Vanari Bladelords: 5 Vanari Bladelords

+ Allegiance +

Allegiance
. Allegiance: Lumineth: Alumnia

+ Game Options +

Game Type: 2000 Points - Battlehost

+ Realm of Origin +

Realm of Origin: Origin: Hysh

+ Malign Sorcery +

Endless Spell: Rune of Petrification [70pts]

+ Scenery +

Shrine Luminor

++ Total: [2,000pts] ++

Created with [url=https://battlescribe.net]BattleScribe[/url]

 

I only really included the battalion for the extra artifact and command point.  I'm not really sure if I like that one or the Dawnrider Lance instead.

Edited April 18, 2021 by Koradrel of Chrace

[LuminethMage]

I’ve played with the Twins, they and the Loreseeker are probably the most fun units we have right now.

I had 5 Bladelords with them and from T3 onwards they can do so good damage, especially for a Lumineth unit. Best thing is the teleport. Not sure if they are the best thing competitively, but I try to build a list around them. 

So thumbs up! The Bladelord battalion will likely do nothing for you besides the extra CP and artifact in most matches. 

[Koradrel of Chrace]

Do you think the Lance battalion would be better?

Although if some of the rumors about 3E are true, we might not have to worry about battalions in competitive play anymore.

Edited April 19, 2021 by Koradrel of Chrace

[LuminethMage]

1 hour ago, Koradrel of Chrace said:

Do you think the Lance battalion would be better?

Although if some of the rumors about 3E are true, we might not have to worry about battalions in competitive play anymore.

It depends to be honest. Basically both of them save you CP for re-rolling ones. I usually play only with 5 Dawnrider - and they mostly get to charge once in game, then they are dead. Until so far, they were often out of range to use CA, so in that case it was useful. But now you could have a Lord Regent in range. Danwriders have the sunmetal weapon ability, which makes re-rolling hit rolls extra useful though over the Bladelords.

The Bladelords ability is really niche I think. A unit where you want to use your multi-hit ability over your auto-hit ability has to charge you. No Sunmetal ability (sniff). If you have a local meta with a lot of big units on small base sizes that going to charge you, but then don't kill your 5 man unit when they do, and you can strike back and roll a bucket loads of dice - then this ability is useful of course. Or, in case the Bladelords get the sunmetal abilities in the end (which I don't think will happen). You can orchestrate it a bit of course with our double activation (pile in two Bladelords units to get the bonus).

In the end it depends what you think is more likely - you charging a lot with your Dawnriders into units with 1, 2 wounds, or being charged a lot by units where you can use the multi-hit ability of the Bladelords. 

Probably both are more useful for the extra CP and artifact you can get. 

[Koradrel of Chrace]

Yeah, that was kind if my assessment as well.  In the end, I went with the Bladelord battalion because it also affects the Twins if they're part of the battalion.  I then treat the larger unit of Bladelords as ablative wounds for the Twins, while the smaller unit gets teleported to help the Loremaster.  From there, shennannigans abound.

That's the plan anyway.....

[adboyslim]

On 4/18/2021 at 11:25 AM, John Edwards said:

What kind of game are you playing? When I first introduce someone to Age of Sigmar I start with Core Rules + Warscrolls only, Open Play and a simple battleplan.

I already did 2 small battles just to learn the rules. This time it will be one of the objective mission chosen randomly.Thanks a lot for your advices!

[Yondaime]

the only really things that makes me sad its that i really like ymetrica, alarith and the stoneguards, i think they are the best units in the tome only second to sentinels,  we got so many ymetrica characters but they literally get no benefit in ymetrica

[Koradrel of Chrace]

I agree.  If anything, I think they should have made those characters not able to interact with subfactions.  It would be basically the same thing, and make the characters feel more like heroes of the Lumineth over all, and not like Ymetrica is the only nation that produces heroes.