Aos 2 - Lumineth Realm-Lords Discussion

[Incineroar87]

9 minutes ago, Yoichir0 said:

I've read this discussion for a while now. Please correct me, if i'm missing something.

I don't know, why everbody is so dissapointed and why so many are complaining. 

Ok, to be honest, Teclis in first Turn is vulnerable, but I think he also can use aetherquartz for +1 save. And if you play against tzeentch the opponent will have to sacrifice the flamers, to get him. After that it can still be a close game.

If you go with a list 2 or 3drops and you get the first turn you can get teclis 4++ with chronomantic cogs and 5+ with gis own spell.

And the warden will have movement 12 with speed spell, so they will mostly be able to get one objective without losing shinning. And even if they don't. They're not useless even if they have to charge.

If Aetherquartz is written like Aether Gold where you can use it in any phase I’d assume it would mean the opponents phases like KO can do, that is a option for more protection. But that + 1 to armor save in the shooting phase will only go so far for Teclis mind you.

[Yoichir0]

It is said, you can use it "if you are target of an attack. [] +1 to sve rolls for the rest of the phase." So yes, Teclis should be able to use it.

 

Edited June 22, 2020 by Yoichir0

[Tiberius501]

The main thing I’m not a fan of is mainly that the army seems built around dealing mortal wounds and ****** over your opponent with debuffs and shutting them down, which just isn’t fun at all to play against. But luckily it seems like you can avoid a lot of that in a friendly setting (will need to use it though by the look of it in tournaments) so I’m actually quite happy with the book. 

Edited June 22, 2020 by Tiberius501

[LuminethMage]

28 minutes ago, Yoichir0 said:

I've read this discussion for a while now. Please correct me, if i'm missing something.

I don't know, why everbody is so dissapointed and why so many are complaining. 

Ok, to be honest, Teclis in first Turn is vulnerable, but I think he also can use aetherquartz for +1 save. And if you play against tzeentch the opponent will have to sacrifice the flamers, to get him. After that it can still be a close game.

If you go with a list 2 or 3drops and you get the first turn you can get teclis 4++ with chronomantic cogs and 5+ with gis own spell.

And the warden will have movement 12 with speed spell, so they will mostly be able to get one objective without losing shinning. And even if they don't. They're not useless even if they have to charge.

From what I understand, your opponent does not even have to kill Teclis, to significantly weaken your whole army, because it's very dependent on Teclis aura. If you listened to the playtester's video they basically said - you have no options against armies who can kill or cripple Teclis on the first turn, and no one thought this will be a really strong army (but fun to play, and potentially very good if you play well and know what to do). 

That said, if you only meet opponents at your local gaming den which are build to  potentially kill Teclis in the first round, then you are either pretty unlucky, or pretty unliked : ). Depending on how the meta is, this might be a problem in tournaments of course, in case it turns out that you have to play Teclis to be viable, and also such alpha strike armies are very viable at the same time. So right now, I totally agree, no need to be worried about this. 

Are there that many complains though? You also have people already saying the Lumineth are totally OP and 100% will destroy everyone else's fun. All in all a pretty normal situation when a new army is going to be released. It wil be interesting to see how it all turns out , but I'm pretty pumped, the Lumineth look like they are going to be a lot of fun to play. I love what they did with the Shining Company, the combined arms play style, and all the magic power and variety they can pull off. 🥳

[Yoichir0]

That sounds a lot better

I'm going to tournaments and i think lrl will be able to win. Yes, not Top tier, but we will see them winning tournaments!

Teclis aura (celennars, to be precise) just affect +1 to spells and unbind and the protection on spells on 4+. The 5+ ward save is a spell with 18" (of course, teclis has to stay alive for it to work).

So, IF he stays alive, the aura effects aren't that important. The 4 nearly save spells and his 18" 5+ is the important thing

[Duke of Mousillon]

Something i am still trying to figure out in my head is if the cowhelmets can actually be used in MSU to screen for wardens as there first rank so to say or if its really just too cute to work. 100 Points isnt the world necessarily but it would also increase the drops. Thats a bigger concern i have. 

[Incineroar87]

I feel it’s too early to judge on our potential tournament success or failure; I believe on the table we will see a difference compared to paper especially once meta trends develop as a result.

It wasn’t long ago that people were crying that the new Tzeentch, Seraphon, KO, Cities and Orruks and other new battletomes at release looked weak, were nerfed, situational and bad for x matchup and they went on to dominate tournaments quickly.  

I believe we will be a great competing army with or without Teclis.

[TeclisGod]

4 hours ago, Duke of Mousillon said:

@TeclisGodi dont think the silverhelms are weird they are a necessity. Pretty sure that I would try to fit at least one unit of them into every list I do with the mobility advantage they give me compared to the 6'' acros the rest of my ranks.

@Duke of Mousillon yeh they definitely are important I was saying more for the fact of running a 10 man rather a 5. I wasnt sure if it was too much. It seems like only 5 to me has a harder time killing a 20 sized unit rather than a 10 man but we shall see.

[TeclisGod]

1 hour ago, Duke of Mousillon said:

Something i am still trying to figure out in my head is if the cowhelmets can actually be used in MSU to screen for wardens as there first rank so to say or if its really just too cute to work. 100 Points isnt the world necessarily but it would also increase the drops. Thats a bigger concern i have. 

The thing I am working around the most for list creations are low drops. Good thing they have great battalions to work with. 

[Lucur]

11 minutes ago, TeclisGod said:

@Duke of Mousillon yeh they definitely are important I was saying more for the fact of running a 10 man rather a 5. I wasnt sure if it was too much. It seems like only 5 to me has a harder time killing a 20 sized unit rather than a 10 man but we shall see.

Statistically a 5 man unit on the charge will deal 9.6 wounds vs 4+save 1w infantry with power of hysh on. This drops to 8.2 without PoH. So to wipe any large infantry unit you will not only want 10, you'll have to drop the aetherquartz to improve the odds. BUT you could always use two smaller units and utilize lightning reactions if you fear retaliation.

I assume to build around a dawnrider lance with 2×10 squads to sweep chaff and some (2×20?) Sentinels to plink heroes. From there we'll see how wardens and Stoneguard fare on the table. At least that's my plan going forward ^^

[TeclisGod]

15 minutes ago, Lucur said:

Statistically a 5 man unit on the charge will deal 9.6 wounds vs 4+save 1w infantry with power of hysh on. This drops to 8.2 without PoH. So to wipe any large infantry unit you will not only want 10, you'll have to drop the aetherquartz to improve the odds. BUT you could always use two smaller units and utilize lightning reactions if you fear retaliation.

I assume to build around a dawnrider lance with 2×10 squads to sweep chaff and some (2×20?) Sentinels to plink heroes. From there we'll see how wardens and Stoneguard fare on the table. At least that's my plan going forward ^^

Yeah that is true 5 dawnriders is around 10 and 10 dawnriders is around 20 wounds against 4+ with Hysh. The only reason I am running a larger unit instead of 2 units of 5 is because I am trying to reduce my drops. Currently it's at 3 which is think is probably good enough.

[ZLee Syn]

3 hours ago, LuminethMage said:

From what I understand, your opponent does not even have to kill Teclis, to significantly weaken your whole army, because it's very dependent on Teclis aura. If you listened to the playtester's video they basically said - you have no options against armies who can kill or cripple Teclis on the first turn, and no one thought this will be a really strong army (but fun to play, and potentially very good if you play well and know what to do). 

That said, if you only meet opponents at your local gaming den which are build to  potentially kill Teclis in the first round, then you are either pretty unlucky, or pretty unliked : ). Depending on how the meta is, this might be a problem in tournaments of course, in case it turns out that you have to play Teclis to be viable, and also such alpha strike armies are very viable at the same time. So right now, I totally agree, no need to be worried about this. 

Are there that many complains though? You also have people already saying the Lumineth are totally OP and 100% will destroy everyone else's fun. All in all a pretty normal situation when a new army is going to be released. It wil be interesting to see how it all turns out , but I'm pretty pumped, the Lumineth look like they are going to be a lot of fun to play. I love what they did with the Shining Company, the combined arms play style, and all the magic power and variety they can pull off. 🥳

Can you send me a link where can I find this playtesters video?

And the way I see it, Teclis looks like the most broken warscroll I ever saw. If the whole army is OK, that means that rest must be pretty trash in my eyes. And that doesnt look like good design.
If the whole balance is done based on rock-paper-scissors (if the enemy can threaten teclis first turn or cannot) then what is the reaosn to play? Just check the lists and go to lunch.
 

[whispersofblood]

1 hour ago, ZLee Syn said:

Can you send me a link where can I find this playtesters video?

And the way I see it, Teclis looks like the most broken warscroll I ever saw. If the whole army is OK, that means that rest must be pretty trash in my eyes. And that doesnt look like good design.
If the whole balance is done based on rock-paper-scissors (if the enemy can threaten teclis first turn or cannot) then what is the reaosn to play? Just check the lists and go to lunch.
 

Teclis isn't that good. 

[Chumphammer]

1 hour ago, ZLee Syn said:

Can you send me a link where can I find this playtesters video?

And the way I see it, Teclis looks like the most broken warscroll I ever saw. If the whole army is OK, that means that rest must be pretty trash in my eyes. And that doesnt look like good design.
If the whole balance is done based on rock-paper-scissors (if the enemy can threaten teclis first turn or cannot) then what is the reaosn to play? Just check the lists and go to lunch.
 

 

 

[ZLee Syn]

Just now, Chumphammer said:

 

 

Thanks. Already found that. But I take it as hilarious that they put this as a note under video

New rules that we really like are;
a spell that causes an opponent to spend double command points.
fighting twice in a row.
automatically casting spells.
shooting without seeing a target

Because I feel like those are exaclty the things that are problematic.

[Chumphammer]

1 hour ago, TeclisGod said:

Yeah that is true 5 dawnriders is around 10 and 10 dawnriders is around 20 wounds against 4+ with Hysh. The only reason I am running a larger unit instead of 2 units of 5 is because I am trying to reduce my drops. Currently it's at 3 which is think is probably good enough.

2x5 and 10 can both work, as 2 x 5 can be better for clearing chaff units. Issue as stated is drops with Teclis. i really think you need to be looking at a 2 or 3 drop list with Teclis to try and lock in that 1st turn choice.

I like 10 also for taking ona bigger unit or monster (though both can with the lighting reflex rules) but 1 bigger unit is better to throw buffs on. 10 can be a great wall if you have the 5+fnp on them and ethereal. Also, do they get the -1 to hit also if they dont run and charge/have 3 models touching?

[ZLee Syn]

6 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

Teclis isn't that good. 

I think that If you give a caster amazing spelllore and basicaly say that he can cast any 4 of them with very low chance of failing againstmost of the armies looks quite strong

[Gecktron]

1 hour ago, ZLee Syn said:

Can you send me a link where can I find this playtesters video?

And the way I see it, Teclis looks like the most broken warscroll I ever saw. If the whole army is OK, that means that rest must be pretty trash in my eyes. And that doesnt look like good design.
If the whole balance is done based on rock-paper-scissors (if the enemy can threaten teclis first turn or cannot) then what is the reaosn to play? Just check the lists and go to lunch.

They probably meant the bad dice podcast: http://baddice.co.uk/lumineth-realm-lords-review-with-the-play-testers/

To summarize their thoughts about Teclis a little: He is strong, and he will most likely be a centerpiece/linchpin for the faction at the start since he is pretty straightforward in what he does compared to the rest of the army, but he has his weaknesses. They think once people get a hang of the army they will slowly pivot away from him and make more use of the other elements of the army. 

They made a great point. Lumineth are all about balancing your resources. You cant go all out with big toys or you lack the man to hold your objectives and screen, you cant go all out Sentinel spam or you cant threaten the enemies objectives, and so and so on. 

I recommend listening to that episode. 

[Chumphammer]

1 minute ago, ZLee Syn said:

I think that If you give a caster amazing spelllore and basicaly say that he can cast any 4 of them with very low chance of failing againstmost of the armies looks quite strong

Casting is 1 phase of the game. He is terrible in combat. 10 Khinari life takers can take him out and thats 160pts that drop on him turn 2. 

So yeah, he dominates the magic phase, but you need to be very careful

 

[ZLee Syn]

1 minute ago, Chumphammer said:

Casting is 1 phase of the game. He is terrible in combat. 10 Khinari life takers can take him out and thats 160pts that drop on him turn 2. 

So yeah, he dominates the magic phase, but you need to be very careful

 

But the problem is that he dominates the magic phase with a style that provides no counterplay whatsoever. He basicaly say that his knights move 28 inches for free.
Imagine if StD teleport was autocast for example. That would be in my opinion quite broken because you can be sure it works.
Its quite a diference between beeing sure something works or beeing very likely and it beeing down to chance

 

[ZLee Syn]

12 minutes ago, Gecktron said:

They probably meant the bad dice podcast: http://baddice.co.uk/lumineth-realm-lords-review-with-the-play-testers/

To summarize their thoughts about Teclis a little: He is strong, and he will most likely be a centerpiece/linchpin for the faction at the start since he is pretty straightforward in what he does compared to the rest of the army, but he has his weaknesses. They think once people get a hang of the army they will slowly pivot away from him and make more use of the other elements of the army. 

They made a great point. Lumineth are all about balancing your resources. You cant go all out with big toys or you lack the man to hold your objectives and screen, you cant go all out Sentinel spam or you cant threaten the enemies objectives, and so and so on. 

I recommend listening to that episode. 

Yea, I am already listening to that. But I dont know if I should take that seriously when the first thing I saw was their note including what they like about the book. And those are exactly the things I think are bad for the game and most problematic.

Edit: maybe I am wrong. But I am playing this game for some time now and I never thought that new book was OP just from leaks. But here I cannot help myself.
The problem is not that it is unbeatable. But that some armies cannot punish their weakness simply because there is nothing in their book that has that option

Edited June 22, 2020 by ZLee Syn

[Acid_Nine]

So talking about teclis aside, does anyone struggle to place where Stoneguard would fit into a list that is not the mountain specific one? for like, 40pts more the wardens can have more attackss, same number of wounds, Bigger board presence and is a wizard that can cast a spell that lets them ignore rend or a spell that lets them get mortal wounds better. just seems to be more utility there to be honest. I think the mountain spirits and stone mages are great, but I think the guard is a bit lacking without them having magic...

[whispersofblood]

15 minutes ago, ZLee Syn said:

I think that If you give a caster amazing spelllore and basicaly say that he can cast any 4 of them with very low chance of failing against most of the armies looks quite strong

A model's worth isn't soley determine by what it can do, but also by what it cannot, and what it forces on you.

[Gecktron]

1 minute ago, Acid_Nine said:

So talking about teclis aside, does anyone struggle to place where Stoneguard would fit into a list that is not the mountain specific one? for like, 40pts more the wardens can have more attackss, same number of wounds, Bigger board presence and is a wizard that can cast a spell that lets them ignore rend or a spell that lets them get mortal wounds better. just seems to be more utility there to be honest. I think the mountain spirits and stone mages are great, but I think the guard is a bit lacking without them having magic...

The one big strenght they have is that they can move across the board and charge without losing most of their abilities. 

But I think they need at least one mountain spirit and a stonemage to make use of their full potential. 
(I also think we are still missing something. Right now, there is no reason why one shouldnt take the mountain stance every turn. Maybe there is one more stance on the same page as the tectonic force ability?) 

[Tiberius501]

2 minutes ago, Gecktron said:

The one big strenght they have is that they can move across the board and charge without losing most of their abilities. 

But I think they need at least one mountain spirit and a stonemage to make use of their full potential. 
(I also think we are still missing something. Right now, there is no reason why one shouldnt take the mountain stance every turn. Maybe there is one more stance on the same page as the tectonic force ability?) 

The Stonemage has stance she can put on them, to give them an additional -1 rend.