Aos 2 - Lumineth Realm-Lords Discussion

[Feii]

Well Teclis is not a beatstick he isnt archaon. He is a utility value monster. 

 

I dobt think you should be playing any other behemots uf you decide to bring him to the table sadly. 

 

You say that the big cow did his job but lumineth spearsnwith Ethereal Blessing and so on would have traded with the mancrushers in a better more point efficient way. 

 

[Jeremierty]

13 minutes ago, Feii said:

Well Teclis is not a beatstick he isnt archaon. He is a utility value monster. 

 

I dobt think you should be playing any other behemots uf you decide to bring him to the table sadly. 

 

You say that the big cow did his job but lumineth spearsnwith Ethereal Blessing and so on would have traded with the mancrushers in a better more point efficient way. 

 

Well... The utility isn't quite there.. the way I see it, Teclis can choose 4 abilities from a list of 12 that every other wizzard in your army can attempt to use + that the other player can nullify on a high dispell roll.. Katakros has 3 abilities that work all the time and are really  incredible as a force multiplier 

3 man crushers had just charged one of my 20 wardens unit with ethereal and 5+ fnp and wiped them (thx to +2 damages against unit of 20+) so teclis had to intervene and did pretty much what I expected of him.... Which was already very low considering he is a 660 model with no real buff to give, no real tankiness and no damage imput

so yeah wardens are amazing but war cows can tank and dish out the pain in my opinion

[Feii]

36 minutes ago, Jeremierty said:

Well... The utility isn't quite there.. the way I see it, Teclis can choose 4 abilities from a list of 12 that every other wizzard in your army can attempt to use + that the other player can nullify on a high dispell roll.. Katakros has 3 abilities that work all the time and are really  incredible as a force multiplier 

3 man crushers had just charged one of my 20 wardens unit with ethereal and 5+ fnp and wiped them (thx to +2 damages against unit of 20+) so teclis had to intervene and did pretty much what I expected of him.... Which was already very low considering he is a 660 model with no real buff to give, no real tankiness and no damage imput

so yeah wardens are amazing but war cows can tank and dish out the pain in my opinion

That was statistically extremely unlucky to happen even with the bonus for 20+ units

 

has he failed all the stomping charge rolls? (When they charge it is mandatory to roll for D3 damage so if he managed to kill 1 of your models he would have lost the bonus for 20+ models) 

[Jeremierty]

23 minutes ago, Feii said:

That was statistically extremely unlucky to happen even with the bonus for 20+ units

 

has he failed all the stomping charge rolls? (When they charge it is mandatory to roll for D3 damage so if he managed to kill 1 of your models he would have lost the bonus for 20+ models) 

Yes I rolled 3 5+ fnp.... XD but he would have cleaned my unit even with only a +1 to damage for hitting a unit with 10+ models 

[Ragest]

I don't bring Teclis into my lists. 

He costs just 80 points (with Umbral to justify he's not just a full supportive character) less than full alarith Battallion (Stonemage+Avalenor+2x 5 Stoneguards) that gives you access a the two alarith spells you are going to use mostly if you place the mage in Zaitrec or you get 2 units of guys that ignore rend 2, RR saves, can hit with -2 rend and take enemies away from your sensible pieces or points.

And Teclis lists, that are surely powerful, are so dependant on the centerpiece to work well, that every mistake is heavily punished and you are going to rely in your tricky mortals at 5/6 or the D3/D6 carousel in battleplans with far deployments and spread points.

Edited February 8, 2021 by Ragest

[LuminethMage]

4 hours ago, Jeremierty said:

Well... The utility isn't quite there.. the way I see it, Teclis can choose 4 abilities from a list of 12 that every other wizzard in your army can attempt to use + that the other player can nullify on a high dispell roll.. Katakros has 3 abilities that work all the time and are really  incredible as a force multiplier 

3 man crushers had just charged one of my 20 wardens unit with ethereal and 5+ fnp and wiped them (thx to +2 damages against unit of 20+) so teclis had to intervene and did pretty much what I expected of him.... Which was already very low considering he is a 660 model with no real buff to give, no real tankiness and no damage imput

so yeah wardens are amazing but war cows can tank and dish out the pain in my opinion

How good Teclis is, is debatable, but he doesn't lack utility. None of your Wizards can cast all the spells that Teclis can, a) no single one of them has access to all of them, and more importantly b) they have to chose which ones the bring in every battle. That's one of the big advantages of having Teclis, you can use any spell you need on the fly, it's a big part of the utility he offers, because you always have the more situational spells on-hand. His Warscroll spells are also great, Protection of Hysh doesn't come close to PoT (base size plus double radius), and you don't have a single damage spell like Searing White Light in the LRL spells lores so far.

If we get a new Lore of Wind, this utility will only increase. I'd wait to judge Teclis until the 2nd wave is out. He was definitely made with these models and abilities in mind. 

Teclis also has abilities that can't be unbound and none of your other characters have: +1 to cast, unbind, dispel (that's a force-multiplier in most Lumineth lists right there), a 4+ spell invulnerability (so against many MW you have 4+ and 5+ to ignore them in many cases), one auto-unbind and auto-dispel every round. An auto-unbind every round is a big deal again a lot of armies.

Twinstones must be cast and can be dispelled. 

Katakros has no range attacks, can't fly and is slow. His abilities have range and other restrictions (need resources to spend on them, +1 save only works on Mortis Praetorians, some abilities go away when the companion dies etc.). 

Teclis would be a must-take model if he was just a bit more survivable. It's a difficult balance, I prefer what they have done over making him a bit too tanky, but with less abilities. It's also good in my view that Teclis is a good option, but you can build equally (or maybe even better) lists without him. If you like to use him like me, you can build good lists around him, and if not, then you don't. Same is true for his point costs. 

[OkayestDM]

1 hour ago, LuminethMage said:

Teclis would be a must-take model if he was just a bit more survivable. It's a difficult balance . . .

This is a sentiment I feel applies well to most Lumineth units, and is a theme I really appreciate. Most of the Lumineth abilities have a give-and-take quality to them. Teclis is an arcane powerhouse, but also a point-sink that isn't terribly durable for his type of hero. Shining Company offers appreciable protection, but at the cost of vital movement.

They have the potential to dish out a fair amount of mortal wounds, but most units have very few attacks, with average to poor profiles.

Stoneguard are tanky and can pack a punch, but they're slow.

The Spirit of the Mountain and Wardens are good damage dealers but work best when the enemy charges them, meaning you run the risk of taking some hits before you can make use of them.

Dawnriders will absolutely decimate standard infantry, but fold to other cavalry or line-breaker units.

Sentinels are perhaps the one unit that have the potential to be overpowered, but that's locked behind 2 spells and a possibly a 1-use (normally) ability that has a good shot of weakening them afterwards.

Eltharion . . . ok, Eltharion's just a blender - so long as you can get him into combat.

Their magic is powerful but difficult to cast, and their heroes tend to be on the frail side.

The powerful magic and crazy suite of Allegiance Abilities available to them are what really tun this army into a powerhouse. They're a toolbox faction with a lot of tools (and more incoming!). And Teclis may just be the biggest tool of all! (I'm sorry, but it was right there and if I didn't say it, somebody else was gonna.)

Teclis is the go-to unit if you want to dominate the game through magic. He shares that space with Kroak, Nagash, and the Lord of Change, and he can give each of them a run for their money. That said, against more martial factions - or at least less magically inclined - the Moontains are probably a better choice.

Edited February 8, 2021 by OkayestDM

[SirSalabean]

Hi all.

So I’ve got a decent selection of models now for Lumineth and I wasn’t sure if I need to get anymore? I have:

1 x Teclis

1 x Moontain

1 x stonemage 

1 x Cathallar 

1 x Eltharion

2 x Wardens

2 x Sentinels 

2 x Stoneguard

2 x Dawnriders

im not sure if I need anything else for an army? I got one of everything for painting.

 

also what paint scheme should I go for? I like the box art one especially the hurakan stuff on the way with the blue and yellow. I’m just unsure with the way to paint them as I can only use an airbrush to paint them as I live in a flat and I can’t find an alternative to wraithbone for an air primer. 

 

[Feii]

12 hours ago, OkayestDM said:

This is a sentiment I feel applies well to most Lumineth units, and is a theme I really appreciate. Most of the Lumineth abilities have a give-and-take quality to them. Teclis is an arcane powerhouse, but also a point-sink that isn't terribly durable for his type of hero. Shining Company offers appreciable protection, but at the cost of vital movement.

They have the potential to dish out a fair amount of mortal wounds, but most units have very few attacks, with average to poor profiles.

Stoneguard are tanky and can pack a punch, but they're slow.

The Spirit of the Mountain and Wardens are good damage dealers but work best when the enemy charges them, meaning you run the risk of taking some hits before you can make use of them.

Dawnriders will absolutely decimate standard infantry, but fold to other cavalry or line-breaker units.

Sentinels are perhaps the one unit that have the potential to be overpowered, but that's locked behind 2 spells and a possibly a 1-use (normally) ability that has a good shot of weakening them afterwards.

Eltharion . . . ok, Eltharion's just a blender - so long as you can get him into combat.

Their magic is powerful but difficult to cast, and their heroes tend to be on the frail side.

The powerful magic and crazy suite of Allegiance Abilities available to them are what really tun this army into a powerhouse. They're a toolbox faction with a lot of tools (and more incoming!). And Teclis may just be the biggest tool of all! (I'm sorry, but it was right there and if I didn't say it, somebody else was gonna.)

Teclis is the go-to unit if you want to dominate the game through magic. He shares that space with Kroak, Nagash, and the Lord of Change, and he can give each of them a run for their money. That said, against more martial factions - or at least less magically inclined - the Moontains are probably a better choice.

Lumineth are a top 3 armies right now before they get all the goodness that is coming. Would be surprised if they didnt become the next “seraphon” after their next release.

 

that being said they are the hardest army to play correctly (at the highest lvl) in the game imo

[Ragest]

Sorry but every source tells that Lumineth is top 6/7

Edited February 8, 2021 by Ragest

[Feii]

Then get better sources. They consistently go 3 0 , 4 1 in bigger TTS events where they havejust few players repping them.

[whispersofblood]

1 minute ago, Feii said:

Then get better sources. They consistently go 3 0 , 4 1 in bigger TTS events where they havejust few players repping them.

LRL are consistently represented 4-1/3-0 but also at the 2-3, 1-2 level. LRL are a toolbox faction, you generally want to be a toolbox  rather than not. But it's almost always better to just be strong.

I expect LRL to have quite mediocre winrates over the long term. It's actually a quite difficult army to play well as there are probably something like 3-4 decision more per decision an average faction is making. 

I don't think LRL are better than DoK or IDK so that already precludes them from the top 3 competitively. They aren't better than DoT, or Seraphon clearly. LRL actually struggle quite a bit against specific mid-tier factions like S2D, I'd say that depending on the player they are probably the toughest faction to beat outside the top 5. But, they are probably also the toughest faction to win with in the top 8. 

[Feii]

16 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

LRL are consistently represented 4-1/3-0 but also at the 2-3, 1-2 level. LRL are a toolbox faction, you generally want to be a toolbox  rather than not. But it's almost always better to just be strong.

I expect LRL to have quite mediocre winrates over the long term. It's actually a quite difficult army to play well as there are probably something like 3-4 decision more per decision an average faction is making. 

I don't think LRL are better than DoK or IDK so that already precludes them from the top 3 competitively. They aren't better than DoT, or Seraphon clearly. LRL actually struggle quite a bit against specific mid-tier factions like S2D, I'd say that depending on the player they are probably the toughest faction to beat outside the top 5. But, they are probably also the toughest faction to win with in the top 8. 

Ah yes the DoT the most popular tournament faction that consistently do not make top 5 these past months and good luminethplayers have a positive winrates over them. LRL had better shoeing than DoT this past weekend both in tts and real life tournament in australia

[Ragest]

1 hour ago, Feii said:

Then get better sources. They consistently go 3 0 , 4 1 in bigger TTS events where they havejust few players repping them.

So you are telling me KO, Tzeentch and Searphon, all three with more than 50% in top3, SCE Vanguard and the new pair DoK and Idonek, that are rising near 70% last months are weaker than Lumineth?

Please, send me a tournament that Lumineth won in the last 3 months. And if you want to talk about tiers and consistence, please, don't talk me about 3 match tournaments.

And I just checked Summer smash and what i saw is DoT being 2nd and LRL being 3rd tied to Dok, Seraphon, Big Waaagh, Gargants and OBR and another player being 26th, so I'm not sure where are you getting your sources.

Edited February 8, 2021 by Ragest

[whispersofblood]

56 minutes ago, Feii said:

Ah yes the DoT the most popular tournament faction that consistently do not make top 5 these past months and good luminethplayers have a positive winrates over them. LRL had better shoeing than DoT this past weekend both in tts and real life tournament in australia

That is called sample size. DoT have to contend with their own meta problems like the emergence of more Bastilidons, in an already dominant Faction. If you want to separate good LRL players since launch and good DoT players and post it here we can have a look.

[Feii]

36 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

That is called sample size. DoT have to contend with their own meta problems like the emergence of more Bastilidons, in an already dominant Faction. If you want to separate good LRL players since launch and good DoT players and post it here we can have a look.

Well precisely DoT being an older and more popular faction means worse results are less likely to happen due to newet player issue etc. 

[Feii]

1 hour ago, Ragest said:

So you are telling me KO, Tzeentch and Searphon, all three with more than 50% in top3, SCE Vanguard and the new pair DoK and Idonek, that are rising near 70% last months are weaker than Lumineth?

Please, send me a tournament that Lumineth won in the last 3 months. And if you want to talk about tiers and consistence, please, don't talk me about 3 match tournaments.

And I just checked Summer smash and what i saw is DoT being 2nd and LRL being 3rd tied to Dok, Seraphon, Big Waaagh, Gargants and OBR and another player being 26th, so I'm not sure where are you getting your sources.

Ah yes the big brain “ignore half of the input and pretend the whole srgument is flawrd because it doesnt suit my worldview” move

 

you seem to have some private stats that do not correlate with any other real statistics so feel free to enlighten us. (With something else than your anecdotal evidnce thanks)

[Ragest]

24 minutes ago, Feii said:

Ah yes the big brain “ignore half of the input and pretend the whole srgument is flawrd because it doesnt suit my worldview” move

 

you seem to have some private stats that do not correlate with any other real statistics so feel free to enlighten us. (With something else than your anecdotal evidnce thanks)

Idoneth 73,08wr in 54 matches

DoK 70,00wr in 40 matches

Seraphon 58,94wr in 143 matches

Ogor 56,94wr in 108 matches

DoT 56,06wr in 66 matches

...

KO 51,04wr in 96 matches

...

LRL 45,03wr in 117 matches

Last 3 months, physical and online tournaments around the world. Sorry I can’t send you the video atm because my meta group is still working on it, but go ahead finding somethin more accurate about meta state.

And no, I can’t take seriously stuff like the last hammertime with 80 players just having 3 matches starting with the less competitive battleplan possible and not even playin with realms or scenery rules.

[Feii]

51 minutes ago, Ragest said:

Idoneth 73,08wr in 54 matches

DoK 70,00wr in 40 matches

Seraphon 58,94wr in 143 matches

Ogor 56,94wr in 108 matches

DoT 56,06wr in 66 matches

...

KO 51,04wr in 96 matches

...

LRL 45,03wr in 117 matches

Last 3 months, physical and online tournaments around the world. Sorry I can’t send you the video atm because my meta group is still working on it, but go ahead finding somethin more accurate about meta state.

And no, I can’t take seriously stuff like the last hammertime with 80 players just having 3 matches starting with the less competitive battleplan possible and not even playin with realms or scenery rules.

Whats the winrate for Syar with teclis and no ither behemoths? Can you filter it ,please? 

[Kugane]

Can we please lower the hostility? The game is a niche community at best without toxicity. Let's not divide the community even further.

[LuminethMage]

9 hours ago, SirSalabean said:

Hi all.

So I’ve got a decent selection of models now for Lumineth and I wasn’t sure if I need to get anymore? I have:

1 x Teclis

1 x Moontain

1 x stonemage 

1 x Cathallar 

1 x Eltharion

2 x Wardens

2 x Sentinels 

2 x Stoneguard

2 x Dawnriders

im not sure if I need anything else for an army? I got one of everything for painting.

 

also what paint scheme should I go for? I like the box art one especially the hurakan stuff on the way with the blue and yellow. I’m just unsure with the way to paint them as I can only use an airbrush to paint them as I live in a flat and I can’t find an alternative to wraithbone for an air primer. 

 

I think you don’t need anything more right now. Best wait for the new units  and see which ones you like, and what kind of lists you want to build.
 

Some people recommend VMC Ivory as an alternative for Wraithbone. I have zero experience with it myself though. 

[Siegfried VII]

11 hours ago, LuminethMage said:

Some people recommend VMC Ivory as an alternative for Wraithbone. I have zero experience with it myself though. 

I have extensive experience with the Ivory.. It is a great colour (one of my favourites) but it is not quite the same as the Wraithbone.. It is more white and more bright so I would't recommend it as a substitute

 

19 hours ago, whispersofblood said:

LRL are consistently represented 4-1/3-0 but also at the 2-3, 1-2 level. LRL are a toolbox faction, you generally want to be a toolbox  rather than not. But it's almost always better to just be strong.

I expect LRL to have quite mediocre winrates over the long term. It's actually a quite difficult army to play well as there are probably something like 3-4 decision more per decision an average faction is making. 

I don't think LRL are better than DoK or IDK so that already precludes them from the top 3 competitively. They aren't better than DoT, or Seraphon clearly. LRL actually struggle quite a bit against specific mid-tier factions like S2D, I'd say that depending on the player they are probably the toughest faction to beat outside the top 5. But, they are probably also the toughest faction to win with in the top 8. 

Totally agree with you mate. I don't know where we will stand with the new wave (probably stronger), but at the  moment we are in the top 8 but not in the top 3 or 5 and it shows in the stats!

[Gaz Taylor]

+++ Mod Hat On +++
Just a reminder @Feii - we are nice to each other on this forum. So please think some more before you post as your last few comments haven’t been nice. Continue like this and I will issue points which will lead to a ban

[Grudgebearer]

On 2/8/2021 at 8:08 PM, Ragest said:

Idoneth 73,08wr in 54 matches

DoK 70,00wr in 40 matches

Seraphon 58,94wr in 143 matches

Ogor 56,94wr in 108 matches

DoT 56,06wr in 66 matches

...

KO 51,04wr in 96 matches

...

LRL 45,03wr in 117 matches

Last 3 months, physical and online tournaments around the world. Sorry I can’t send you the video atm because my meta group is still working on it, but go ahead finding somethin more accurate about meta state.

And no, I can’t take seriously stuff like the last hammertime with 80 players just having 3 matches starting with the less competitive battleplan possible and not even playin with realms or scenery rules.

Really nice data, may I ask where it could be found? Would love to See a current winrate list

thx in advance 

[Feii]

3 hours ago, Gaz Taylor said:

+++ Mod Hat On +++
Just a reminder @Feii - we are nice to each other on this forum. So please think some more before you post as your last few comments haven’t been nice. Continue like this and I will issue points which will lead to a ban

Do comments need to be nice? They were just neutral tethering to being hostile but if somebody keeps their shtick of using unsupported evidence and their feelings to make a point when there are data I just dont think I need to be soft and cuddly to people with antivaxx mindset