Sons of Behemat Discussion 👣

[Chumphammer]

Just buy a load of WWE toys, repaint them and base them

[Moogypies]

29 minutes ago, GunslingerOy said:

Does the longshanks ability let you leave combat without a retreat move?

I would say yes. 

The Warscroll Reads "When this model makes a normal move, it can ignore models that have a Wounds characteristic of 10 or less and terrain features that are less than 4" tall at their highest point. It cannot finish the move on top of another model or within 3" of an enemy model."

In the rules a "normal move" is listed as - Moves made in the movement phase are referred to as normal moves, to differentiate them from charge moves (made in the charge phase) and pile-in moves (made in the combat phase). A model making a normal move can move a distance in inches equal to or less than the Move characteristic shown on its warscroll. 

Further

"When you make a normal move for a model, no part of the move can be within 3" of an enemy unit. Units starting a normal move within 3" of an enemy unit can either remain stationary or retreat."

We IGNORE enemy models under 10 wounds, when making the normal move, thus we do not have to retreat.

 

[schwabbele]

4 minutes ago, Moogypies said:

 Units starting a normal move within 3"

I think thats the key here. You start within 3" -> you need to retreat because you are in comabt already.  That thing is only ignoring models in the context of a normal move ( and can't stop withing 3") 🤷‍♂️

[Dankboss]

7 minutes ago, Moogypies said:

I would say yes. 

The Warscroll Reads "When this model makes a normal move, it can ignore models that have a Wounds characteristic of 10 or less and terrain features that are less than 4" tall at their highest point. It cannot finish the move on top of another model or within 3" of an enemy model."

In the rules a "normal move" is listed as - Moves made in the movement phase are referred to as normal moves, to differentiate them from charge moves (made in the charge phase) and pile-in moves (made in the combat phase). A model making a normal move can move a distance in inches equal to or less than the Move characteristic shown on its warscroll. 

Further

"When you make a normal move for a model, no part of the move can be within 3" of an enemy unit. Units starting a normal move within 3" of an enemy unit can either remain stationary or retreat."

We IGNORE enemy models under 10 wounds, when making the normal move, thus we do not have to retreat.

 

Huh. I think you're on to something. Might be an FAQ point, but considering the low unit count of this army, it could well be a feature to make them more maneuverable.

[Moogypies]

2 minutes ago, schwabbele said:

I think thats the key here. You start within 3" -> you need to retreat because you are in comabt already.  That thing is only ignoring models in the context of a normal move ( and can't stop withing 3") 🤷‍♂️

A retreat is just an option of a normal move you can use. You ignore the fact there is models under when when electing to use a normal move, so do not need to use the retreat choice. 

The flavour text on the skill enforces this as the intent IMO. 
"A Mega-Gargant towers high above the battlefeld, and with its long powerful legs it can step over most obstacles."

Edited October 10, 2020 by Moogypies

[Dankboss]

RAW, I'm going to say yes, however I would expect an FAQ to say it can't, but I'd be in favor of keeping it, as it's not all that ambiguous.

[schwabbele]

you ignore the fact that he is in combat when he is wihtin 3" of an enemy model and the ability doesnt say a thing about ignoring combat. based on your logic he would never be in combat because he ignores enemy models...  anyhow that needs a faq i guess i would throw a coin

[Gwendar]

20 minutes ago, Moogypies said:

We IGNORE enemy models under 10 wounds, when making the normal move, thus we do not have to retreat.

 

Right.. because normally, you wouldn't be able to come within 3" of something or pass across models.

This interprets the same as other abilities that do the same thing, but sure, with slightly different wording. If you're in combat (within 3" of an enemy) then you still have to retreat when you move. You're only "ignoring" the rules that prevent you coming within 3" or passing across models; units with Fly (and Doomwheels as another example) do the same thing. They still are classified as retreating.

If that wasn't intended, then it likely would've read "It can still make a charge move later in that phase". Sure, maybe it needs an FAQ but I certainly won't be playing it the way you're interpreting it until then.

Edited October 10, 2020 by Gwendar

[Dankboss]

I don't think 'In combat' is actually a game state, the model is either within 3" or it isn't. Granted, GW have written wonky rules that they assumed everyone would understand, such as wounding on 1s and the Bastiladon's 1+ save.

As I said, I expect it to be FAQ'ed, but it could well be as intended.

[Moogypies]

13 minutes ago, schwabbele said:

you ignore the fact that he is in combat when he is wihtin 3" of an enemy model and the ability doesnt say a thing about ignoring combat. based on your logic he would never be in combat because he ignores enemy models...  anyhow that needs a faq i guess i would throw a coin

There is no game state of "in combat" in the rules. Just "eligible to fight when within 3" ". (Or 6 if you have the abilities)  
 

8 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

Right.. because normally, you wouldn't be able to come within 3" of something or pass across models.

This interprets the same as other abilities that do the same thing. If you're in combat (within 3" of an enemy) then you still have to retreat when you move. You're only "ignoring" the rules that prevent you coming within 3" or passing across models; units with Fly (and Doomwheels as another example) do the same thing. They still are classified as retreating.

If that wasn't intended, then it likely would've read "It can still make a charge move later in that phase". Sure, maybe it needs an FAQ but I certainly won't be playing it the way you're interpreting it until then.

"When you make a normal move for a model, no part of the move can be within 3" of an enemy unit." vs "When this model makes a normal move, it can ignore models that have a Wounds characteristic of 10 or less" vs "Flying- If the warscroll for a model says that the model can fly, it can pass across models and terrain features as if they were not there when it makes any type of move." 

Flying units have to retreat still I agree, because they do not IGNORE the units they are eligible to fight. 
Went and read the Doomwheels warscroll as I don't play skaven, and agree that has to retreat also, as it doesn't state to ignore movement restrictions. 

All of these examples must end outside of 3" of an enemy unit still.

It may well need to come to an FAQ, but as written I cannot see why they do not ignore this restriction, and I think to avoid getting completely bogged down by screens and unable to damage our way out (Literally!) this is something we need.

Edited October 10, 2020 by Moogypies

[Dankboss]

If this is the intended use, and it could be, Mega Gargants just got a whole lot better.

[Moogypies]

We also need confirmation that the Kraken Eater can cast endless spells, after he didn't get the wizard keyword yet the head designer said we can use endless spells when using the relic ^^'

I'd also like clearing up- 

"Designer’s Note: If the battleplan being played does not follow the normal rules for controlling objectives, you can pick whether to use this battle trait or to follow the rules from the battleplan each time control of the objective is determined."
Does our capturing rule of 10/20 supersede the battleplan specified capture conditions (Leader or battleline) if we choose not to use it? Otherwise what is the point if it doesn't?

Edited October 10, 2020 by Moogypies

[Dankboss]

3 minutes ago, Moogypies said:

We also need confirmation that the Kraken Eater can cast endless spells, after he didn't get the wizard keyword yet the head designer said we can use endless spells when using the relic ^^'

I'd also like clearing up- 

"Designer’s Note: If the battleplan being played does not follow the normal rules for controlling objectives, you can pick whether to use this battle trait or to follow the rules from the battleplan each time control of the objective is determined."
Does our capturing rule of 10/20 supersede the battleplan specified capture conditions (Leader or battleline) if we choose not to use it? Otherwise what is the point if it doesn't?

Future proofing?

[Moogypies]

I do whole-heartedly suggest if people agree with me or not to email - AoSFAQ@gwplc.com with the following questions so we can get it cleared up.

Title- Sons of Behemat Rules FAQ

"Does the Mega-Gargants "Longshanks" ability allow them to ignore models within 3" when making a normal move, allowing them to walk over units without making a "retreat" normal move? "

"Does the Kraken-Eater gain the Wizard keyword and the ability to use Endless Spells when taking the "glowy lantern" artefact of power?"

"When using the rule "Mighter Makes Rightier" or "Get rid of Them" allegiance traits and you opt to use these rules in place of a battleplans default, does this rule supersede the units inability to capture the objective. For example only Battleline units can capture objectives in the battleplan "The better part of valor." "

 

[Boar]

Gotta say I am not convinced guys, I mean maybe intention is different and it will be FAQ:

Core Rulebook p. 229

"Units starting a normal move within 3" of enemy unit can either remain stationary or retreat".

So just by starting within 3" and choosing to move you are automatically retreating. And granted while Gargant makes it`s move it can ignore models, it`s however never specified that it ignore this rule.

 

[novakai]

running a full group of Mancrusher sounds fun and pretty strong but there is going to be some wound keeping when running them because of the bracketing

following how unit rules work, if one is injured that one model get weaker, but  the other two are basically at full strength and are kind of protected from being bracketed by the injured gargant. the downside is that if one Gargant is bracketed you have to make separate rolls for some of its abilities and attacks.

running three you can do up to 3D3 mortal wound to one unit and get three chances of using the instakill ability on low wound models. at full strength they get 30 clubs attacks 

Edited October 10, 2020 by novakai

[Gwendar]

1 hour ago, Moogypies said:

There is no game state of "in combat" in the rules. Just "eligible to fight when within 3" ". (Or 6 if you have the abilities)  

Flying units have to retreat still I agree, because they do not IGNORE the units they are eligible to fight. 

It may well need to come to an FAQ, but as written I cannot see why they do not ignore this restriction, and I think to avoid getting completely bogged down by screens and unable to damage our way out (Literally!) this is something we need.

That doesn't matter, what matters is that if you start within 3", then you have to either retreat or remain stationary. If their rule was meant to explicitly counter that, it would have said that; I don't think that's the kind of thing you simple forget to write out.

They only ignore units when moving, because without the FLY keyword then they would not normally be able to pass over models. While it doesn't say "pass over as if it has FLY" the end all is that they start a move within 3". By your logic, you're saying they're never considered to be in combat.

40k Knights don't have this restriction as has been discussed I believe, but this isn't 40k and Gargants may or may not have this similar rule. It's a different game.. getting bogged down by 40 Clanrats should be perfectly acceptable and I'm more concerned for their overall survivability and low damage than I am about them getting stuck in combat.

It just seems like they replaced "as if they weren't there" with "Ignore" because it's less words.. I think you're reading into this a bit much.

Edited October 10, 2020 by Gwendar

[Emperor of Zhong]

I have hurt my wallet purchasing my first large lad.

The good news i warmed enough points to get $5 off my next pair of less large lads. Which in turn will earn me enough to get $5 of my next pair..and so on and so on. 

 

Though i I suppose I should look into deciding between 

1 and 9

2 and 6

or 

3 and 3

 

[Dankboss]

I want to say 2 and 6, as you still want Heroes, and 1 won't be enough.

[Tropical Ghost General]

What's going on with the bonegrinder? No review I've seen has mentioned him. 

Also, on the subject of reviews, are there any that aren't just adverts for the new book/models? The facehammer one was laughable as a battletome review. 

[Baron Klatz]

Pretty sure these are his replacements.

Also check out Goonhammer for a good review of them.

4 hours ago, Moogypies said:

We also need confirmation that the Kraken Eater can cast endless spells, after he didn't get the wizard keyword yet the head designer said we can use endless spells when using the relic ^^'

I really hope this is the case. Not only for meta but it'd multiply the army flavors. Like people with chaos gargants could do the Chaos Menagerie mercenary again but this time as a force and the menagerie is twisted Living Spells.

Also also, people using imperial knights as Mega-gargant armor is gonna look swag.

 

[kaaras]

So, to bring the tone down a little, anyone seen the pre-order prices on this thing? $320 smackers here down under... the hype train has been derailed. Might be better elsewhere but that is steep, even if the model is awesome...

[Reuben Parker]

26 minutes ago, kaaras said:

So, to bring the tone down a little, anyone seen the pre-order prices on this thing? $320 smackers here down under... the hype train has been derailed. Might be better elsewhere but that is steep, even if the model is awesome...

It’s expensive all round maybe Aus is worse. However it’s still around how much you would pay for any other army. 1100 odd Canadian got me 2 mega, 6 Gargants, tome and cards today which is about standard for a 2k army. 
 

I know pricing seems to be a big deal for a lot of people as it’s more than an imperial knight. I never worry too much on that side of things I more think about how much the entire army costs rather than individual box set prices. 

[novakai]

also painting less models to get a full army is also a big plus

considering people spend more on Sport tickets these day, i don't think pricing a big deal to GW customer base

Edited October 11, 2020 by novakai

[Baron Klatz]

I've seen some ideas to magnetize their parts since they're easy to assemble.

Couldn't kitbash them as much but that'd be pretty nifty. Mega-gargant version of the magnetized Fyreslayer riders so you can use all the parts and change up your army strategy on the fly before battle.