AoS 2 - Slaves to Darkness 2 Discussion

[Tizianolol]

Guys a question about gorebeast chariot:

At the end of combat i do a normal move and at 3+ d6 mw to enemy unit i passed across. Can I finish that normal move within 3" of another enemy unit? Thx:)

[Lokd0wn]

On 12/14/2022 at 6:52 PM, Bayul said:

So Arcane Tome for a Cabalist hero is redundant?

 

On 12/14/2022 at 8:04 PM, Grimrock said:

Yeah, but specifically only for Heroes that aren't wizards to start with. It seems like you can still double dip on a sorcerer lord and take it from  a 1 cast wizard to a 3 cast. Not sure why GW felt the need to target that one specifically but oh well. 

Everything else looks more or less like I expected. Thankfully they didn't mess with any of the Daemon Prince traits so my plans for running despoilers still work. I'm still hoping they update the other chaos FAQ's to close out the weird mark wording, but the book hasn't even been fully released yet so no rush. 

Looking at it, it seems to me that the intention is to prevent a non wizard hero from being able to double dip and become a 3 cast wizard. Two casts is still possible I think? 

[Rors]

2 hours ago, Tizianolol said:

Guys a question about gorebeast chariot:

At the end of combat i do a normal move and at 3+ d6 mw to enemy unit i passed across. Can I finish that normal move within 3" of another enemy unit? Thx:)

Nope, normal moves cannot end within 3 of an enemy unit. You can however move 0.5 inches forward then 8.5 inches back and still roll for mortals.

I haven't played with them much but I've found that's often easier to do then go straight forward because of that 3 inch no go bubble. It's often a challenge to get across the unit you charged and keep away from other stuff.

[ibel]

8 hours ago, Lokd0wn said:

Two casts is still possible I think? 

Of course.

If u take a Tzeenth Daemon Prince in a Cabalit List. In his HeroAction is ecxactly written what happen if he is already a Wizzard and go for his Heroaction in your own Herophase.

And 3 Cast is Possibel für a Sorcerer with Arcane Tome in Cabalitst or not ?!

[Bayul]

9 hours ago, Lokd0wn said:

Looking at it, it seems to me that the intention is to prevent a non wizard hero from being able to double dip and become a 3 cast wizard. Two casts is still possible I think? 

How do you come up with these numbers? Blasphemous Rituals plus Arcane Tome on a non-WIZARD hero results in 1 cast. Where does the second cast come from? It's certainly not on the warscroll.
  

30 minutes ago, ibel said:

Of course.

If u take a Tzeenth Daemon Prince in a Cabalit List. In his HeroAction is ecxactly written what happen if he is already a Wizzard and go for his Heroaction in your own Herophase.

And 3 Cast is Possibel für a Sorcerer with Arcane Tome in Cabalitst or not ?!

You are missing the point entirely. We are talking about non-WIZARD heros.

Edited December 16, 2022 by Bayul

[NotWhiteFang]

On 12/11/2022 at 12:30 PM, Ravinsild said:

Had 2 games tonight. First game against Hedonites of Slaneesh, and the second against Clan Skyre of Skaven. I ran with this list.

++ **Pitched Battle GHB 2022** 2,000 (Chaos - Slaves to Darkness) [1,950pts] ++

+ Core Battalion +

Core Battalion: Warlord: Extra Enhancement: Artefacts of Power

Slaves to Darkness Core Battalion: Chaos Warband: Unified

+ Leader +

Chaos Lord [115pts]: Mark of Khorne, Reaperblade and Daemonbound Steel, Warlord - 2-4 Sub-Commanders

Chaos Lord on Karkadrak [220pts]: Chaos Warband - 1 Leader, Mark of Khorne

Chaos Sorcerer Lord [120pts]: Daemonic Speed, Mark of Nurgle, Warlord - 2-4 Sub-Commanders
. Arcane Tome

Chaos Sorcerer Lord [120pts]: Chaotic Conduit, Mark of Nurgle, Warlord - 2-4 Sub-Commanders

Slaves to Darkness Daemon Prince [195pts]: Daemonic Axe, General, Mark of Chaos Undivided, Radiance of Dark Glory, Vial of Mantivore Venom, Warlord - 1-2 Commanders, Wings

+ Battleline +

Chaos Chosen [240pts]: 5 Chaos Chosen, Mark of Khorne, The Banner of Rage, Warlord - 1-2 Troops

Chaos Knights [230pts]: 5 Chaos Knights, Chaos Warband - 4-8 Other Units, Ensorcelled Warhammer, Mark of Khorne, Musician, Standard Bearer

Chaos Knights [230pts]: 5 Chaos Knights, Chaos Warband - 4-8 Other Units, Ensorcelled Warhammer, Mark of Khorne, Musician, Standard Bearer

Chaos Warriors [220pts]: 10 Chaos Warriors, Chaos Warband - 4-8 Other Units, Hornblower, Mark of Nurgle, Murderous Weapons, Standard Bearer, The Eroding Icon

Chaos Warriors [220pts]: 10 Chaos Warriors, Chaos Warband - 4-8 Other Units, Hornblower, Mark of Nurgle, Murderous Weapons, Standard Bearer

+ Allegiance +

Allegiance
. Allegiance: Slaves to Darkness: Host of the Everchosen

+ Game Options +

Game Type: 2000 Points - Battlehost

Grand Strategy: Defend What's Ours

+ Malign Sorcery +

Endless Spell: Eightfold Doom-Sigil [40pts]

++ Total: [1,950pts] ++

Couple of thoughts on your list:

Daemon Prince is unfortunatenly poop. He does literally no damage despite being this thing that all Chaos Mortals aspire to ascend to. The only reason I would ever bring one is to support your other troops to deny wards by marking him Nurgle and using the heroic action. Vial of the Manticore Venom does nothing when he's already so weak in combat. I would put Conquerer's Crown on him and possibly Bolstered by Chaos to make him tougher and add another support layer with Roar, maybe pick Not to be Denied so you can spam his heroic action while using finest hour/CP generation on another hero, alternatively have another general all together. 

I think 2 CSL is overkill and a bit of redundancy. The primary point of the CSL is to apply Daemonic Power to a hammer unit. Arcane Tome + Master of Magic is pretty awesome to allow him to 3D6 cast his 2 spells. 

I think the two Chaos Lords are kinda meh, especially if you take Mark of Khorne anyways. To me the point of the Chaos Lord on foot is to be Slaanesh marked so you have a bodyguarded hero give your foot troops the run + charge command. The guys on Karkadrak/Horse is to make a chain reaction where they charge in and fight first, pull your Knights into activation right away and then you activate with a third unit before the opponent gets to fight. Otherwise they are kinda weak. 

You need to reinforce Chosen. 5s are just too weak. 10 is significantly harder to kill and if you play Host of the Everchosen you are rallying these bad boys on a 5+. 

I would also suggest to reinforce Warriors. 10 can be alright, 20 becomes an impassable wall, especially in Nurgle. If a serious hammer gets to them and kills enough, if you can pull models from the front and rally them ack the following turn (assuming you removed enough models to no longer be within 3").

If you struggle a lot against shooting armies then Tzeentch banner on something like 10 Chosen or 10 Knights is pretty legit and makes them near impossible for the opponent to stop.

 

All in all I just think you got some points tied up in not very efficient heroes and I think you are trying to go too wide with units when especially Host of the Everchosen really favours reinforced units when rallying on 5+. 

Edited December 16, 2022 by NotWhiteFang

[Ravinsild]

52 minutes ago, NotWhiteFang said:

Couple of thoughts on your list:

Daemon Prince is unfortunatenly poop. He does literally no damage despite being this thing that all Chaos Mortals aspire to ascend to. The only reason I would ever bring one is to support your other troops to deny wards by marking him Nurgle and using the heroic action. Vial of the Manticore Venom does nothing when he's already so weak in combat. I would put Conquerer's Crown on him and possibly Bolstered by Chaos to make him tougher and add another support layer with Roar, maybe pick Not to be Denied so you can spam his heroic action while using finest hour/CP generation on another hero, alternatively have another general all together. 

I think 2 CSL is overkill and a bit of redundancy. The primary point of the CSL is to apply Daemonic Power to a hammer unit. Arcane Tome + Master of Magic is pretty awesome to allow him to 3D6 cast his 2 spells. 

I think the two Chaos Lords are kinda meh, especially if you take Mark of Khorne anyways. To me the point of the Chaos Lord on foot is to be Slaanesh marked so you have a bodyguarded hero give your foot troops the run + charge command. The guys on Karkadrak/Horse is to make a chain reaction where they charge in and fight first, pull your Knights into activation right away and then you activate with a third unit before the opponent gets to fight. Otherwise they are kinda weak. 

You need to reinforce Chosen. 5s are just too weak. 10 is significantly harder to kill and if you play Host of the Everchosen you are rallying these bad boys on a 5+. 

I would also suggest to reinforce Warriors. 10 can be alright, 20 becomes an impassable wall, especially in Nurgle. If a serious hammer gets to them and kills enough, if you can pull models from the front and rally them ack the following turn (assuming you removed enough models to no longer be within 3").

If you struggle a lot against shooting armies then Tzeentch banner on something like 10 Chosen or 10 Knights is pretty legit and makes them near impossible for the opponent to stop.

 

All in all I just think you got some points tied up in not very efficient heroes and I think you are trying to go too wide with units when especially Host of the Everchosen really favours reinforced units when rallying on 5+. 

Bro. Cabalist. That’s the move. Instead of using the Warlord for an additional Artefact.. for Arcane Tome… change to Cabalist, get the same thing and spend that on the Ensorcelled Banner. I am not good at using the 5+ rally thing, but I can sure use 6 spell casts.

Flaming Weapon on Daemonic Prince, Chaotic Conduit on Darkoath Chieftan Lul, then probably Mystic Shield + Daemonic Speed on one Lord, and Binding Damnation (fight last) and Daemonic Strength on… something. Varanguard probably and All Out Attack on Chosen with the +1 to wound banner. Perfect.

The only thought is trading Cannot be Denied, which I can use the Heroic Action for 3d6 Casting Rolls, and then follow up with Daemon Prince remove Ward Rolls, or get an extra CP or whatever. 

Or Master of Magic to re-roll some casts on one of the Sorc Lords… because Daemonic Power and Daemonic Speed are clutch.

++ **Pitched Battle GHB 2022** 2,000 (Chaos - Slaves to Darkness) [1,990pts] ++

+ Core Battalion +

Core Battalion: Warlord: Extra Enhancement: Unique Enhancement

Slaves to Darkness Core Battalion: Chaos Warband: Unified

+ Leader +

Chaos Sorcerer Lord [120pts]: Chaotic Conduit, Daemonic Speed, Mark of Nurgle, Warlord - 2-4 Sub-Commanders

Chaos Sorcerer Lord [120pts]: Binding Damnation, Daemonic Speed, Mark of Nurgle, Warlord - 2-4 Sub-Commanders

Darkoath Chieftain [95pts]: Chaos Warband - 1 Leader

Slaves to Darkness Daemon Prince [195pts]: Daemonic Axe, General, Mark of Nurgle, Not to be Denied, The Conquerer's Crown, Warlord - 1-2 Commanders, Wings

+ Battleline +

Chaos Warriors [220pts]: 10 Chaos Warriors, Chaos Warband - 4-8 Other Units, Hornblower, Mark of Nurgle, Murderous Weapons, Standard Bearer, The Eroding Icon

Chaos Warriors [220pts]: 10 Chaos Warriors, Chaos Warband - 4-8 Other Units, Hornblower, Mark of Nurgle, Murderous Weapons, Standard Bearer

Darkoath Savagers [100pts]: 10 Darkoath Savagers, Chaos Warband - 4-8 Other Units

Darkoath Savagers [100pts]: 10 Darkoath Savagers, Chaos Warband - 4-8 Other Units

+ Other +

Chaos Chosen [240pts]: 5 Chaos Chosen, Chaos Warband - 4-8 Other Units, Mark of Khorne, The Banner of Rage

Varanguard [580pts]: 6 Varanguard, 4x Daemonforged Blade, 2x Ensorcelled Weapon, Mark of Khorne, Reinforced, Warlord - 1-2 Troops

+ Allegiance +

Allegiance
. Allegiance: Slaves to Darkness: Cabalists

+ Game Options +

Game Type: 2000 Points - Battlehost

Grand Strategy: Take What's Theirs

++ Total: [1,990pts] ++

I have found I really enjoy Chaos Sorcerer Lords. Being able to spread Oracular Vision around is clutch. Having Darkoath Screens for my Varanguard and Chosen will be huge I think, as well as just more bodies to contest. I had a really hard time even MSU on a map with 8 objective points. On maps with say 2-3 objectives maybe it’s less of an issue, but even on one map with 3 diff Objectives sending a unit of warriors to hold it there and another to the middle was huge. One was backed up by Chosen and the other backed up by knights.

Unfortunately my opponent made no less than a 9 on all his charge rolls so I got deleted badly, but if he had had worse rolls and not double turned me it would have been better. I use MSU for contesting power. 

The Chosen probably are better reinforced but even if I drop a chaos sorcerer lord it still only buys me 230 points. I’d be at 2010 if I tried to reinforce. 
 

 

[Biboune]

3 hours ago, Ravinsild said:

Bro. Cabalist. That’s the move. Instead of using the Warlord for an additional Artefact.. for Arcane Tome… change to Cabalist, get the same thing and spend that on the Ensorcelled Banner. I am not good at using the 5+ rally thing, but I can sure use 6 spell casts.

Flaming Weapon on Daemonic Prince, Chaotic Conduit on Darkoath Chieftan Lul, then probably Mystic Shield + Daemonic Speed on one Lord, and Binding Damnation (fight last) and Daemonic Strength on… something. Varanguard probably and All Out Attack on Chosen with the +1 to wound banner. Perfect.

The only thought is trading Cannot be Denied, which I can use the Heroic Action for 3d6 Casting Rolls, and then follow up with Daemon Prince remove Ward Rolls, or get an extra CP or whatever. 

Or Master of Magic to re-roll some casts on one of the Sorc Lords… because Daemonic Power and Daemonic Speed are clutch.

++ **Pitched Battle GHB 2022** 2,000 (Chaos - Slaves to Darkness) [1,990pts] ++

+ Core Battalion +

Core Battalion: Warlord: Extra Enhancement: Unique Enhancement

Slaves to Darkness Core Battalion: Chaos Warband: Unified

+ Leader +

Chaos Sorcerer Lord [120pts]: Chaotic Conduit, Daemonic Speed, Mark of Nurgle, Warlord - 2-4 Sub-Commanders

Chaos Sorcerer Lord [120pts]: Binding Damnation, Daemonic Speed, Mark of Nurgle, Warlord - 2-4 Sub-Commanders

Darkoath Chieftain [95pts]: Chaos Warband - 1 Leader

Slaves to Darkness Daemon Prince [195pts]: Daemonic Axe, General, Mark of Nurgle, Not to be Denied, The Conquerer's Crown, Warlord - 1-2 Commanders, Wings

+ Battleline +

Chaos Warriors [220pts]: 10 Chaos Warriors, Chaos Warband - 4-8 Other Units, Hornblower, Mark of Nurgle, Murderous Weapons, Standard Bearer, The Eroding Icon

Chaos Warriors [220pts]: 10 Chaos Warriors, Chaos Warband - 4-8 Other Units, Hornblower, Mark of Nurgle, Murderous Weapons, Standard Bearer

Darkoath Savagers [100pts]: 10 Darkoath Savagers, Chaos Warband - 4-8 Other Units

Darkoath Savagers [100pts]: 10 Darkoath Savagers, Chaos Warband - 4-8 Other Units

+ Other +

Chaos Chosen [240pts]: 5 Chaos Chosen, Chaos Warband - 4-8 Other Units, Mark of Khorne, The Banner of Rage

Varanguard [580pts]: 6 Varanguard, 4x Daemonforged Blade, 2x Ensorcelled Weapon, Mark of Khorne, Reinforced, Warlord - 1-2 Troops

+ Allegiance +

Allegiance
. Allegiance: Slaves to Darkness: Cabalists

+ Game Options +

Game Type: 2000 Points - Battlehost

Grand Strategy: Take What's Theirs

++ Total: [1,990pts] ++

I have found I really enjoy Chaos Sorcerer Lords. Being able to spread Oracular Vision around is clutch. Having Darkoath Screens for my Varanguard and Chosen will be huge I think, as well as just more bodies to contest. I had a really hard time even MSU on a map with 8 objective points. On maps with say 2-3 objectives maybe it’s less of an issue, but even on one map with 3 diff Objectives sending a unit of warriors to hold it there and another to the middle was huge. One was backed up by Chosen and the other backed up by knights.

Unfortunately my opponent made no less than a 9 on all his charge rolls so I got deleted badly, but if he had had worse rolls and not double turned me it would have been better. I use MSU for contesting power. 

The Chosen probably are better reinforced but even if I drop a chaos sorcerer lord it still only buys me 230 points. I’d be at 2010 if I tried to reinforce. 
 

 

Why do you take 2 daemonic speed?

And why taking the mark of nurlge on the chaos sorcerer lords? Universal could help if one of them casts Chaotic Conduit on himself.

I think 1 chaos sorcerer lord could be drop for 1 chaos lord with a retinue of chaos warriors.

I would like to try a cabalist chaos lord with the idolator command trait. As he can't cast 2 spells, may be cast a spell and a pray, like damnation, could be nice. And it would give his chaos mark to the Darkoath Savagers of your list.

[Ravinsild]

1 hour ago, Biboune said:

Why do you take 2 daemonic speed?

And why taking the mark of nurlge on the chaos sorcerer lords? Universal could help if one of them casts Chaotic Conduit on himself.

I think 1 chaos sorcerer lord could be drop for 1 chaos lord with a retinue of chaos warriors.

I would like to try a cabalist chaos lord with the idolator command trait. As he can't cast 2 spells, may be cast a spell and a pray, like damnation, could be nice. And it would give his chaos mark to the Darkoath Savagers of your list.

Yeah that’s definitely a thought. Chaos Lord just doesn’t seem worth it, his whole chaos warriors or chosen fight immediately thing might have more value in this list though. The idea I had before was a chaos lord on daemonic mount, and knights with a chaos lord and chosen, so it would go Chaos Lord on DM Fight First > Chaos Knights fight immediately > normal activation chaos lord fights > chaos chosen fight immediately… but I could just skip the chaos lord part and have the chosen fight immediately.

Also Darkoath are not Cultist Keyword and therefore do not actually benefit from Idolator Lord. They are Hardlocked as Undivided. The retinue doesn’t seem particularly useful to me as I have experimented with a Chaos Lord across 3 games and he just wasn’t that good and dies easily. One game Sigvald deepstruck and wiped him, another game he got shot to death from Stormvermin and another Blissbarb Archers. 

To answer your questions I imagine my army as “squads” with a leader… so one squad is 10 chaos warriors babysat by a Chaos Sorcerer Lord who uses Oracular Vision on them and is standing by incase I need to use the Command Ability. After they’ve been charged they can then deal MW to all they are in combat with. 

One squad is the Chieftan and the Darkoath and obviously he fights then they fight although I guess I expect them all to die horribly and immediately but better them than my chosen or Varanguard.

The DP would follow the Chosen and he’d be an admittedly terrible mini hammer along with them. At least he would be damage 3 assuming the Flaming Weapon cast goes off. If he was marked Khorne which I will experiment with he’d throw the Khorne MW CA on them too. Also the DP is there for a hero so I can use All Out Attack on Chosen, paired with the Banner of Rage making them 2/2’s 

Aside from Daemonic Power the Varanguard are completely independent. 

As for why two Daemonic Speeds? Redundancy and flexibility. Between each 2 casts from my Chaos Sorcerer Lords I want: Mystic Shield on something, probably Chosen or Varanguard but possibly Warriors. I want Daemonic Power on my Varanguard. I want Daemonic Speed on my Varanguard. This leaves me with 1 flex cast, and if Varanguard are in combat I no longer need Daemonic Speed so I can fall back to their other spell.

Also my meta has a lot of shooting so I’m probably gonna have a CSL sniped  Skaven with 40 Clan Eshin ninja Star Rats and 6 of those Stormvermin, 60 Blissbarb Archers, All of Lumineth Realm Lords it feels like, All of ****** Sylvaneth and their stupid redeploy fairies, greatbow Kurnoth etc.. spells too. Tzeentch shooting. CoS Irondrakes. I’m just trying to survive out here man. 
 

Not only redundancy but the other spells just don’t seem good.. Spite Tongue Curse could be easily dispelled due to the powerful casters in my meta, Glutos, ArchWarlock, ****** Teclis etc.. Chaotic Conduit is being taken by my Chieftan but yeah maybe it could be used on a Sorc Lord too. I have no monsters for Ruinous Vigor. So 2 just seem like no gos altogether. However I could potentially take ghost mist or levitate as my first cast and then take something else as my “additional spell from lore of the damned”. 

[Rors]

I'm really not sure about chosen. The models are great but as mentioned in a unit of 5 they're a priority target that can get lifted too easily. When double reinforced I see them as comparable with gotrek. They're similarly resilient with the rally in host and the buff they can take through banners or marks, and they will murder most targets but they have a delivery problem. 500 points for a M5 unit that needs to be in combat seems really match up dependant to me.

Like any slaves unit they have a lot of flexibility but if you try to make delivery better by going slanesh then you're making them easier to lift, if you go nurgle then they're hard to deliver etc. They sort of demand even more points being spent to shaw up the gaps at which point, while they can do amazing work, you have to consider what you could achieve with those points in other options.

As tournament lists start to form I could be proven wrong but I suspect the unit is a Timmy trap. Too many armies with easy access to range units that can kite them, or mortal wounds will counter them. Even when they shine against other combat armies like iron jaws, they either lack the movement to choose the engagement meaning or they're soft enough that another dedicated combat unit like a mawcrusha can lift them, the good combat units in the meta also tend to have good movement too so in the heavy hitter match ups where first to strike wins, the opponent has the advantage.

[Ravinsild]

3 hours ago, Rors said:

I'm really not sure about chosen. The models are great but as mentioned in a unit of 5 they're a priority target that can get lifted too easily. When double reinforced I see them as comparable with gotrek. They're similarly resilient with the rally in host and the buff they can take through banners or marks, and they will murder most targets but they have a delivery problem. 500 points for a M5 unit that needs to be in combat seems really match up dependant to me.

Like any slaves unit they have a lot of flexibility but if you try to make delivery better by going slanesh then you're making them easier to lift, if you go nurgle then they're hard to deliver etc. They sort of demand even more points being spent to shaw up the gaps at which point, while they can do amazing work, you have to consider what you could achieve with those points in other options.

As tournament lists start to form I could be proven wrong but I suspect the unit is a Timmy trap. Too many armies with easy access to range units that can kite them, or mortal wounds will counter them. Even when they shine against other combat armies like iron jaws, they either lack the movement to choose the engagement meaning or they're soft enough that another dedicated combat unit like a mawcrusha can lift them, the good combat units in the meta also tend to have good movement too so in the heavy hitter match ups where first to strike wins, the opponent has the advantage.

In my experience I tend to agree with you. My models are limited, I can usually only fit 1 unit in a list anyway, and I don’t know what else I would or should take. Maybe more Varanguard points permitting but that’s an expensive kit and I hate cultists which leaves maybe knights I suppose. 

[Biboune]

15 hours ago, Ravinsild said:

Yeah that’s definitely a thought. Chaos Lord just doesn’t seem worth it, his whole chaos warriors or chosen fight immediately thing might have more value in this list though. The idea I had before was a chaos lord on daemonic mount, and knights with a chaos lord and chosen, so it would go Chaos Lord on DM Fight First > Chaos Knights fight immediately > normal activation chaos lord fights > chaos chosen fight immediately… but I could just skip the chaos lord part and have the chosen fight immediately.

Also Darkoath are not Cultist Keyword and therefore do not actually benefit from Idolator Lord. They are Hardlocked as Undivided. The retinue doesn’t seem particularly useful to me as I have experimented with a Chaos Lord across 3 games and he just wasn’t that good and dies easily. One game Sigvald deepstruck and wiped him, another game he got shot to death from Stormvermin and another Blissbarb Archers. 

To answer your questions I imagine my army as “squads” with a leader… so one squad is 10 chaos warriors babysat by a Chaos Sorcerer Lord who uses Oracular Vision on them and is standing by incase I need to use the Command Ability. After they’ve been charged they can then deal MW to all they are in combat with. 

One squad is the Chieftan and the Darkoath and obviously he fights then they fight although I guess I expect them all to die horribly and immediately but better them than my chosen or Varanguard.

The DP would follow the Chosen and he’d be an admittedly terrible mini hammer along with them. At least he would be damage 3 assuming the Flaming Weapon cast goes off. If he was marked Khorne which I will experiment with he’d throw the Khorne MW CA on them too. Also the DP is there for a hero so I can use All Out Attack on Chosen, paired with the Banner of Rage making them 2/2’s 

Aside from Daemonic Power the Varanguard are completely independent. 

As for why two Daemonic Speeds? Redundancy and flexibility. Between each 2 casts from my Chaos Sorcerer Lords I want: Mystic Shield on something, probably Chosen or Varanguard but possibly Warriors. I want Daemonic Power on my Varanguard. I want Daemonic Speed on my Varanguard. This leaves me with 1 flex cast, and if Varanguard are in combat I no longer need Daemonic Speed so I can fall back to their other spell.

Also my meta has a lot of shooting so I’m probably gonna have a CSL sniped  Skaven with 40 Clan Eshin ninja Star Rats and 6 of those Stormvermin, 60 Blissbarb Archers, All of Lumineth Realm Lords it feels like, All of ****** Sylvaneth and their stupid redeploy fairies, greatbow Kurnoth etc.. spells too. Tzeentch shooting. CoS Irondrakes. I’m just trying to survive out here man. 
 

Not only redundancy but the other spells just don’t seem good.. Spite Tongue Curse could be easily dispelled due to the powerful casters in my meta, Glutos, ArchWarlock, ****** Teclis etc.. Chaotic Conduit is being taken by my Chieftan but yeah maybe it could be used on a Sorc Lord too. I have no monsters for Ruinous Vigor. So 2 just seem like no gos altogether. However I could potentially take ghost mist or levitate as my first cast and then take something else as my “additional spell from lore of the damned”. 

True, I forgot about the darkoath beeing "hard universal". Idolator command trait is less pertinent here. What I like about the chaos lord is the protection given by the retinue, Making them fight after him is a bonus. As you say, chaos sorcerer get snipe. He has 1 more wound and better save than an chaos sorcerer and a kind of 3+ ward.  If the retinue is nurgle warrior with the banner, the 5+ ward against mortal wound and the -1 rend in melee apply if I am not mistaken. As you say, he can be shot to death but it seems to me that is will take more resources than shooting down a chaos sorcerer lord giving some respite to the other high value units of your army.

 

I think that the first spell of the S2D lore is quite good (damnation "thing" i don't know how to translate): the one making the target fight last. It always nice and it works well with chosen and in a lesser way with the varanguard.

 

Regarding the chosen, they lack the 5+ ward against MW of knight, 4+ of the varanguard. They are slow. May be 5 of them can hide from shooting units and they can protect a Sorcerer from melee if he hides in the middle of the unit. I'll try them with slaneesh mark, and may be with a warshrine. The pray is 3+, the 6+ ward can be redundant with the eyes of the god roll but it applies to all units close enough. They pray can be sing in the same turn as daemonic speed. Best case scenario the varanguard could go 10"+3d6 and the chosen 5+1d6"(6" with a command point spent)+2" (thanks to the mark and the drum)+3d6"+1"(the mark again).

May be not good enough for a tournament list but it could be try?

 

 

 

 

Edited December 17, 2022 by Biboune

[Rors]

27 minutes ago, Biboune said:

True, I forgot about the darkoath beeing "hard universal". Idolator command trait is less pertinent here. What I like about the chaos lord is the protection given by the retinue, Making them fight after him is a bonus. As you say, chaos sorcerer get snipe. He has 1 more wound and better save than an chaos sorcerer and a kind of 3+ ward.  If the retinue is nurgle warrior with the banner, the 5+ ward against mortal wound and the -1 rend in melee apply if I am not mistaken. As you say, he can be shot to death but it seems to me that is will take more resources than shooting down a chaos lord giving some respite to the other high value units of your army.

 

I think that the first spell of the S2D lore is quite good (damnation "thing" i don't know how to translate): the one making the target fight last. It always nice and it works well with chosen and in a lesser way with the varanguard.

 

Regarding the chosen, they lack the 5+ ward against MW of knight, 4+ of the varanguard. They are slow. May be 5 of them can hide from shooting units and they can protect a Sorcerer from melee if he hides in the middle of the unit. I'll try them with slaneesh mark, and may be with a warshrine. The pray is 3+, the 6+ ward can be redundant with the eyes of the god roll but it applies to all units close enough. They pray can be sing in the same turn as daemonic speed. Best case scenario the varanguard could go 10"+3d6 and the chosen 5+1d6"(6" with a command point spent)+3d6".

May be not good enough for a tournament list but it could be try?

I've found that my slaves list is really command point hungry, you want rally, knights want all out attack, nurgle warriors love all out defense etc. My current list has been a one drop and the glaring weakness is that my sorcerer gets sniped and my command points generation drops off a cliff. I've been thinking about a chaos lord and retinue with arcane tome just to keep him around longer. I'd agree that in most cases though he doesn't really do much for his points.

Another player was using the shrine and siggy and it's good but inconsistent. On the turn you need to make that charge, a 33% chance of failure before you even roll for the change is rough. I think chosen will have the same problem. Usually it'll work, sometimes it won't. In a tournament setting that's the same issue that sylvaneth have which keeps them out of the 5-0 bracket (they have a lot of charge combos relying on spells). I'd hazard a guess that even with a really good piolet for the list, slanesh chosen will go cap at 4-1 at tournaments due to that consistency factor.

It won't be long until we start seeing the data though. Due to having great models and surface value great rules (lots of damage, relatively tanky) I suspect plenty of people will be running them.

[Grimrock]

The thing with the chosen is you don't always need to have a unit rocket across the board for a turn 1 alpha strike. Sometimes what you need is a high damage dealer than can counterstrike your opponent's heavy hitters after they've committed to your lines, and chosen are quite good for that. If you're bringing a big unit of warriors a unit of 5 chosen can happily tag along behind them and wait to counter strike whatever your opponent throws in. They may not have a ward, but if they're behind 20 warriors your opponent should really struggle to get them in range of any meaningful spells. If the opponent commits ranged units to shooting the chosen then they'll be risking getting charged by the warriors in turn, which can often be a favourable trade. 

I guess what I'm saying is try not to think of them in a vacuum, think of how they'll work on the tabletop. Sure varanguard are faster and more resilient, but they pay for that by doing less damage per point. Knights are fantastic, but their huge footprint can make them unwieldy and difficult to focus on a small area. It's all about figuring out what your plan is and what makes it work best. I see chosen working extremely well in a defensive warrior focused list that only moves far up enough to camp objectives and tries to grind the opponent out. In that environment they don't need to be fast, just fast enough to kill the things that get stuck in the warrior tar pit or show up in the back lines. 

All that being said, if the only thing you want to do is win tournaments then you really should be looking at cultists. Splintered fang put out a wholly ridiculous amount of mortal wounds for their cost and are easy to spam. If I wanted to lose some friends I think I'd be looking at host of the everchosen with a couple heroes including an idolator lord, 40 warriors, and about a hundred cultists. 50-60 splintered fangs for damage, 20-30 corvus cabal for forward objectives, 10-20 iron golems for rear objectives. Just swarm the board and grind them out. 

[KriticalKhan]

Decided to get some Chaos Knights before the kit got replaced. I'm not planning on starting an StD force anytime (soon...), I just really like these models and wanted to get them before they were gone. Just don't tell Archaon I was using this one as an excuse to practice some techniques for my Stormcast....

[Big Kim Woof-Woof]

So I gather Chaos Warriors are losing the option of paired hand weapons? That'd be typical, just after I've finished painting up twenty of the geezers, all with a weapon in each hand! 

[Ravinsild]

I’ve used a Daemon Prince in every single one of my game and I am beginning to feel that he is a waste of points/bad. The only one with real “value” is the Nurgle one against Ward Saves… and if your opponent has no ward saves he’s just kind of there… but if you go Khorne, even giving him a bunch of attacks, for instance today I had 7 attacks and only did 2 damage overall… so it’s 195 points for a whole lot of ****** all. Whatever “support” he’s supposed to provide doesn’t seem very effective or obvious to me. 

He almost got completely wiped from a Gossamid archer unit he didn’t even charge he had to eat ****** unleash hell from because it was nearby a unit he actually did charge and was brought down to 1 wound…Literally almost died from just charging something completely different and getting nearly shot off the table then proceeded to do exactly 2 damage, buffed by Khorne Mark and Aspiring Deathbringer. 

I believe I am also going to pivot away from Knights into Varanguard. 

I like knights and they’re really powerful on the charge but reliant on me getting a piece into play I never can (Karkadrak who can fight first and then allow them to immediately activate) and without that I’m very vulnerable to having a unit simply go down. Conversely if they don’t kill everything in front of them and get dragged into a long term combat they get wiped incredibly easily, or even if they get charged they hit like wet paper towels. So they feel like a grenade that you toss and they explode but then they’re gone and that’s a really expensive grenade. 

My issue with my Lord is I only get 1 Daemonic Speed and he’s a bit slower than the knights, perhaps the strat instead of using Daemonic Speed on the knights would be to rely on their changing lowest roll to 4 for better charges and using daemonic speed on the Karkadrak but he also has no bonuses to charge. I just can’t seem to ever deliver them at the same place at the same time. 

Varanguard I feel “just work”

[Malakithe]

3 hours ago, Ravinsild said:

Varanguard I feel “just work”

Ive been juggling back and forth between Knights vs Varanguard

[JackStreicher]

Couldn’t get a game in yet 🥲

From what I‘ve read though: The DP is just the biggest waste of points - they should have fixed his scroll with the last FAQ imo, meaning: trippling his damage while lowering the points to 180.

imo they were afraid to male a unit a hero can transform into too strong, so they made it laughable weak. He deals about 2-3 dmg against a 4+ save? So much for one of the most powerful beings a mortal can ascend to.

Edited December 18, 2022 by JackStreicher

[JackStreicher]

12 hours ago, Big Kim Woof-Woof said:

So I gather Chaos Warriors are losing the option of paired hand weapons? That'd be typical, just after I've finished painting up twenty of the geezers, all with a weapon in each hand! 

Doesn’t matter since the rule of cool applies.

[Biboune]

On 12/17/2022 at 8:25 AM, Rors said:

I've found that my slaves list is really command point hungry, you want rally, knights want all out attack, nurgle warriors love all out defense etc. My current list has been a one drop and the glaring weakness is that my sorcerer gets sniped and my command points generation drops off a cliff. I've been thinking about a chaos lord and retinue with arcane tome just to keep him around longer. I'd agree that in most cases though he doesn't really do much for his points.

Another player was using the shrine and siggy and it's good but inconsistent. On the turn you need to make that charge, a 33% chance of failure before you even roll for the change is rough. I think chosen will have the same problem. Usually it'll work, sometimes it won't. In a tournament setting that's the same issue that sylvaneth have which keeps them out of the 5-0 bracket (they have a lot of charge combos relying on spells). I'd hazard a guess that even with a really good piolet for the list, slanesh chosen will go cap at 4-1 at tournaments due to that consistency factor.

It won't be long until we start seeing the data though. Due to having great models and surface value great rules (lots of damage, relatively tanky) I suspect plenty of people will be running them.

My be give Eternus a try: he can give you 1 cp every turn quite easely, both furies and legionnaires have cool rules.

Legion of the first prince is where the chosen can shine I think, universal mark with the right banner, changing mark without loosing the eyes of the god rolls. Centaurion Marshal is costy but can be include along 10 models chosen unit as he can 5+ rally every mortal S2D. 

 

Regarding the warshrine, I would take it primary for the ward and as a backup if daemonic speed cast failed. If the spell is cast, the pray would be try on another unit. It is a pain that the universal pray is bad: with legion of the first prince it could change is mark if needed, helping nurlge warriors or slaaneshy knight

[Ravinsild]

12 minutes ago, Biboune said:

My be give Eternus a try: he can give you 1 cp every turn quite easely, both furies and legionnaires have cool rules.

Legion of the first prince is where the chosen can shine I think, universal mark with the right banner, changing mark without loosing the eyes of the god rolls. Centaurion Marshal is costy but can be include along 10 models chosen unit as he can 5+ rally every mortal S2D. 

 

Regarding the warshrine, I would take it primary for the ward and as a backup if daemonic speed cast failed. If the spell is cast, the pray would be try on another unit. It is a pain that the universal pray is bad: with legion of the first prince it could change is mark if needed, helping nurlge warriors or slaaneshy knight

The Centurion Marshall can only rally Undivided Units on a 5+. 
 

The Chaos Warshrine must be the mark of its prayer, i.e. it must be Slaanesh Marked in order to do the Slaanesh prayer, but the unit receiving the prayer must be the same mark as well. So the Warshrine must be Slaanesh itself to give the Slaanesh prayer and the unit receiving the prayer must also be Slaanesh. It’s a lot more strict than it used to be. 

[Kasper]

On 12/16/2022 at 10:31 PM, Rors said:

I'm really not sure about chosen. The models are great but as mentioned in a unit of 5 they're a priority target that can get lifted too easily. When double reinforced I see them as comparable with gotrek. They're similarly resilient with the rally in host and the buff they can take through banners or marks, and they will murder most targets but they have a delivery problem. 500 points for a M5 unit that needs to be in combat seems really match up dependant to me.

Like any slaves unit they have a lot of flexibility but if you try to make delivery better by going slanesh then you're making them easier to lift, if you go nurgle then they're hard to deliver etc. They sort of demand even more points being spent to shaw up the gaps at which point, while they can do amazing work, you have to consider what you could achieve with those points in other options.

As tournament lists start to form I could be proven wrong but I suspect the unit is a Timmy trap. Too many armies with easy access to range units that can kite them, or mortal wounds will counter them. Even when they shine against other combat armies like iron jaws, they either lack the movement to choose the engagement meaning or they're soft enough that another dedicated combat unit like a mawcrusha can lift them, the good combat units in the meta also tend to have good movement too so in the heavy hitter match ups where first to strike wins, the opponent has the advantage.

Chosen are amazing.

Im actually starting to lean away from Warriors and Knights. Warriors in 10s are a bit too squishy for me but 20 is way too durable. A unit of reinforced Chosen only costs slightly more than 20 Warriors but sit in that middle ground durability wise, however their damage is through the roof, even with Nurgle banner. The trade-off is a nobrainer for me. 

Knights are OK on the charge but beyond that they do absolutely pitiful damage and to me they are more like a mobile anvil in units of 10 with Nurgle mark.

Chosen are slow, but so are many other units in the game. Slaanesh certainly helps when giving them run + charge and +2 charge. I will be toying around with Soulcream Bridge and Levitate. 7+ with a reroll is fairly reliable.

On most battleplans you sit 22" apart. If you run them up turn 1 you are sitting in the middle of the board on the objective. You dont have to run all over the board and chase things, for that I would have a unit or two of Varanguard that can flank and do so extremely well. 

If you are worried about not choosing the engagement I would consider battle regiment and including a screen or two that runs up in front of them to take the impact and then trade. 

[Rors]

16 hours ago, Ravinsild said:

The Centurion Marshall can only rally Undivided Units on a 5+. 
 

The Chaos Warshrine must be the mark of its prayer, i.e. it must be Slaanesh Marked in order to do the Slaanesh prayer, but the unit receiving the prayer must be the same mark as well. So the Warshrine must be Slaanesh itself to give the Slaanesh prayer and the unit receiving the prayer must also be Slaanesh. It’s a lot more strict than it used to be. 

He's referring to First Prince subfaction where one unit can gain a mark in addition to undivided each turn.

16 hours ago, Biboune said:

My be give Eternus a try: he can give you 1 cp every turn quite easely, both furies and legionnaires have cool rules.

Legion of the first prince is where the chosen can shine I think, universal mark with the right banner, changing mark without loosing the eyes of the god rolls. Centaurion Marshal is costy but can be include along 10 models chosen unit as he can 5+ rally every mortal S2D. 

 

Regarding the warshrine, I would take it primary for the ward and as a backup if daemonic speed cast failed. If the spell is cast, the pray would be try on another unit. It is a pain that the universal pray is bad: with legion of the first prince it could change is mark if needed, helping nurlge warriors or slaaneshy knight

Belakor is one of my favorite units and Eternus looks solid although I don't have that model yet. Legionnaires don't inspire me but furies can keep up with Eternus. He seems like a distraction model to me so you want to push him up and legionnaires slow him down.

 

2 minutes ago, Kasper said:

Chosen are amazing.

Im actually starting to lean away from Warriors and Knights. Warriors in 10s are a bit too squishy for me but 20 is way too durable. A unit of reinforced Chosen only costs slightly more than 20 Warriors but sit in that middle ground durability wise, however their damage is through the roof, even with Nurgle banner. The trade-off is a nobrainer for me. 

Knights are OK on the charge but beyond that they do absolutely pitiful damage and to me they are more like a mobile anvil in units of 10 with Nurgle mark.

Chosen are slow, but so are many other units in the game. Slaanesh certainly helps when giving them run + charge and +2 charge. I will be toying around with Soulcream Bridge and Levitate. 7+ with a reroll is fairly reliable.

On most battleplans you sit 22" apart. If you run them up turn 1 you are sitting in the middle of the board on the objective. You dont have to run all over the board and chase things, for that I would have a unit or two of Varanguard that can flank and do so extremely well. 

If you are worried about not choosing the engagement I would consider battle regiment and including a screen or two that runs up in front of them to take the impact and then trade. 

Lots of units are slow but if you look through the meta, very few are slow combat units (in tournament winning lists). Hearthguard are one of the rare examples and they have the durability to pull it of and delivery options. Grave guard would be another.

In general, the competitive combat units either have some form of really good durability, or a way to move fast/teleport.

I could be wrong, time will tell, but Chosen seem hard countered in some match ups. Sentinels spam in LRL or Morathi with bow snakes in DoK are common competitive lists that will wreck Chosen. Once you include a screen in addition to a 500 point unit, that moves at walking speed, any smart opponent can play the objective game with the advantage in most scenario that have 4+ objectives because just like gotrek, they lack power projection (although not as badly).

Happy to discover I'm wrong, I hope I am because they're beautiful models... I just don't see it.

[Kasper]

10 minutes ago, Rors said:

Lots of units are slow but if you look through the meta, very few are slow combat units (in tournament winning lists). Hearthguard are one of the rare examples and they have the durability to pull it of and delivery options. Grave guard would be another.

In general, the competitive combat units either have some form of really good durability, or a way to move fast/teleport.

I could be wrong, time will tell, but Chosen seem hard countered in some match ups. Sentinels spam in LRL or Morathi with bow snakes in DoK are common competitive lists that will wreck Chosen. Once you include a screen in addition to a 500 point unit, that moves at walking speed, any smart opponent can play the objective game with the advantage in most scenario that have 4+ objectives because just like gotrek, they lack power projection (although not as badly).

Happy to discover I'm wrong, I hope I am because they're beautiful models... I just don't see it.

I dont get why you keep comparing Chosen to Gotrek? Sure they are both a combat unit, costs about 500 points and same speed but Chosen have a waaaay bigger foot print than Gotrek and hence a way bigger threat range. Im assuming we are talking 2.000 pts armies here, which means you have other units in the army - Maybe a unit or two of Varanguard to chase up a flank and threaten shooting armies. At the end of the day, the opponent has to get to the objectives, which is where your Chosen will be, and if he spends 3 turns "kiting" your Chosen then thats an easy win. There are maybe 2-3 battleplans in the current GHB where the objectives are so far apart the movement will be an issue, but again - You have other units in the army. I find its really not a big deal, especially if you run them as Slaanesh. 

Edited December 19, 2022 by Kasper