Warhammer - The Old World

[Hollow]

I love tables and really wasn't a big fan when the games went to basic 3+ rolls (or whatever) I felt it took so much flavour out of the games. Very happy to see them returning and from what we have seen so far in regard to the rules I am a lot more optimistic than I was previously. 

[MattT]

(Disclaimer: this is drawn from experience from earlier versions of the game, which I assume still holds)

For those skeptical I just want to emphasize that the great delight in playing this game is that you win by much less by model stats over maneuvering correctly. It´s a game of clever use of the board and understanding of flow of battle rather than picking the deadliest unit pre battle.

E.g. If you send your mighty Chaos Warriors straight at the pesky Empire Pistoliers, they´ll most likely just gallop away with jeers ringing in your ears and the next thing that happens is a thick block of Halberdiers crashing into your flank. In all other GW games this will make little to no performance change by the Warriors, but not here. See, this game might look like any other battle game, yet it is really about Morale and positioning. What happened now in the view of the Chaos fighters was that an unknown foe attacked from a blind angle. Does this mean the whole army is surrounded? Fleeing? Is the General Dead or maybe Fled? They don´t know.

Enter the Morale rules. You fight, but the games is less deadly than other GW games, so the bonus due to the smart maneuvering kicks in and most likely will force a Break test upon the CW. If they hold their nerve they can turn and face the threat, but the take home message here is that their martial superiority was out the window at that moment and things could go either way despite the difference in troop quality. 

This aspect is what I and many with me loved about the game. It´s a game of correct positioning over pre-game picking deadly troops and combos.

[KingKull]

30 minutes ago, MattT said:

(Disclaimer: this is drawn from experience from earlier versions of the game, which I assume still holds)

For those skeptical I just want to emphasize that the great delight in playing this game is that you win by much less by model stats over maneuvering correctly. It´s a game of clever use of the board and understanding of flow of battle rather than picking the deadliest unit pre battle.

E.g. If you send your mighty Chaos Warriors straight at the pesky Empire Pistoliers, they´ll most likely just gallop away with jeers ringing in your ears and the next thing that happens is a thick block of Halberdiers crashing into your flank. In all other GW games this will make little to no performance change by the Warriors, but not here. See, this game might look like any other battle game, yet it is really about Morale and positioning. What happened now in the view of the Chaos fighters was that an unknown foe attacked from a blind angle. Does this mean the whole army is surrounded? Fleeing? Is the General Dead or maybe Fled? They don´t know.

Enter the Morale rules. You fight, but the games is less deadly than other GW games, so the bonus due to the smart maneuvering kicks in and most likely will force a Break test upon the CW. If they hold their nerve they can turn and face the threat, but the take home message here is that their martial superiority was out the window at that moment and things could go either way despite the difference in troop quality. 

This aspect is what I and many with me loved about the game. It´s a game of correct positioning over pre-game picking deadly troops and combos.

Can I just say I love your profile pic? That artwork made me fall in love with wood elves!

[EccentricCircle]

It's worth pointing out that some folks are much better at internalising rules than others. When we see thus sort of thing, there can be a trend for players who are good at rules to think "well, I learned it pretty easily, so its easy to learn". That might just mean though, that you are better than average at learning it, so please be sympathetic and have empathy towards those who find this harder.

There is so often a feedback loop with games, where those who have good active memory, and can deal with a larger cognitive load get better, and those who can't get forced out because the majority can't wrap their heads around why it's hard.

(Not trying to be critical of anyone or any post here, this just doesn't get said enough and is pretty key to accessibility in the gaming community. Warhammer should be for everyone.)

Edited November 22, 2023 by EccentricCircle

[Beliman]

3 hours ago, MattT said:

For those skeptical I just want to emphasize that the great delight in playing this game is that you win by much less by model stats over maneuvering correctly. It´s a game of clever use of the board and understanding of flow of battle rather than picking the deadliest unit pre battle.

That sounds awesome! 

I hope the game is here to stay, with full support to upgrade all armies. I had a blast with Horus Heresy, I expect the same with TOW.

 

Edited November 22, 2023 by Beliman

[TaeRam]

I'm not buying Tomb Kings unless those ancients skeletons and horses get updated

[Ejecutor]

13 minutes ago, TaeRam said:

I'm not buying Tomb Kings unless those ancients skeletons and horses get updated

This could not happen after a bunch of years.

[michu]

We still haven't seen other new kits, maybe the horses did get updated.

[Hollow]

4 hours ago, EccentricCircle said:

It's worth pointing out that some folks are much better at internalising rules than others. When we see thus sort of thing, there can be a trend for players who are good at rules to think "well, I learned it pretty easily, so its easy to learn". That might just mean though, that you are better than average at learning it, so please be sympathetic and have empathy towards those who find this harder.

Conversely, I think it is important that those who find rules difficult to understand or learn appreciate that the system may just not be for them and that there are dozens of much simpler rule sets out there for different systems and it is ok for a game to have slightly more "complex rules" for those who are able to comprehend them. Not every system should be aimed at the lowest denominator. It's okay for different systems to be aimed at different types of people. It would be a shame if TOW suffers the same fate as many other systems, becoming so "streamlined" and "simple" because of the demands of those who are either unable or unwilling to read and internalize a couple of paragraphs of rules. 

If I was to join a martial arts gym as a novice, I wouldn't join a black belt class and demand that they treat me with kid gloves. I would look for a class that was appropriate for my level. (White belt) 

[Noserenda]

@Hollow nobody likes a gatekeeper dude. Warhammer is a simple enough game that anyone can play it with a reference card but we arent all built the same way and being an ass about it serves noone.

I suspect a lot of tomb king armies may be filled out by the Wargames Atlantic offerings as they are working through a set of skeleton infantry/cavalry/chariots right now. Its mind boggling that they havent replaced models widely considered to be fugly millstones so many years ago, which is a shame, because outside of the core, the Tomb kings range is great! 

[Flippy]

13 minutes ago, Noserenda said:

@Hollow nobody likes a gatekeeper dude. Warhammer is a simple enough game that anyone can play it with a reference card but we arent all built the same way and being an ass about it serves noone.

This is not gatekeeping but a simple acknowledgement of facts. Warhammer (in this or that flavour) is not for everyone, no hobby is. Most people realise this immediately upon seeing the fat core rulebook - as with everything, you are expected to at least put some effort into this.

[RyantheFett]

3 hours ago, michu said:

We still haven't seen other new kits, maybe the horses did get updated.

I'm guessing they will repeat the Bretonnia route. Several new solos and one big new unit. The fact that Knights of the Realm did not get an update I think is a sign that most of everything will stay old. Would like to be wrong tho!

 

3 hours ago, TaeRam said:

I'm not buying Tomb Kings unless those ancients skeletons and horses get updated

For me a bigger thing would be the price of it. I want to start with Bretonnia, but those men at arms and archers are ancient and come in groups of 30. GW would have to price they crazy low to temp me to buy them over Etsy options (which are better quality and cheaper).

I could easily see GW pricing them crazy high and just do that across the board for all their old models. Would be insane to think that those skeletons would be more expensive then newer AoS stuff.

Personally I have been slow buying Etsy stuff to make sure their quality is good enough for a replacement. Still hoping that all the old ****** units are thrown together for the starter box and priced close to how well Leviathan was.........

[Noserenda]

9 hours ago, Flippy said:

This is not gatekeeping but a simple acknowledgement of facts. Warhammer (in this or that flavour) is not for everyone, no hobby is. Most people realise this immediately upon seeing the fat core rulebook - as with everything, you are expected to at least put some effort into this.

Of course its gatekeeping, yOu ArENt sMoRt EnOUgh foR WaRhamS! Is pretty textbook.

Warhammer is not a complicated game by wargaming standards, and its kinda adorable you think it is  Most of the rulebooks arent even rules? They also have considerably higher production values and thought put into their presentation and how someone will refer to them compared to the vast majority ive played over the years. As i said above, anyone can play warhammer with a reference sheet and an opponent capable of a modicum of patience. Its a social game, you are expected to at least put some effort into this.

Back on topic, ive been seduced by a black friday deal into ordering some troops for the Marienburger army i formerly abandoned, (Ill just use pikes as spears, though they doooo mention Pikes in this article...)  and was wondering if anyone had a good source of bases/trays suitable for magnetisation in the new sizes, (I am making the assumption all humans will be on 25mm squares) especially the wider regiment bases as im gonna be fielding a lot of scrubs Google has been less useful than usual thanks to optimisation.

Edited November 23, 2023 by Noserenda

[Hollow]

10 hours ago, Noserenda said:

nobody likes a gatekeeper dude. Warhammer is a simple enough game that anyone can play it with a reference card but we arent all built the same way and being an ass about it serves noone.

How was I being an ass about it? There are many Warhammer games. Play one that suits your style and ability. The only one being an ass is you. 

[Marcvs]

4 hours ago, Hollow said:

How was I being an ass about it? There are many Warhammer games. Play one that suits your style and ability. The only one being an ass is you. 

Tbh, and just as a point of feedback, I also felt your answer conveyed the message "this is a big brain game for big brain players". The double mention of someone supposedly "demanding" rules to be dumbed down and the implicit assumption that those playing TOW/WHFB are the "black belts" of toy soldiers surely reinforced that impression.

Then again, maybe that wasn't your intention at all. Since now I am writing, my fear is that by sticking to complexity for nostalgia sake the risk is that the game only appeals to a small niche of players insufficient for it to survive (again).

There are simpler games, sure, but this can be reversed as well: if you're looking for complexity all the old WHFB games are still out there to be played.

[MattT]

Agree that the answer rang a bit gatekeeper. As a former player of the WFB system I wouldn´t say the game is complicated. It´s different since it harks back to old school military games wanting to pin down formation movement.

 

[Flippy]

8 hours ago, Noserenda said:

Of course its gatekeeping, yOu ArENt sMoRt EnOUgh foR WaRhamS! Is pretty textbook.

Warhammer is not a complicated game by wargaming standards, and its kinda adorable you think it is  Most of the rulebooks arent even rules? They also have considerably higher production values and thought put into their presentation and how someone will refer to them compared to the vast majority ive played over the years. As i said above, anyone can play warhammer with a reference sheet and an opponent capable of a modicum of patience. Its a social game, you are expected to at least put some effort into this.

These are your words, not mine. I've never said that one has to be smart enough for Warhammer (for the record - I think that both WHFB and AoS are moderately complicated games). What I said was that Warhammer is an activity which involves acquainting yourself with a fairly extensive rule set and applying this rule set to the game. This rather naturally means that it attracts people who enjoy such activity. I know a lot of smart individuals who are just not into this and I don't see any point in hiding the nature of the hobby from them.

As for the social game... I tend to agree with you; personally I play AoS / Warcry in a very relaxed manner and enjoy the social interaction - but there is a reason why most people would rather choose something like snooker, bowling, darts, table soccer, badminton or a standard card game. Hint: (largely fictional) gatekeepers are not the reason.

[SunStorm]

I was thinking about the info and concepts for Kislev posted when it was first announced, including how important they would be in this time period, but then in a more recent article talking about factions I couldn't see Kislev mentioned:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/03/23/the-old-world-ice-guard-of-kislevgw-homepage-post-4fw-homepage-post-2/

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/07/21/square-bases-and-kislev-ascendant-see-your-questions-about-warhammer-the-old-world-answered/

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/05/11/old-world-update-bearsgw-homepage-post-4/

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/05/23/old-world-development-diary-the-main-factions-revealed/

I'm hoping Kislev is still part of the plan, but I'm assuming they're going to release the game with then old stuff first (TK, Brets, etc) and then move onto new/updated factions?

 

[Clan's Cynic]

1 hour ago, SunStorm said:

I'm hoping Kislev is still part of the plan, but I'm assuming they're going to release the game with then old stuff first (TK, Brets, etc) and then move onto new/updated factions?

I think if Kislev were coming anytime close to launch they'd have announced it by now, but I definitely think they're still on the cards given the big deal they made about designing them with CA. 

A Great War Against Chaos supplement seems inevitable, which is presumably when they'll cover Kislev and Chaos Daemons. I doubt FW will be able to resist the urge to release Magnus the Pious, Engra Deathsword and Asavar Kul models.

 

Edited November 23, 2023 by Clan's Cynic

[GhostShark]

Acknowledging that there are gates isn't the same as gatekeeping.
 

[Noserenda]

15 hours ago, SunStorm said:

 

I'm hoping Kislev is still part of the plan, but I'm assuming they're going to release the game with then old stuff first (TK, Brets, etc) and then move onto new/updated factions?

 

I think the plan for Old World went through a few phases in development with different settings or eras over the years in development and in at least one of those Kislev (And Cathay possibly) featured prominently, presumably because they had a bigger budget for the game's mini releases than they ended up with, thus adding to existing lines rather than creating new ones in the final product.

As for gates, there really arent any that people try to erect themselves, its a commercial product, long designed to be playable by anyone. Having just watched Jordan Sorcery's interview with Alan Merrett, one of the aims for the initial big box games was something you could sell in a supermarket and someone could pick up and play, and that was back in the 90's In all the years running beginner courses i never found a kid who wanted to learn Warhammer and couldnt, its arguably not the best system in places, bit archaic and clunky but its not an achievement to learn it.

[Flippy]

7 hours ago, Noserenda said:

In all the years running beginner courses i never found a kid who wanted to learn Warhammer and couldnt

Now you are right and you have your answer.

[RyantheFett]

On 11/23/2023 at 6:04 AM, SunStorm said:

I was thinking about the info and concepts for Kislev posted when it was first announced, including how important they would be in this time period, but then in a more recent article talking about factions I couldn't see Kislev mentioned:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/03/23/the-old-world-ice-guard-of-kislevgw-homepage-post-4fw-homepage-post-2/

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/07/21/square-bases-and-kislev-ascendant-see-your-questions-about-warhammer-the-old-world-answered/

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/05/11/old-world-update-bearsgw-homepage-post-4/

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/05/23/old-world-development-diary-the-main-factions-revealed/

I'm hoping Kislev is still part of the plan, but I'm assuming they're going to release the game with then old stuff first (TK, Brets, etc) and then move onto new/updated factions?

 

I am sure Kislev and Cathay are still somewhere down the line. GW works in years and right now the main focus is on the two starting factions. They should get some love at some point............ unless the game does not do well lol.

And I am still confused by so many decisions GW has made with this game. We really need to see the prices of all the old stuff and what is going to be in that starter box. Get the feeling Esty sellers and anyone with a 3D printer is going to be making bank.

[Sception]

My experience with oldhammer vs. AoS is that time lost to things like comparing stats & checking charts to determine hit & wound values or adding up & playing out combat results were more than made up for by time saved from moving & activating entire units as coherent blocks rather than individual models.

You'll have twice as many models in your army, making for much more of a big battle feel, but in practice they operate as only seven or eight individual elements that you have to think about or physically interact with, which allows for the higher level of system complexity without adding much if anything to game time.

my AoS games still take longer than my oldhammer games used to, and that's mostly down to moving blocks of units one model at a time in AoS while taking care to measure each one, moving around obstacles and other models individually, checking coherency and control ranges and aura ranges as I go.

[Beliman]

On 11/25/2023 at 5:24 PM, RyantheFett said:

I am sure Kislev and Cathay are still somewhere down the line. GW works in years and right now the main focus is on the two starting factions.

I really hope so. A new fantasy army could be really big hit, of course, with a new updated background to fit a bit better than before.

Btw, morale-day today!

Edited November 27, 2023 by Beliman