AoS 2 Cities of Sigmar Discussion: Hallowheart

[Raffonerd]

Guys, Final Breaking meta list:

Hallow Heart
Anoited Frost	320
Incantor	140
Bmage	90
Bmage	90
SoT	130
FreeGuild Crossbow	100
Liberators	100
Eternal Guard	330
Phoenix	320
Spell Portal	70
Geminds	60
Emerald	50
Lauchon	60
Battalion	140
Total	2000

 

General incantor with 20 phoenix as support and no battleshock around 18". Ignax scale. Heal & Aegis.

Phoenix with tome and heal.

Bamge Hysh - warding  cyclone - general supporter

Bamge Asquy- wildfire ignite

SoT -  wildfire cyclone

Edited October 11, 2019 by Raffonerd

[Malakithe]

List 1.0. Still need to work out who the general will be, spells, and items. I feel like having some mobility will help counter the wizard bunker. I also considered a Luminark and Lord Arcanum. I feel none of the Lord A's are worth taking other then the Derp Goat version. 

Leaders
Knight-Incantor (140)
Celestial Hurricanum With Celestial Battlemage (280)
- Spell: Lore of Whitefire - Sear Wounds (Hallowheart Wizard)
Sorceress (90)
Battlemage (90)
- Mortal Realm: Ulgu
Battlemage (90)
- Mortal Realm: Aqshy
Battlemage (90)
- Mortal Realm: Hysh

20 x Freeguild Guard (160)
- Halberds and Shields
20 x Freeguild Guard (160)
- Halberds and Shields
20 x Freeguild Guard (160)
- Halberds and Shields
10 x Freeguild Outriders (200)
10 x Shadow Warriors (110)
10 x Shadow Warriors (110)

Battalions
Whitefire Retinue (140)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Everblaze Comet (100)
Aethervoid Pendulum (50)
Quicksilver Swords (30)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1

Wounds: 136

[Thalandor]

looks like a solid list, that has tools for most situations. I wouldn't make a lot of changes before testing the general idea of the army followed by lots of small tweaks here and there.

But there's one thing I think you need to give some thoughts to. You have seven drops, that means you are likely not choosing who get's to go first in the first battleround. What is your plan, if you have to go first? You do not have much threatpotential beyond 18 inch and you are facing a potential double turn. Currently you got Everblaze Comets and thats it. I think you'll need something like a Balewind Vortex and/or Umbral Spellportal.

You could drop the Sorceress, as she doesn't benefit from the +1 to cast from the Hurricanum nor from the +2 from her own ability.

Freeguild Guards come either with A) Halberd and no shield, B) Spear and no shield or C) sword and shield.

[Gwendar]

7 hours ago, Luke.w said:

I think the list has some nice things going for it, but in CoS Hallowheart I like to try to include some damaging endless spells. particularly pendulum as its path is so predicatbale and the range boost for CoS is nice. the lifeswarm is also one to consider with phoenix temple units.

I don't think it's entirely needed considering the solid spells they already have. Also, the Pendulum doesn't have any empowered benefit, so not sure what you mean other than the Arcanum's CA boosting it's movement. The Lifeswarm was already considered, but I would be 10 points over and again, I don't think it's 100% needed. It has the potential to fly to my opponent and heal\return d6 to them as well.

I don't think the 5-6 Wizard bunker is the way to go here; you're putting far too much into that setup and tend to have little out on the board so objective control can be an issue. 3-4 Wizards with the Battalion and filling up with screens, board control and CC\shooting units is likely the better way to go about it from what I can tell. The biggest choice for me is whether or not I want to include the Hurricanum simply because Comet of Casandora + Shemtek combo can really light stuff up. Some argue the Luminark is more useful, but I'm still not sold on that yet.

[Raffonerd]

1 hour ago, Thalandor said:

looks like a solid list, that has tools for most situations. I wouldn't make a lot of changes before testing the general idea of the army followed by lots of small tweaks here and there.

But there's one thing I think you need to give some thoughts to. You have seven drops, that means you are likely not choosing who get's to go first in the first battleround. What is your plan, if you have to go first? You do not have much threatpotential beyond 18 inch and you are facing a potential double turn. Currently you got Everblaze Comets and thats it. I think you'll need something like a Balewind Vortex and/or Umbral Spellportal.

You could drop the Sorceress, as she doesn't benefit from the +1 to cast from the Hurricanum nor from the +2 from her own ability.

Freeguild Guards come either with A) Halberd and no shield, B) Spear and no shield or C) sword and shield.

Nothing to say to mine?

[Malakithe]

1 hour ago, Thalandor said:

looks like a solid list, that has tools for most situations. I wouldn't make a lot of changes before testing the general idea of the army followed by lots of small tweaks here and there.

But there's one thing I think you need to give some thoughts to. You have seven drops, that means you are likely not choosing who get's to go first in the first battleround. What is your plan, if you have to go first? You do not have much threatpotential beyond 18 inch and you are facing a potential double turn. Currently you got Everblaze Comets and thats it. I think you'll need something like a Balewind Vortex and/or Umbral Spellportal.

You could drop the Sorceress, as she doesn't benefit from the +1 to cast from the Hurricanum nor from the +2 from her own ability.

Freeguild Guards come either with A) Halberd and no shield, B) Spear and no shield or C) sword and shield.

Yeah the Spellportal or Balewind might have to come in. Where are you seeing 7 drops though? The Battalion covers all the wizards which is the 6 leaders. The Incantor counts as a Hallowheart wizard as well.

I like her spell but she could be cut.

Warscroll builder is wrong then with the weapon options on the Guard.

[Thalandor]

1x Batallion, 3x Freeguild Guard, 1x Freeguild Outrider, 2x Shadow Warrior = 7

@Raffonerd

your list is more complicated and I dont play enough to comment on it. It looks like you want to outtank your opponent with 4 powerful anvil units. It's probably going to be a race of who gets to the objectives first.

[Mandzak-Miniatures]

So I don’t play so I’m sure the list is hot garbage. It does allow me to squeeze in things I like for the theme: AoS styled Araby. Magi that make use of djinn and elemental powers.

No spells have been selected and I’m sure I could swap out the eternal guard for more freeguild guard, opening up another 100pts.

Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
- City: Hallowheart
Mortal Realm: Aqshy

Leaders
Battlemage (90) magi
Battlemage (90) magi
Celestant-Prime (340) djinn
Knight-Incantor (140) magi

Battleline
10 x Eternal Guard (130) 
10 x Eternal Guard (130)
10 x Freeguild Guard (80)
- Swords and Shields

Units
10 x Sisters of the Watch (160) elemental bows

Behemoths
Flamespyre Phoenix (200) fire elemental 
Frostheart Phoenix (220) ice elemental

Battalions
Whitefire Retinue (140)

Total: 1720 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 87
 

[mmimzie]

4 hours ago, Gwendar said:

t I want to include the Hurricanum simply because Comet of Casandora + Shemtek combo can really light stuff up. Some argue the Luminark is more useful, but I'm still not sold on that yet.

I think i rate the luminarch over the hurricanum because the luminark does something if your forced to go first, quite a lot of something. Our list outside of portal, vortex, shadow warriors, CP boosted dark shards, comet, and soul thief+purple sun/pendulum. Most list is ee here don't do enough turn 1, and thus your basicly playing a 4 turn game vs your opponents 5 turn game. Even more so when you consider most list are going to out drop us pretty hard. 

I feel like ever good army either can almost always decide to go first or second and take whatever is best for them, or can take advantage of both going first or going 2nd, so you aren't as thrown to the mercy of your opponent. 

@Malakithe:

10 hours ago, Malakithe said:

Battalions
Whitefire Retinue (140)

my Crituques are strictly competive. If you play in a less aggressive environment feel free to take or leave them as you will. 

I think if your going to take this battalion i'd aim to be <5 drops. +1 to cast is small potatoes for us as we can drop 2 CP turn 1 and get an average +7 to cast with out really breaking a sweat. While it does provide a nice artifact for us as the -1 to hit and scales are both appealing for various reasons, i don't know if that alone is a big enough draw in a list where you might still get out dropped by skaven with no battalion. 
 

 

10 hours ago, Malakithe said:

Celestial Hurricanum With Celestial Battlemage (280)
- Spell: Lore of Whitefire - Sear Wounds (Hallowheart Wizard)

+1 to hit is abit much of a price tag for only bringing ~400pts worth of shooting. I'd change this out for the luminark on the +1 to cast it only hits the battle mages and again the command ability will bring you so much more.  On my point up top and on the getting out dropped your turn 1 is only shadow warriors, the comet, and outriders that moved.  a Luminark would give you more turn 1 punch and let you protect a unit. The azyr battle mage spell is better on a battle mage on a balewind anyway launching that and roaming wild fire accross the table.  

 

5 hours ago, Raffonerd said:

Nothing to say to mine?

You list format requirs me to do math and think. That said

 

 

11 hours ago, Raffonerd said:

Spell Portal 70
Geminds 60
Emerald 50
Lauchon 60

You could drop gemnids for the balewind vortex. An azyr battle mage with roaming wildfire  which will have about the same threat range as you can set the vortex up abit forward of the casting mage giving you something more akin to +8-10" to range. It'll also hit multiple units for d3 and do so multiple times. You also won't have to worry about it coming back at you. 

With that change you now have points to replace lauchon for the screaming bridge. This will let you move the pheonix guard and your crossbow men.  I like lauchon on sisters of the thorn to get them into turn 1 spell range as it lets them move in the hero phase rather than the movement phase, and with thier large unit size they can keep a toe in range of the spell bonus aura.  That said you don't have another endspell to help you take advantage of this. 

[Gwendar]

18 minutes ago, mmimzie said:

I think i rate the luminarch over the hurricanum because the luminark does something if your forced to go first, quite a lot of something. Our list outside of portal, vortex, shadow warriors, CP boosted dark shards, comet, and soul thief+purple sun/pendulum. Most list is ee here don't do enough turn 1, and thus your basicly playing a 4 turn game vs your opponents 5 turn game. Even more so when you consider most list are going to out drop us pretty hard. 

I feel like ever good army either can almost always decide to go first or second and take whatever is best for them, or can take advantage of both going first or going 2nd, so you aren't as thrown to the mercy of your opponent. 

What, make a 30" shot that might do d3 MW's to a couple units? I don't know that it's quite worth it for that aspect. Likewise if I was afraid of something going first and hitting me, I would be deploying farther back in the first place and that thing definitely wouldn't be on the front line to get charged, meaning I wouldn't want to shoot since it would hit my own screen.

Being able to take early objectives or put yourself into a favorable position with screen setups, ranges, etc usually means I don't mind going first. And sure, if they get the double turn that would suck, but you have to try and prepare for that.. how you feel about the double turn is a whole other subject of course 😉. I find a lot of these armies with low drops are typically very CC heavy (granted their are outliers like Shootcast) and rely on getting to go 2nd.. this isn't one of those armies. I'm playing this in the same fashion as my Skaven magic lists in which it really doesn't matter whether or not I go 1st or 2nd, and that really throws some people for a loop.
 

[Eaglsphan]

So I played my first game with my Hallowheart list tonight, and I want to see if I did something incorrectly because it felt super janky. I would cast Emerald Lifeswarm and heal up some dudes, and then grumble it out of existence with my Longbeards. I didn't see anything about specific order of operations regarding casting/dispelling. Also the first game I've played in a bit so I could be missing something.

[mmimzie]

22 minutes ago, Eaglsphan said:

So I played my first game with my Hallowheart list tonight, and I want to see if I did something incorrectly because it felt super janky. I would cast Emerald Lifeswarm and heal up some dudes, and then grumble it out of existence with my Longbeards. I didn't see anything about specific order of operations regarding casting/dispelling. Also the first game I've played in a bit so I could be missing something.

dispeling is done at the start of the turn, but the longbeard ability doesn't say at the start of the turn. Seems odd. 

 

 

7 hours ago, Gwendar said:

What, make a 30" shot that might do d3 MW's to a couple units? I don't know that it's quite worth it for that aspect. Likewise if I was afraid of something going first and hitting me, I would be deploying farther back in the first place and that thing definitely wouldn't be on the front line to get charged, meaning I wouldn't want to shoot since it would hit my own screen.

Being able to take early objectives or put yourself into a favorable position with screen setups, ranges, etc usually means I don't mind going first. And sure, if they get the double turn that would suck, but you have to try and prepare for that.. how you feel about the double turn is a whole other subject of course 😉. I find a lot of these armies with low drops are typically very CC heavy (granted their are outliers like Shootcast) and rely on getting to go 2nd.. this isn't one of those armies. I'm playing this in the same fashion as my Skaven magic lists in which it really doesn't matter whether or not I go 1st or 2nd, and that really throws some people for a loop.
 

I play skaven as well, as i'm sure you are aware. Skaven has more too it that lets you not care about going first or not. You start with 120 clan rats that are super durable and won't flee to battleshock for a lot of different reasons. 

I could go into warpseer, jezzalls at 30" range, plague monks at 280 pts for 40, 120 clan rats for 600pts, and near complete battle shock immunity. 

Anyway as i said you we don't have low drops and you need a list that can take going first or 2nd. Which i agree with and is kinda my point. You want to beable to take advantage of going first or second so you aren't caught back footed. 

 

[Gwendar]

@mmimzie I don't disagree that there's more in Skaven readily available to mitigate; I can't compare 3 VL's with a 4+\5++ against a few squishy 5 wound wizards; completely different playstyle. When I play fully magic Skaven lists, I'm not bringing those Jezzails, Monks, Fiends, etc... just around 100 Clanrats, which yeah, isn't the case here.

First, I've settled on a modified version of the previous list. I've considered quality over quantity and gone with 1x30 PG in every iteration I've made lately with 3x10 Ironbreakers as screens over the Handgunners. I've also decided to include 20 Shadow Warriors, 2 Mages, Incantor and BW\Comet\Portal. Now, this means I've narrowed down the remaining 300ish points to:

• Hurricanum; 6 drops, more ranged\magic damage and potentially (I know that's a small bubble to fit in 30 PG) +1 to hit aura for the PG. 
• Annointed Flame Phoenix; 7 drops, hero sniping ability with flyover though the Hurricanum can snipe hero's just as easily, PG support with BS immunity and rr wounds, and a 50% chance of getting your 300 point model back on death.

I'm just saying, I don't think outdropping is something you should always aim to do when you can mitigate it. What would your suggestions be for lowering drops and still being competitive in more than 1 aspect? 6 Wizards likely isn't a good choice.. you could run multiple big blocks of chaff\solid CC units but you're still potentially lacking mobility, board control, punchy or shooting units (if you want, 6 Wizards probably means you don't need to invest in shooting) but at that point you're right back up there in drop count. I could see getting down to 4 or 5 which is about the average nowadays... but I think you'll still be fine with 6-7 when there's a lot of armies running 8+ out there.

Also, why do you prefer the Luminark? I'm interested and totally willing to change my stance. Maybe there's something I'm not seeing.

[NinthMusketeer]

Some general thoughts, all IMO obviously:

-Big wizard with Ignax Scales is auto-take so they can use the command ability every turn, have a 4+ against the MWs suffered, then bubble out the +d6 to casting, which someone can then use to cast the heal d6 wounds spell on them if needed.

-The whitefire retinue is a matter of how much one wants an extra artifact & CP. For any other army it would be a great battalion, but Hallowheart is getting +d6 to casting rolls from its command ability anyways which reduces its usefulness. Do not mean to suggest that it is in any way bad, though.

-Nomad Prince as a general to get Sisters of the Thorn battleline seems like a good option. Thorn sisters in general seem exceptionally powerful for their point cost (for that cost I would use them even if they weren't a wizard) and with an extra cast from hallowheart they are pushed firmly into ridiculous territory.

-A Knight-Incantor to spam their warscroll spell plus whatever else seems auto-take.

-Lord-Arcanum on foot with his command ability to add to endless spell movement seems like a good way to add threat range.

-As Eaglsphan mentioned, longbeards to grumble away endless spells the same turn they are cast, or to get rid of one from a previous turn so it can be cast again.

-Endless spells of choice would be umbral spellportal, geminids, shackles, and lifeswarm. Spellportal is obvious, geminids are simply the best spell for MW spam even before the penalty comes into play, shackles are amazing once one realizes the true extent of their shenanigan potential, and lifeswarm for bringing phoenix guard back.

-As others have mentioned, phoenix guard are awesome for any city and Hallowheart really likes combining them with lifeswarm.

[mmimzie]

39 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

When I play fully magic Skaven lists, I'm not bringing those Jezzails, Monks, Fiends, etc... just around 100 Clanrats, which yeah, isn't the case here.

Warseers still have lots of range and skaven take ground fast. Even all skaven if you take the table your opponent knows it will be several turns before they reclaim those objectives due to battleshock immunity and sooo many models. Where as for us we have less bodies, less durability, and lower battleshock immunity. So us taking the table is us getting into potion to get swatted.

What we can do though is hit really hard with our turn 1. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Gwendar said:

Also, why do you prefer the Luminark? I'm interested and totally willing to change my stance. Maybe there's something I'm not seeing.

I suppose after you making me think about it i'm off team luminark, but i think i'm off team hurricanum, and maybe off team big thingy.  

Originally i liked the luminark because i liked that it had good range and could help you pick off characters as it has range to pretty much always hit a character you have down. I then after you brought it up liked the hurricanum because you could soul scream bridge it and get the job done with a bunch of shooting... units.... So then i realized that other list could use the thing a lot more effectively.  As the only thing hallow heart brings to the huricanum is +1 spell and it can be used to get your spells off. 

That said i prefer ignax scale on a little guy or to use your general to pass off wounds to a retinue. 

The other hurricanum give other bonus's like +1 to hit or cast. The casting bonus i don't rate as our command ability gets us high enough. The +1 to hit is nice, but other factions can do more with a good shooting unit that we can't. I'd rather take a self contained shooting unit that needs low or no help or a melee unit that has the same, than worry about a unit i'm overly concerned about buffing a lot in hollow heart. 

[Gwendar]

4 hours ago, mmimzie said:

Warseers still have lots of range and skaven take ground fast. Even all skaven if you take the table your opponent knows it will be several turns before they reclaim those objectives due to battleshock immunity and sooo many models. Where as for us we have less bodies, less durability, and lower battleshock immunity. So us taking the table is us getting into potion to get swatted.

What we can do though is hit really hard with our turn 1. 

All good points, they can't compare which I agree with. With my Skaven list, I have access to 2 Skitterleaps to get spells where I want them (and a SoJ Corruptor to bring some CC capability) and that just isn't available here. I think this is just another army who doesn't mind getting T1 to setup against a very powerful T2. Of course this will be a vulnerable army to heavy shooting, of which we are starting to see a lot of.

 

4 hours ago, mmimzie said:

I suppose after you making me think about it i'm off team luminark, but i think i'm off team hurricanum, and maybe off team big thingy.  

Originally i liked the luminark because i liked that it had good range and could help you pick off characters as it has range to pretty much always hit a character you have down. I then after you brought it up liked the hurricanum because you could soul scream bridge it and get the job done with a bunch of shooting... units.... So then i realized that other list could use the thing a lot more effectively.  As the only thing hallow heart brings to the huricanum is +1 spell and it can be used to get your spells off. 

That said i prefer ignax scale on a little guy or to use your general to pass off wounds to a retinue. 

The other hurricanum give other bonus's like +1 to hit or cast. The casting bonus i don't rate as our command ability gets us high enough. The +1 to hit is nice, but other factions can do more with a good shooting unit that we can't. I'd rather take a self contained shooting unit that needs low or no help or a melee unit that has the same, than worry about a unit i'm overly concerned about buffing a lot in hollow heart. 

And I really, really tried to fit a Bridge + Heavy shooting unit in here to go with a Hurricanum, but couldn't make it work without that being 1/4 of the list, which I didn't want. One reason I considered the Hurricanum so heavily is it's a prime candidate for the CA with it's large wound pool; not to mention it's generally okay with not getting the + to cast (remember it only effects other Wizards) since it's spells aren't as important. I wouldn't want to use it on an Mage, Incantor\Arcanum as I really want their stuff getting the +'s in comparison.

It's unfortunate the Hurricanum only gives a +1 to Collegiate Arcane units, but I saw it as a cool bonus but not something I would base it's inclusion on.. same with +1 to hit. The more we talk about it though, the more willing I am to go with a Phoenix over a Hurricanum.. I could also sub out the Ironbreakers for Darkshards and throw in a Sorceress to take the CA as she can still give herself +2 if needed. Many options, little time or money.

[zilberfrid]

On 10/10/2019 at 11:12 PM, Rune said:

I've given up on the battlemage on pegasus.

 

The amount of units I have at my disposal is pretty small. What do you guys think about this list? I'd like to hear your ideas before I go out and make the purchase.

Battlemage on Griffon - 300 points

Luminark of Hysh with mage - 270 points

Battlemage - 90 points

Knight-Incantor - 140 points

Freeguild General - 100 points (for hold the line)

 

40 Freeguild Guard - 260 points 

20 Freeguild Handgunners - 200

20 Freeguild Handgunners - 200

 

Battalion (Whitefire Retinue) - 140 points

 

Everblaze Comet - 100 points

Emerald Lifeswarm - 50 points

Umbral Spellportal - 70 points

Geminids of Uhl-Gysh - 60 points

There are other endless spells like the Balewind Vortex that I think could be great. Perhaps I should give them a second thought.

This list looks quite nice, maybe you could switch out 20 of the gunners to crossbows for more range and shots, keeping the handgunners for the rend and shooting when charged.

That could also reduce costs, any troops can be outfitted with crossbows from the handgunners sets, and it would even benefit clarity because they are more recognizable as different, and their sculpts are better.

[Dis_Interested]

Need list feedback.

I had a 1000 point battle last night against Daughters of Khaine. I had a fun time, but I lost pretty hard. The list is very under-optimised: for starters I don't as yet own any endless spells, so the Battalion was really just there to fill points, and I don't think was worth it.

 

Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
- City: Hallowheart
Mortal Realm: Aqshy

Leaders
Anointed (100)
- General
- Artefact: Whitefire Tome - Elemental Cyclone
Battlemage (90)
- Artefact: Ignax's Scales
- Mortal Realm: Hysh
Battlemage (90)
- Mortal Realm: Ghur
Battlemage (90)
- Mortal Realm: Ghyran

Battleline
10 x Phoenix Guard (160)
- City Role: Honoured Retinue (Must be 5-20 models)
10 x Phoenix Guard (160)

Units
10 x Sisters of the Watch (160)

Battalions
Whitefire Retinue (140)

Total: 990 / 1000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 50
 

So, now I need ideas on how exactly to expand this out to 1500/2000 points. Obviously endless spells is one thing to add (or use to replace the battalion). Really need more bodies though - perhaps Darkshards and a Sorceress? Maybe Longbeards for their endless spell shenanigans (assuming that doesn't get FAQ'd out)? 

[mmimzie]

3 hours ago, Dis_Interested said:

Need list feedback.

I had a 1000 point battle last night against Daughters of Khaine. I had a fun time, but I lost pretty hard. The list is very under-optimised: for starters I don't as yet own any endless spells, so the Battalion was really just there to fill points, and I don't think was worth it.

 

Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
- City: Hallowheart
Mortal Realm: Aqshy

Leaders
Anointed (100)
- General
- Artefact: Whitefire Tome - Elemental Cyclone
Battlemage (90)
- Artefact: Ignax's Scales
- Mortal Realm: Hysh
Battlemage (90)
- Mortal Realm: Ghur
Battlemage (90)
- Mortal Realm: Ghyran

Battleline
10 x Phoenix Guard (160)
- City Role: Honoured Retinue (Must be 5-20 models)
10 x Phoenix Guard (160)

Units
10 x Sisters of the Watch (160)

Battalions
Whitefire Retinue (140)

Total: 990 / 1000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 50
 

So, now I need ideas on how exactly to expand this out to 1500/2000 points. Obviously endless spells is one thing to add (or use to replace the battalion). Really need more bodies though - perhaps Darkshards and a Sorceress? Maybe Longbeards for their endless spell shenanigans (assuming that doesn't get FAQ'd out)? 

I think azyr battle made with bale window vortex is nearly just a must for our army.  He's the best thing we got and does a job so well. You've got the battle mage why not vortex it up. 

Whitefire tome isn't worth it. You don't become a wizard so no extra spell from command ability and no bonuses to cast. So throw that thing in the trash. I think if you bring the battalion you want agroxi prism or whatever. It will give you access to more durability from shooting. This won't help you against what you faces, but will make shooting less spooky. Otherwise as you say no need to take the battalion.

Currently, i'm a big fan of dark shards, quick if you need them to be. Lets the Sorc get casting bonuses with out having to use command ability, letting her either go off on her own or letting he be effective with out needing to CP out anything. The -1 to hit on her can be pretty good if you have a squishy hammer running around, along side the hysh buff can make that unit really annoying to deal with.

The main thing you need to consider is what are your wizards doing?? Are they buffing a big DPS unit or are they killing key enemy pieces??  As this is what they do best. 

Cyclone exist and can cut a witch aelf unit in half (sorta <.<), but it's a lot to set up either needed a sportal in range or to be dangerously close to witch aelves. That said after your cyclone what is gonna kill the rest, and 20 witches will still kill a lot of what we can bring, such as your 10 pheonix guard. I think MSU shooting is out best back up with maybe 1 hammer unit such as a pheonix/morrsarr guard (allys)/black guard/greatsword/etc. The flame phoenix  and morrsarr guard are my favorite as they can do entry mortal wounds letting you skirt around enemies that attack before you do and both can fly and move quickly so they can hide well behind your MSU. Black guard are my 2nd favorite as they can go super fast and charge from long distance with wild form + instrument and pack a much large potential punch than morrsarr guard can.  

The MSU shooting i like because why do you want a unit that can take a punch??  Sequitors who can take a real punch aren't as potent outside of storm cast battalion and need lots of supply to become relavent.  Pheonix guard are durable but if you do the math freeguild are just as durable in just about every situation outside of healing from life swarm, and even then are squishier than clan rats for the point and much squishier than sequitors. MSU shooting lets you have layers of shooting that have to die 1 at a time, maybe 2 at a time  before the layers underneath can be taken out. While also providing you with extra damage to finish off targets weakend by your wizards or support your heavy hitting hammers. 

There are other options than what i laid out, but i'm just going off the units that currently interest me personally, which is to say they aren't necessarily the best options and stuff like sister of the watch/shadow warriors/irondrake/etc might also have merit.
 

 

15 hours ago, Gwendar said:

All good points, they can't compare which I agree with. With my Skaven list, I have access to 2 Skitterleaps to get spells where I want them (and a SoJ Corruptor to bring some CC capability) and that just isn't available here. I think this is just another army who doesn't mind getting T1 to setup against a very powerful T2. Of course this will be a vulnerable army to heavy shooting, of which we are starting to see a lot of.

 

And I really, really tried to fit a Bridge + Heavy shooting unit in here to go with a Hurricanum, but couldn't make it work without that being 1/4 of the list, which I didn't want. One reason I considered the Hurricanum so heavily is it's a prime candidate for the CA with it's large wound pool; not to mention it's generally okay with not getting the + to cast (remember it only effects other Wizards) since it's spells aren't as important. I wouldn't want to use it on an Mage, Incantor\Arcanum as I really want their stuff getting the +'s in comparison.

It's unfortunate the Hurricanum only gives a +1 to Collegiate Arcane units, but I saw it as a cool bonus but not something I would base it's inclusion on.. same with +1 to hit. The more we talk about it though, the more willing I am to go with a Phoenix over a Hurricanum.. I could also sub out the Ironbreakers for Darkshards and throw in a Sorceress to take the CA as she can still give herself +2 if needed. Many options, little time or money.

Well so them the hurricanum is like bringing a mage you don't really wanna cast with right?? which is kinda killing some of the usefulness on the model in the army more so than the cut in usefulness of the +1 to cast/hit, kinda dumbing the model down to it's 3d3 mortal (which isn't a joke, just limited range) and  endless spell dispel. 

The phoenix doesn't work as a target for the command ability because he doesn't become a wizard from the artifact. I'm sure you knew this as you weren't really even imply you were gonna use it for that.

I think a sorc general is great at using the command ability. Early on she can eat a darkshard for +2 to cast if you want her providing spell support. Her retinue can  way more than average soak even a 5 or 6 roll and keep her from dying. Lasting she can be given the command ability of famed spell hunter to let her spend most of the game eating endless spell for resume or whatever, so buffing her doesn't matter.  She is also abit more durable with access to that retinue if you wanted to keep her around, and if you wanted to pay for the battalion you could get the prism to give her amazing protection against shooting as she'd be taking like only 25% damage from shooting in most cases.  Her retinue can be murdered and leaving her not super useful, but maybe that's alright as your wizards might live. 

I say battalion because the auto take artifact, in my mind, is ignax scales because it turns another mage on to be the command ability target. Again eating  taking the mortal wounds, but doesn't cost you models to keep around. 

I think between both of those, and if your afraid of shooting the prism you can be sure to have your bonuses to cast up at least in the early turns in the game.

Edited October 13, 2019 by mmimzie

[Dis_Interested]

7 hours ago, mmimzie said:

I think azyr battle made with bale window vortex is nearly just a must for our army.  He's the best thing we got and does a job so well. You've got the battle mage why not vortex it up. 

Whitefire tome isn't worth it. You don't become a wizard so no extra spell from command ability and no bonuses to cast. So throw that thing in the trash. I think if you bring the battalion you want agroxi prism or whatever. It will give you access to more durability from shooting. This won't help you against what you faces, but will make shooting less spooky. Otherwise as you say no need to take the battalion.

Currently, i'm a big fan of dark shards, quick if you need them to be. Lets the Sorc get casting bonuses with out having to use command ability, letting her either go off on her own or letting he be effective with out needing to CP out anything. The -1 to hit on her can be pretty good if you have a squishy hammer running around, along side the hysh buff can make that unit really annoying to deal with.

The main thing you need to consider is what are your wizards doing?? Are they buffing a big DPS unit or are they killing key enemy pieces??  As this is what they do best. 

Cyclone exist and can cut a witch aelf unit in half (sorta <.<), but it's a lot to set up either needed a sportal in range or to be dangerously close to witch aelves. That said after your cyclone what is gonna kill the rest, and 20 witches will still kill a lot of what we can bring, such as your 10 pheonix guard. I think MSU shooting is out best back up with maybe 1 hammer unit such as a pheonix/morrsarr guard (allys)/black guard/greatsword/etc. The flame phoenix  and morrsarr guard are my favorite as they can do entry mortal wounds letting you skirt around enemies that attack before you do and both can fly and move quickly so they can hide well behind your MSU. Black guard are my 2nd favorite as they can go super fast and charge from long distance with wild form + instrument and pack a much large potential punch than morrsarr guard can.  

The MSU shooting i like because why do you want a unit that can take a punch??  Sequitors who can take a real punch aren't as potent outside of storm cast battalion and need lots of supply to become relavent.  Pheonix guard are durable but if you do the math freeguild are just as durable in just about every situation outside of healing from life swarm, and even then are squishier than clan rats for the point and much squishier than sequitors. MSU shooting lets you have layers of shooting that have to die 1 at a time, maybe 2 at a time  before the layers underneath can be taken out. While also providing you with extra damage to finish off targets weakend by your wizards or support your heavy hitting hammers. 

There are other options than what i laid out, but i'm just going off the units that currently interest me personally, which is to say they aren't necessarily the best options and stuff like sister of the watch/shadow warriors/irondrake/etc might also have merit.
 

A re-work, or rather, a plan to use the above list as the basis of a bigger one (prefaced with - yes, I know I won't even be able to get all of the spells on the board turn 1 - it's to fill points/give options):

 

Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
- City: Hallowheart
Mortal Realm: Aqshy

Leaders
Anointed (100)
- General
Battlemage (90)
- City Role: General's Adjutant (Must be 6 wounds or less)
- Mortal Realm: Ghur
Battlemage (90)
- Mortal Realm: Azyr
Battlemage (90)
- Artefact: Ignax's Scales
- Mortal Realm: Hysh
Battlemage (90)
- Mortal Realm: Ghyran
Sorceress (90)

Battleline
20 x Phoenix Guard (320)
- City Role: Honoured Retinue (Must be 5-20 models)
10 x Longbeards (110)
- Ancestral Weapons & Shields
20 x Darkshards (200)

Units
20 x Sisters of the Watch (320)
5 x Sisters of the Thorn (130)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Balewind Vortex (40)
Emerald Lifeswarm (50)
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (60)
Soulscream Bridge (80)
Soulsnare Shackles (40)
Umbral Spellportal (70)
The Burning Head (30)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 110
 

[Gwendar]

@mmimzie Right, which is why I've considered dropping it as a Sorceress does it just fine with Ignax.. though I still anticipate the fact you can negate the MW's and keep the bonus to get FAQ'd, which will heavily impact HH in genera.; At that point you really will need something like a Luminark\Hurricanum\Black Dragon Sorceress to take those wounds. I think that's really what we all need to wait for as it was likely drastically change list comps; no one wants to risk 1-shotting their own 5 wound wizard.

Anyway, I like the MSU shooting aspect, but my head always wants to go with 1 big unit like Irondrakes + Bridge and that's a lot of points. As far as MSU shooting goes, I definitely agree with going Darkshards or Handgunners, added benefit of Handgunners is overwatch + chip hero damage from long rifles but being more static. I think regardless I'm going to be throwing in 10-20 Shadow Warriors and 20-30 PG; 300 points worth of Phoenix is still up in the air. I think I'll have a talk with some local resources and theory it out a little more. Upcoming tournaments will be good to watch out for. I have my TE Blitzkrieg list that I'm building first anyway so I have time 😉

[mmimzie]

I think even if they do FAQ it do you really need +6 to cast? +4 to cast is enough to make for a great spell phase and is more than you can hope for on your average roll and is more of a cast bonus than any other army.  Not to mention you still have a bunch of two cast wizards.  Reguardless i don't really think it's gonna be FAQd simply because the most likely way you'd mitigate the damage is given to you as a major feature in the book in retinues. So seems like that combo is put in there on purpose? 

PG is so weird to me i hate having to take an anoited or a phoenix more so forcing them to be the general and taking away access to famed spell hunter, retinue, and the bonus CP per turn.  I might take a 10 man squad of liberators as retinue. 

But it will be interesting to see what folks take in the cities there is a lot of meat on the bone there and several list that look pretty good. 

@Dis_Interested Lacks a punch melee unit. If you are gonna go Phoenix Guard you should definitely take a phoenix. It'll give you a unit that has teeth and with out being a tax on your list. It would also justify the emerald life swarm more. 

I don't know that you have enough shooting to warent a bridge.  You could turn all those sisters of the watch into shadow warriors along with droping the screaming birdge. You'll do a bit less damage but for a nice extra 70pts in your pocket. That combine with the droping the shackles as well could let you take a 4th shadow warrior squad. Then your cooking. 

Either way it's shaping up. 

[KK9T]

I'm thinking about this for a 1000pt list. Thoughts on which spells to give to the Sisters? Perhaps there are better choices for endless spells as well.

[Gwendar]

29 minutes ago, mmimzie said:

I think even if they do FAQ it do you really need +6 to cast? +4 to cast is enough to make for a great spell phase and is more than you can hope for on your average roll and is more of a cast bonus than any other army.  Not to mention you still have a bunch of two cast wizards.  Reguardless i don't really think it's gonna be FAQd simply because the most likely way you'd mitigate the damage is given to you as a major feature in the book in retinues. So seems like that combo is put in there on purpose? 

PG is so weird to me i hate having to take an anoited or a phoenix more so forcing them to be the general and taking away access to famed spell hunter, retinue, and the bonus CP per turn.  I might take a 10 man squad of liberators as retinue. 

But it will be interesting to see what folks take in the cities there is a lot of meat on the bone there and several list that look pretty good. 

But what I mean is that I imagine the wording could get changed to something along the lines of 'these wounds cannot be negated' rather than 'any wounds not allocated do not grant bonus' which would mean if you roll a 5 you just killed your Wizard and now you get no bonus. But yeah, I suppose the retinue system could be the counter to that argument. Who knows... with everyone getting such crazy power creep lately, it isn't a big deal. I'm sure Tzeentch, Seraphon (Slaan\Kroak specifically) and an updated Nagash will be on par\better anyway.

Hell... I might even experiment with Living as well at some point, but TE is proving to be a go-to for me personally. I think I like my magic list with Skaven so much that having another one at this point in time is... not on my highest priority 😉

[mmimzie]

Well so i wouldn't call it power creap because beside slannesh nothing else is really over preforming and stuff like stormcast eternals are still hanging out in top tables. 

As you and i have said Hallow heart isn't even broken due to spells it has access too, the rise of shooting, and the lack of a big punchy unit that is hallow heart specific. If you ask me Hallow heart is in line with the current state of the game. Sure it has super powerful wizards, but the counter to wizards has never been trying to unbind all thier spells, it's always been kill the wizard.  Thats what made nagash good was that nagash was soooooo hard to kill and had powerful spell. The +3 to cast just made his spell more reliable.